On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:38:11 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
mike news 2017 18:39:50 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


It does matter, because so far, you haven't
shown us one solar install company offering
a home solar system that supplies power to the
whole house with the grid down, without a
battery bank.

This ****ing contest is going nowhere.
Without the grid or battery backup,
there is no way that you can extract more energy
than the sun is producing.

Well, that depends on the hardware you have access to, and how much you
understand about electronics and transformers. But, I digress. I
realize, many people have no useful knowledge of either. With that
said, I'm *not* one of those people.


Electronics and transformers are not going to make up for the lack
of sun or a battery bank. A generator would.

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:38:11 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Sun, 14
May 2017 17:20:37 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I'm not confusing anything at all.

Yes, you are, intentionally I suspect. You hate being wrong.



I didn't say it could. I specifically said, "that can provide
power without the grid".

Oh, please. Here you go, distorting, taking
out of context, what the discussion was about.


I was waiting for you to make more unfounded accusations. Looks like
I didn't have to wait very long.

Again, thanks for proving yourself wrong.

I realize you wish that was the case, but, it's not.

See above. With the controller (an additional expense) you can
provide power to the inverter via the PV array without using
batteries.

Only you are claiming that, not the company.

I'm only claiming it because i've done it. The company could too,
but, they'd have to sell you a small box to do the tie in for you.
More work on their part. They may not recoup the costs.


Obviously if this were possible at a reasonable cost, every solar
install company would be hawking it, because it would be a MAJOR
advantage. The fact that so far, you can't produce a single example
speaks volumes.





It *can* couple a battery bank to it. What the controller
is actually doing is limiting the incoming voltage coming off the
PV array so it doesn't blow the inverter to pieces.

I'm starting to see why many? others have declared you a troll
and binned you. I'm not quite ready to do that, myself.


I've already seen why you are a troll, starting
with the crowd you dragged in here.

Like I told you, previously (even offered to use crayons), I didn't
drag anyone here. Now I'll use crayons and write in a way a small
child could understand with ease: I followed them here. You're
welcome.

Yes, I'm sure he reports back to you regularly.

Me personally? No, but, he does report to one of the companies that
cuts me a paycheck...I could just take a drive to the jobsite and ask
him myself, but, why bother doing so when I can just ask one of the
people above me?

According to the install instructions for that
hybrid converter, which "I" supplied, it says
a battery bank is mandatory. Are they lying?

Well, they're aren't being completely honest. That *could* be blamed
on the advertising dept not keeping in synch with the r&D dept,
though. I've been in such situations myself with a software
company...


Sure, ROFL. The company has a converter that can be used to power
the house without the grid or a battery bank, yet they don't tell
anyone.




Did you ignore the lines following "It's not a problem" on
purpose, or? Just how do you suppose it's able to power his house
on the battery bank, without backfeeding the grid? Some kind of
magic?

I don't claim to be an expert of the exact
details of the isolation problem.

That was obvious, the you aren't an expert on this subject, part.

I can tell
you that you can find link after link from
solar companies, installers, green energy experts
citing that as one of the problems and reason
why the solar arrays being installed every day
can't operate without the grid.

So the battery bank is for? crickets, you said, right?

You said you can power the house WITHOUT A BATTERY BANK.




This is real simple. Do you agree that if you
could run the array, supply power to the house,
without the grid being up and without a battery
bank, that it would be a powerful sales tool?

Not really.

it's another device the manufacturer would either have to
incorporate into the inverter itself, or sell seperately. Without any
guarantee of recouping their monies.

Good grief, you just charge the customer. And you just claimed
that the hybrid inverter that you cited does exactly that. Of course
the company actually says the inverter must be used with a battery
bank!




If they opted to just include it
in the inverter, it would require a larger inverter and increase
costs. Making them, not as competitive as another.


You claimed it was in that inverter you installed. The company
disagrees. And if it could be included for any reasonable cost,
many customers would want it and pay for it. Customers are shelling
out $5K+ for generators aren't they? So, why wouldn't many customers
pay extra for this option that you claim is easily doable? Where
are the examples of all the solar installers hawking it? Instead,
every one I've seen says that with grid tied solar and without a
battery bank, if the grid goes down, you have no power. And clouds,
not being able to deliver continuous power to the house is an
insurmountable problem.


If and when solar 'takes off',

Most reasonable people would say that's already happening. I see
installs all over the place just driving down the road. There are
1 mil residential installs in the US, 15 GWatts a year going in,
42 Gwatts total. Who's behind the times here?


then, they might want to seriously
consider making a few design changes, and/or selling the unit
seperately. As it is presently, it's very specific to the PV array
and the inverter you wish to tie it into.

You still have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?


I know that you haven't shown us a single application example from
a solar install company that shows a residential system that is grid
tied, without battery banks, that has power to the house when the
grid is down. Also no app notes from an eqpt maker either. The one
link you provided showed exactly the opposite, that their hybrid
inverter must be installed with a battery bank.




Homeowner's would love it.

Not enough home owners are buying what's already available...


Good grief. There are 1 mil solar installs in the USA, generating
42 GWatts of power. You probably don't know it because you're in
TN, where there isn't as much subsidization as there is in many
other parts of the country.



You would have power when your grid connected
neighbor did not. So, just show us some of them.
If you can't, case closed.

I already did. You looked all over the site, remember?


You've showed us nothing. You provided a link to a whole website.
I played your game a bit, looked at the 3 cases they show. Not
one of them was grid tied, without a battery bank and offered power
during grid outages. The hybrid inverter you cited, I PROVIDED THE
INSTALL INSTRUCTION LINK and it clearly says it must be used with
a battery bank.

Show us all these installation examples that feature solar power
without the grid and without a battery bank. Crickets.....
Meanwhile we have these that confirm exactly what I said:



http://www.energymatters.com.au/resi...me-solar-faqs/


What happens with grid connect systems during a blackout?
The grid connect inverter will automatically shut itself off within a few milliseconds of a blackout, to avoid the potential of a dangerous €œbrown-out€� in your home and to prevent back feeding into the grid. Therefore even though you have a solar system during a blackout you will not have power available. If you want to keep on having electricity available during a blackout then you would need to have back up batteries installed as well, which will add to the cost of the system.



http://www.solarray.com/CompletePack...atteries_T.php

Grid-Tie without batteries:

These systems offer lower cost and higher efficiency for those wanting to just sell power (turn the meter backwards). Since these systems don't have batteries, they don't offer power backup. When the grid goes down, they go down.

https://www.solarenergyworld.com/faq...making-energy/

If there is a power outage, will my solar system keep making energy?

Many people considering going solar ask if a solar system works during a power outage. If you have a solar battery system as well as a solar PV system, your power will continue to work. However, since your system is grid-tied, for safety reasons, if there is a power outage your solar system will automatically shut off when the power goes out. Solar batteries can add as much as 30% to the cost of a solar system presently, so most homeowners do not go with this option.



http://www.solargreen.net.au/blog/do...ng-a-blackout-

One of the questions people ask us when installing grid connected solar power systems is: Do they keep my power on during a blackout?

Alas, no. When the grid goes down, a grid connected solar array goes down. This is because the grid connected inverter which converts DC photovoltaic power to AC household current, is designed to trip out during a blackout and not feed power back to the grid (saving a linesmans life if he is working on a power line that is down nearby).


http://blogs.edf.org/energyexchange/...he-next-sandy/

An unfortunate reality

When Superstorm Sandy hit, residential and commercial PV owners were frustrated upon realizing that their solar panels were rendered useless without a functioning central grid, even when the sun was shining brightly.

Generators powered by fossil fuels dont necessarily hold up any better in the wake of a devastating storm. They certainly can perform as true emergency workhorses if they reach hard-hit areas. But they are noisy, polluting and, unlike solar, dependent on fuel, which in the wake of Sandy quickly became hard to find and expensive.


It is a common belief that simply installing solar panels is enough to keep the lights on during a blackout, but the truth is the majority of PV systems today lose all functionality when the grid goes down. Currently, most on-site PV systems are so-called €œgrid-tied systems€� that interact with the wider utility grid through an inverter. While its commonly understood that the grid supplies and absorbs excess energy from the PV system, it is less commonly known that it also serves the critical function of balancing the output of the PV system. More specifically, the PV system and inverter rely on the electric grid to constantly maintain voltage and frequency within appropriate limits as sunlight intensity fluctuates throughout the day.


https://thirdsunsolar.com/residentia...in-a-blackout/

Does solar work in a power outage?
There are two reasons that ordinary grid-tied solar will not work during a grid failure. The first is a technical reason and the second is a safety and regulatory issue.

First and foremost is the technical reason. The electronics that control a solar electric system constantly adjust voltage and current in order to keep the panels operating at their most efficient and powerful operating point through a range of varying sunlight conditions. To do this, the system needs to be able to produce quantities of power that are not dependent on how much your house is actually using at the time. In a grid-connected system, that excess power is put back onto the grid for others to use, and your utility credits you on your bill for that power.

Solar power output varies directly with sunlight levels. So, even if you disregard the need for efficiency, connecting this variable resource directly to your homes electrical system would cause your lights to blink, damage your refrigerator, and wreak havoc on your computers and television..

The second reason that solar shuts down during a blackout is safety.


(Which is exactly what I said, that the insurmountable problem is that
the output of the array varies and people and their appliances are not
going to tolerate brownouts or total loss of power from a passing cloud
from an array without the grid and without a battery bank.)
Capiche?

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 10:54:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:


Industry officials say they support their customers right to generate electricity on their own property, but they say rooftop solars new popularity is creating a serious cost imbalance. While homeowners with solar panels usually see dramatic reductions in their electric bills, they still rely on the grid for electricity at night and on cloudy days. The utility collects less revenue, even though the infrastructure costs €” from expensive power plants to transmission lines and maintenance crews €” remain the same.

Ultimately, someone pays those costs, said David K. Owens, an executive vice president for Edison Electric Institute, the trade association that represents the nations investor-owned utilities


that has some truth to it but also leaves out some truth.
electricity cost more to make during peak times.
The power company wants you to use less power during peak times so they don't
have to build a new peaker plant.
So there is two sides to this coin.
Solar unfairly uses the grid for storage without paying.
Solar helps the power company smooth out the peak load.

I think the only fair way to sort this out is to charge the true cost for each aspect of usage.

One cost for simply connecting to the grid to cover line maintenance.
You pay this amount even if your net kWh = 0

Another fee for peak daytime kWh in or out.

Another lower fee for off peak kWh in or out.

The power company of course want to present only the the side of the coin that gets them more money.

m

I think that's where the utilites are too. They are just saying that now
that solar is expanding, we need a new pricing model to accurately and
fairly distribute the costs.

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 11:05:57 AM UTC-4, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2017 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:




Industry officials say they support their customers right to generate electricity on their own property, but they say rooftop solars new popularity is creating a serious cost imbalance. While homeowners with solar panels usually see dramatic reductions in their electric bills, they still rely on the grid for electricity at night and on cloudy days. The utility collects less revenue, even though the infrastructure costs €” from expensive power plants to transmission lines and maintenance crews €” remain the same.

Ultimately, someone pays those costs, said David K. Owens, an executive vice president for Edison Electric Institute, the trade association that represents the nations investor-owned utilities


that has some truth to it but also leaves out some truth.
electricity cost more to make during peak times.

It does not cost more to make power during peak times, it cost more to
buy it during those periods due to the law of supply and demand.

The power company wants you to use less power during peak times so they don't
have to build a new peaker plant.
So there is two sides to this coin.
Solar unfairly uses the grid for storage without paying.

In my area, we pay a flat fee for access to the grid, in other words,
everyone who is connected to the grid, pays to support the grid.


Solar helps the power company smooth out the peak load.

The utility company is getting quite a bargain as the price they pay
individual solar generators is significantly less then they would pay
to buy power from a commercial producer.


That isn't true in most states, it's actually the direct opposite.
In most states, the utilities are buying power from residential solar
at the full retail price of electricity, not at the wholesale rate
they would pay to buy it from other sources on the grid.






I think the only fair way to sort this out is to charge the true cost for each aspect of usage.

One cost for simply connecting to the grid to cover line maintenance.
You pay this amount even if your net kWh = 0

Already exists in many regions.


IDK where these many regions are. Here in NJ for example, half of
my electric bill is for distribution. If you have a $150 bill,
about $75 is for generation, $75 for distribution. If I used zero,
my bill would be zero. What is the cost of this fixed grid charge
for you, that is separate from the cost
for the energy used? Seems if this arrangement was widespread,
the utilities would not all be fighting to do something to fix
the problem.

On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 5/7/2017 12:54 PM, mike wrote:
On 5/7/2017 7:32 AM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
Only stoopid arseholes fell for that solar bull****.
Folks with more money than brains.


I expect that there were many scams, but for a while,
there were subsidies that were not bull****.
You could get your house weatherized for free if you happened
to be in the right place at the right time with no income.
Paid for at retail, it would never pencil out.

Solar power is always a good deal if you get someone
else to pay for it. I would have snatched it up except
that I had 60 foot trees on adjacent property that
blocked the roof and people pushing it couldn't make
enough money off me.


If the U.S. Government was serious, converting from fossil fuel to
solar, it would play a more active role in getting it up and going.
And that's the bottom line. Anything else is just wishful thinking and
rationalization.

Anybody who is thinking realizes that solar and wind are
too predictably unpredictable
to be a major player without major breakthrough in energy storage.
PV solar, like you'd put on a roof, is about as good as you're gonna
get with affordable processes. How much money are we spending on
Chinese imports to get it?
Government doesn't have a lot of choices.
They can fund organizations who promise great things, extract all the
subsidies they can then fold.
They can subsidize many rooftop systems that don't put much of a dent
in the problem except locally in regions of prime insolation.

We need less government, not more.
Your elected officials have one objective, to get reelected.
They do that by not rocking the boat and convincing their constituents
that they're the best of the bad options.
One person can't do jack. Too many special interests. Too much junk
science. Too many people in the streets protesting everything.

I like Trump because he isn't afraid to take unilateral action.
I don't like a lot that he does, but I praise his willingness to do
SOMETHING.
You can fix a bad decision. You can't fix indecision.

We're a generation of selfish self-gratifiers. We don't have a plan,
but that doesn't stop us from rejecting anyone who does.

The solution is fewer people and restricted consumption.
And that ain't gonna happen until the planet kills most of us.
Be thankful that you lived in the greatest period of prosperity
that the world will ever know.

On 5/15/2017 7:54 AM, wrote:



Industry officials say they support their customers right to generate electricity on their own property, but they say rooftop solars new popularity is creating a serious cost imbalance. While homeowners with solar panels usually see dramatic reductions in their electric bills, they still rely on the grid for electricity at night and on cloudy days. The utility collects less revenue, even though the infrastructure costs €” from expensive power plants to transmission lines and maintenance crews €” remain the same.

Ultimately, someone pays those costs, said David K. Owens, an executive vice president for Edison Electric Institute, the trade association that represents the nations investor-owned utilities


that has some truth to it but also leaves out some truth.
electricity cost more to make during peak times.
The power company wants you to use less power during peak times so they don't
have to build a new peaker plant.
Can't argue with that, BUT!!!
If you're supplementing the grid with rooftop solar, what happens when
the sun don't shine?
Would you be happy with rolling blackouts during bad weather when
the grid can't supply enough peak power?

So there is two sides to this coin.
Solar unfairly uses the grid for storage without paying.
Solar helps the power company smooth out the peak load.

I think the only fair way to sort this out is to charge the true cost for each aspect of usage.

One cost for simply connecting to the grid to cover line maintenance.
You pay this amount even if your net kWh = 0

Another fee for peak daytime kWh in or out.

Another lower fee for off peak kWh in or out.

We already have that in Oregon. When I looked into time of use billing,
the extra fees were higher than what I could save on electricity.
The more frugal you are with resources, the less you benefit.
We can also sign up for renewal energy. For a higher fee, all our
electricity
comes from renewable sources.
People actually fall for that scam. They move a number from one part
of the spreadsheet to another part and claim that saves the planet.
People think that actually makes a difference.
Would be more efficient and more fair to raise everybody's rate to
invest in renewables. Why do we insist on penalizing those who
want to help? Guess it's all about the sound bite.

The power company of course want to present only the the side of the
coin that gets them more money.


The power company is no more evil than anybody else.
They're making the best of what happens when you let regulators
and tree huggers into the mix.

Good grief. There are 1 mil solar installs in the USA, generating
42 GWatts of power. You probably don't know it because you're in
TN, where there isn't as much subsidization as there is in many
other parts of the country.

I love a good sound bite as much as the next guy, BUT
let's dig below the headline.

Put that in perspective.
1mil out of how many total households?

Put some context on that 42 gigawatts.
Is that the peak power of all the installed systems?
What's the total generating capacity of the current grid?

Power is the WRONG metric for solar energy production.
We know that the power is approximately zero at night.
Energy is measured in watt-hours.

It's easy for people to read the headline and believe
that 42 gigawatts of installed panels have the same capability
as 42 gigawatts of evil nuclear.

Here in NW Oregon, in December, 42 gigawatts of panels would produce
as much ENERGY, averaged over the month, as 3.5 gigawatts of nuclear
or hydroelectric or coal fired sources. (source nrel insolation map
http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/map_p...er_dec2008.jpg)
Difference is that conventional sources are reliable 24 hours a day.
Solar is at the whim of the seasons, the weather and the ~half of the
earth that's in darkness.

Raise your hand if you want your power to go off at night or when
the sky is cloudy.

Anybody???

Solar power is a great thing.
Solar power will be a feasible solution when storage technology catches up.
I don't expect anybody reading this will be alive when it does.

In Stormin' Norman writes:

On Mon, 15 May 2017 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

It does not cost more to make power during peak times, it cost more to
buy it during those periods due to the law of supply and demand.

Just addressing this one point:

Bzzzzzzzzt.

Generators are a trade off between initial cost, maintenance
expenses, efficiency (fuel to electricity), type of fuel,
and etc.

For those 24 hour baseline plants you don't care much
about initial cost, but you do careabout the others.
Hence those tend to be the big and lumbering, steam
powered, coal-transitioning-to-other-fuels monsters.

Cost per kw-hr is pretty low.

Now for that "peaking", "quick response", generator
you're (well, the utility orr its partner) is firing
up at 3 pm? That's going to be a less efficient
one, probably cheaper to initially install but it's
only used for four hours..., and will be running
with natural gas or oil - faster to ramp up.

So yes, the actual price of production of that
kw-hr from those 4 pm peaking turbine or other
quickie... will be higher than that from the lumbering,
24 hr/day, baseline.


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

trader_4
Mon, 15
May 2017 16:27:20 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I'm only claiming it because i've done it. The company could too,
but, they'd have to sell you a small box to do the tie in for
you. More work on their part. They may not recoup the costs.


Obviously if this were possible at a reasonable cost, every solar
install company would be hawking it, because it would be a MAJOR
advantage. The fact that so far, you can't produce a single
example speaks volumes.

I suspect (strongly) they could build what I did at much lower cost,
faster, etc. However, that doesn't mean enough people would BUY the
unit to justify the costs involved. It's not a very complicated
device, actually. It allows you to tie the PV array in, without a
battery bank to the battery bank terminals on the inverter unit. So
that as long as the PV is providing adequate voltage, your unit can
run in the event the grid goes down. I'm obviously not the first one
to come up with the idea, SMA beat me to it, but, mine makes more
wattage available, again, as long as the PV array is providing a semi
specific amount of voltage to it. If it's unable to do so, my gizmo
won't be able to do it's job and the inverter won't get the power it
needs. Do you understand what I'm writing about yet? You're an
electrical engineer, right? It *should have been* obvious what was
going on from the first time I mentioned no battery bank, but still
able to run, without the grid.

Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do? That *IS*
possible, since i'm not one.

Well, they're aren't being completely honest. That *could* be
blamed on the advertising dept not keeping in synch with the r&D
dept, though. I've been in such situations myself with a software
company...


Sure, ROFL. The company has a converter that can be used to power
the house without the grid or a battery bank, yet they don't tell
anyone.

I wouldn't be so quick to laugh, as SMA obviously knows what I'm
doing, since they incorporated similar technology in one of their
units, themselves.

But, MINE makes more wattage available so that the inverter actually
thinks it's taking advantage of a small, battery bank, when it's
actually using the PV array. Of course, this doesn't come without
limits. My box has to have a minimum amount of voltage coming from
the array, or, it will NOT be able to generate the 48volts at so many
amps required to run the inverter which can run this particular
clients house.

And, it can do this because his house appliances (the stuff that
pulls the serious wattage) are GAS, not electric. So the inverter is
basically supplying power for lighting circuits, and some home
entertainment gear. Nothing it cannot handle, nothing that's going to
put it in an overload condition, either.

You said you can power the house WITHOUT A BATTERY BANK.

Yes. See above.


If they opted to just include it
in the inverter, it would require a larger inverter and increase
costs. Making them, not as competitive as another.


You claimed it was in that inverter you installed. The company
disagrees.

Actually, I said nothing of the sort.

then, they might want to seriously
consider making a few design changes, and/or selling the unit
seperately. As it is presently, it's very specific to the PV
array and the inverter you wish to tie it into.

You still have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?


I know that you haven't shown us a single application example from
a solar install company that shows a residential system that is
grid tied, without battery banks, that has power to the house when
the grid is down. Also no app notes from an eqpt maker either.
The one link you provided showed exactly the opposite, that their
hybrid inverter must be installed with a battery bank.

So that was a no to my question then.

The second reason that solar shuts down during a blackout is
safety.

Not if it's connected via interlock, it doesn't...



--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do? That *IS*
possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current source
than a voltage source. Depending on where the operating point sits
on the V-I curve, relatively small changes in load can have a major
effect on the voltage and cause your inverter to behave badly.
A smart inverter would shutdown until you reset it or the voltage
in dropped to a very low voltage, AKA dark.

A not so smart inverter would shutdown, but the load going away
would let the voltage rise to the point it restarted. Repeat until
smoke, then repeat some more.
It's called a limit-cycle oscillation. It's very bad
for electrical equipment.

Building a PV system with neither local storage nor grid tie
is a fool's errand.

mike news May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do? That
*IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating 1000+
volts, but, not much amperage behind it. Say, 10 amps or so, under
perfect conditions. My box takes the high voltage DC, reduces it by a
wide margin, boosts the amperage by a wide margin (relatively speaking)
and feeds that to the inverter on the battery bank terminals.

If the incoming voltage should drop below a pre set threshold where my
box cannot provide 48 volts DC to the inverter, my box will provide it
nothing instead. Not less, but, nothing. As far as the inverter is
concerned, it becomes a 'dead' battery. There are a couple of
components inside the box to give the inverter a 'dummy load' for
charging purposes, so that the inverter isn't harmed and my box isn't
either. But, that's actually being wasted, since it's not storing the
current like a real battery would.

My box is simply taking advantage of a series wired PV array for high
voltage DC to generate amperage equ to a small battery bank, roughly
100amps or so. I can increase it's amperage output by changing out some
of the components. But, nothings for free, in order to run the changed
out components, It'll require additional voltage.

If the PV array is parallel and/or a series/parallel combination,
addtional changes would be necessary in order for my box to work
properly without smoking itself, damaging the PV array and/or the
inverter it's tied into.

This is why I said it's VERY specific to the inverter and the PV array
configuration it *was* able to provide power to. As the client is using
an actual battery bank now, my device has been disconnected and is
sitting on a shelf or something waiting for myself and/or boss persons
to come get it. As, it's no longer a necessary item.

Essentially what happened was the following:

If the grid goes down, an interlock seperates the inverter AC output
from the grid, so that a line man or other personal won't be lit up
when they are working on the grid. And, prior to the battery bank
installation, my box would take over as long as the PV array is up and
running and temporarily continue providing power to the inverter by
'pretending' to be a small battery bank. Now, if it's very cloudy
and/or nighttime and the grid goes down, my box isn't able to do
anything for the inverter, so, no power is being sent back onto the
grid, anyway, and, no power is being provided for the house, either.

At this point, a 30 second delay without grid power or inverter power
being detected will cause his generator to start up. The way it was
wired, though, if the generator is running, the interlocks will kick in
and isolate both the generator as well as the inverter from the
incoming mains (the grid); so there's NO chance someone working on the
grid will get anything nasty there way and the inverter won't be
damaged by power spiking as the generator begins providing power. IE:
if the generator is running, the inverter has no access to the 'grid'
or the power being supplied by the generator, either. It's isolated
from both and doing nothing useful for the client at this point, even
if it were able to do something useful. As it's electrically
disconnected from the mains that feed the house at that point. And,
well, if the generator is running, it's because the inverter and/or
grid for whatever reason, couldn't provide power in the first place.


I hope that clears things up.

Building a PV system with neither local storage nor grid tie
is a fool's errand.

It depends on what you need/want to use it for...


--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 6:28:28 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
mike news May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do? That
*IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating 1000+
volts,

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are talking
about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits the maximum
voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing these?



I hope that clears things up.

The install manual for the hybrid inverter you referenced cleared it up.
It shows no examples of using it without a battery bank. And the install
instructions specifically say it must be used with a battery bank.

Still waiting for examples of all the solar install companies hawking
the capability to power the house during the day with a grid tied
system without a battery bank. Still waiting for an app note from
one of the eqpt companies that shows using their gear to power houses
without the grid or a battery bank.



Building a PV system with neither local storage nor grid tie
is a fool's errand.

It depends on what you need/want to use it for...


Show us the case studies. And besides, the whole thread was about
what is generally being done, not some fringe users.

On 5/16/2017 3:25 AM, Diesel wrote:
mike news May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do? That
*IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating 1000+
volts, but, not much amperage behind it. Say, 10 amps or so, under
perfect conditions. My box takes the high voltage DC, reduces it by a
wide margin, boosts the amperage by a wide margin (relatively speaking)
and feeds that to the inverter on the battery bank terminals.

If the incoming voltage should drop below a pre set threshold where my
box cannot provide 48 volts DC to the inverter, my box will provide it
nothing instead. Not less, but, nothing. As far as the inverter is
concerned, it becomes a 'dead' battery. There are a couple of
components inside the box to give the inverter a 'dummy load' for
charging purposes, so that the inverter isn't harmed and my box isn't
either. But, that's actually being wasted, since it's not storing the
current like a real battery would.

My box is simply taking advantage of a series wired PV array for high
voltage DC to generate amperage equ to a small battery bank, roughly
100amps or so. I can increase it's amperage output by changing out some
of the components. But, nothings for free, in order to run the changed
out components, It'll require additional voltage.

If the PV array is parallel and/or a series/parallel combination,
addtional changes would be necessary in order for my box to work
properly without smoking itself, damaging the PV array and/or the
inverter it's tied into.

This is why I said it's VERY specific to the inverter and the PV array
configuration it *was* able to provide power to. As the client is using
an actual battery bank now, my device has been disconnected and is
sitting on a shelf or something waiting for myself and/or boss persons
to come get it. As, it's no longer a necessary item.

Essentially what happened was the following:

If the grid goes down, an interlock seperates the inverter AC output
from the grid, so that a line man or other personal won't be lit up
when they are working on the grid. And, prior to the battery bank
installation, my box would take over as long as the PV array is up and
running and temporarily continue providing power to the inverter by
'pretending' to be a small battery bank. Now, if it's very cloudy
and/or nighttime and the grid goes down, my box isn't able to do
anything for the inverter, so, no power is being sent back onto the
grid, anyway, and, no power is being provided for the house, either.

At this point, a 30 second delay without grid power or inverter power
being detected will cause his generator to start up. The way it was
wired, though, if the generator is running, the interlocks will kick in
and isolate both the generator as well as the inverter from the
incoming mains (the grid); so there's NO chance someone working on the
grid will get anything nasty there way and the inverter won't be
damaged by power spiking as the generator begins providing power. IE:
if the generator is running, the inverter has no access to the 'grid'
or the power being supplied by the generator, either. It's isolated
from both and doing nothing useful for the client at this point, even
if it were able to do something useful. As it's electrically
disconnected from the mains that feed the house at that point. And,
well, if the generator is running, it's because the inverter and/or
grid for whatever reason, couldn't provide power in the first place.


I hope that clears things up.

Building a PV system with neither local storage nor grid tie
is a fool's errand.

It depends on what you need/want to use it for...


You don't have a commercial installation.
You have a bunch of auction acquired stuff cobbled
together to make something that works for you.
Nothing wrong with a hobby project; I do it all the time.
But that's not something you can do with a commercial
installation. For general use, you'll find your customers
more demanding.

You've described a situation where you have grid tie.
You have decided that you can tolerate a 30-second loss of power
when the grid is down.
You replaced battery storage with diesel LOCAL storage and a generator
to convert it to electrical energy.
You have not described what happens when the generator is running
and the cloud has passed, or the load dropped below what solar can
supply, or what happens when a new cloud arrives.

Take a look at the curve he
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar...nel-efficiency

When solar becomes insufficient, the operating point is past the knee
of the curve. Small changes in load current can change the voltage
dramatically.
If the refrigerator starts, the current surge can drop the voltage
below your threshold and shut down your system. That lets the panel
voltage rise above the threshold. What do you do?
With the grid down and insolation low, you will see a lot of those
cycles. They can happen way short of 30 seconds apart. They'll
probably happen every time you turn on the electric stove
or air conditioner when insolation is low.
Do you start the generator? Do you let the fridge try to restart
every few seconds?

Engineering is a process of defining a problem and providing a ROBUST
solution that meets the needs of your entire customer base.
Sure, you can restrict your customer base to those who want a generator
in their back yard and tolerate limit-cycle oscillations in their
utility supply. A commercial supplier cannot do that.

Engineering is a process of recognizing, meticulously defining
a problem and solving it. You must predict and evaluate the performance
of your solution for situations at the limit that most people would not
even consider. It requires empathy, putting yourself in the shoes
of your target audience. That's something sorely lacking in the
engineering community. It's almost non-existent in the newsgroups
where everybody talks, few listen and even fewer have a clue.
You can't just look at the 10KW on the label and assume
it's all good. It ain't.

Many people reading this will conclude that they could tolerate your
solution. People over in that other group posting pictures of their cat
would find it totally unacceptable. There are way more of them than us.

In summary...
You evaded the issues.
You DO have grid tie.
You DO have local storage, just not batteries.
You tolerate interruptions that many would find acceptable in a system
that cost them big bux.

Nothing that you have said debunks my assertion that
widespread use of
rooftop solar without local storage is a fool's errand.
Nothing wrong with a hobby project. It's just not a solution
for the masses.


One thing that just occurred to me.
How does rooftop solar deal with 240V appliances in locations.
where 2X 120VAC is the norm, like the USA.
Seems like a huge complication to generate two separate 120VAC
outputs and try to figure out how to load share a house designed
with the ability to use either phase indiscriminately. But, if you
don't, the clothes dryer or electric stove won't work.
Converting water heating, HVAC, clothes dryer, etc, from electric
to gas is not feasible for existing houses.

The hobby project rolling around in my mind would consist
of about 17 RV batteries in series. Or maybe an electric car battery.
Buck convert it to 170VDC and use that to create 120VAC.
Problem is that neutral not directly connected to ground
probably violates all manner of safety codes.
Existing inverters have solved that problem.
On the input side, panel voltage set to something near
max battery voltage (~250VDC) at max insolation.
MPPT buck/boost controller to charge batteries.
May also want a second buck controller to bypass the batteries
and feed the 170VDC directly when insolation and load are high.
The objective is to keep voltages as high as possible everywhere
to minimize current-related efficiency losses.

Depending on usage patterns, it may be
cost effective to dump excess back into the grid, but that's not the
objective here.
The objective is to create a scalable solution to unload the grid
without destabilizing their generation and pricing models.

There are lotsa gotchas in the above concept that need to be addressed.
That's the fun of engineering.
With the 60' trees all around me, the project
will never get past the fantasy stage.

trader_4
Tue, 16
May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits the
maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing these?

When this setup was installed, according to a true RMS FLUKE meter,
it was generating over a thousand volts, DC. granted, that's with
both 'strings' and no load present on either of them.

The install manual for the hybrid inverter you referenced cleared
it up.

You obviously have no idea about what I wrote about. Yet, you
continue, and call me the troll? Laughable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_engineering

Cripes.. You could be almost anything, such a wide brush...

So, I will ask for my own clarification.. What do you specialize in?

It depends on what you need/want to use it for...


Show us the case studies. And besides, the whole thread was about
what is generally being done, not some fringe users.

Ahh, I see you've started moving goal posts early. Sorry about that.


--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

mike news May 2017 21:21:11 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

You don't have a commercial installation.

I don't have ANY installation, myself. But, the client does.
I shared pics previously of some aspects to its installation. The
pics were originally taken for 'promotional' purposes: advertising
for one of the companies I work for. I was provided copies.

You have a bunch of auction acquired stuff cobbled
together to make something that works for you.

No, I do not. The home owner doesn't either. The panels, inverter,
wiring, etc (except for my 'modbox') are sourced from actual
companies, directly purchased from them and/or authorized resellers.
Nothing from auction, ebay, etc. Installed by properly licensed
electricians. We aren't jake legs.

Nothing wrong with a hobby project; I do it all the time.
But that's not something you can do with a commercial
installation. For general use, you'll find your customers
more demanding.

It wasn't a hobby project...And wasn't my customer, either. I don't
own the company I did the work for.

You've described a situation where you have grid tie.

To reduce the clients electrical bill, yes.

You have decided that you can tolerate a 30-second loss of power
when the grid is down.

I didn't make any of the executive decisions. The client made that
decision.

You replaced battery storage with diesel LOCAL storage and a
generator to convert it to electrical energy.

Well, as I said, the generator comes online if no power is detected
on the mains, for 30 seconds. As long as the PV array is up, and my
box was working (or the battery bank now), that doesn't happen, so,
the generator doesn't run. The generator is propane, btw. Not Diesel.

You have not described what happens when the generator is running
and the cloud has passed, or the load dropped below what solar can
supply, or what happens when a new cloud arrives.

Sorry, I thought some of this was self explanatory. It would be to
most other electricians I know. I'll humour you though.

It's done by a few automatic interlock switches. If it detects a load
present from the grid and/or inverter for more than a preset amount
of time, it disconnects the generator and re-establishes connection
to the inverter and/or grid, depending on which unit has resumed
providing power. IF the power remains 'stable' for a preset period of
time after switch over, the generator is shut down. This prevents
unncessary switching and gen shutdown/restart when the power grid
and/or inverter is trying to come back up, but continues to fall back
out.

The inverter has one, the generator has one, too. And, of course, the
inverter has a manual switch that the home owner can access which
will disconnect it from the grid, whenever they want. I personally
wouldn't, since when it's up and running, it's able to save him a
power bill, but, that's his decision to make, not mine.

If the refrigerator starts, the current surge can drop the voltage
below your threshold and shut down your system. That lets the
panel voltage rise above the threshold. What do you do?

If the refrigerator starts? Well, you see, the problem with your
question is this:

It's a propane driven refrigerator. It *DOES* have a small battery to
provide power to the internal LED lighting, though. But, that doesn't
have anything whatsoever to do with the panel in the house. Infact,
it doesn't use *any* power from the house. Not a bit. No way to plug
it in, infact.

With the grid down and insolation low, you will see a lot of those
cycles.

No, they don't.

They can happen way short of 30 seconds apart. They'll
probably happen every time you turn on the electric stove

Again, no. The stove isn't electric. It's propane, too.

or air conditioner when insolation is low.

The air conditioner is propane, too. As is the heating system. They
do require a small amount of electrical energy to run blowers, but,
it doesn't put the drain on the panel you seem to be expecting it to.
They have very efficient motors for that...so, you don't even see the
lights dim for a second when one switches on.

Do you start the generator? Do you let the fridge try to restart
every few seconds?

The fridge is a self contained unit, that has a gas line fed to it.
It doesn't make use of household power and could care less if power
is even available to the house. It doesn't even need to be plugged in
for ignition purposes.

Many people reading this will conclude that they could tolerate
your solution.

I don't know what they can tolerate or not tolerate. This system
along with the house, etc, was custom built to the home owners
specifications. They wanted it done this way, they got what they
wanted. Would I personally do this myself? No.

I like the grid and all it affords. I'd require a hell of alot more
electrical power than he needs to run my computer lab, let alone my
work shop, or the house itself. (The shop and house are seperate
buildings). It would cost me a fortune, even with the people I know
and access to materials I have to be able to harness enough
'sunlight' to power my stuff. I'd have to factor in additional power
for my welding equipment, tube benders, etc in the shop.

They aren't exactly gentle when it comes to electrical power
consumption. Neither is my computer network for that matter. it
wasn't built with tree huggers in mind. It's very kilowatt friendly.
And, NONE of my appliances are so called 'off grid' ones. They ALL
use electricity. I have gas and electric heat, and, I'm not willing
to give up my electric comfy heat.

Then there's battery/generator maintance, additional costs in safe
wiring for the interlocks, etc. I see no real benefit to this for my
situation. I don't want to live 'off grid'; been there and done that
when I was alot younger than I am now. **** that ****, I like
creature comforts and modern technology and I'm not nearly as
financially '**** it all' as the client is. I've got enough tied up
in nearly instant on emergency power for this place as it is. And, I
only need that because of the computer equipment here. Some of it
MUST be able to function 24/7/365 days a year. UPS ensures computers
remain online and okay while the backup power switches online, in
case you were wondering, in MY house configuration. While there is a
small delay in generator coming online for me as well, there's NO
waiting for power to resume for these machines; they *never* noticed
power dropped out.

And, my generators are more than adequate to run my entire property,
at full power if I wanted to do so; without lag, hesitation or strain
on them. I planned ahead. Overkill, according to some, but, more amps
than you need is ALWAYS better than not enough.

I don't mind electricity at all, but, I have this unreasonable fear
personally about gas. I don't like the idea of an explosion.

People over in that other group posting pictures
of their cat would find it totally unacceptable. There are way
more of them than us.

I recently found the other newsgroup, myself. I was keeping tabs on
someone who's dead set on stalking me and punishing me for what he
feels are wrongs against him. But, heh, he initiated the problem with
me, he's simply bitten off more than he can chew.

In summary...

This should be fun.

You evaded the issues.

I've evaded nothing of the sort.

You DO have grid tie.

I'm personally tied to the grid, yes.

You DO have local storage, just not batteries.

Last time I checked, generators didn't store power. I have
generators, no batteries here. You're confusing me for the client.
They have both.

You tolerate interruptions that many would find acceptable in a
system that cost them big bux.

The client tolerates an interruption in power, yes. I do not.

Nothing wrong with a hobby project. It's just not a solution
for the masses.

It's not a hobby project.

One thing that just occurred to me.
How does rooftop solar deal with 240V appliances in locations.
where 2X 120VAC is the norm, like the USA.

Do you think the inverter is tied into a single leg? Think again.
It's a 240volt AC output device.

you don't, the clothes dryer or electric stove won't work.
Converting water heating, HVAC, clothes dryer, etc, from electric
to gas is not feasible for existing houses.

The house was built new with the intention of using gas appliances.
So...

That's the fun of engineering.
With the 60' trees all around me, the project
will never get past the fantasy stage.

That's an issue the client and myself, don't have. OTH, I do have a
huge dust problem here. I've planted some grass seeds recently
though, so I'm hoping that will become an issue of the past.

--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

trader_4
Tue, 16
May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 6:28:28 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
mike news May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do?
That *IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating
1000+ volts,

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits the
maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing these?

I'll clarify this for you, since you seem to be ignoring things, and,
I suspect you're doing so intentionally at this point. The PV array
consists of TWO strings. When tested together, in series, they
generate a little over 1000+ volts, DC, yes, they most certainly do.
The voltage drops by half and doubles the amperage inside the
combiner box on the lines which feed the inverter (parallel)

So, it's well within NEC specifications. The other line that comes
out of the combiner box keeps them in series to feed my 'modbox'.
It's not concerned with high amperage output, it needs the higher
voltage, instead. It all passed electrical inspection too. We didn't
pull any 'hide the ****' until the inspector leaves and continue
wiring.







I hope that clears things up.

The install manual for the hybrid inverter you referenced cleared
it up. It shows no examples of using it without a battery bank.
And the install instructions specifically say it must be used with
a battery bank.

Still waiting for examples of all the solar install companies
hawking the capability to power the house during the day with a
grid tied system without a battery bank. Still waiting for an app
note from one of the eqpt companies that shows using their gear to
power houses without the grid or a battery bank.



Building a PV system with neither local storage nor grid tie
is a fool's errand.

It depends on what you need/want to use it for...


Show us the case studies. And besides, the whole thread was about
what is generally being done, not some fringe users.





--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

On Wed, 17 May 2017 00:49:36 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

trader_4
Tue, 16
May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 6:28:28 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
mike news May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do?
That *IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating
1000+ volts,

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits the
maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing these?

I'll clarify this for you, since you seem to be ignoring things, and,
I suspect you're doing so intentionally at this point. The PV array
consists of TWO strings. When tested together, in series, they
generate a little over 1000+ volts, DC, yes, they most certainly do.
The voltage drops by half and doubles the amperage inside the
combiner box on the lines which feed the inverter (parallel)

So, it's well within NEC specifications. The other line that comes
out of the combiner box keeps them in series to feed my 'modbox'.
It's not concerned with high amperage output, it needs the higher
voltage, instead. It all passed electrical inspection too. We didn't
pull any 'hide the ****' until the inspector leaves and continue
wiring.


I am curious, which make and model of panel was used in this array?
How many panels?

On Wed, 17 May 2017 02:00:59 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

On Wed, 17 May 2017 00:49:36 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

trader_4
Tue, 16
May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 6:28:28 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
mike news May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do?
That *IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating
1000+ volts,

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits the
maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing these?

I'll clarify this for you, since you seem to be ignoring things, and,
I suspect you're doing so intentionally at this point. The PV array
consists of TWO strings. When tested together, in series, they
generate a little over 1000+ volts, DC, yes, they most certainly do.
The voltage drops by half and doubles the amperage inside the
combiner box on the lines which feed the inverter (parallel)

So, it's well within NEC specifications. The other line that comes
out of the combiner box keeps them in series to feed my 'modbox'.
It's not concerned with high amperage output, it needs the higher
voltage, instead. It all passed electrical inspection too. We didn't
pull any 'hide the ****' until the inspector leaves and continue
wiring.


I am curious, which make and model of panel was used in this array?
How many panels?

I would want to see what conductors he was using.

Stormin' Norman
Wed, 17 May 2017
02:00:59 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I am curious, which make and model of panel was used in this
array?

https://us.sunpower.com/solar-panels...-solar-panels/

How many panels?

18 panels, total. Two strings, 9 per.




--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

On Wed, 17 May 2017 10:00:04 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

Stormin' Norman
Wed, 17 May 2017
02:00:59 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I am curious, which make and model of panel was used in this
array?

https://us.sunpower.com/solar-panels...-solar-panels/

How many panels?

18 panels, total. Two strings, 9 per.

Thanks, that is interesting.

Have you wired all panels in series to get your approximate 1kv? Does
your step down transformer then bring it down to 220-240v?

What is the length of your run at 1kv? What size conductors? Are you
using a Teflon insulated cable?

Is the array roof or ground mounted?

Stormin' Norman
Wed, 17 May 2017
13:00:41 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Wed, 17 May 2017 10:00:04 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

Stormin' Norman
m Wed, 17 May 2017
02:00:59 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I am curious, which make and model of panel was used in this
array?

https://us.sunpower.com/solar-panels...ies-solar-pane
ls/

How many panels?

18 panels, total. Two strings, 9 per.

Thanks, that is interesting.

Thanks

Have you wired all panels in series to get your approximate 1kv?

Yes, to run my modbox. Otherwise, they are parallel for the
controller that runs the inverter. 1kv is too much for the
controller or the inverter. But, my modbox needs that additional
voltage to be able to emulate a small battery bank. It reduces and
converts the 1kv to 48volts dc with a higher amperage than the PV
array can provide. It was tied into the battery bank terminals.

http://solar.schneider-electric.com/...t-mppt-80-600/

You have your choice of the control panel...

http://solar.schneider-electric.com/...rol-panel-scp/

Or this version of the control panel that requires either a laptop
or Android device.

http://solar.schneider-electric.com/...conext-combox/

They're sold seperately.

Does your step down transformer then bring it down to 220-240v?

The inverter does, yes. It's transformerless, though. And, a
controller board keeps the PV array from overloading it. I figured you might ask about that, so
here's the board specifics. [g] It also maintaines the battery bank (formally my modbox)


What is the length of your run at 1kv? What size conductors? Are
you using a Teflon insulated cable?

Less than 50ft total run per string. #10, the cable is rated
specifically for this work. This is one of the suppliers we used,
for the cabling...

http://www.windynation.com/Solar-Cab...369?p=YzE9Mjc=

We opted for #10 because our strings exceeded 7 by 2.

http://www.windynation.com/products/z_1369_1_0.jpg

Is the array roof or ground mounted?

roof mounted. And the metal support structure is grounded for safety.

I do not work for either company, I'm just one of several people
very pleased with the products they sell.


--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 5:22:41 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:


You don't have a commercial installation.
You have a bunch of auction acquired stuff cobbled
together to make something that works for you.
Nothing wrong with a hobby project; I do it all the time.
But that's not something you can do with a commercial
installation. For general use, you'll find your customers
more demanding.

You've described a situation where you have grid tie.
You have decided that you can tolerate a 30-second loss of power
when the grid is down.
You replaced battery storage with diesel LOCAL storage and a generator
to convert it to electrical energy.
You have not described what happens when the generator is running
and the cloud has passed, or the load dropped below what solar can
supply, or what happens when a new cloud arrives.

Take a look at the curve he
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar...nel-efficiency

When solar becomes insufficient, the operating point is past the knee
of the curve. Small changes in load current can change the voltage
dramatically.
If the refrigerator starts, the current surge can drop the voltage
below your threshold and shut down your system. That lets the panel
voltage rise above the threshold. What do you do?
With the grid down and insolation low, you will see a lot of those
cycles. They can happen way short of 30 seconds apart. They'll
probably happen every time you turn on the electric stove
or air conditioner when insolation is low.
Do you start the generator? Do you let the fridge try to restart
every few seconds?

Engineering is a process of defining a problem and providing a ROBUST
solution that meets the needs of your entire customer base.
Sure, you can restrict your customer base to those who want a generator
in their back yard and tolerate limit-cycle oscillations in their
utility supply. A commercial supplier cannot do that.

Even residential customers can't. So far, Diesel hasn't provided us
with examples from all the solar installers that offer a residential
grid-tied system that also supplies power to the house when the grid
is down, without a battery bank. If this was possible, practical, it
would be a powerful selling point. But it isn't, with the cloud
problem, the rainy day problem, etc, being the major, insurmountable
problem. Like you say, customers aren't going to tolerate brown outs,
total outages, from passing clouds. And during a power outage, when
do you need power the most? Typically at night, when the sun isn't
shining. That's why you don't see installs that offer power without
the grid or batteries.

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 8:31:34 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue, 16
May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits the
maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing these?

When this setup was installed, according to a true RMS FLUKE meter,
it was generating over a thousand volts, DC. granted, that's with
both 'strings' and no load present on either of them.


Well then it's in violation of the NEC.



The install manual for the hybrid inverter you referenced cleared
it up.

You obviously have no idea about what I wrote about. Yet, you
continue, and call me the troll? Laughable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_engineering

Cripes.. You could be almost anything, such a wide brush...

So, I will ask for my own clarification.. What do you specialize in?

It depends on what you need/want to use it for...


Show us the case studies. And besides, the whole thread was about
what is generally being done, not some fringe users.

Ahh, I see you've started moving goal posts early. Sorry about that.


Still waiting for those examples of grid tied solar that powers the
house with the grid down and no batteries. If it was possible,
all the solar install companies would be hawking it. So far,
you can't produce one. And I provided you the install manual for
the hybrid inveerter that you cited, where it only shows installs
with a battery bank and where it specifically says it must be used
with a battery bank.

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 8:53:01 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue, 16
May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 6:28:28 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
mike news May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do?
That *IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating
1000+ volts,

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits the
maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing these?

I'll clarify this for you, since you seem to be ignoring things, and,
I suspect you're doing so intentionally at this point. The PV array
consists of TWO strings. When tested together, in series, they
generate a little over 1000+ volts, DC, yes, they most certainly do.
The voltage drops by half and doubles the amperage inside the
combiner box on the lines which feed the inverter (parallel)

More gibberish. If they are wired in series and installed that way,
then it's a violation, because 600V is the max permitted voltage
between any two conductors. If you wired them in series as an
experiment, which sounds rather bizarre, then who cares what the voltage is?
And we are talking about real residential solar systems, installed
to code, not a hack job, are we not?

trader_4
Thu, 18
May 2017 00:24:27 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 8:31:34 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue,
16 May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits
the maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing
these?

When this setup was installed, according to a true RMS FLUKE
meter, it was generating over a thousand volts, DC. granted,
that's with both 'strings' and no load present on either of them.


Well then it's in violation of the NEC.

No, it's not. It's a two string array. I was measuring the combined
voltage from both strings. I did say BOTH strings and no load
present on either of them, Didn't I. Why, yes, Yes I did...

Reading comprehension, right?

You obviously have no idea about what I wrote about. Yet, you
continue, and call me the troll? Laughable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_engineering

Cripes.. You could be almost anything, such a wide brush...

So, I will ask for my own clarification.. What do you specialize
in?

Don't wanna tell me? Are you still in college to become an electrical
engineer or something?

Still waiting for those examples of grid tied solar that powers
the house with the grid down and no batteries.

I already answered that for you. While it wasn't using batteries, it
was using something which emulated a small bank, as long as the PV
arrays were up and going.

If it was possible, all the solar install companies would be
hawking it.

Already discussed that too. Perhaps you should consider switching
over to a real usenet client so you can keep better track of replies?

far, you can't produce one. And I provided you the install manual
for the hybrid inveerter that you cited, where it only shows
installs with a battery bank and where it specifically says it
must be used with a battery bank.

OR! A device which can use the arrays to emulate a battery bank.
Are you sure you're an electrical engineer? I thought I was going to
be able to learn something useful from you, but, so far, I've learned
nothing new from you. I'm not impressed.



-- I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet. Please
be patient. I will get to you shortly.

Diesel
Hs8Wif158Y09M3f43yN
nS8u4 Thu, 18 May 2017 00:19:33 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

http://www.windynation.com/Solar-Cab...369?p=YzE9Mjc=

We opted for #10 because our strings exceeded 7 by 2.

It's #12, my apologies. Confused this one for another job I was looking at.

Amperage is well within limits:

http://www.windynation.com/products/z_1369_1_0.jpg


--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

trader_4
Thu, 18
May 2017 00:32:20 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 8:53:01 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue,
16 May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 6:28:28 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
mike news 16 May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do?
That *IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating
1000+ volts,

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits
the maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing
these?

I'll clarify this for you, since you seem to be ignoring things,
and, I suspect you're doing so intentionally at this point. The
PV array consists of TWO strings. When tested together, in
series, they generate a little over 1000+ volts, DC, yes, they
most certainly do. The voltage drops by half and doubles the
amperage inside the combiner box on the lines which feed the
inverter (parallel)

More gibberish.

Are you sure you're an electrical engineer?


And we are talking about real residential solar
systems, installed to code, not a hack job, are we not?

It *IS* installed to code, passed inspection just fine. Not a hack
job, no. Far too much money spent in equipment alone to justify a
half assing installation.





--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

On Thu, 18 May 2017 00:19:33 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

Stormin' Norman
Wed, 17 May 2017
13:00:41 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Wed, 17 May 2017 10:00:04 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

Stormin' Norman
om Wed, 17 May 2017
02:00:59 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I am curious, which make and model of panel was used in this
array?

https://us.sunpower.com/solar-panels...ies-solar-pane
ls/

How many panels?

18 panels, total. Two strings, 9 per.

Thanks, that is interesting.

Thanks

Have you wired all panels in series to get your approximate 1kv?

Yes, to run my modbox. Otherwise, they are parallel for the
controller that runs the inverter. 1kv is too much for the
controller or the inverter. But, my modbox needs that additional
voltage to be able to emulate a small battery bank. It reduces and
converts the 1kv to 48volts dc with a higher amperage than the PV
array can provide. It was tied into the battery bank terminals.

http://solar.schneider-electric.com/...t-mppt-80-600/

You have your choice of the control panel...

http://solar.schneider-electric.com/...rol-panel-scp/

Or this version of the control panel that requires either a laptop
or Android device.

http://solar.schneider-electric.com/...conext-combox/

They're sold seperately.

Does your step down transformer then bring it down to 220-240v?

The inverter does, yes. It's transformerless, though. And, a
controller board keeps the PV array from overloading it. I figured you might ask about that, so
here's the board specifics. [g] It also maintaines the battery bank (formally my modbox)


What is the length of your run at 1kv? What size conductors? Are
you using a Teflon insulated cable?

Less than 50ft total run per string. #10, the cable is rated
specifically for this work. This is one of the suppliers we used,
for the cabling...

http://www.windynation.com/Solar-Cab...369?p=YzE9Mjc=

We opted for #10 because our strings exceeded 7 by 2.

http://www.windynation.com/products/z_1369_1_0.jpg

Is the array roof or ground mounted?

roof mounted. And the metal support structure is grounded for safety.

I do not work for either company, I'm just one of several people
very pleased with the products they sell.

Thanks very much for taking the time to put all this information
together, tomorrow morning when I have more energy, I will scour all
of it.

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 10:38

The closest one to me is in a school zone. Permanently affixed to
a pole, across the street from the power distribution system.

I don't have any idea how cities deal with paying for power for
street lights and traffic signals. I see very few with meters on 'em.

The lights are just tied t the grid. the power company charged X per connection......

if its a light that varies depending on season, they calcuate that too.....

On 5/17/2017 5:46 PM, Diesel wrote:
I already answered that for you. While it wasn't using batteries, it
was using something which emulated a small bank, as long as the PV
arrays were up and going.

I'd like to hear more details about how it works
and the algorithms for dealing with changes in insolation.

On 5/17/2017 6:12 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
Thanks very much for taking the time to put all this information
together, tomorrow morning when I have more energy, I will scour all
of it.
That wouldn't happen if you had battery backup!
Classic! ROTFL ;-)

trader_4 news:6ef03d59-7e56-413e-92e8-
Thu, 18 May 2017 00:24:27 GMT in
alt.home.repair, wrote:

Still waiting for those examples of grid tied solar that powers the
house with the grid down and no batteries.

I find your added condition to be very amusing. Previously, you
stated (and quoted several outdated sites as your sources) that
without grid power, the system didn't work. So, I asked you what you
thought the battery bank(s) were for, and heard crickets as a
response. it's no surprise, why, either.

I brought up the usage of battery banks along with what I call the
'modbox' to provide power when the grid is down. You further
commented (and again used outdated sites for reference) that the
inverter isn't allowed to supply power if it's grid tied while the
grid is down, and again, you were wrong. I asked you for the second
time when you mentioned that what you thought the battery banks were
for. Crickets, again. As expected.

You have no first hand knowledge of this subject, and, evidently, you
don't even understand what my modbox is doing, despite devices VERY
CLOSE TO IT already on the market, right now! Have you seen the
extremely small portable jump starter kits that will fit in your
glovebox? They typically run on a 5000MA lithium battery pack
producing less than 12volts usually, and, are somehow able (as if it
were magic) to provide 12volts DC at 400amps (or more) to jump start
your car. Obviously the battery pack they're using doesn't have
400AMPS on it to help you out, but, with some electronics in a very
small physical package, it's able to come up with it.

My modbox is very close to one of those in design principle, except
that it outputs 48volts DC (under load!) at 120+amps with variable
input power from approx 800 to 1200 volts, DC (with approx 3amps!) In
other words, it's emulating a small battery bank.

Obviously the more voltage you can feed it, the more amps it can
deliver. Anything less than 800 or so volts though will cause it to
go into a shutdown condition and it'll provide nothing. It will do
it's best to keep the voltage at 48volts, under LOAD. So, it has to
have a minimum of 800 volts at approx 3 amps or it will not be able
to do it's job, and, rather than risk undervolting, it'll shutdown.

Anything over 1200volts will also cause a shutdown condition, so that
it doesn't get fried. Lightning strikes, etc being the exception.
Situations like that will cause it's internals to sacrifice
themselves, but, no guarantee is made that the inrush current will be
stopped as it does so.

Externally, you MUST connect two! 600volt DC PV strings, and,
internally it sets them up for series to provide it power. So, at no
time, is more than 600volts coming on any lines going to it, or out
of it.

--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

mike news 2017 04:10:42 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On 5/17/2017 6:12 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
Thanks very much for taking the time to put all this information
together, tomorrow morning when I have more energy, I will scour all
of it.
That wouldn't happen if you had battery backup!
Classic! ROTFL ;-)

Which is ironic on the face of it, as Trader initially said grid tie
can't run without the grid. So that would make a battery bank
(emulated or real) rather pointless. ROFL, yet, they exist along with
the inverters able to run on them, when the grid is down. Without
backfeeding into the dead grid. As I wrote, initially.



--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

Stormin' Norman
Thu, 18 May 2017
01:12:48 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Thanks very much for taking the time to put all this information
together, tomorrow morning when I have more energy, I will scour
all of it.

You're very welcome. Btw, for NEC code purposes, the series wiring is
done on the internals of my modbox. In other words, you run both
strings to it. And it's #12 for most of the power input side of the
system. PV array strings, etc. The voltage is upto 600volts per string,
but the amperage is low. The output on the modbox and the battery bank
uses much larger wire as it's carrying lower voltage, but, MUCH higher
amperage. The output side of the inverter is also a larger capacity
wire, but not as large as the output side of the modbox or a battery
bank. Since it's being tied into some switch gear (interlocks,
disconnects, etc) and eventually winding up at your panel.


--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

mike news 2017 04:02:34 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On 5/17/2017 5:46 PM, Diesel wrote:
I already answered that for you. While it wasn't using batteries,
it was using something which emulated a small bank, as long as
the PV arrays were up and going.

I'd like to hear more details about how it works and the
algorithms for dealing with changes in insolation.

It's very similar to the 'mini' or glovebox size jump starter
packages for your car. But, instead of using a small lithium battery,
it uses power from the PV array. It does require a minimum of 800
volts upto 1200volts and can run on a little less than 3amps, but,
3amps keeps it happy. As long as the array can do that, it's golden.

In other words, it requires an array with two strings, each capable
of close to 600volts. You bring BOTH strings to it, and, it'll
internally treat them as a series connection, to get the higher
voltage it requires.

It makes more DC voltage than those devices, but, quite a bit less
amperage. And, as long as you can feed it a constant voltage supply,
it'll continue to provide the required output. Unlike the mini jump
starter kits.

I plan to get a patent on it at some point (if at all possible) and
market it to various solar companies, pending they aren't already
developing their own versions of it. So, I'm not going to get too
specific on it's internals, if that's what you're wanting to know
about.

Suffice to say, the modbox will be coming back to my workshop, when I
get the chance to visit the client and retake possession of it. They
don't need it's services anymore, they have an actual battery bank
now, capable of delivering 600amps.


--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

On Wed, 17 May 2017 21:10:42 -0700, mike wrote:

On 5/17/2017 6:12 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
Thanks very much for taking the time to put all this information
together, tomorrow morning when I have more energy, I will scour all
of it.
That wouldn't happen if you had battery backup!
Classic! ROTFL ;-)

I do, but they need to be recharged each night.... ;-)

On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 8:50:10 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Thu, 18
May 2017 00:32:20 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 8:53:01 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue,
16 May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 6:28:28 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
mike news 16 May 2017 05:32:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:


Or, am I confused on what electrical engineers actually do?
That *IS* possible, since i'm not one.


For a given insolation, a PV panel looks more like a current
source than a voltage source.

Depending on how your PV array is wired, it can be generating
1000+ volts,

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits
the maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing
these?

I'll clarify this for you, since you seem to be ignoring things,
and, I suspect you're doing so intentionally at this point. The
PV array consists of TWO strings. When tested together, in
series, they generate a little over 1000+ volts, DC, yes, they
most certainly do. The voltage drops by half and doubles the
amperage inside the combiner box on the lines which feed the
inverter (parallel)

More gibberish.

Are you sure you're an electrical engineer?


And we are talking about real residential solar
systems, installed to code, not a hack job, are we not?

It *IS* installed to code, passed inspection just fine. Not a hack
job, no. Far too much money spent in equipment alone to justify a
half assing installation.


It may have passed inspection, but it's not in conformance with NEC
code, which almost all jurisdictions use, if it's generating voltages
above 600V. What is the compelling reason to go above 600V anyway?

On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 8:50:10 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Thu, 18
May 2017 00:24:27 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 8:31:34 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue,
16 May 2017 19:28:13 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not if it's a residential solar system, which is what we are
talking about here and it complies with the NEC. NEC limits
the maximum voltage to 600V. And you claim to be installing
these?

When this setup was installed, according to a true RMS FLUKE
meter, it was generating over a thousand volts, DC. granted,
that's with both 'strings' and no load present on either of them.


Well then it's in violation of the NEC.

No, it's not. It's a two string array. I was measuring the combined
voltage from both strings. I did say BOTH strings and no load
present on either of them, Didn't I. Why, yes, Yes I did...

Reading comprehension, right?

No, BS comprehension. Who the hell cares what the combined voltage
of a solar array is if it's not INSTALLED THAT WAY? That's like me
saying I have 1200V in my house, because I can add the voltage drops
across ten 120V loads.



You obviously have no idea about what I wrote about. Yet, you
continue, and call me the troll? Laughable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_engineering

Cripes.. You could be almost anything, such a wide brush...

So, I will ask for my own clarification.. What do you specialize
in?

Don't wanna tell me? Are you still in college to become an electrical
engineer or something?

Still waiting for those examples of grid tied solar that powers
the house with the grid down and no batteries.

I already answered that for you. While it wasn't using batteries, it
was using something which emulated a small bank, as long as the PV
arrays were up and going.

Maybe I missed that part. What exactly "emulates" a small battery bank?
Seems logical that one would just use a small battery bank, which by
the way is exactly what the install instructions call for. Do you always
have to reinvent the wheel?




If it was possible, all the solar install companies would be
hawking it.

Already discussed that too. Perhaps you should consider switching
over to a real usenet client so you can keep better track of replies?

Still waiting for the examples of all the installs, links to all the
app notes from eqpt suppliers on how you can have grid tied solar
and power the house with the grid down and no batteries.


far, you can't produce one. And I provided you the install manual
for the hybrid inveerter that you cited, where it only shows
installs with a battery bank and where it specifically says it
must be used with a battery bank.

OR! A device which can use the arrays to emulate a battery bank.
Are you sure you're an electrical engineer?

Are you sure you know WTF you're talking about? You simply claimed
that he had a system that was grid tied, that powered the house without
a battery bank when the grid is down. Only now are you bringing up
this "emulation" thing. Nuff said. And if this "emulation" thing is
true, why emulate a small battery bank instead of just buying one?


I thought I was going to
be able to learn something useful from you, but, so far, I've learned
nothing new from you. I'm not impressed.


Some people are incapable of being educated. Still, I've provided you
with a lot info here, like the fact that you can't find examples of
what you claim, which is eqpt companies or solar companies hawking
grid tied solar that powers the house when the grid is down, without
batteries. Ever hear of clouds? I also educated you on the fact that
1000V in residential solar systems, which you claim too, is a violation
of NEC. Now of course you claim it's not actually wired that way,
so then of course it's just a BS number.

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 12:04:04 AM UTC-4, mike wrote:
On 5/17/2017 5:46 PM, Diesel wrote:
I already answered that for you. While it wasn't using batteries, it
was using something which emulated a small bank, as long as the PV
arrays were up and going.

I'd like to hear more details about how it works
and the algorithms for dealing with changes in insolation.

Never mind the algorithms, who emulates a small battery bank?
What installer would violate the install instructions of the
hybrid inverter that specifically says it must be used with a
battery bank? Also the choice of words, used "something" to
emulate a battery bank is probative. Also, why didn't we hear
about this "emulation" in the beginning of this whole discussion,
but instead it comes up now?

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 6:29:07 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4 news:6ef03d59-7e56-413e-92e8-
Thu, 18 May 2017 00:24:27 GMT in
alt.home.repair, wrote:

Still waiting for those examples of grid tied solar that powers the
house with the grid down and no batteries.

I find your added condition to be very amusing. Previously, you
stated (and quoted several outdated sites as your sources) that
without grid power, the system didn't work.

Again, you fail in the concept of CONTEXT. Before I made my remarks,
before Mike made his YOU posted this:


"He has no battery bank, so, during the nighttime, and on very cloudy
days, he'd require the grid to make up the difference. If he elects
to install a large enough battery bank, he wouldn't require the grid
during the evenings or when it's cloudy outside. "

Capiche? I was talking about YOUR case, where you said he has no
battery bank.

Diesel: I have a car with no engine.

Others: Well then the car can't be driven.

Diesel: You're wrong, you just said that cars can't be driven.

Typical.





So, I asked you what you
thought the battery bank(s) were for, and heard crickets as a
response. it's no surprise, why, either.

No crickets. I immediately showed you that your own link to the
supplier of that hybrid converter only shows it being used with
batteries. I went further, I supplied the install manual, where
it specifically says it must be used with batteries.



I brought up the usage of battery banks along with what I call the
'modbox' to provide power when the grid is down. You further
commented (and again used outdated sites for reference) that the
inverter isn't allowed to supply power if it's grid tied while the
grid is down, and again, you were wrong. I asked you for the second
time when you mentioned that what you thought the battery banks were
for. Crickets, again. As expected.


Good grief, you're a weasel. You specifically said the system you
were talking about HAD NO BATTERIES.



You have no first hand knowledge of this subject,

I can read the install manual, read what the supplier of that hybrid
inverter says. I can also see that no solar install companies, no
suppliers are hawking grid tied systems that power the house with
the grid down and no batteries. ABSOLUTELY consistent with what I've
been saying.

and, evidently, you
don't even understand what my modbox is doing, despite devices VERY
CLOSE TO IT already on the market, right now! Have you seen the
extremely small portable jump starter kits that will fit in your
glovebox? They typically run on a 5000MA lithium battery pack
producing less than 12volts usually, and, are somehow able (as if it
were magic) to provide 12volts DC at 400amps (or more) to jump start
your car. Obviously the battery pack they're using doesn't have
400AMPS on it to help you out, but, with some electronics in a very
small physical package, it's able to come up with it.

My modbox is very close to one of those in design principle, except
that it outputs 48volts DC (under load!) at 120+amps with variable
input power from approx 800 to 1200 volts, DC (with approx 3amps!) In
other words, it's emulating a small battery bank.

Sure, we all believe you built a "mod box" to emulate a small battery
bank instead of just using a battery bank.



Obviously the more voltage you can feed it, the more amps it can
deliver.

Again demonstrating that you're in way over your head here.
You don't understand electricity 101.