On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:38:11 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Sun, 14
May 2017 17:20:37 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:
I'm not confusing anything at all.
Yes, you are, intentionally I suspect. You hate being wrong. 
I didn't say it could. I specifically said, "that can provide
power without the grid".
Oh, please. Here you go, distorting, taking
out of context, what the discussion was about.
I was waiting for you to make more unfounded accusations. Looks like
I didn't have to wait very long.
Again, thanks for proving yourself wrong.
I realize you wish that was the case, but, it's not.
See above. With the controller (an additional expense) you can
provide power to the inverter via the PV array without using
batteries.
Only you are claiming that, not the company.
I'm only claiming it because i've done it. The company could too,
but, they'd have to sell you a small box to do the tie in for you.
More work on their part. They may not recoup the costs.
Obviously if this were possible at a reasonable cost, every solar
install company would be hawking it, because it would be a MAJOR
advantage. The fact that so far, you can't produce a single example
speaks volumes.
It *can* couple a battery bank to it. What the controller
is actually doing is limiting the incoming voltage coming off the
PV array so it doesn't blow the inverter to pieces.
I'm starting to see why many? others have declared you a troll
and binned you. I'm not quite ready to do that, myself.
I've already seen why you are a troll, starting
with the crowd you dragged in here.
Like I told you, previously (even offered to use crayons), I didn't
drag anyone here. Now I'll use crayons and write in a way a small
child could understand with ease: I followed them here. You're
welcome.
Yes, I'm sure he reports back to you regularly.
Me personally? No, but, he does report to one of the companies that
cuts me a paycheck...I could just take a drive to the jobsite and ask
him myself, but, why bother doing so when I can just ask one of the
people above me?
According to the install instructions for that
hybrid converter, which "I" supplied, it says
a battery bank is mandatory. Are they lying?
Well, they're aren't being completely honest. That *could* be blamed
on the advertising dept not keeping in synch with the r&D dept,
though. I've been in such situations myself with a software
company...
Sure, ROFL. The company has a converter that can be used to power
the house without the grid or a battery bank, yet they don't tell
anyone.
Did you ignore the lines following "It's not a problem" on
purpose, or? Just how do you suppose it's able to power his house
on the battery bank, without backfeeding the grid? Some kind of
magic?
I don't claim to be an expert of the exact
details of the isolation problem.
That was obvious, the you aren't an expert on this subject, part.
I can tell
you that you can find link after link from
solar companies, installers, green energy experts
citing that as one of the problems and reason
why the solar arrays being installed every day
can't operate without the grid.
So the battery bank is for? crickets, you said, right?
You said you can power the house WITHOUT A BATTERY BANK.
This is real simple. Do you agree that if you
could run the array, supply power to the house,
without the grid being up and without a battery
bank, that it would be a powerful sales tool?
Not really.
it's another device the manufacturer would either have to
incorporate into the inverter itself, or sell seperately. Without any
guarantee of recouping their monies.
Good grief, you just charge the customer. And you just claimed
that the hybrid inverter that you cited does exactly that. Of course
the company actually says the inverter must be used with a battery
bank!
If they opted to just include it
in the inverter, it would require a larger inverter and increase
costs. Making them, not as competitive as another.
You claimed it was in that inverter you installed. The company
disagrees. And if it could be included for any reasonable cost,
many customers would want it and pay for it. Customers are shelling
out $5K+ for generators aren't they? So, why wouldn't many customers
pay extra for this option that you claim is easily doable? Where
are the examples of all the solar installers hawking it? Instead,
every one I've seen says that with grid tied solar and without a
battery bank, if the grid goes down, you have no power. And clouds,
not being able to deliver continuous power to the house is an
insurmountable problem.
If and when solar 'takes off',
Most reasonable people would say that's already happening. I see
installs all over the place just driving down the road. There are
1 mil residential installs in the US, 15 GWatts a year going in,
42 Gwatts total. Who's behind the times here?
then, they might want to seriously
consider making a few design changes, and/or selling the unit
seperately. As it is presently, it's very specific to the PV array
and the inverter you wish to tie it into.
You still have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?
I know that you haven't shown us a single application example from
a solar install company that shows a residential system that is grid
tied, without battery banks, that has power to the house when the
grid is down. Also no app notes from an eqpt maker either. The one
link you provided showed exactly the opposite, that their hybrid
inverter must be installed with a battery bank.
Homeowner's would love it.
Not enough home owners are buying what's already available...
Good grief. There are 1 mil solar installs in the USA, generating
42 GWatts of power. You probably don't know it because you're in
TN, where there isn't as much subsidization as there is in many
other parts of the country.
You would have power when your grid connected
neighbor did not. So, just show us some of them.
If you can't, case closed.
I already did. You looked all over the site, remember?
You've showed us nothing. You provided a link to a whole website.
I played your game a bit, looked at the 3 cases they show. Not
one of them was grid tied, without a battery bank and offered power
during grid outages. The hybrid inverter you cited, I PROVIDED THE
INSTALL INSTRUCTION LINK and it clearly says it must be used with
a battery bank.
Show us all these installation examples that feature solar power
without the grid and without a battery bank. Crickets.....
Meanwhile we have these that confirm exactly what I said:
http://www.energymatters.com.au/resi...me-solar-faqs/
What happens with grid connect systems during a blackout?
The grid connect inverter will automatically shut itself off within a few milliseconds of a blackout, to avoid the potential of a dangerous €śbrown-out€ť in your home and to prevent back feeding into the grid. Therefore even though you have a solar system during a blackout you will not have power available. If you want to keep on having electricity available during a blackout then you would need to have back up batteries installed as well, which will add to the cost of the system.
http://www.solarray.com/CompletePack...atteries_T.php
Grid-Tie without batteries:
These systems offer lower cost and higher efficiency for those wanting to just sell power (turn the meter backwards). Since these systems don't have batteries, they don't offer power backup. When the grid goes down, they go down.
https://www.solarenergyworld.com/faq...making-energy/
If there is a power outage, will my solar system keep making energy?
Many people considering going solar ask if a solar system works during a power outage. If you have a solar battery system as well as a solar PV system, your power will continue to work. However, since your system is grid-tied, for safety reasons, if there is a power outage your solar system will automatically shut off when the power goes out. Solar batteries can add as much as 30% to the cost of a solar system presently, so most homeowners do not go with this option.
http://www.solargreen.net.au/blog/do...ng-a-blackout-
One of the questions people ask us when installing grid connected solar power systems is: Do they keep my power on during a blackout?
Alas, no. When the grid goes down, a grid connected solar array goes down. This is because the grid connected inverter which converts DC photovoltaic power to AC household current, is designed to trip out during a blackout and not feed power back to the grid (saving a linesmans life if he is working on a power line that is down nearby).
http://blogs.edf.org/energyexchange/...he-next-sandy/
An unfortunate reality
When Superstorm Sandy hit, residential and commercial PV owners were frustrated upon realizing that their solar panels were rendered useless without a functioning central grid, even when the sun was shining brightly.
Generators powered by fossil fuels dont necessarily hold up any better in the wake of a devastating storm. They certainly can perform as true emergency workhorses if they reach hard-hit areas. But they are noisy, polluting and, unlike solar, dependent on fuel, which in the wake of Sandy quickly became hard to find and expensive.
It is a common belief that simply installing solar panels is enough to keep the lights on during a blackout, but the truth is the majority of PV systems today lose all functionality when the grid goes down. Currently, most on-site PV systems are so-called €śgrid-tied systems€ť that interact with the wider utility grid through an inverter. While its commonly understood that the grid supplies and absorbs excess energy from the PV system, it is less commonly known that it also serves the critical function of balancing the output of the PV system. More specifically, the PV system and inverter rely on the electric grid to constantly maintain voltage and frequency within appropriate limits as sunlight intensity fluctuates throughout the day.
https://thirdsunsolar.com/residentia...in-a-blackout/
Does solar work in a power outage?
There are two reasons that ordinary grid-tied solar will not work during a grid failure. The first is a technical reason and the second is a safety and regulatory issue.
First and foremost is the technical reason. The electronics that control a solar electric system constantly adjust voltage and current in order to keep the panels operating at their most efficient and powerful operating point through a range of varying sunlight conditions. To do this, the system needs to be able to produce quantities of power that are not dependent on how much your house is actually using at the time. In a grid-connected system, that excess power is put back onto the grid for others to use, and your utility credits you on your bill for that power.
Solar power output varies directly with sunlight levels. So, even if you disregard the need for efficiency, connecting this variable resource directly to your homes electrical system would cause your lights to blink, damage your refrigerator, and wreak havoc on your computers and television..
The second reason that solar shuts down during a blackout is safety.
(Which is exactly what I said, that the insurmountable problem is that
the output of the array varies and people and their appliances are not
going to tolerate brownouts or total loss of power from a passing cloud
from an array without the grid and without a battery bank.)
Capiche?