"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 23/6/19 1:45 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator
or charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V
forever, providing the charger can give out enough current to charge
the slightly flat battery and power any connected loads. If the
battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current when
it became full, but the voltage would stay the same. If the charger
monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if the
battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Parallel circuits,

Nope, the separate wires go to different bits of the car like
the starter, the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.

so what?

So its possible to work out what current the battery is taking.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

No it isn't.

Yes it is. He has said more than once that the
voltage just after starting the engine is different
to what it is when the battery is fully charged.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent discussing
whether they charged fine or not, we are discussing what the
regulator does when the battery is fully charged so that it doesnt
boil off the water in the battery. Thats particularly important
now that most car batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,

It actually to avoid ****ing the battery by delivering
the same current to the battery when its fully charged.

but it's not necessary to keeping the battery charged.

That isnt what is being discussed either.

There is nothing they can do about the load so they don't
give a **** about the lights. The regulator just watches
alternator current and cranks up the voltage to keep it up.

That's rather bizarre. The alternator monitors current? So, what's
the correct current that it's targeting? 2 amps, 20 amps? 70 amps?
The current depends on what loads are on and the alternator doesn't
know that. Seems to me it keeps the system VOLTAGE at ~14V

No it doesnt. Doing that would overcharge a fully charged battery.

and that has worked for 100 years.

Wrong again, generators do it differently to alternators.

Yes, no argument there. You mean like this;
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/books/pdf/..._Box_Tests.pdf

Voltage and current control. They were pretty much on the way out by the
time I finished my apprenticeship.

With alternators, voltage is key.

You need to get with the times. Generators went out with button up boots.

That was commenting on that fool ******_4's stupid claim that nothing
has changed in 100 years with car electrical systems. Of course it has.

"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 23/6/19 1:57 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:00:41 AM UTC-4, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in
the old
bangers.

Nonsense. Cars used voltage regulators for better part of a century and
they are simple electronics which is well understood. And, AFAIK,
that is STILL how it's done, all the FUD here notwithstanding. Some
cars may have something more elaborate, but it's obviously not required
to keep the battery correctly charged, which was the OPs question about
charging.

No it wasnt, he asked about changing to a trickle charge when the
battery
is fully charged.

Battery chargers do it automatically - if they are decent.
Alternators too do it automatically.

What I said, do try to keep up.

On 23/6/19 3:02 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge?Â* I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?Â* That's determined by the
alternator or
charger.Â* Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to
charge the battery quickly.Â* It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat
battery and power any connected loads.Â* If the battery had no loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full,
but the
voltage would stay the same.Â* If the charger monitored the
current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging
at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Not on any car I've owned or worked on.Â* And more to the point, it's
obviously not needed because cars have worked with the same lead-acid
batteries

They arent the same lead acid batterys, most of the current
ones cant be topped up with extra water when needed.

and alternators with basic voltage regulators for most of the last
century.

We havent used alternators for most of the last century.

Since the mid 60s, alternators became *common*.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Even if there is an additional wire, explain to us how you
monitor the current in the charging cable with that wire.

With more than one wire, you can see
what the load from the lights etc is.

And you dont even have to do it that way
with modern computer controlled lights now.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

But the essence of his question is how cars switch to
trickle charge and AFAIK, the answer is they don't.

The current to the battery does in fact drop
dramatically once the battery is fully charged.

Again, the battery, alternator output and
all the car loads are connected TOGETHER.

Irrelevant to what can be done with
the voltage from the alternator.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

And that's all that's needed to keep the battery correctly
charged and working.Â* There was no "trickle charging".

There is in the sense that the current to the battery
drops significantly when the battery is fully charged.
Yes, he didnt word the original very well, but thats
what he always does.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent discussing
whether they charged fine or not,

Any other obfuscation you want to throw in?

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Alternators with voltage regulators have been used with lead
-acid batteries in cars for the better part of the last century.

Wrong, as always.

And the principles with generators are the same.

Wrong, as always. With an alternator you can regulate its output
by varying the exciter current. You cant do that with a generator.

You do know how a generator works, don't you? A relay is used to
alternately turn off and on the *field current*, effectively varying the
duty cycle, in order to control generator output. No different to an
alternator. Some generator regulators, ie. the three bobbin type, can
also control generator current but, in these cases, it is more to do
with *current limiting* at peak output rather than current control
throughout the range of operation.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...5tCmQjH1Ncy6-Y

Early alternator regulators also used a relay for the same purpose but
now a transistorised or hybrid circuit is the norm. Much more efficient.
Don't need a cut-out on an alternator since diodes prevent backfeeding.

we are discussing what the regulator does when the battery
is fully charged so that it doesnt boil off the water in the
battery. Thats particularly important now that most car
batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,

It actually to avoid ****ing the battery by delivering
the same current to the battery when its fully charged.

Xeno and I have correctly described how the basic, widely used charging
system has worked for decades with the same lead-acid batteries.

They arent the same lead acid batterys.

The lead acid battery fundamentals are exactly the same as they have
always been.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/6/19 3:24 am, Bod wrote:
On 22/06/2019 18:02, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge?Â* I can understand it noticing a
drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?Â* That's determined by the
alternator or
charger.Â* Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to
charge the battery quickly.Â* It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat
battery and power any connected loads.Â* If the battery had no loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full,
but the
voltage would stay the same.Â* If the charger monitored the
current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging
at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator
can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Not on any car I've owned or worked on.Â* And more to the point, it's
obviously not needed because cars have worked with the same lead-acid
batteries

They arent the same lead acid batterys, most of the current
ones cant be topped up with extra water when needed.

and alternators with basic voltage regulators for most of the last
century.

We havent used alternators for most of the last century.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Even if there is an additional wire, explain to us how you
monitor the current in the charging cable with that wire.

With more than one wire, you can see
what the load from the lights etc is.

And you dont even have to do it that way
with modern computer controlled lights now.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

But the essence of his question is how cars switch to
trickle charge and AFAIK, the answer is they don't.

The current to the battery does in fact drop
dramatically once the battery is fully charged.

Again, the battery, alternator output and
all the car loads are connected TOGETHER.

Irrelevant to what can be done with
the voltage from the alternator.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

And that's all that's needed to keep the battery correctly
charged and working.Â* There was no "trickle charging".

There is in the sense that the current to the battery
drops significantly when the battery is fully charged.
Yes, he didnt word the original very well, but thats
what he always does.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent discussing
whether they charged fine or not,

Any other obfuscation you want to throw in?

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Alternators with voltage regulators have been used with lead
-acid batteries in cars for the better part of the last century.

Wrong, as always.

And the principles with generators are the same.

Wrong, as always. With an alternator you can regulate its output
by varying the exciter current. You cant do that with a generator.

we are discussing what the regulator does when the battery
is fully charged so that it doesnt boil off the water in the
battery. Thats particularly important now that most car
batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,

It actually to avoid ****ing the battery by delivering
the same current to the battery when its fully charged.

Xeno and I have correctly described how the basic, widely used charging
system has worked for decades with the same lead-acid batteries.

They arent the same lead acid batterys.


Rod, you keep spelling *batteries* incorrectly (just to let you know).
Or do Aussies spell it that way?

Ahem, that is a *Rod thing*, not an Aussie thing. Literacy levels and
all that. ;-)

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/6/19 5:43 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:08:46 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:55:03 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:14:07 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"Bod" wrote in message
...
On 22/06/2019 18:02, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator)
know
when to
switch to trickle charge?Â* I can understand it noticing a
drop
in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what
if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?Â* That's determined by the
alternator or
charger.Â* Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to
charge the battery quickly.Â* It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,

providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the
slightly
flat
battery and power any connected loads.Â* If the battery had no
loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became
full,
but the
voltage would stay the same.Â* If the charger monitored the
current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still
charging
at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator
like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated
somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator
can
do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Not on any car I've owned or worked on.Â* And more to the point,
it's
obviously not needed because cars have worked with the same
lead-acid
batteries

They arent the same lead acid batterys, most of the current
ones cant be topped up with extra water when needed.

and alternators with basic voltage regulators for most of the last
century.

We havent used alternators for most of the last century.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Even if there is an additional wire, explain to us how you
monitor the current in the charging cable with that wire.

With more than one wire, you can see
what the load from the lights etc is.

And you dont even have to do it that way
with modern computer controlled lights now.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

But the essence of his question is how cars switch to
trickle charge and AFAIK, the answer is they don't.

The current to the battery does in fact drop
dramatically once the battery is fully charged.

Again, the battery, alternator output and
all the car loads are connected TOGETHER.

Irrelevant to what can be done with
the voltage from the alternator.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

And that's all that's needed to keep the battery correctly
charged and working.Â* There was no "trickle charging".

There is in the sense that the current to the battery
drops significantly when the battery is fully charged.
Yes, he didnt word the original very well, but thats
what he always does.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged
fine.

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent
discussing
whether they charged fine or not,

Any other obfuscation you want to throw in?

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Alternators with voltage regulators have been used with lead
-acid batteries in cars for the better part of the last century.

Wrong, as always.

And the principles with generators are the same.

Wrong, as always. With an alternator you can regulate its output
by varying the exciter current. You cant do that with a generator.

we are discussing what the regulator does when the battery
is fully charged so that it doesnt boil off the water in the
battery. Thats particularly important now that most car
batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current
going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel
consumption,

It actually to avoid ****ing the battery by delivering
the same current to the battery when its fully charged.

Xeno and I have correctly described how the basic, widely used
charging
system has worked for decades with the same lead-acid batteries.

They arent the same lead acid batterys.

Rod, you keep spelling *batteries* incorrectly

Wrong, as always.

(just to let you know).

No news to me, boy.

He's probably as old as you.

He isnt.

I've met Bod and he's (I'm about to insult him most likely) very very
old
indeed.Â* I'd have to guess 80 to 90.

Thats just the furious drunken grave dancing and flagrant drug abuse.

Smoking does make your face more wrinkly, but I'm sure he told me his
age once.

For some reason I've always assumed you're about 70.

You're still wrong.

What is your age then?

And back on topic, I just bought a 16 amp 13.8V power supply, that ought
to keep the bloody frog car charged up.Â* It's currently maxing out my
2.5A supply all night, and still not starting in the morning.

That's telling you your battery is knackered. Try a high rate discharge
test on it. You will see it fall over very quickly.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/6/19 5:45 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:06:16 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 15:28:21 +0100, trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to
switch to trickle charge?* I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?* That's determined by the alternator or
charger.* Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially,
to charge the battery quickly.* It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing the charger can give out enough current to charge the
slightly flat battery and power any connected loads.* If the battery
had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current when it
became
full, but the voltage would stay the same.* If the charger monitored
the current it was providing, how does it know if the battery is
still
charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp
load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery and the
rest of the car are tied to one point and there is no monitor
for what current is going to the battery vs to the car load.
And Rod is talking computers,
so how did cars work prior to the 80s? They didn't have a computer
didn't monitor anything other than the voltage regulator maintained
a constant voltage of ~14v while the car was running.* It was that
way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,
but it's not necessary to keeping the battery charged.

I doubt it saves much energy.* Charging a lead acid at 13.8 to 14.4V
continuously, wastes **** all power.* More likely it can charge at a
higher voltage to begin with to make the battery full quickly, then pull
back to trickle when needed.* Handy if you make a habit of using a
lot of
accessories like lights when the engine is off then need it charged
quickly when you drive for 10 minutes.** Or if like me you drive for 100
yards at a time and are using the starter a lot (or have one of those
stop
start engines).* Older cars would run out of battery if you did lots of
short journeys, as there was no fast charge.

There is nothing they can do about the load so they don't give a ****
about the
lights.* The regulator just watches alternator current and cranks up
the voltage to keep it up.

That's rather bizarre.* The alternator monitors current?* So, what's
the correct current that it's targeting?* 2 amps, 20 amps?* 70 amps?
The current depends on what loads are on and the alternator doesn't
know that.* Seems to me it keeps the system VOLTAGE at ~14V and that
has worked for 100 years.

It would have to monitor the current going into the battery, by
having at
least two ammeters,

Just two cables from the battery positive terminal, one to the alternator
and one
to the rest of the electrical system and measure the voltage drop over
those.

or have all the positive wires join somewhere

They do, the positive terminal of the battery.

and measure the branch off to the battery.

Just subtract the current to the rest of the electrical system
from the current going from the alternator to the battery
terminal. That gives you the current going into the battery.

Maybe they do that now.* But that doesn't help me charging my battery at
night with a seperate power supply.* I'll just leave it at 13.8V, I
don't need a fast charge, I just need it to remain charged as it's full
when I get home.* No matter what the load, if the terminals of the
battery are kept at 13.8V, it should remain full.

If the voltage at the charger doesn't get *above* 13.8V, that's telling
you your battery is developing a *high internal resistance*.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
current at engine idle speed.* I'm sure my friend got his to give out
pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine.* He was
powering a small disco on a campsite :-)

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.


On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:00:34 +0100, Brian Gaff
wrote:

Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in
the old
bangers.
*Normally the output will change due to engine speed, but* in alternators
there is a voltage regulator inbuilt to keep the* thing pretty
nominal and
of course the thing that then suffers is the charging rate, ie its
going to
be be slower when its not running very fast. I think if a battery dips
below
about 11v outside of starter transients, you have to charge it or get
a new
one. This* very accurate sensing these days can often mask a battery
on its
last legs though, as people tend to ignore* warnings if the car still
works,
then they leave it a couple of days and it won't start!

Brian


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/6/19 5:55 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:44:15 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 3:06:28 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 15:28:21 +0100, trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when
to
switch to trickle charge?* I can understand it noticing a
drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?* That's determined by the
alternator or
charger.* Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially,
to charge the battery quickly.* It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing the charger can give out enough current to charge the
slightly flat battery and power any connected loads.* If the
battery
had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current when it
became
full, but the voltage would stay the same.* If the charger
monitored
the current it was providing, how does it know if the battery is
still
charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp
load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator
can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery and the
rest of the car are tied to one point and there is no monitor
for what current is going to the battery vs to the car load.
And Rod is talking computers,
so how did cars work prior to the 80s? They didn't have a computer
didn't monitor anything other than the voltage regulator maintained
a constant voltage of ~14v while the car was running.* It was that
way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,
but it's not necessary to keeping the battery charged.

I doubt it saves much energy.* Charging a lead acid at 13.8 to 14.4V
continuously, wastes **** all power.* More likely it can charge at a
higher voltage to begin with to make the battery full quickly, then
pull
back to trickle when needed.* Handy if you make a habit of using a
lot of
accessories like lights when the engine is off then need it charged
quickly when you drive for 10 minutes.** Or if like me you drive
for 100
yards at a time and are using the starter a lot (or have one of
those stop
start engines).* Older cars would run out of battery if you did
lots of
short journeys, as there was no fast charge.

There is nothing they can do about the load so they don't give a
****
about the
lights.* The regulator just watches alternator current and cranks up
the voltage to keep it up.

That's rather bizarre.* The alternator monitors current?* So, what's
the correct current that it's targeting?* 2 amps, 20 amps?* 70 amps?
The current depends on what loads are on and the alternator doesn't
know that.* Seems to me it keeps the system VOLTAGE at ~14V and that
has worked for 100 years.

It would have to monitor the current going into the battery, by
having at
least two ammeters,

Just two cables from the battery positive terminal, one to the
alternator
and one
to the rest of the electrical system and measure the voltage drop over
those.

or have all the positive wires join somewhere

They do, the positive terminal of the battery.

and measure the branch off to the battery.

Just subtract the current to the rest of the electrical system
from the current going from the alternator to the battery
terminal. That gives you the current going into the battery.

When you have an actual credible cite that describes this alleged
system, post it. Until then, all you are doing is making crap up on
the fly.

I can believe him, I've observed my car's alternator change from 14.4V
to 13.8V after it's been running for a bit, so it must know the battery
is full.

Like claiming that all cars have more than one wire to the battery
positive terminal.

I've never seen one that doesn't.* Usually I see one for the alternator,
one for the starter, and one for everything else.* Why would you have
only one?* These are high currents, best to connect things directly.

The starter cable is irrelevant in this equation since there will be *no
current flowing* unless the starter is operating. If the starter is
operating, then there will minimal output from the alternator so, in
that situation, the alternator is irrelevant. So, it the engine is
running and the battery is fully charged, the *battery* is, for all
intents and purposes irrelevant since alternator current will, for the
most part, be flowing from B+ on the alternator, bypassing the battery
and flowing to those loads that require it. The alternator is, in
effect, wired in parallel with the battery.

Or that cars use the resistance of the large gage cable to measure
current. You just pulled that one from your ass, it's rather unlikely
for some* obvious reasons.* But hey, you claim that's how it's done,
provide some references.......

I do hate it when people say "for obvious reasons" - they are never
obvious to anyone else.

That is precisely how you measure current, by a voltage drop across a
known resistance.

Correction, that is how you *calculate current*. The issue is that you
need to *know* the resistance.

An ammeter will measure current directly by being placed *in the
circuit*, with or without a shunt resistor.

And they certainly don't want to add more resistance
to something trying to carry 100s of amps.

Ammeters have extremely low resistances so have minimal effect on a
circuit, especially general automotive ones. If you need to measure a
higher current than the meter is capable of handling, you use a shunt.

I guess they could also use
an amp clamp, but that would cost more.

Amp clamps are cheap. Have a pro one here somewhere.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/6/19 7:22 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:45:08 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge?Â* I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?Â* That's determined by the alternator or
charger.Â* Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to
charge the battery quickly.Â* It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat
battery and power any connected loads.Â* If the battery had no loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full,
but the
voltage would stay the same.Â* If the charger monitored the current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

That was my original question - on an old car, there is no way for the
regulator to tell the difference between the battery still charging at
10 amps and the headlamps being switched on.

The regulator doesn't care. It's the voltage that matters. Whatever
*total* load there is, the voltage will change accordingly and the
current output will adjust. Ohms law will ensure an appropriate current
flow through the battery and the lights.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent discussing
whether they charged fine or not, we are discussing what the
regulator does when the battery is fully charged so that it doesnt
boil off the water in the battery. Thats particularly important
now that most car batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

Modern batteries are more resilient actually.

Actually less unless you want to pay for new technology like EFB or AGM.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,

It actually to avoid ****ing the battery by delivering
the same current to the battery when its fully charged.

Wouldn't have to if they just charged at 13.8V, but I assume they're
trying to do a fast charge first.

but it's not necessary to keeping the battery charged.

That isnt what is being discussed either.

There is nothing they can do about the load so they don't
give a **** about the lights.Â* The regulator just watches
alternator current and cranks up the voltage to keep it up.

That's rather bizarre.Â* The alternator monitors current?Â* So, what's
the correct current that it's targeting?Â* 2 amps, 20 amps?Â* 70 amps?
The current depends on what loads are on and the alternator doesn't
know that.Â* Seems to me it keeps the system VOLTAGE at ~14V

No it doesnt. Doing that would overcharge a fully charged battery.

and that has worked for 100 years.

Wrong again, generators do it differently to alternators.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/6/19 7:26 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 01:17:29 +0100, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:55:31 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:48:01 +0100, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge?* I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?* That's determined by the alternator
or charger.* Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to charge the battery quickly.* It'll just sit at 14.4V
forever, providing the charger can give out enough current to
charge the slightly flat battery and power any connected loads.* If
the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less
current when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.
If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it
know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery
is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator There is
nothing they can do about the load so they don't give a **** about the
lights.* The regulator just watches alternator current and cranks up
the voltage to keep it up. When current drops off it is either because
there is less load or because the battery is taking less of a charge.
That is when the voltage ramps down.
If current gets really low, like the battery is charged and there is
not much load they hit the bottom of the range ... essentially a
trickle charger that is also running the radio and heater fan.

Take this situation:* You start your car with the battery 3/4s full.
The alternator provides a high voltage and charges it quickly.* It's
dark and cold, you have demisters, lights, etc on.* How does the
alternator know when the battery is full?* As current will continue
to be taken from it to power all those loads.

As for a smart charger, usually the voltage is all they need to know.
When the voltage drop across the battery starts to rise. it indicates
the battery is charging and at a certain point they either turn off or
turn to trickle.
Different batteries have different "fully charged"* voltage levels so
they usually have a switch for different types . (deep cycle, AGM etc)

I guess charging a car battery with a charger plugged into the house
won't work if you have a load in the car like lights (or in my case a
faulty alarm).* The charger will think the battery is still drawing a
fair current and isn't full, when in fact it's the load eating it up.

Plug in chargers are voltage regulated so that load would pull the
voltage down and the charger would try to bring it up.* Once the
battery was charged the charger would either see a higher voltage and
ramp down or it would stay there at. what it could drive.

No, if you charge a battery with no load, the charger will sit at 14.4V
(provided it can give enough current to do that) until the battery drew
little current, then it would back off to 13.8V.

But with a load, the charger thinks the battery is still charging, when
in fact it's the load taking that current.* So it will stay at 14.4V
forever and **** the battery.

What do you think is happening when you have a fully charged battery but
have the AC on, the headlights on, the driving lights on, the seat
warmer on, etc, etc.
The *internal resistance* of the battery will be high when it is fully
charged so most current will flow to the *other loads*.


That is
probably a good reason to turn all that crap off when you are charging
a battery off line

I don't have anything deliberately loading it.

and you might want to take the negative lead to the
car loose if you have too much residual load.

Too much hassle.* Anyway if I was going to do that, which I used to, I
wouldn't even need a charger as the battery would never go flat.

Depends on the car. Some cars have a lot of parasitic loading, some have
minimal parasitic loading, very few current cars have no parasitic loading.

Batteries lose charge even if nothing is connected to them. It's called
*self-discharge* and you can educate yourself here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discharge

It's why people put their batteries on a trickle or float charger when
in storage and not being used.

More education here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_voltage

Maybe you could figure
out what was killing the battery in the first place then.

I know it's the alarm, as it still does it with every damn fuse pulled
out.** The alarm is hidden away and difficult to disconnect, to stop
thieves doing so.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 23/6/19 7:55 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 18:02:30 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

snip

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Even if there is an additional wire, explain to us how you
monitor the current in the charging cable with that wire.

With more than one wire, you can see
what the load from the lights etc is.

And you dont even have to do it that way
with modern computer controlled lights now.

I doubt it knows about everything, like how much power you're using from
the cigarette lighter socket etc.Â* Easier to just measure the total load
in one go, than trying to add up precise currents it thinks the wipers
might be using etc.

It isn't concerned about *individual* loads. It looks at the *system
voltage* and operates from that.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

But the essence of his question is how cars switch to
trickle charge and AFAIK, the answer is they don't.

The current to the battery does in fact drop
dramatically once the battery is fully charged.

The chemistry of the battery sees to that itself, but it's better for
the battery to lower the voltage from 14.4 to 13.8 when it's full.Â* It's
not as easy as a lithium cell where you just give it 4.2V.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 10:02:37 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


We're discussing cars.

We're discussing your and his clinical insanity, whenever one you opens his
stupid perverted gob!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 16:07:14 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:


No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

Every way for him to get YOU to suck him off time and again, every time he
wants to be sucked off by one of you seniles infesting these groups! BG

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 12:59:55 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


It wont be taking 4A when charged unless
you have completely ****ed up the voltage.

You clinically insane auto-contradicting asshole disagree? Well, that's a
novelty! LMAO!

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: .com"

On 23/6/19 1:37 pm, Rod Speed wrote:


"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 23/6/19 1:45 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge?Â* I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change?Â* That's determined by the alternator
or charger.Â* Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to charge the battery quickly.Â* It'll just sit at 14.4V
forever, providing the charger can give out enough current to
charge the slightly flat battery and power any connected loads.
If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less
current when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.
If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it
know if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the
battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Parallel circuits,

Nope, the separate wires go to different bits of the car like
the starter, the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.

The starter wire, that big fat one, is *irrelevant* unless starting. The
power to the vehicles *system*, usually fused, is but an extension of
the B+ wire from the alternator. Once the alternator is running and
producing charge, it takes over all electrical supply to the vehicle's
various circuits. Technically, the battery no longer needs to be there,
since all supply is provided by the alternator, but it does serve as a
suppressor of spikes, prevents overvoltage, etc.

so what?

So its possible to work out what current the battery is taking.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

No it isn't.

Yes it is. He has said more than once that the
voltage just after starting the engine is different
to what it is when the battery is fully charged.

And that is what you would *expect to see* since you have just made a
150-300 amp draw on the battery.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent discussing
whether they charged fine or not, we are discussing what the
regulator does when the battery is fully charged so that it doesnt
boil off the water in the battery. Thats particularly important
now that most car batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,

It actually to avoid ****ing the battery by delivering
the same current to the battery when its fully charged.

but it's not necessary to keeping the battery charged.

That isnt what is being discussed either.

There is nothing they can do about the load so they don't
give a **** about the lights.Â* The regulator just watches
alternator current and cranks up the voltage to keep it up.

That's rather bizarre.Â* The alternator monitors current?Â* So, what's
the correct current that it's targeting?Â* 2 amps, 20 amps?Â* 70 amps?
The current depends on what loads are on and the alternator doesn't
know that.Â* Seems to me it keeps the system VOLTAGE at ~14V

No it doesnt. Doing that would overcharge a fully charged battery.

and that has worked for 100 years.

Wrong again, generators do it differently to alternators.

Yes, no argument there. You mean like this;
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/books/pdf/..._Box_Tests.pdf


Voltage and current control. They were pretty much on the way out by
the time I finished my apprenticeship.

With alternators, voltage is key.

You need to get with the times. Generators went out with button up boots.

That was commenting on that fool ******_4's stupid claim that nothing
has changed in 100 years with car electrical systems. Of course it has.

Electrical systems - yes, alternators - no. The only part that has
significantly changed has been the regulator and that function, in some
case, is being done by the computer. The alternator regulator has been
through a number of changes since its inception. The first were
*mechanical*, using relays to control output. They then progressed to
transistorised and hybrid. Computer control of voltage regulation is
just the next logical progression.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:28:54 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 113 !!! lines of troll****

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 16:46:39 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:


What do you think is happening when you have a fully charged battery but

Good Lord! For how long are you idiots STILL going to go on like that? Until
the sociopathic ****** is fed up with you again? Will you senile assholes
NEVER learn? tsk

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 09:45:06 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 245 !!! lines of absolutely idiotic troll****

--
Another typical retarded conversation between our two village idiots,
Birdbrain and Rodent Speed:

Birdbrain: "You beat me to it. Plain sex is boring."

Senile Rodent: "Then **** the cats. That wont be boring."

Birdbrain: "Sell me a de-clawing tool first."

Senile Rodent: "Wont help with the teeth."

Birdbrain: "They've never gone for me with their mouths."

Rodent Speed: "They will if you are stupid enough to try ****ing them."

Birdbrain: "No, they always use claws."

Rodent Speed: "They wont if you try ****ing them. Try it and see."

Message-ID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 16:03:33 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:


That's telling you your battery is knackered.

It's not his battery that is knackered, troll-feeding senile asshole! It's
HIM that is knackered! And, obviously, so are you!

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 16:49:52 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:


It isn't concerned about *individual* loads. It looks at the *system
voltage* and operates from that.

Listen, you degenerate senile Ozzie asshole, I'm slowly loosing my patience
with you. If you, obviously purposely, refuse to learn your lesson, you will
get some special treatment. Capisci, senile idiot?

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 15:50:53 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:

FLUSH over 150 lines of the two senile asshole's senile ****

The lead acid battery fundamentals are exactly the same as they have
always been.

You two morons are exactly the same kind of senile idiots who are thankful
that they found a place where they can spread their senile ****!

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:24:01 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 129 !!! lines of the two subnormal idiots' latest troll****

--
Another typical retarded "conversation" between the two resident idiots:

Birdbrain: "But imagine how cool it was to own slaves."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, right. Feed them, clothe them, and fix them when
they're broken.
After all, you paid good money for them. Then you've got to keep an eye
on them all the time."

Birdbrain: "Better than having to give them wages on top of that."

Senile Rodent: "Specially when they make more slaves for you
and produce their own food and clothes."

MID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 16:33:12 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:


The regulator doesn't care.

The Scottish asshole doesn't care either, all he cares about is whether you
will come running along and suck him off, time and again, senile Australian
cocksucker! So far, he has been very lucky with you! BG

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 13:37:09 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 130 !!! lines of the senile idiots' latest idiotic blather
unread

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 16:26:22 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:

The starter cable is irrelevant in this equation

EVERYTHING is irrelevant in this senile "discussion", senile Ozzie asshole!
It's just another idiotic troll-feast, with you senile fool playing a
predominant role in it!

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 09:48:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Some gutless drug crazed drunken diseased ****wit that¢s
actually stupid enough to believe that that fool Raygun
actually won the cold war, desperately cowering behind
trader_4 spewed the **** you¢d
expect from a desperately cowering drunken drug crazed
diseased ****wit that¢s actually stupid enough to believe
that that fool Raygun won the cold war.

Oh, look, the senile Ozzie troll lost yet another argument!

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 09:55:39 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 135 !!! lines of the two clinically insane idiots' stinking
troll****

--
Another retarded "conversation" between Birdbrain and senile Rodent:

Senile Rodent: " Did you ever dig a hole to bury your own ****?"

Birdbrain: "I do if there's no flush toilet around."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, I prefer camping like that, off by myself with
no dunnys around and have always buried the ****."

MID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 16:06:02 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:


If the voltage at the charger doesn't get *above* 13.8V, that's telling
you your battery is developing a *high internal resistance*.

Your idiotic troll-feeding is telling me that you are another typical
miserable lonely senile cretin who is thankful he found an obviously
retarded troll to feed.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:57:35 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:


If you have a battery

Shove your battery up your arse, that will keep you quiet for a while, you
endlessly blathering senile idiot!

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 12:59:55 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


FLUSH another 223 !!! lines of the two senile Ozzie cretin's latest sick
****

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 12:07:05 +1000, Xeno, another brainless, troll-feeding,
senile Australian idiot, blathered:

Ohm's law.

That's a bit *deep* for some people to comprehend.

Like you being unable to comprehend that you've turned into another
miserable troll-feeding brainless senile asshole? BG

"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 23/6/19 3:02 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop
in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the
alternator or
charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to
charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat
battery and power any connected loads. If the battery had no loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full,
but the
voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored the
current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging
at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can
do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Not on any car I've owned or worked on. And more to the point, it's
obviously not needed because cars have worked with the same lead-acid
batteries

They arent the same lead acid batterys, most of the current
ones cant be topped up with extra water when needed.

and alternators with basic voltage regulators for most of the last
century.

We havent used alternators for most of the last century.

Since the mid 60s, alternators became *common*.

Irrelevant to what I said.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Even if there is an additional wire, explain to us how you
monitor the current in the charging cable with that wire.

With more than one wire, you can see
what the load from the lights etc is.

And you dont even have to do it that way
with modern computer controlled lights now.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

But the essence of his question is how cars switch to
trickle charge and AFAIK, the answer is they don't.

The current to the battery does in fact drop
dramatically once the battery is fully charged.

Again, the battery, alternator output and
all the car loads are connected TOGETHER.

Irrelevant to what can be done with
the voltage from the alternator.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

And that's all that's needed to keep the battery correctly
charged and working. There was no "trickle charging".

There is in the sense that the current to the battery
drops significantly when the battery is fully charged.
Yes, he didnt word the original very well, but thats
what he always does.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent discussing
whether they charged fine or not,

Any other obfuscation you want to throw in?

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Alternators with voltage regulators have been used with lead
-acid batteries in cars for the better part of the last century.

Wrong, as always.

And the principles with generators are the same.

Wrong, as always. With an alternator you can regulate its output
by varying the exciter current. You cant do that with a generator.

You do know how a generator works, don't you?

Yep.

A relay is used to alternately turn off and on the *field current*,
effectively varying the duty cycle, in order to control generator output.
No different to an alternator.

Very different to an alternator.

Some generator regulators, ie. the three bobbin type, can also control
generator current

So very different to an alternator.

but, in these cases, it is more to do with *current limiting* at peak
output rather than current control throughout the range of operation.

Still very different to an alternator.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...5tCmQjH1Ncy6-Y

Early alternator regulators also used a relay for the same purpose but now
a transistorised or hybrid circuit is the norm.

So very different to a generator.

Much more efficient. Don't need a cut-out on an alternator since diodes
prevent backfeeding.

So very different to a generator.

we are discussing what the regulator does when the battery
is fully charged so that it doesnt boil off the water in the
battery. Thats particularly important now that most car
batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,

It actually to avoid ****ing the battery by delivering
the same current to the battery when its fully charged.

Xeno and I have correctly described how the basic, widely used charging
system has worked for decades with the same lead-acid batteries.

They arent the same lead acid batterys.

The lead acid battery fundamentals are exactly the same as they have
always been.

But the other stuff is different, most obviously with the
current batterys which cant even have more water added.

What sort of stupid wog are you ?

....and nothing's left!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 18:45:44 +1000, Xeno, another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile Australian idiot, blathered:


The starter wire

For starters, learn to trim your quote, you debile senile idiot!

"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 23/6/19 1:37 pm, Rod Speed wrote:


"Xeno" wrote in message
...
On 23/6/19 1:45 am, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator
or charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V
initially, to charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V
forever, providing the charger can give out enough current to charge
the slightly flat battery and power any connected loads. If the
battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same. If the
charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full
and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

Parallel circuits,

Nope, the separate wires go to different bits of the car like
the starter, the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.

The starter wire, that big fat one, is *irrelevant* unless starting.

Irrelevant to your stupid claim about parallel circuits.

reams of your irrelevant **** flushed where it belongs

so what?

So its possible to work out what current the battery is taking.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

They didn't have a computer didn't monitor anything
other than the voltage regulator maintained a constant
voltage of ~14v while the car was running.

Its more complicated than that with the voltage.

No it isn't.

Yes it is. He has said more than once that the
voltage just after starting the engine is different
to what it is when the battery is fully charged.

And that is what you would *expect to see* since you have just made a
150-300 amp draw on the battery.

He's not talking about the voltage with the starter running.

It was that way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

Generators do it differently to alternators and we arent discussing
whether they charged fine or not, we are discussing what the
regulator does when the battery is fully charged so that it doesnt
boil off the water in the battery. Thats particularly important
now that most car batterys arent refillable with water anymore.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,

It actually to avoid ****ing the battery by delivering
the same current to the battery when its fully charged.

but it's not necessary to keeping the battery charged.

That isnt what is being discussed either.

There is nothing they can do about the load so they don't
give a **** about the lights. The regulator just watches
alternator current and cranks up the voltage to keep it up.

That's rather bizarre. The alternator monitors current? So, what's
the correct current that it's targeting? 2 amps, 20 amps? 70 amps?
The current depends on what loads are on and the alternator doesn't
know that. Seems to me it keeps the system VOLTAGE at ~14V

No it doesnt. Doing that would overcharge a fully charged battery.

and that has worked for 100 years.

Wrong again, generators do it differently to alternators.

Yes, no argument there. You mean like this;
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/books/pdf/..._Box_Tests.pdf

Voltage and current control. They were pretty much on the way out by the
time I finished my apprenticeship.

With alternators, voltage is key.

You need to get with the times. Generators went out with button up
boots.

That was commenting on that fool ******_4's stupid claim that nothing
has changed in 100 years with car electrical systems. Of course it has.

Electrical systems - yes,

Even sillier than you usually manage with computer controlled systems.

alternators - no.

They werent used for that 100 years.

The only part that has significantly changed has been the regulator and
that function, in some case, is being done by the computer.

Wrong, as always, most obviously with the
changer from generators to alternators.

reams of your even sillier **** flushed where it belongs, wog boy

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Asks the unemployable ******/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated
IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
with passing places in the NW of Scotland. ****ing great fun"!

"Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

"I am proud of being nicked 10 times, and even prouder of talking my
way out of twice that number of offences".
"Make that 12. 9 speeding offences, 2 seatbelts, and 1 unroadworthy
vehicle".

On rape:
"What is wrong is raping someone. It doesn't matter if they are an
adult or a child".
"The problem there is our prudishness. People ought to have sex with
everyone all the time".

On Jimmy Savile:
"If he had done it against their will, they would have come forwards
earlier. The fact that they didn't suggests either he did nothing at
all, or the children liked it".

"Journalists are not human".

"I don't give a **** about the law".
"**** the law".
"It's only illegal is you get caught".
"Something being illegal does not matter".
"The law is irrelevant".

"I am honest".
"Theft is illegal".
"When I was 11 I stole candles from a church".

"I have never found out the purpose of underpants".

"Women are inferior".
"Crying is unnecessary and pathetic. So is screaming. Why do women
scream when they're frightened? Perhaps they realise they're
inferior and are calling for the nearest man"?

"I believe that UFOs have visited us but not in recent times".
"I don't believe in UFOs".
"When someone says "UFO", they do not mean 4000 years ago. Then they
would just be "FO" as they hadn't invented flying yet".

"My IQ is superiour to that of most people".
"I am inferior in some ways but superior in other ways".
"I admit I should not have been born".
"Jobs are for sheeple".

"Some men are hot".

"I can sleep outside in a temperature of -20C wearing only shorts".

"I once took a dump behind some bushes and slid down a hill to wipe my
arse".

"I do not post waffling bull**** or childish insults".
"He is indeed very stupid, and easy to make fun of".

"I am currently eating a sandwich made with bread that has been in my
fridge THREE WEEKS past the sell by date. It is not dry, it is not
mouldy, it is identical to the day I bought it".

"And there's nothing wrong with jumping red lights if you don't cause
an accident"

"I don't want to drive at the speed limit. It's absurdly slow and in
fact I find it more dangerous. It's so tedious I'm in danger of
falling asleep. "Whoever made up the limits must have a really slow
brain". "I think it's stupid to follow a law which is baseless. The
law on red lights is to stop you hitting someone. If there is
nobody there, you cannot hit them".

"If the guy behind me has his lights on too bright. I let him past
then tailgate him with my full beam on until he switches his off".

"I like driving fast and scaring people".

"People who don't know how to shave don't know how to behave."

On mental health:
"Being sectioned just means you are different from others, it doesn't
mean you are wrong".

"If I wanted you to stab me with a knife and kill me, you should not
get into trouble for it".
"I would kill my sister if I thought I'd get away with it".
"I'm not what most people think of as human".

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
"There is no reason the data stored in our heads cannot be
transferred".
"I will not accept money from my neighbours for doing them a favour"
"My neighbour just paid me £40 to brush moss off the roof of her porch
extension. It took me 10 minutes."

"Pain is not harmful. The victim may well want rid of it, but it's no
reason for anyone to rush there".

"Dogs are supposed to live in packs of other dogs, running wild. Not
sat in a house all day".

"We should be allowed to do as we wish within reason. For example":
"Smoke weed in a public place, drive as fast as we like, and do both
of those stark naked. Oh and **** in public".

"Careful drivers tend to get in my way".

"I can only predict two minutes into the future".



Sociopath.
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
"As I've told you before, that's quite normal. It's just not prim and
proper like you, you silly snob".

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 20:09:16 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 165 !!! lines of the three brain dead idiots' latest ****

....and much better air in here again!

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 3:55:09 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:44:15 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 3:06:28 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 15:28:21 +0100, trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator or
charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially,
to charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever,
providing the charger can give out enough current to charge the
slightly flat battery and power any connected loads. If the battery
had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current when it became
full, but the voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored
the current it was providing, how does it know if the battery is still
charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp
load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery and the
rest of the car are tied to one point and there is no monitor
for what current is going to the battery vs to the car load.
And Rod is talking computers,
so how did cars work prior to the 80s? They didn't have a computer
didn't monitor anything other than the voltage regulator maintained
a constant voltage of ~14v while the car was running. It was that
way from the early days and auto batteries charged fine.

There may be some modern cars where they do monitor the current going
to the battery, maybe to save energy and increase fuel consumption,
but it's not necessary to keeping the battery charged.

I doubt it saves much energy. Charging a lead acid at 13.8 to 14.4V
continuously, wastes **** all power. More likely it can charge at a
higher voltage to begin with to make the battery full quickly, then pull
back to trickle when needed. Handy if you make a habit of using a lot of
accessories like lights when the engine is off then need it charged
quickly when you drive for 10 minutes. Or if like me you drive for 100
yards at a time and are using the starter a lot (or have one of those stop
start engines). Older cars would run out of battery if you did lots of
short journeys, as there was no fast charge.

There is nothing they can do about the load so they don't give a ****
about the
lights. The regulator just watches alternator current and cranks up
the voltage to keep it up.

That's rather bizarre. The alternator monitors current? So, what's
the correct current that it's targeting? 2 amps, 20 amps? 70 amps?
The current depends on what loads are on and the alternator doesn't
know that. Seems to me it keeps the system VOLTAGE at ~14V and that
has worked for 100 years.

It would have to monitor the current going into the battery, by having at
least two ammeters,

Just two cables from the battery positive terminal, one to the alternator
and one
to the rest of the electrical system and measure the voltage drop over
those.

or have all the positive wires join somewhere

They do, the positive terminal of the battery.

and measure the branch off to the battery.

Just subtract the current to the rest of the electrical system
from the current going from the alternator to the battery
terminal. That gives you the current going into the battery.

When you have an actual credible cite that describes this alleged system, post it. Until then, all you are doing is making crap up on the fly.

I can believe him, I've observed my car's alternator change from 14.4V to 13.8V after it's been running for a bit, so it must know the battery is full.

Like claiming that all cars have more than one wire to the battery positive terminal.

I've never seen one that doesn't. Usually I see one for the alternator, one for the starter, and one for everything else. Why would you have only one? These are high currents, best to connect things directly.

Well, wherever you are, cars must be put together differently. I've worked
on American cars, BMW, Mercedes, none had anything more than one cable
to the positive battery terminal. Additionally, there are aftermarket
battery cables for generic replacement, I've never seen one of those with
more than one cable either. Just because you only have one cable, doesn't
mean that the starter, etc can't be connected, it's just wire. There are
many ways it can be connected and routed, there is no reason more than one
cable needs to go to the battery.





Or that cars use the resistance of the large gage cable to measure current. You just pulled that one from your ass, it's rather unlikely for some obvious reasons. But hey, you claim that's how it's done, provide some references.......

I do hate it when people say "for obvious reasons" - they are never obvious to anyone else.


Pity about that.



That is precisely how you measure current, by a voltage drop across a known resistance. And they certainly don't want to add more resistance to something trying to carry 100s of amps. I guess they could also use an amp clamp, but that would cost more.

On 23/6/19 9:24 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:41:15 +0100, Xeno wrote:


the *battery* is the *load*.

Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.

Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
the output.

I believe the reason Rod mentioned load as being seperate to the battery
is this thread is about my car, with a fault that draws current from the
battery, and it's also connected to a bench supply.* In this situation,
we refer to "load" as the faulty alarm system.* I originally asked how
an alternator could distinguish between the battery charging, and a load
such as your headlamps being on.

In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That
makes it the load.

See above.

What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the
battery connected? It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it
no longer sees a load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.

Ooops, got that arse about - disconnect the *battery* with the 240V
power still connected.

Bull****.* You're telling me that a bench supply with a battery on the
output and no 240V input will blow up if it doesn't shut down?* Wrong.

The battery is the load. And I'm referring to a charger and the leads to
the battery being disconnected, not the 240V input. The same as if you
open circuit the battery on a running, and charging, alternator. It can
be done but there is a high risk of a spike zapping something. The
battery acts to dampen spikes and it's removal from the circuit exposes
the regulator and any other electronic components to spikes.

Absolutely wrong.* The output end of the supply (which probably ends
with smoothing capacitors) is just kept at the normal output voltage by
the battery.

I used the term *charger* for a very good reason.

Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge

4A isnt a trickle charge.

That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.
Also, my bench charger will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity.
As the battery becomes charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp*
and, from that point, it will maintain a *trickle charge*.

How ****ing big is that battery?!* When I charge a 60Ah lead acid at
13.8V, it drops to about 150mA when full.

When I was working on trucks, it wasn't unusual to see 4 x 12 Volt, 200
AH batteries wired series-parallel, so yes, 1 amp can be a trickle.

*From Wikipedia;
**** For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
**** in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
**** end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
**** to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
**** charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
**** the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
**** lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
**** hydrogen and oxygen gases

Trouble is you might want to do a bulk charge first, at 14.4V.

The car alternator regulator is no different. It sees the battery as a
load, determines the voltage reference and pumps up its output.

All it can do is supply a certain voltage.* 13.8V is safe.* If it uses
14.4V or higher, it has to know when to back off to 13.8.* It cannot do
that if there is an external current draw like headlamp, as it won't
know if they're switched on, or if the battery is drawing that current.

The regulator has a Zener diode to *limit* the voltage. An external
current draw will lower the voltage.

When the
regulator sees the battery voltage at the peak setpoint,

You can't tell a battery is full by voltage.* You can only tell by it
drawing less current.* The voltage is determined by the charger.

The voltage at the battery will be determined by the battery's *internal
resistance*. As that battery's internal resistance goes higher, as it
will do as it becomes charged, the voltage will go higher and current
will reduce.
it too will
drop the current to a trickle.

Actually it drops the voltage, to 13.8.* I used to have a solar battery
regulator which had very detailed instructions saying how it worked.* It
took the voltage of the solar cells and altered it up or down a bit to
suit the battery condition.

If you add a load, say by turning
headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery and it will drop the
system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see that and pump up the
output current appropriately. The current will apportion itself to the
*two* loads as appropriate to their individual internal resistances.

But it can't tell the difference between current going to the lights and
to the battery.

It doesn't need to. All it needs to know is the aggregate current draw,
the total. That will be indicated by the voltage.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:22:54 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:45:08 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:15:21 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.

Why would the voltage change? That's determined by the alternator or
charger. Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to
charge the battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing
the charger can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat
battery and power any connected loads. If the battery had no loads
connected, it would take a lot less current when it became full, but the
voltage would stay the same. If the charger monitored the current it
was providing, how does it know if the battery is still charging at 10
amps, or if the battery is full and there's a 10 amp load?

Not really true with anything but the most primative regulator like
you might see on an old outboard. Voltage is regulated somewhere
between 13.x and 14.x, not just reflecting what the alternator can do
against the load.
Rod is right, they look at current from the alternator

Every car I've seen, the the alternator, the battery
and the rest of the car are tied to one point

But there is normally more than the one wire
at the the positive terminal of the battery.

and there is no monitor for what current
is going to the battery vs to the car load.

Wrong when there is normally more than the one
wire at the the positive terminal of the battery.

And Rod is talking computers,

Because thats what his car has.

so how did cars work prior to the 80s?

The regulator uses the voltage it sees which varys
with the load and the charge of the battery.

That was my original question - on an old car, there is no way for the regulator to tell the difference between the battery still charging at 10 amps and the headlamps being switched on.


And so far I haven't seen any evidence presented here that shows modern
ones can tell the difference and care about it either. The ones I've
seen, still have a voltage regulator in the alternator that functions
like it has for most of the last century. Rod claims to know so much,
including that they use the resistance of the battery cable to measure
current, but he can't produce anything other than his own flapping BS
gums and he's likely just doing the usual, making it up on the fly
and lying.