And none of those fictitious reasons have been given by you.

Capiche?

Why are you reverting to Spanish? In English, we use the word "understand".



OMG..

This is a classic...

m

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:52:18 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 11:11:16 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 15:35:18 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 8:58:25 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:55:33 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 4:06:55 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:57:24 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 1:00:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:43:13 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:12:53 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:53:00 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:58:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no longer be charged at a high rate.


Go find a description of the voltage regulator/alternator and/or a
schematic for that car.

No idea where to find that.

Give us the references. If something is telling
the VR/alternator what voltage to target, then there must be an additional
wire or connection of some kind.

Agreed. And it could well have a sensor in the fusebox etc.

I have not seen that. The other possibilities
are that the VR itself lowers the target voltage, based on? Makes no sense
and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I just googled for VR and looked
at half a dozen references, all just say the VR targets a specific voltage
period. The other possibility is that when you read the voltage later,
some other load is present that is lowering the system voltage that you see.

No, all I did was to start the car when the battery was almost full. The battery terminal voltage was immediately 14.4V. 20 minutes later it dropped to 13.8V. I added no loads.

Just because YOU

It's rude to shout. You didn't need to emphasize that word.

How about go **** yourself then?

Are you trying to stoop to Rod's level?

You;re his butt buddy, you're the one here defending him, now you
say that?

Why do you think it has to be one or the other? He's irritating and I've killfiled him a few times, but he's the only one who answered my question in this thread.

He answered it with speculation stated as fact.

He gave a plausible answer

But then you joined him when you eschewed references for claims, so you two can wallow in your own BS.

I proved he was correct by testing my own car.

added no loads doesn't mean the loads in the car are not changing.

And what would these imaginary loads be?

You're clearly clueless about the complexity of modern cars and
all the electrical loads.

Which don't change when it's sat idling in the driveway. Certainly not enough to overload an alternator.

Again, another diversion and obfuscation. I didn't say anything about
overloading anything. I simply said that the voltage changing at the
battery could be loads in the car changing.

The voltage is fixed by the alternator unless it's overloaded and can't provide the charging voltage.

No **** Sherlock. Any other unnecessary obfuscation you want to add in?
You were asking about how an alternator normally charges a battery.

Just up there, you repeated "I simply said that the voltage changing at the battery could be loads in the car changing."

I refuted that by saying the alternator fixes the voltage.

It fixes it, keeps it close to a target voltage, that doesn't mean
that the voltage can't change by a fraction of a volt due to loads.

Mine changed from 14.4 to 13.8. That would not happen with a regulated alternator just due to loads.

Not too bright are you?

A lot brighter than you, who prefers the flapping gums of Rod the troll
and dismisses references as unnecessary.

Not my fault I don't have OCD.

I think it actually dropped gradually if that means anything. I actually did that test because someone in one of these groups (although some troll has deleted half the groups, so I've added them back in AGAIN) told me that a car alternator changes voltage, this was in a post 6 months ago.

Given that it's typically a dumb, passive component device, that seems
unlikely. And if it's true, then there should be plenty of discussion
about it at online resources, yet so far, neither you nor Rod can
produce anything.

Why can't you believe the ECU monitors the battery?

I didn't say I can't believe it,

You've dismissed Rod's claim adamantly several times.

I said his claim that they use the resistance of the battery cable
to measure current flow is highly doubtful for obvious reasons.
Someone else had to explain that to you.

Nobody has explained it. A wire has resistance, it has a voltage drop, very easy to measure.

As I and the the other poster told you, try using Ohm's Law.

Which is precisely what is used to measure the current in a wire by voltage drop.

Again, run the numbers, ****wit.

Ok, I'll "run the numbers" which I assume is American for "do the calculations":
Here's some typical battery cables:
https://www.electricalcarservices.co...-p-0-0-168-269
I'll take the second cheapest - 25mm^2.
Let's assume we can measure the voltage at two points along the cable 1 metre apart.
The resistance of this cable is 0.727mohms per metre, or in this case, 0.727mohms. https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/5.3.6.htm
The voltage drop if 20 amps is being drawn would be 0.01454 volts, easily measurable.

I said if it's so, then show us the references.

You're the opposite of a religious nut, you need everything proved. Grow up.

Go **** yourself. It's quite obvious you're beyond clueless.

You have not explained how my car behaves, Rod has. You lose.

A fairy from Mars caused the change you saw. No need for references.
Now I've explained it too. See how that works?

I can tell when someone is making **** up. Unfortunately 50% of the population can't so still believes in god.

Sure you can, ROFL.

You dismiss Trump, that makes you as stupid as the Jews.

I gave you a long list of things Rod "explained" here, all BS and wrong.

I'm not interested in your stalking.

So, why are you still here? Rod gave you his BS answer, you accepted it.

To prove you're a fool. Seems Rod can't be bothered with you. Maybe he has less patience than me.

And I said if they do it, I doubt they do it via using
the resistance of the battery cable, which is what Rod claimed.

Why do you doubt this? It's the easiest thing to do. What voltage drop do you think you can get off one of those cables, considering the high amperages involved?

Why are you adamant about this, when you have ZERO to show that it's
done? There are obvious reasons why it;s not likely. Try Ohms's Law.

Ohm's law (which I've just spelled correctly, there is no Mr Ohms) is precisely why it works. If you connect a 12V source at one end of a thick cable, and run a 50 amp load at the other end, you'll only get 11.5V at the other end. I know, I've installed 6kW car stereos. Voltage drop is a problem, especially on the peak of the amp's consumption with music which has loud beats.

Again, one more time, do the numbers for a battery cable, you might
learn something, but in your case, it's highly doubtful.

I have a cheap multimeter here that can detect 1mV....

Again, if you just applied Ohm's LAw, you'd see that resolution isn't
sufficient, ****wit. And even if it was, how logical is it to try
to measure down to a milivolt in a car? A car where loads are constantly
switching? When either you or Rod have a reference that says auto
manufacturers use the battery cable resistance to measure voltage,
let us know. Until then, **** off. BTW, still can't trim posts?

You can trim too can't you? Why don't you do it yourself?

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:33:12 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 7:22 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:45:08 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator or
charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to
charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat
battery and power any connected loads. If the battery had no loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full,
but the
voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored the current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

That was my original question - on an old car, there is no way for the
regulator to tell the difference between the battery still charging at
10 amps and the headlamps being switched on.

The regulator doesn't care. It's the voltage that matters. Whatever
*total* load there is, the voltage will change accordingly and the
current output will adjust. Ohms law will ensure an appropriate current
flow through the battery and the lights.

Fine if you want to always charge the battery at a certain voltage. But a decent charger will charge at 14.4V then drop to 13.8V float. This requires it to know the battery charging current.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine..

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent discussing
whether they charged fine or not, we are discussing what the
regulator does when the battery is fully charged so that it doesnt
boil off the water in the battery. Thats particularly important
now that most car batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

Modern batteries are more resilient actually.

Actually less unless you want to pay for new technology like EFB or AGM.

I remember old batteries that would die if you ran them totally flat twice. Nowadays that's more like 50 times.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:26:22 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:55 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:44:15 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 3:06:28 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news It would have to monitor the current going into the battery, by
having at
least two ammeters,

Just two cables from the battery positive terminal, one to the
alternator
and one
to the rest of the electrical system and measure the voltage drop over
those.

or have all the positive wires join somewhere

They do, the positive terminal of the battery.

and measure the branch off to the battery.

Just subtract the current to the rest of the electrical system
from the current going from the alternator to the battery
terminal. That gives you the current going into the battery.

When you have an actual credible cite that describes this alleged
system, post it. Until then, all you are doing is making crap up on
the fly.

I can believe him, I've observed my car's alternator change from 14.4V
to 13.8V after it's been running for a bit, so it must know the battery
is full.

Like claiming that all cars have more than one wire to the battery
positive terminal.

I've never seen one that doesn't. Usually I see one for the alternator,
one for the starter, and one for everything else. Why would you have
only one? These are high currents, best to connect things directly.

The starter cable is irrelevant in this equation since there will be *no
current flowing* unless the starter is operating. If the starter is
operating, then there will minimal output from the alternator so, in
that situation, the alternator is irrelevant. So, it the engine is
running and the battery is fully charged, the *battery* is, for all
intents and purposes irrelevant since alternator current will, for the
most part, be flowing from B+ on the alternator, bypassing the battery
and flowing to those loads that require it. The alternator is, in
effect, wired in parallel with the battery.

I guess it depends on the physical position of the main components. In every car I've had (about 10 of various makes), the alternator, starter, and main fusebox are nowhere near each other, so there would be no point in using the same cable for more than one of them. The best idea is to have the shortest run from the battery to each of them, that way you lose less voltage.

Or that cars use the resistance of the large gage cable to measure
current. You just pulled that one from your ass, it's rather unlikely
for some obvious reasons. But hey, you claim that's how it's done,
provide some references.......

I do hate it when people say "for obvious reasons" - they are never
obvious to anyone else.

That is precisely how you measure current, by a voltage drop across a
known resistance.

Correction, that is how you *calculate current*. The issue is that you
need to *know* the resistance.

I'm quite sure the designer of the car knows what wire was used.

An ammeter will measure current directly by being placed *in the
circuit*, with or without a shunt resistor.

And they certainly don't want to add more resistance
to something trying to carry 100s of amps.

Ammeters have extremely low resistances so have minimal effect on a
circuit, especially general automotive ones. If you need to measure a
higher current than the meter is capable of handling, you use a shunt.

Or a known resistance already in the circuit, like the feed wire.

I guess they could also use
an amp clamp, but that would cost more.

Amp clamps are cheap. Have a pro one here somewhere.

How much did it cost? Now think of that price being added to a car. And bear in mind it has to be able to report the readings to the ECU.

Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle. Obviously they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be very useful to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town driving, or driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.


On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:07:14 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
current at engine idle speed. I'm sure my friend got his to give out
pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine. He was
powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:00:34 +0100, Brian Gaff
wrote:

Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in
the old
bangers.
Normally the output will change due to engine speed, but in alternators
there is a voltage regulator inbuilt to keep the thing pretty
nominal and
of course the thing that then suffers is the charging rate, ie its
going to
be be slower when its not running very fast. I think if a battery dips
below
about 11v outside of starter transients, you have to charge it or get
a new
one. This very accurate sensing these days can often mask a battery
on its
last legs though, as people tend to ignore warnings if the car still
works,
then they leave it a couple of days and it won't start!

Brian

Xeno wrote on 22/06/2019 9:03 PM:
On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and

A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.

On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.

Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were
to be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage?? Or does it vary
from one manufacturer to another??


--
Daniel

On 11/07/2019 10:09, Daniel60 wrote:
Xeno wrote on 22/06/2019 9:03 PM:
On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and

A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.

On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.

Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were
to be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage?? Or does it vary
from one manufacturer to another??


There would be no reason to have a standard voltage - standard charge
voltage, yes. 230 single phase or 400 three phase (same thing)

A far as battery voltages go - looking at say 200bhp (around 260Kw) is
around 660A at 400V.

which is still a lot of amps. I'd say the ideal is probably near the
limit of *cheap* semiconductor power FETS probably around 1kv or so.

I am a long time out of that field though, so it may be higher.

What I am fairly sure of however is that battery voltage will be decided
by cost of using that particular voltage and that will be down to what
semiconductors are available.

Should the market develop towards standardised batteries that could be
replaced by a local kwikfit etc, then I am sure manufacturers would
develop a common standard.


--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

On 11/7/19 4:50 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:26:22 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:55 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:44:15 +0100, trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 3:06:28 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news It would have to monitor the current going into the battery, by
having at
least two ammeters,

Just two cables from the battery positive terminal, one to the
alternator
and one
to the rest of the electrical system and measure the voltage drop over
those.

or have all the positive wires join somewhere

They do, the positive terminal of the battery.

and measure the branch off to the battery.

Just subtract the current to the rest of the electrical system
from the current going from the alternator to the battery
terminal. That gives you the current going into the battery.

When you have an actual credible cite that describes this alleged
system, post it. Until then, all you are doing is making crap up on
the fly.

I can believe him, I've observed my car's alternator change from 14.4V
to 13.8V after it's been running for a bit, so it must know the battery
is full.

Like claiming that all cars have more than one wire to the battery
positive terminal.

I've never seen one that doesn't.* Usually I see one for the alternator,
one for the starter, and one for everything else.* Why would you have
only one?* These are high currents, best to connect things directly.

The starter cable is irrelevant in this equation since there will be *no
current flowing* unless the starter is operating. If the starter is
operating, then there will minimal output from the alternator so, in
that situation, the alternator is irrelevant. So, it the engine is
running and the battery is fully charged, the *battery* is, for all
intents and purposes irrelevant since alternator current will, for the
most part, be flowing from B+ on the alternator, bypassing the battery
and flowing to those loads that require it. The alternator is, in
effect, wired in parallel with the battery.

I guess it depends on the physical position of the main components.* In
every car I've had (about 10 of various makes), the alternator, starter,
and main fusebox are nowhere near each other, so there would be no point
in using the same cable for more than one of them.* The best idea is to
have the shortest run from the battery to each of them, that way you
lose less voltage.

Or that cars use the resistance of the large gage cable to measure
current. You just pulled that one from your ass, it's rather unlikely
for some* obvious reasons.* But hey, you claim that's how it's done,
provide some references.......

I do hate it when people say "for obvious reasons" - they are never
obvious to anyone else.

That is precisely how you measure current, by a voltage drop across a
known resistance.

Correction, that is how you *calculate current*. The issue is that you
need to *know* the resistance.

I'm quite sure the designer of the car knows what wire was used.

An ammeter will measure current directly by being placed *in the
circuit*, with or without a shunt resistor.

And they certainly don't want to add more resistance
to something trying to carry 100s of amps.

Ammeters have extremely low resistances so have minimal effect on a
circuit, especially general automotive ones. If you need to measure a
higher current than the meter is capable of handling, you use a shunt.

Or a known resistance already in the circuit, like the feed wire.

I guess they could also use
an amp clamp, but that would cost more.

Amp clamps are cheap. Have a pro one here somewhere.

How much did it cost?* Now think of that price being added to a car.
And bear in mind it has to be able to report the readings to the ECU.

My Toyota has the *equivalent*.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 11/7/19 5:11 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle.* Obviously
they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be very useful
to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town driving, or
driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.

You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.



On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:07:14 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
current at engine idle speed.* I'm sure my friend got his to give out
pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine.* He was
powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:00:34 +0100, Brian Gaff
wrote:

Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in
the old
bangers.
*Normally the output will change due to engine speed, but* in
alternators
there is a voltage regulator inbuilt to keep the* thing pretty
nominal and
of course the thing that then suffers is the charging rate, ie its
going to
be be slower when its not running very fast. I think if a battery dips
below
about 11v outside of starter transients, you have to charge it or get
a new
one. This* very accurate sensing these days can often mask a battery
on its
last legs though, as people tend to ignore* warnings if the car still
works,
then they leave it a couple of days and it won't start!

Brian



--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 11/7/19 7:09 pm, Daniel60 wrote:
Xeno wrote on 22/06/2019 9:03 PM:
On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and

A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.

On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.

Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were
to be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage?? Or does it vary
from one manufacturer to another??


It varies. Anything up to 600 volts DC seems to be the norm at present.
BEVs have a regulator to drop those very high voltages down to whatever
voltage the ancillaries require - between 12V and 48V typically.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:47:33 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 11/7/19 5:11 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle. Obviously
they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be very useful
to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town driving, or
driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.

You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.

A flat battery at a high voltage means there's a high current.

And will you please stop mixing up top and bottom posting. I top posted because I was replying to a blind user who had done the same.


On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:07:14 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
current at engine idle speed. I'm sure my friend got his to give out
pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine. He was
powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:00:34 +0100, Brian Gaff
wrote:

Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in
the old
bangers.
Normally the output will change due to engine speed, but in
alternators
there is a voltage regulator inbuilt to keep the thing pretty
nominal and
of course the thing that then suffers is the charging rate, ie its
going to
be be slower when its not running very fast. I think if a battery dips
below
about 11v outside of starter transients, you have to charge it or get
a new
one. This very accurate sensing these days can often mask a battery
on its
last legs though, as people tend to ignore warnings if the car still
works,
then they leave it a couple of days and it won't start!

Brian

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:47:33 +1000, Xeno, another brainless, troll-feeding,
senile Australian idiot, blathered:



You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.

What we see is you AUSTRALIAN senile ASSHOLE taking every single bait the
Scottish ****** sets out for you! Just HOW senile are you, idiot?

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:44:13 +1000, Xeno, another brainless, troll-feeding,
senile Australian idiot, blathered:


How much did it cost?* Now think of that price being added to a car.
And bear in mind it has to be able to report the readings to the ECU.

My Toyota has the *equivalent*.

That Scottish asshole troll can ALWAYS rely on one of you senile Australian
prize idiots to come running along and feed him, time and again, eh, senile
Australian sucker of troll cock? BG

"Daniel60" wrote in message
...
Xeno wrote on 22/06/2019 9:03 PM:
On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and

A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.

On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.

Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were to
be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage??

Nope.

Or does it vary from one manufacturer to another??

And from one model to another too.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:44:13 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 11/7/19 4:50 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:26:22 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:55 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:44:15 +0100, trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 3:06:28 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news It would have to monitor the current going into the battery, by
having at
least two ammeters,

Just two cables from the battery positive terminal, one to the
alternator
and one
to the rest of the electrical system and measure the voltage drop over
those.

or have all the positive wires join somewhere

They do, the positive terminal of the battery.

and measure the branch off to the battery.

Just subtract the current to the rest of the electrical system
from the current going from the alternator to the battery
terminal. That gives you the current going into the battery.

When you have an actual credible cite that describes this alleged
system, post it. Until then, all you are doing is making crap up on
the fly.

I can believe him, I've observed my car's alternator change from 14.4V
to 13.8V after it's been running for a bit, so it must know the battery
is full.

Like claiming that all cars have more than one wire to the battery
positive terminal.

I've never seen one that doesn't. Usually I see one for the alternator,
one for the starter, and one for everything else. Why would you have
only one? These are high currents, best to connect things directly.

The starter cable is irrelevant in this equation since there will be *no
current flowing* unless the starter is operating. If the starter is
operating, then there will minimal output from the alternator so, in
that situation, the alternator is irrelevant. So, it the engine is
running and the battery is fully charged, the *battery* is, for all
intents and purposes irrelevant since alternator current will, for the
most part, be flowing from B+ on the alternator, bypassing the battery
and flowing to those loads that require it. The alternator is, in
effect, wired in parallel with the battery.

I guess it depends on the physical position of the main components. In
every car I've had (about 10 of various makes), the alternator, starter,
and main fusebox are nowhere near each other, so there would be no point
in using the same cable for more than one of them. The best idea is to
have the shortest run from the battery to each of them, that way you
lose less voltage.

Or that cars use the resistance of the large gage cable to measure
current. You just pulled that one from your ass, it's rather unlikely
for some obvious reasons. But hey, you claim that's how it's done,
provide some references.......

I do hate it when people say "for obvious reasons" - they are never
obvious to anyone else.

That is precisely how you measure current, by a voltage drop across a
known resistance.

Correction, that is how you *calculate current*. The issue is that you
need to *know* the resistance.

I'm quite sure the designer of the car knows what wire was used.

An ammeter will measure current directly by being placed *in the
circuit*, with or without a shunt resistor.

And they certainly don't want to add more resistance
to something trying to carry 100s of amps.

Ammeters have extremely low resistances so have minimal effect on a
circuit, especially general automotive ones. If you need to measure a
higher current than the meter is capable of handling, you use a shunt.

Or a known resistance already in the circuit, like the feed wire.

I guess they could also use
an amp clamp, but that would cost more.

Amp clamps are cheap. Have a pro one here somewhere.

How much did it cost? Now think of that price being added to a car.
And bear in mind it has to be able to report the readings to the ECU.

My Toyota has the *equivalent*.

No wonder companies like Dacia are making cars at half the price, without all that stuff you don't really need. And if they were allowed to not bother with all that safety **** like airbags, they'd cost even less.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:06:02 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:45 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:06:16 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 15:28:21 +0100, trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator or
charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially,
to charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing the charger can give out enough current to charge the
slightly flat battery and power any connected loads. If the battery
had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current when it
became
full, but the voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored
the current it was providing, how does it know if the battery is
still
charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp
load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery and the
rest of the car are tied to one point and there is no monitor
for what current is going to the battery vs to the car load.
And Rod is talking computers,
so how did cars work prior to the 80s? They didn't have a computer
didn't monitor anything other than the voltage regulator maintained
a constant voltage of ~14v while the car was running. It was that
way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,
but it's not necessary to keeping the battery charged.

I doubt it saves much energy. Charging a lead acid at 13.8 to 14.4V
continuously, wastes **** all power. More likely it can charge at a
higher voltage to begin with to make the battery full quickly, then pull
back to trickle when needed. Handy if you make a habit of using a
lot of
accessories like lights when the engine is off then need it charged
quickly when you drive for 10 minutes. Or if like me you drive for 100
yards at a time and are using the starter a lot (or have one of those
stop
start engines). Older cars would run out of battery if you did lots of
short journeys, as there was no fast charge.

There is nothing they can do about the load so they don't give a ****
about the
lights. The regulator just watches alternator current and cranks up
the voltage to keep it up.

That's rather bizarre. The alternator monitors current? So, what's
the correct current that it's targeting? 2 amps, 20 amps? 70 amps?
The current depends on what loads are on and the alternator doesn't
know that. Seems to me it keeps the system VOLTAGE at ~14V and that
has worked for 100 years.

It would have to monitor the current going into the battery, by
having at
least two ammeters,

Just two cables from the battery positive terminal, one to the alternator
and one
to the rest of the electrical system and measure the voltage drop over
those.

or have all the positive wires join somewhere

They do, the positive terminal of the battery.

and measure the branch off to the battery.

Just subtract the current to the rest of the electrical system
from the current going from the alternator to the battery
terminal. That gives you the current going into the battery.

Maybe they do that now. But that doesn't help me charging my battery at
night with a seperate power supply. I'll just leave it at 13.8V, I
don't need a fast charge, I just need it to remain charged as it's full
when I get home. No matter what the load, if the terminals of the
battery are kept at 13.8V, it should remain full.

If the voltage at the charger doesn't get *above* 13.8V, that's telling
you your battery is developing a *high internal resistance*.

If it's set to 13.8, it won't get above it no matter what battery I connect.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:03:33 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very very
old
indeed. I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up. It's currently maxing out my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming power overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps (randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a meter when all the fuses are pulled. The alarm (to stop theives) cannot be disabled with a fuse. To remove the alarm or replace it involves dismantling pretty much the entire front of the car.

On 7/11/19 4:24 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice.Â* It's consuming power overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps (randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a meter when all the fuses are pulled.Â*
The alarm (to stop theives) cannot be disabled with a fuse.Â* To remove the alarm or replace it involves dismantling pretty much the entire front of the car.

After several false alarms at 3am, I took mine to the dealer and had them disable it. Might have been an hour labor charge.

Probably could have disconnected the battery and pulled the fuses and traced it out with a signal injector but that thought didn't really appeal to me so I threw some money at it.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 21:56:27 +0100, David Lidington wrote:

On 7/11/19 4:24 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming power overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps (randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a meter when all the fuses are pulled.The alarm (to stop theives) cannot be disabled with a fuse. To remove the alarm or replace it involves dismantling pretty much the entire front of the car.

After several false alarms at 3am, I took mine to the dealer and had them disable it. Might have been an hour labor charge.

Probably could have disconnected the battery and pulled the fuses and traced it out with a signal injector but that thought didn't really appeal to me so I threw some money at it.

It might depend on the car, but I was told (either for this one or the Golf I had two cars ago with the same problem) that an entire dashboard dismantling would be needed, a whole day's work for a garage. Although when I had a Ford Mondeo 17 years ago, the AA disabled the alarm (which was preventing me using the car and disturbing the neighbours) by simply cutting (believe it or not) the red wire (!) under the steering wheel.

On 11/07/2019 14:47, Xeno wrote:
On 11/7/19 5:11 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle.
Obviously they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be
very useful to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town
driving, or driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.

You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.



You would be surprised.

Howver 80A at 12v is only a brake horsepower and a bit..





On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:07:14 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
current at engine idle speed.Â* I'm sure my friend got his to give out
pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine.Â* He was
powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

That however is probably true for most car alternators




--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people
by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason they are
poor.

Peter Thompson

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:03:33 +0100, Xeno wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very very
old
indeed. I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up. It's currently maxing out my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming power
overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps
(randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a
meter when all the fuses are pulled.

Sounds more like a wiring fault. An alarm shouldnt
ever take anything like that when its not sounding.

The alarm (to stop theives) cannot be disabled with a fuse. To remove the
alarm or replace it involves dismantling pretty much the entire front of
the car.

Bet youd find the fault still there with the alarm disconnected.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:03:33 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very very
old
indeed. I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that
ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up. It's currently maxing out my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming power
overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps
(randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a
meter when all the fuses are pulled.

Sounds more like a wiring fault. An alarm shouldnt
ever take anything like that when its not sounding.

Can be a real bugger to find if its a pinched wire somewhere if it isnt
obvious where a wire can be pinched like at one of the doors etc.

The alarm (to stop theives) cannot be disabled with a fuse. To remove
the alarm or replace it involves dismantling pretty much the entire front
of the car.

Bet youd find the fault still there with the alarm disconnected.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:02:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 14:47, Xeno wrote:
On 11/7/19 5:11 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle.
Obviously they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be
very useful to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town
driving, or driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.

You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.



You would be surprised.

Howver 80A at 12v is only a brake horsepower and a bit..





On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:07:14 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
current at engine idle speed.* I'm sure my friend got his to give out
pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine.* He was
powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

That however is probably true for most car alternators


The ADVANTAGE of an alternator is it CAN produce full output at low
RPM. (compared to a DC generator)

What an 80 amp alternator has trouble with in many cases is producing
that power at low speeds without melting down (due to reduced cooling
air flow at low speeds)

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:56:27 -0400, David Lidington, another "new"
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:


Probably could have disconnected the battery and pulled the fuses and
traced it out with a signal injector but that thought didn't really
appeal to me so I threw some money at it.

Good Lord! For how long are you mentally challenged senile idiots STILL
going to go on about the same bull****? Until the troll is fed up with you?

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:23:37 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Sounds more like a wiring fault.

Sounds more like he is a trolling attention whore and you are a
troll-feeding senile asshole! But then you are quite the troll yourself,
senile Ozzietard!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:30:05 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Can be a real bugger

Nothing could possibly be as real a bugger as you are, senile Ozzietard!

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:30:05 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:03:33 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very very
old
indeed. I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that
ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up. It's currently maxing out my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming power
overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps
(randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a
meter when all the fuses are pulled.

Sounds more like a wiring fault. An alarm shouldnt
ever take anything like that when its not sounding.

But if it's broken....

Can be a real bugger to find if its a pinched wire somewhere if it isnt
obvious where a wire can be pinched like at one of the doors etc.

Surely a physical short like that would just burn out eventually.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:37:30 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:02:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 14:47, Xeno wrote:
On 11/7/19 5:11 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle.
Obviously they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be
very useful to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town
driving, or driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.

You may see a high voltage but you will not see a high current at idle.
The alternator is not *capable* of high current at idle.



You would be surprised.

Howver 80A at 12v is only a brake horsepower and a bit..





On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:07:14 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
current at engine idle speed. I'm sure my friend got his to give out
pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine. He was
powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

That however is probably true for most car alternators


The ADVANTAGE of an alternator is it CAN produce full output at low
RPM. (compared to a DC generator)

What an 80 amp alternator has trouble with in many cases is producing
that power at low speeds without melting down (due to reduced cooling
air flow at low speeds)

When a car is sat stationary, the cooling fan will be on for the engine. This will most likely also cool the alternator. Mine is for example only a foot away from the fan.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:30:05 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:03:33 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very
very
old
indeed. I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug
abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that
ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up. It's currently maxing out my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate
discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming power
overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps
(randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a
meter when all the fuses are pulled.

Sounds more like a wiring fault. An alarm shouldnt
ever take anything like that when its not sounding.

But if it's broken....

There is no fault in an alarm that would produce a result like that.

Can be a real bugger to find if its a pinched wire somewhere if it isnt
obvious where a wire can be pinched like at one of the doors etc.

Surely a physical short like that would just burn out eventually.

Nope, 4A isnt enough to do that.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:43:38 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:30:05 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:03:33 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very
very
old
indeed. I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug
abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that
ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up. It's currently maxing out my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate
discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming power
overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps
(randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a
meter when all the fuses are pulled.

Sounds more like a wiring fault. An alarm shouldnt
ever take anything like that when its not sounding.

But if it's broken....

There is no fault in an alarm that would produce a result like that.

I don't know enough about alarms to disagree, but couldn't it be sounding the alarm without noise as something is broken? It's never tried to prevent me starting the engine though.

Can be a real bugger to find if its a pinched wire somewhere if it isnt
obvious where a wire can be pinched like at one of the doors etc.

Surely a physical short like that would just burn out eventually.

Nope, 4A isnt enough to do that.

I can't see a loose wire doing that. At some point it will either burn itself or a fuse. It's been doing it for 3 years. 4A at 12V is 48 watts, a lot of power. Think how hot a 48W bulb gets.

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:43:38 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two subnormal prize idiots' latest idiotic blather

--
Norman Wells addressing senile Rot:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:43:38 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:30:05 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:03:33 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very
very
old
indeed. I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug
abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me
his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that
ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up. It's currently maxing out
my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate
discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming
power
overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4
amps
(randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with
a
meter when all the fuses are pulled.

Sounds more like a wiring fault. An alarm shouldnt
ever take anything like that when its not sounding.

But if it's broken....

There is no fault in an alarm that would produce a result like that.

I don't know enough about alarms to disagree, but couldn't it be sounding
the alarm without noise as something is broken?

Nope. Its the sound that takes the current.
It if isnt sounding, there isnt the current.

It's never tried to prevent me starting the engine though.

Yeah, it wont be an alarm fault.

Can be a real bugger to find if its a pinched wire somewhere if it
isnt
obvious where a wire can be pinched like at one of the doors etc.

Surely a physical short like that would just burn out eventually.

Nope, 4A isnt enough to do that.

I can't see a loose wire doing that.

Its not a loose wire, its a wire jammed between two
pieces of metal with an edge cutting thru the insulation.

At some point it will either burn itself

Not with 4A it wont.

or a fuse.

It cant be a fused line given that you still get
the battery flattened with no fuses installed.

It's been doing it for 3 years. 4A at 12V is 48 watts, a lot of power.
Think how hot a 48W bulb gets.

Thats with the entire 48W being dissipated in the
very small filament. With a pinched wire, thats
mostly going thru the metal of the car body.

How long does the 4A last for ?

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:43:38 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:30:05 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:03:33 +0100, Xeno
wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very
very
old
indeed. I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug
abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me
his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that
ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up. It's currently maxing out
my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate
discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming
power
overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4
amps
(randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery
with a
meter when all the fuses are pulled.

Sounds more like a wiring fault. An alarm shouldnt
ever take anything like that when its not sounding.

But if it's broken....

There is no fault in an alarm that would produce a result like that.

I don't know enough about alarms to disagree, but couldn't it be sounding
the alarm without noise as something is broken?

Nope. Its the sound that takes the current.
It if isnt sounding, there isnt the current.

It's never tried to prevent me starting the engine though.

Yeah, it wont be an alarm fault.

Can be a real bugger to find if its a pinched wire somewhere if it
isnt
obvious where a wire can be pinched like at one of the doors etc.

Surely a physical short like that would just burn out eventually.

Nope, 4A isnt enough to do that.

I can't see a loose wire doing that.

Its not a loose wire, its a wire jammed between two
pieces of metal with an edge cutting thru the insulation.

At some point it will either burn itself

Not with 4A it wont.

or a fuse.

It cant be a fused line given that you still get
the battery flattened with no fuses installed.

If you can somehow rig up something that allows you to
see or hear the current draw, or have someone else watch
the meter, you may be able to see if its a door by doing
that and operating the doors.

It's been doing it for 3 years. 4A at 12V is 48 watts, a lot of power.
Think how hot a 48W bulb gets.

Thats with the entire 48W being dissipated in the
very small filament. With a pinched wire, thats
mostly going thru the metal of the car body.

How long does the 4A last for ?

On 7/11/19 4:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 21:56:27 +0100, David Lidington wrote:

On 7/11/19 4:24 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice.* It's consuming power overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps (randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a meter when all the fuses are
pulled.The alarm (to stop theives) cannot be disabled with a fuse.* To remove the alarm or replace it involves dismantling pretty much the entire front of the car.

After several false alarms at 3am, I took mine to the dealer and had them disable it. Might have been an hour labor charge.

Probably could have disconnected the battery and pulled the fuses and traced it out with a signal injector but that thought didn't really appeal to me so I threw some money at it.

It might depend on the car, but I was told (either for this one or the Golf I had two cars ago with the same problem) that an entire dashboard dismantling would be needed, a whole day's work for a garage.* Although when I had a Ford Mondeo 17 years ago,
the AA disabled the alarm (which was preventing me using the car and disturbing the neighbours) by simply cutting (believe it or not) the red wire (!) under the steering wheel.


If you don't want to fix it, do what any libtard canadian mechanic would do and install a remote disconnect.

https://www.amazon.com/WATERWICH-Wir.../dp/B07R29SMVY

Daniel60 wrote on 11/07/2019 7:09 PM:
Xeno wrote on 22/06/2019 9:03 PM:
On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and

A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.

On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.

Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were
to be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage?? Or does it vary
from one manufacturer to another??

Ah!! Good to read there is consistency ...... *NOT* !! ;-P

--
Daniel

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:03:31 -0400, Reggie Hammond, another "new"
troll-feeding senile asshole, blathered again:


If you don't want to fix it, do what any libtard canadian mechanic would
do and install a remote disconnect.

Now who's THAT nym-shifting troll-feeding senile Canuck again! tsk

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:31:05 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 136 !!! lines of the two clinically insane idiots' endless
idiotic blather

....and much better air in here again!

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:20:46 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 145 !!! lines of the two subnormal idiots' endless idiotic
drivel unread

....and f'up to alt.idiots where all their sick **** belongs.

--
dennis@home to know-it-all Rot Speed:
"You really should stop commenting on things you know nothing about."
Message-ID:

On 12/07/2019 07:56, Daniel60 wrote:
Daniel60 wrote on 11/07/2019 7:09 PM:

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage?? Or does it vary
from one manufacturer to another??

Ah!! Good to read there is consistency ...... *NOT* !! ;-P
More volts requires more cells. Better to standardise on the size of a
cell, set a maximum operating current and alter the number of cells
according to cost/power requirements.

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:03:31 +0100, Reggie Hammond wrote:

On 7/11/19 4:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 21:56:27 +0100, David Lidington wrote:

On 7/11/19 4:24 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Wrong yet again. I've changed the battery twice. It's consuming power overnight - presumably the alarm - I've actually measured up to 4 amps (randomly, sometimes it consumes nothing) coming off the battery with a meter when all the fuses are
pulled.The alarm (to stop theives) cannot be disabled with a fuse. To remove the alarm or replace it involves dismantling pretty much the entire front of the car.

After several false alarms at 3am, I took mine to the dealer and had them disable it. Might have been an hour labor charge.

Probably could have disconnected the battery and pulled the fuses and traced it out with a signal injector but that thought didn't really appeal to me so I threw some money at it.

It might depend on the car, but I was told (either for this one or the Golf I had two cars ago with the same problem) that an entire dashboard dismantling would be needed, a whole day's work for a garage. Although when I had a Ford Mondeo 17 years ago,
the AA disabled the alarm (which was preventing me using the car and disturbing the neighbours) by simply cutting (believe it or not) the red wire (!) under the steering wheel.


If you don't want to fix it, do what any libtard canadian mechanic would do and install a remote disconnect.

https://www.amazon.com/WATERWICH-Wir.../dp/B07R29SMVY

Then I need to reset the flashing clock.