On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 2:42:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:02:34 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 11:55:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:18:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


Does their own convenience include getting flight crews to where they
are needed for a flight? That apparently is what happened here.

The airline's failure to plan does not constitute an emergency for me.

How do you know it was a failure to plan? If a plane that was supposed
to arrive in some city doesn't get there because of a problem with the
equipment or they had to make an emergency landing because of some other
asshole passenger, then they may have no flight crew in that city for
a plane that needs to leave later in the day. In that case, they have
to get one that's available from somewhere.


That happens often enough that they should have a better plan,

And what exactly would that "better plan be"? To have a spare crew
sitting around at each airport, waiting, on the slim chance that
they would be needed? Are you willing to pay for that in ticket cost?

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 3:57:42 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:23 AM, trader_4 wrote:



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all along.
It's possible that only came up after people had boarded. Once this
guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they should have
asked to see his license and if he showed it, then selected another
random person. That seems like a reasonable thing that could have
avoided this mess.


If they did not know until the passengers were seated, they are dumber
than I thought. It is still poor planning on the part of the airline
and someone should be punished

Nice Monday morning quarterbacking. They needed those 4 employees
because of a problem in KY. Could you foresee that? IDK exactly
when UAL first knew they had a problem and needed those 4 extra
crew, but you're assuming they had plenty of time. It's possible
they only knew of it shortly before this plane was to depart.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:02:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:44:23 -0400, Frank "frank wrote:

On 4/11/2017 10:10 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/11/2017 6:20 AM, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

I heard it was not overbooked but the airline wanted seats for its own
employees to get to their jobs.

Story still developing so we will see how it ends. Guy said he was
important Dr. but who knows if he is telling the truth.

If airline did do it for their own convenience it will cost them a
bundle.



If that flight crew was needed to keep the schedules rolling, I am not
sure it was just "for their convenience". But, nobody should have been
boarded that might need to get bumped voluntarily or not. Do that
before the jetway.

If that were the case, why did they oversell the flight? Are they so
disorganized that they cannot foresee these things?
Short answer?
Yes. They ROUTINELY overbook these flights, counting on some
passengers not showing up. Then when they need to move crew members at
the last minute the brown stuff hits the fan. Sounds like the flight
crew movement was last minute - possibly THEY had been bumped from a
previous flight (which happens more often than you'd believe). They
bounce the crew to accomodate passengers, counting on a light load on
a following flight - then end up with it overbooked too. Then they
don't offer enough incentive for someone to figure it's worth while
taking a later flight.
Offer to put them up at a classt hotel and give them tickets to a
baseball game or something, and a guaranteed morning flight, and
they'd have to fight off the volunteers.

They basically did that, offering $800 and got no takers.

On 4/12/2017 7:20 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 1:44:40 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2017 1:17 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

That was sort of my thinking. Airplanes often get delayed for various
reasons not under control. The weather could be bad, or for some reason
the airplane could have mechanical problems, or even a bomb threat. How
many days was it that all planes were grounded after 9/11 ?

If someone absolutly has to be at a place, they should be set up atleast
a day or two sooner.

As far as the planning on the airlines part, there could have been crew
problems at the other airport. Maybe the crew had a wreck or some
medical problems or family problems.

I worked at a plant that needed to run 24/7 as to shut it down,
especially under under controlled conditions would have cost over a
million dollars. We don't usually get much snow in NC, but one day we
got 12 inches. Very few could get into work or out of the plant (around
400 or more people on a normal shift change each way). The ones there
stayed over and worked to keep the place running. That goes to show
things hapen that no one can predict.

Saw this at company I worked for. Could have been the same one.

Just got through listening to some supercilious United Airline pilot
calling Limbaugh and saying that it is a privilege to fly and there are
rules that must be followed and the airline obeyed them. He implied
that travelers should also know them and abide by them.

Whatever the excuse the airline was working to maximize its profits to
avoid downtime.


Wow, imagine that. A business doing exactly what a business is supposed
to do.



Retired, I seldom fly anymore but did a bit when I was working and
inconvenienced many times by what was an airline mistake. With the
security problem, I would hate to fly today. A marketing manager I know
says he spends all his days in airports. Very frustrating for travelers.

Also very frustrating are asshole passengers, like the doctor in question.


It puzzles me why, in this litigious society, with all sorts of lawyers
looking to make a big score or attain notoriety, why assholes like this
doc who delay and inconvenience hundreds of other people, are not sue by
such individuals.

Why was not Woody Harrelson sued by individuals for closing down the
Golden Gate Bridge during commute rush hour?

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:23:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:43:45 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:03:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:02:41 AM UTC-4, Kurt V. Ullman wrote:
On 4/11/17 9:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:23 AM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.


Often there are no-shows so I can understand it. I've been bumped but
was well compensated for it and it made little difference in my life.
Arriving a couple of hours later in first class and getting free tickets
is not so bad. In this case though, the guy was already seated on the
plane. Poor planning on the airline.
The problem with that is for the most part the no-shows have already
paid and any more it is non-refunable. So they are double dipping if
they overbook.

Non-refundable not usable.

Yes, some tickets you have no recourse. But most tickets on the majors
are re-usable, usually with a change fee, depending on whether it's a
full fare ticket or a deep discount one.

That change fee is $100, at least with every airline I have been on
and that is a full fare first class ticket. You need to pay an
additional fee in advance if you want a flex ticket.
Usually a full fare ticket is a flexible ticket. Any discount
generally is not, without significant notice or a sizeable fee.

Generally if you "confirm"48 hours in advance there is no problem
changing the flight, and coming home from Europe,there was "job
action" at frankfurt which meant flights were rescheduled and
cancelled out of Barcelona.


That's still true with at least some FULL FARE tickets, but today,
virtually every airline is imposing significant change fees on
all the commonly used, reasonably priced tickets. And those full
fare tickets can be 3X+ the price of other tickets.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:03:28 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a flight
a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special doctor on
an emergency call, which would be doubtful.




Given the reliability of air travel at any time, I'd agree. Same with
people that have to meet a cruise ship that is not going to wait for
you. As should the airline schedule their crew better, not to have to
pull people out of their seats.

You seem to think it's just a simple matter of scheduling. Typically
airlines wind up with this need for a crew because of some unforeseen
circumstance, like eqpt problems, weather, illness, that resultsin a flight
crew not arriving where they are needed. Apparently that is what
happened on the KY end. Now you need to get a crew to KY, or a whole
plane load of people will not fly.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:08:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:17:55 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

That was sort of my thinking. Airplanes often get delayed for various
reasons not under control. The weather could be bad, or for some reason
the airplane could have mechanical problems, or even a bomb threat. How
many days was it that all planes were grounded after 9/11 ?

If someone absolutly has to be at a place, they should be set up atleast
a day or two sooner.

As far as the planning on the airlines part, there could have been crew
problems at the other airport. Maybe the crew had a wreck or some
medical problems or family problems.

I worked at a plant that needed to run 24/7 as to shut it down,
especially under under controlled conditions would have cost over a
million dollars. We don't usually get much snow in NC, but one day we
got 12 inches. Very few could get into work or out of the plant (around
400 or more people on a normal shift change each way). The ones there
stayed over and worked to keep the place running. That goes to show
things hapen that no one can predict.
Sometimes, particularly on commuter flights, someone HAS to book a
flight last minute so you really can't blame the "doctor". They cannot
book a day off in between - both directions.


Just because sometimes *someone* has to book a flight last minute,
and that flight is their only choice, doesn't mean that's what happened
with this doc and is his excuse. So far, I've heard nothing that
suggests that was the case.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:19:56 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:10 AM, trader_4 wrote:

airlines and I hope the guy sues them for millions and settles for half
that. He will win.

So the new protocol is that you can just refuse to leave? Next you'll
have everyone claiming they have important business to attend to and
that they won't leave. This guy is just another one of these obnoxious
assholes that screws with the rest of us and makes travel disasters.
And check out what the media is finally starting to report about the
doctor's background, eg TMZ is reporting the doctor's license was
suspended for drug violations, including exchanging drug's for sex.


The guy may be a dirt bag, but that does not excuse the airline for
screwing up. The guy should not have been seated. Why did they not
know in advance the employees had to fly? We're talking 15 or 20
minutes when they started to board.

I'd like to know if the crew had to make a flight of if they were just
on the way home from vacation. I've not seen anything on that yet.

On radio news they reported that it was a flight crew that was needed
in KY or a plane there would not be able to fly. The timing, when they
first learned of it, etc, IDK.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:25:55 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 4:34 AM, Bob wrote:
On 04/11/2017 12:41 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:12:33 -0700, wrote:

I'd kindly tell the cops; before you put your hands on me, you better
know what the **** you are doing.

This **** could get ugly:-)
The last thing you ever want to do is start a fight with a cop and
that is doubly true at an airport where every little infraction is a
federal crime.

But Oren is super badass, even the feds wouldn't dare to mess with him.
LOL

And FWIW, if you don't want bumped, buy an adult seat up front or
charter a Gulfstream. Airlines only bump the riffraff in coach.

Nobody would get bumped if the airlines didn't **** up with their
overbooking. I'm amazed there isn't a better control of this issue
considering overbooking is common. They waste so much money with
overbooking the need to offset the cost reflects on the rest who fly.

How exactly would you solve it? There is no solution, other than to
not overbook. They overbook based on modeling and statistical analysis.
Usually it works fine, occasionally they don't have enough seats.
And are you willing to pay the increased ticket costs to eliminate
overbooking?

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:30:56 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:14:55 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I'd kindly tell the cops; before you put your hands on me, you better
know what the **** you are doing.

This **** could get ugly :-)

There must be respect for the cops. The passanger was wrong to resist.


I agree. He's just another one of these self-assholes who
makes travel miserable for the whole plane. Twenty years ago, we
didn't have this happening. Now unfortunately, jerks like this guy
have seen that everyone has a cell phone to take a video and they
figure they can make a spectacle, get a pay day, go on The Today
Show, etc.


Yes, maybe a bit over-dramatic regarding his exit, but why should he, or
anyone, have to leave a plane or any event for that matter due to the
error of the vendor?

Because it's the airline's plane, the airline controls it and the law
is that you have to obey the flight crew? What do you think would
happen at a hardware store if the management told you that you had
to leave and you refused? They would call the police and if you also
refused their commands to leave, they would drag you out.

I don't want an asshole like this on my plane. What's next? A hissy
fit at 40,000 ft over a pillow that results in the plane being diverted?

BTW, just heard on the radio this morning that to get his medical license
back following his felony drug peddling/sex charges, he was required to
take anger management classes, so that suggests there were plenty of
problems, disregard for authority in his past.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:34:53 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

Irrelevant. It's a game played by the airlines, not the customers. The
"losers" should ALWAYS be the airlines. They assume the risk, they
should suffer the consequences when they lose that risk.

It's not just the airlines. Passengers are very much involved in this
too. Are you willing to pay the increased fares that would result if
airlines did not overbook based on statistics and instead had planes
leaving with empty seats?

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:31:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:02:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:44:23 -0400, Frank "frank wrote:

On 4/11/2017 10:10 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/11/2017 6:20 AM, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

I heard it was not overbooked but the airline wanted seats for its own
employees to get to their jobs.

Story still developing so we will see how it ends. Guy said he was
important Dr. but who knows if he is telling the truth.

If airline did do it for their own convenience it will cost them a
bundle.



If that flight crew was needed to keep the schedules rolling, I am not
sure it was just "for their convenience". But, nobody should have been
boarded that might need to get bumped voluntarily or not. Do that
before the jetway.

If that were the case, why did they oversell the flight? Are they so
disorganized that they cannot foresee these things?
Short answer?
Yes. They ROUTINELY overbook these flights, counting on some
passengers not showing up. Then when they need to move crew members at
the last minute the brown stuff hits the fan. Sounds like the flight
crew movement was last minute - possibly THEY had been bumped from a
previous flight (which happens more often than you'd believe). They
bounce the crew to accomodate passengers, counting on a light load on
a following flight - then end up with it overbooked too. Then they
don't offer enough incentive for someone to figure it's worth while
taking a later flight.
Offer to put them up at a classt hotel and give them tickets to a
baseball game or something, and a guaranteed morning flight, and
they'd have to fight off the volunteers.

They basically did that, offering $800 and got no takers.

Then they should have offered $900. You can't tell me they can't
reach the price where some passengers are willing to bite.
I don't think they even made all the passengers aware of the $800
offer. Stupid of them.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:38:24 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:23 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:54:06 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 9:20 AM, Frank wrote:


I heard it was not overbooked but the airline wanted seats for its own
employees to get to their jobs.

Story still developing so we will see how it ends. Guy said he was
important Dr. but who knows if he is telling the truth.

If airline did do it for their own convenience it will cost them a bundle.

Assuming the facts are correct. Is it more important for a flight
attendant or a doctor to get to the job?


IDK, that's a good question. I'd say it depends on what kind of
doctor he is, what kind of patients he's seeing. It's being reported
now that this doctor had his license suspended on drug charges,
including trading drugs for sex. What does that tell you? And what
is the inconvenience if the flight crew doesn't get to where they
are needed and 200 other people, maybe other doctors, don't get
to where they are going?

If you are booking your own employees, shouldn't they have been boarded
first and then bump passengers at the gate? Poorly done and United
deserves the poor publicity. They were pretty stupid in the way they
handled it. If the benefits are good, I'll take a bump. I like
travelling first class at their expense.


I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all along.
It's possible that only came up after people had boarded. Once this
guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they should have
asked to see his license and if he showed it, then selected another
random person. That seems like a reasonable thing that could have
avoided this mess.


What does it matter if the person is a doctor or a housewife, they are a
paying customer victimized by the error of an airline.

I only suggested that if I were the airline, I might make an exception
for a doctor who claims he has to be with patients in the AM. IF they
want to treat everyone the same, which is what they did, that's OK with
me too.




I simply don't understand how anyone can justify the actions of the
airline based on the customers profession.

I don't see anyone trying to justify what the airline did based on
him being a doctor. In fact, the airline did exactly what you wanted,
they treated him just like any other passenger.

All I suggested was that the airline could have taken
into account that he was a doctor who said he had patients to attend to
early the next morning. Maybe it's just me, but I can see giving
preference to someone like that, or someone that can show they need
to be there for a funeral, over somebody retired and just on their way
home.



Nobody volunteered...tuff
**** for airlines. Put your four extra people in cargo.

The tough **** would be for the hundred passengers in Louisville, KY
that did not have a flight crew, so they had no flight.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:41:09 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:56 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

As for the airline with their crew members, we don't know the full
story. When did UAL know they had to put them on this flight?
Many times these things change dynamically. A flight crew that was
supposed to fly out of city A can't get there because their equipment
is out of service and can't fly at the last minute. Then the airline
has to scramble to find a crew that can get there to fly the plane out
of city A.




I don't care what class ticket you purchase. Fail to give notice that
you will not board that flight and try and get a refund. Ain't gonna
happen.

Obviously you don't fly much, because otherwise you'd know that this
happens all the time. Some tickets are fully refundable. Less expensive
tickets may not be, but the vast majority of those on the majors,
eg UAL, are usable for another flight, typically with a change fee.



If you DO give sufficient notice, you may get the refund AND
the airline then knows they have an extra seat. If they overbook, they
are betting that X% will be no shows or reschedule, they will keep the
money (or a large percentage of it) from that fare and still collect
another fare for the same seat.

It's just like any other form of gambling and the odds are stacked in
favor of the house.

Follow along on this little screw up by United. In the end, I suspect
that the only question that will be answered is how many zeroes will be
added to the check that United/Republic Airlines and the City of Chicago
will write.

Chicago Department of Aviation has already suspended their officer and
acknowledged that he violated procedure by the manner in which he acted.


I suppose we should have just had a hippie group therapy session
there on the tarmac with the passenger who won't obey the lawful
commands of the flight crew and those of the police? I've seen
quite a few of these in the news and have yet to see one where a
passenger disobeyed the flight crew and police and won. This was
just another self-centered jerk passenger, who didn't care if he
wound up with the whole flight cancelled.


Maybe he had a late seminar or operation. Who is anyone to tell him when
to leave or not?

No one is telling him he has to do anything. It's up to him. But people
like Ralph and Gordon, who I agree with, have suggested that if you have
an urgent need to be somewhere, then don't blame the airline if you
schedule your air travel so there is no margin for error.


He paid for a schedule fare. He is not at fault in any
way possible,

Paying for a ticket does not guarantee you will get on that flight.
Apparently you don't fly much. And he is at fault for not obeying
the crew, not obeying law enforcement, to get off the plane. How
many people have you seen win on the spot when they disobey a flight
crew? I've seen planes forced to make emergency landings, passengers
that had crew and other passengers sitting on them, people arrested,
but I've never seen one yet where you take on a crew and law enforcement
and win in the airplane.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:42:45 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 1:17 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

That was sort of my thinking. Airplanes often get delayed for various
reasons not under control. The weather could be bad, or for some reason
the airplane could have mechanical problems, or even a bomb threat. How
many days was it that all planes were grounded after 9/11 ?

If someone absolutly has to be at a place, they should be set up atleast
a day or two sooner.

As far as the planning on the airlines part, there could have been crew
problems at the other airport. Maybe the crew had a wreck or some
medical problems or family problems.

I worked at a plant that needed to run 24/7 as to shut it down,
especially under under controlled conditions would have cost over a
million dollars. We don't usually get much snow in NC, but one day we
got 12 inches. Very few could get into work or out of the plant (around
400 or more people on a normal shift change each way). The ones there
stayed over and worked to keep the place running. That goes to show
things hapen that no one can predict.


You discuss the gambling odds of the airline overbooking yet fail to
give credit to a customer who may play the odds the airlines are usually
on time.

I guess in addition to not flying much, you're unfamiliar with gambling.
When you gamble, sometimes you lose.


How anyone can justify fault in the guy is ****ing astonishing.

He was 100% wrong from the time he refused to obey the commands of
the airline crew and law enforcement. Suppose you were in a hardware
store, had a coupon for 50% off, went to use it, and the store manager
said it's not eligible for the product in question. So, you start
a shouting match, it escalates, the manager asks you to leave the store.
You refuse, demanding that he sell you the product for 50% off.
He calls the police and you refuse their lawful commands to exit
the store. How do you think that would end?

On 4/12/2017 11:03 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:34:53 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

Irrelevant. It's a game played by the airlines, not the customers. The
"losers" should ALWAYS be the airlines. They assume the risk, they
should suffer the consequences when they lose that risk.

It's not just the airlines. Passengers are very much involved in this
too. Are you willing to pay the increased fares that would result if
airlines did not overbook based on statistics and instead had planes
leaving with empty seats?


You mean we're not paying high fares already?

I don't buy into the corporate lies of their reasoning for low or high
costs. Rules and procedures can be applied to ensure filled seats and no
overbooking. They play that game because they can win. It's all about
the money.

On 4/12/2017 8:36 AM, Meanie wrote:
On 4/12/2017 11:03 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:34:53 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

Irrelevant. It's a game played by the airlines, not the customers. The
"losers" should ALWAYS be the airlines. They assume the risk, they
should suffer the consequences when they lose that risk.

It's not just the airlines. Passengers are very much involved in this
too. Are you willing to pay the increased fares that would result if
airlines did not overbook based on statistics and instead had planes
leaving with empty seats?


You mean we're not paying high fares already?

I don't buy into the corporate lies of their reasoning for low or high
costs. Rules and procedures can be applied to ensure filled seats and no
overbooking. They play that game because they can win. It's all about
the money.


Sounds like you should go to work for an airline. You seem to know it
all about their business.

On 4/12/2017 10:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:30:56 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:14:55 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...


[snip]

Because it's the airline's plane, the airline controls it and the law
is that you have to obey the flight crew? What do you think would
happen at a hardware store if the management told you that you had
to leave and you refused? They would call the police and if you also
refused their commands to leave, they would drag you out.

I don't want an asshole like this on my plane. What's next? A hissy
fit at 40,000 ft over a pillow that results in the plane being diverted?

BTW, just heard on the radio this morning that to get his medical license
back following his felony drug peddling/sex charges, he was required to
take anger management classes, so that suggests there were plenty of
problems, disregard for authority in his past.


Okay, let's assume that he has/had anger management issues. In this
instance, what is the relevance? It seems that the folks here and the
public in general feel he was abused by the airlines and that their
method of enforcing the bumping of passengers was wrong.

Excuse the hyperbole, but if this was a matter of the flight crew
telling the doctor to please fasten his seat belt prior to take off, and
his response was to yell and scream at the flight attendant or take a
swing at him/her, there would be some relevance. Such is not the case.

The request by the airline is viewed as unreasonable under the
circumstances and the majority agrees. Further, the airline is the
aggressor in this situation, he merely said he wasn't willing to give up
his seat.

Further clouding the issue is something I just picked up in reading one
of the "news" articles here (same one that detailing his drug use, sex
life, etc.). Apparently his wife was also on the flight and witnessed
what transpired.

Was she also randomly bumped or was the airline "splitting the pair"
(apropos since the doctor apparently is also a gambler )?

Regardless of your position vis a vis the airline's policy and actions,
would your position change if YOU were sitting on that flight with your
wife and told YOU were leaving and she was staying? Just sayin'

On 4/12/2017 11:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:



Nobody volunteered...tuff
**** for airlines. Put your four extra people in cargo.

The tough **** would be for the hundred passengers in Louisville, KY
that did not have a flight crew, so they had no flight.


It's just over a 1 hour flight, they can stand. I'd volunteer to allow
the hot flight attendant to sit on my lap if it makes them happy but not
to leave if I didn't want to. Again, their mistake

On 4/12/2017 10:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 2:31:31 PM UTC-4, Neill Massello wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:

If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a flight
a few days sooner.

So passengers should waste their time because United Airlines doesn't
plan ahead?

United Airlines can't foresee the future. Things happen, ranging from
eqpt problems, to weather, to a flight crew that doesn't make it to
where they are needed. The latter is what happened in this case,
creating the need for those 4 United employees to go to KY. If you
have some critical job, absolutely have to be somewhere, it's really
stupid to rely on the last flight out of the day.


You are completely unaware of his issues and why he may have taken the
last flight. Regardless, it's irrelevant. The flight problems you list
are rarer than the airline overbooking. Why is it acceptable for them to
play the odds but not the passengers?

On 4/12/2017 10:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 3:57:42 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:23 AM, trader_4 wrote:



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all along.
It's possible that only came up after people had boarded. Once this
guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they should have
asked to see his license and if he showed it, then selected another
random person. That seems like a reasonable thing that could have
avoided this mess.


If they did not know until the passengers were seated, they are dumber
than I thought. It is still poor planning on the part of the airline
and someone should be punished

Nice Monday morning quarterbacking. They needed those 4 employees
because of a problem in KY. Could you foresee that? IDK exactly
when UAL first knew they had a problem and needed those 4 extra
crew, but you're assuming they had plenty of time. It's possible
they only knew of it shortly before this plane was to depart.


When does boarding start? Only minutes before push away. If the
airline just found out at that point it was really **** poor planning.

I understand there was a need to get them on the flight, but it should
have been handled better before everyone was boarded. Much of my career
has been in production planning/scheduling and tough deadlines. I've
had to do some sweet talking and begging, but never had to drag someone
to or from a work station. Poorly handled.

Plenty of time? If they had one minute before the last four passengers
were boarded, yes, they had plenty of time.

On 4/12/2017 8:40 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/12/2017 10:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:30:56 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:14:55 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...


[snip]

Because it's the airline's plane, the airline controls it and the law
is that you have to obey the flight crew? What do you think would
happen at a hardware store if the management told you that you had
to leave and you refused? They would call the police and if you also
refused their commands to leave, they would drag you out.

I don't want an asshole like this on my plane. What's next? A hissy
fit at 40,000 ft over a pillow that results in the plane being diverted?

BTW, just heard on the radio this morning that to get his medical license
back following his felony drug peddling/sex charges, he was required to
take anger management classes, so that suggests there were plenty of
problems, disregard for authority in his past.


Okay, let's assume that he has/had anger management issues. In this
instance, what is the relevance?

because if he wasn't a nut job, this situation would not have arisen.

It seems that the folks here and the
public in general feel he was abused by the airlines and that their
method of enforcing the bumping of passengers was wrong.

Who cares that a supposed majority thinks? What is the LAW?



Excuse the hyperbole, but if this was a matter of the flight crew
telling the doctor to please fasten his seat belt prior to take off, and
his response was to yell and scream at the flight attendant or take a
swing at him/her, there would be some relevance. Such is not the case.

The request by the airline is viewed as unreasonable under the
circumstances and the majority agrees.

majority? who cares. What is the LAW?

Further, the airline is the
aggressor in this situation, he merely said he wasn't willing to give up
his seat.

so if some drunk walks into your house and refuses to leave . . .

On 4/12/2017 8:47 AM, Meanie wrote:
On 4/12/2017 10:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 2:31:31 PM UTC-4, Neill Massello wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:

If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a flight
a few days sooner.

So passengers should waste their time because United Airlines doesn't
plan ahead?

United Airlines can't foresee the future. Things happen, ranging from
eqpt problems, to weather, to a flight crew that doesn't make it to
where they are needed. The latter is what happened in this case,
creating the need for those 4 United employees to go to KY. If you
have some critical job, absolutely have to be somewhere, it's really
stupid to rely on the last flight out of the day.


You are completely unaware of his issues and why he may have taken the
last flight. Regardless, it's irrelevant. The flight problems you list
are rarer than the airline overbooking. Why is it acceptable for them to
play the odds but not the passengers?



because that is what the contract says. And he agreed to its terms.

On 4/12/2017 8:45 AM, Meanie wrote:
On 4/12/2017 11:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:



Nobody volunteered...tuff
**** for airlines. Put your four extra people in cargo.

The tough **** would be for the hundred passengers in Louisville, KY
that did not have a flight crew, so they had no flight.


It's just over a 1 hour flight, they can stand. I'd volunteer to allow
the hot flight attendant to sit on my lap if it makes them happy but not
to leave if I didn't want to. Again, their mistake



any airplane I've ever flown has indicated they could not push off
unless everyone was in their seat, seat belt fastened. I guess this is
optional, eh?

On 4/12/2017 11:23 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:42:45 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 1:17 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

That was sort of my thinking. Airplanes often get delayed for various
reasons not under control. The weather could be bad, or for some reason
the airplane could have mechanical problems, or even a bomb threat. How
many days was it that all planes were grounded after 9/11 ?

If someone absolutly has to be at a place, they should be set up atleast
a day or two sooner.

As far as the planning on the airlines part, there could have been crew
problems at the other airport. Maybe the crew had a wreck or some
medical problems or family problems.

I worked at a plant that needed to run 24/7 as to shut it down,
especially under under controlled conditions would have cost over a
million dollars. We don't usually get much snow in NC, but one day we
got 12 inches. Very few could get into work or out of the plant (around
400 or more people on a normal shift change each way). The ones there
stayed over and worked to keep the place running. That goes to show
things hapen that no one can predict.


You discuss the gambling odds of the airline overbooking yet fail to
give credit to a customer who may play the odds the airlines are usually
on time.

I guess in addition to not flying much, you're unfamiliar with gambling.
When you gamble, sometimes you lose.


Technically, it's not gambling. I'm not entering a casino with the
expectation of losing or winning some money. It's a service already paid
for. I don't fly with the belief I am gambling to get knocked off
considering the odds of that are rare. I fly with the expectation I will
reach my destinations according to the ETA and ETD of the information
printed on my ticket and paperwork which I paid to use. The airline
gambles on statistics and when they lose, they need to be the ones to
pay, not customers.

How anyone can justify fault in the guy is ****ing astonishing.

He was 100% wrong from the time he refused to obey the commands of
the airline crew and law enforcement. Suppose you were in a hardware
store, had a coupon for 50% off, went to use it, and the store manager
said it's not eligible for the product in question. So, you start
a shouting match, it escalates, the manager asks you to leave the store.
You refuse, demanding that he sell you the product for 50% off.
He calls the police and you refuse their lawful commands to exit
the store. How do you think that would end?


Apples to oranges comparison. For starters, I didn't already pay for a
product or service in the store. A better comparison would be paying for
a product and they refuse to give it to me. In addition, I'm not in
another city waiting to get home.

Though I will agree that fighting/resisting police will never win.
Fortunately, it's already been stated the authority did the wrong thing
and heads will roll in that department. They had no right to drag him as
he didn't break any laws.

On 4/12/2017 11:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:30:56 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:14:55 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I'd kindly tell the cops; before you put your hands on me, you better
know what the **** you are doing.

This **** could get ugly :-)

There must be respect for the cops. The passanger was wrong to resist.


I agree. He's just another one of these self-assholes who
makes travel miserable for the whole plane. Twenty years ago, we
didn't have this happening. Now unfortunately, jerks like this guy
have seen that everyone has a cell phone to take a video and they
figure they can make a spectacle, get a pay day, go on The Today
Show, etc.


Yes, maybe a bit over-dramatic regarding his exit, but why should he, or
anyone, have to leave a plane or any event for that matter due to the
error of the vendor?

Because it's the airline's plane, the airline controls it and the law
is that you have to obey the flight crew? What do you think would
happen at a hardware store if the management told you that you had
to leave and you refused? They would call the police and if you also
refused their commands to leave, they would drag you out.

I don't want an asshole like this on my plane. What's next? A hissy
fit at 40,000 ft over a pillow that results in the plane being diverted?

BTW, just heard on the radio this morning that to get his medical license
back following his felony drug peddling/sex charges, he was required to
take anger management classes, so that suggests there were plenty of
problems, disregard for authority in his past.




He would have never disregarded authority if the airline never demanded
he be removed for their error. I stated to you below, the authority was
wrong and heads are gonna roll for their unjustified acts on him. Being
a drama queen isn't breaking the law.

On 4/12/2017 10:56 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:25:55 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 4:34 AM, Bob wrote:
On 04/11/2017 12:41 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:12:33 -0700, wrote:

I'd kindly tell the cops; before you put your hands on me, you better
know what the **** you are doing.

This **** could get ugly:-)
The last thing you ever want to do is start a fight with a cop and
that is doubly true at an airport where every little infraction is a
federal crime.

But Oren is super badass, even the feds wouldn't dare to mess with him.
LOL

And FWIW, if you don't want bumped, buy an adult seat up front or
charter a Gulfstream. Airlines only bump the riffraff in coach.

Nobody would get bumped if the airlines didn't **** up with their
overbooking. I'm amazed there isn't a better control of this issue
considering overbooking is common. They waste so much money with
overbooking the need to offset the cost reflects on the rest who fly.

How exactly would you solve it? There is no solution, other than to
not overbook. They overbook based on modeling and statistical analysis.
Usually it works fine, occasionally they don't have enough seats.
And are you willing to pay the increased ticket costs to eliminate
overbooking?


Read my reply below about my belief in the overbooking odds and higher
costs. Corporate always have excuses for higher cost and if you believe
them, you're a fool.

On 4/12/2017 10:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:03:28 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a flight
a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special doctor on
an emergency call, which would be doubtful.




Given the reliability of air travel at any time, I'd agree. Same with
people that have to meet a cruise ship that is not going to wait for
you. As should the airline schedule their crew better, not to have to
pull people out of their seats.

You seem to think it's just a simple matter of scheduling. Typically
airlines wind up with this need for a crew because of some unforeseen
circumstance, like eqpt problems, weather, illness, that resultsin a flight
crew not arriving where they are needed. Apparently that is what
happened on the KY end. Now you need to get a crew to KY, or a whole
plane load of people will not fly.


Big deal. Happens all the time and is usually handled easily. Airlines
have coped with far worse circumstances with major weather events. this
should have been easily handled before everyone was seated.

There are, however some factors that could screw thing up. The guy
accepted the deal and later found out the details and changed his mind..
That is not an excuse to drag him down the aisle. There is always a
plan B or you make one.

On 4/12/2017 9:13 AM, Meanie wrote:
On 4/12/2017 11:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:30:56 PM UTC-4, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:14:55 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I'd kindly tell the cops; before you put your hands on me, you better
know what the **** you are doing.

This **** could get ugly :-)

There must be respect for the cops. The passanger was wrong to resist.


I agree. He's just another one of these self-assholes who
makes travel miserable for the whole plane. Twenty years ago, we
didn't have this happening. Now unfortunately, jerks like this guy
have seen that everyone has a cell phone to take a video and they
figure they can make a spectacle, get a pay day, go on The Today
Show, etc.


Yes, maybe a bit over-dramatic regarding his exit, but why should he, or
anyone, have to leave a plane or any event for that matter due to the
error of the vendor?

Because it's the airline's plane, the airline controls it and the law
is that you have to obey the flight crew? What do you think would
happen at a hardware store if the management told you that you had
to leave and you refused? They would call the police and if you also
refused their commands to leave, they would drag you out.

I don't want an asshole like this on my plane. What's next? A hissy
fit at 40,000 ft over a pillow that results in the plane being diverted?

BTW, just heard on the radio this morning that to get his medical license
back following his felony drug peddling/sex charges, he was required to
take anger management classes, so that suggests there were plenty of
problems, disregard for authority in his past.




He would have never disregarded authority if the airline never demanded
he be removed for their error. I stated to you below, the authority was
wrong and heads are gonna roll for their unjustified acts on him. Being
a drama queen isn't breaking the law.


trespassing is, dram queen or no.

On 4/12/2017 9:23 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/12/2017 10:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:03:28 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a flight
a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special doctor on
an emergency call, which would be doubtful.




Given the reliability of air travel at any time, I'd agree. Same with
people that have to meet a cruise ship that is not going to wait for
you. As should the airline schedule their crew better, not to have to
pull people out of their seats.

You seem to think it's just a simple matter of scheduling. Typically
airlines wind up with this need for a crew because of some unforeseen
circumstance, like eqpt problems, weather, illness, that resultsin a flight
crew not arriving where they are needed. Apparently that is what
happened on the KY end. Now you need to get a crew to KY, or a whole
plane load of people will not fly.


Big deal. Happens all the time and is usually handled easily. Airlines
have coped with far worse circumstances with major weather events. this
should have been easily handled before everyone was seated.

There are, however some factors that could screw thing up. The guy
accepted the deal and later found out the details and changed his mind..
That is not an excuse to drag him down the aisle. There is always a
plan B or you make one.



Looks like they followed plan B. Maybe the guy should have had a plan B.

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:10:31 -0400, Meanie wrote:

Though I will agree that fighting/resisting police will never win.
Fortunately, it's already been stated the authority did the wrong thing
and heads will roll in that department. They had no right to drag him as
he didn't break any laws.

"United Airlines (UAL) will no longer use law enforcement officers to
remove overbooked passengers from aircraft in the wake of a video that
showed a Chicago passenger dragged from one of its flights on Sunday.

"We're not going to put a law enforcement official... to remove a
booked, paid, seated passenger," United Continental Holdings Inc Chief
Executive Officer Oscar Munoz told ABC News on Wednesday morning. "We
can't do that."

Munoz said the problem resulted from a "system failure" that prevented
employees from using "common sense" in the situation and that Dr.
David Dao, whom security officers dragged by his hands, on his back,
from the cabin before takeoff, was not at fault."

http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2017/04/12/ceo-says-united-will-not-use-police-to-remove-overbooked-passengers.html

(...and LEO should not be involved with "contract disputes". It's not
their job.)

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:26:11 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

He would have never disregarded authority if the airline never demanded
he be removed for their error. I stated to you below, the authority was
wrong and heads are gonna roll for their unjustified acts on him. Being
a drama queen isn't breaking the law.


trespassing is, dram queen or no.

He wasn't trespassing. He paid to occupy the seat for a period of
time.

On 4/12/17 11:08 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:31:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:02:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:44:23 -0400, Frank "frank wrote:

On 4/11/2017 10:10 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/11/2017 6:20 AM, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

I heard it was not overbooked but the airline wanted seats for its own
employees to get to their jobs.

Story still developing so we will see how it ends. Guy said he was
important Dr. but who knows if he is telling the truth.

If airline did do it for their own convenience it will cost them a
bundle.



If that flight crew was needed to keep the schedules rolling, I am not
sure it was just "for their convenience". But, nobody should have been
boarded that might need to get bumped voluntarily or not. Do that
before the jetway.

If that were the case, why did they oversell the flight? Are they so
disorganized that they cannot foresee these things?
Short answer?
Yes. They ROUTINELY overbook these flights, counting on some
passengers not showing up. Then when they need to move crew members at
the last minute the brown stuff hits the fan. Sounds like the flight
crew movement was last minute - possibly THEY had been bumped from a
previous flight (which happens more often than you'd believe). They
bounce the crew to accomodate passengers, counting on a light load on
a following flight - then end up with it overbooked too. Then they
don't offer enough incentive for someone to figure it's worth while
taking a later flight.
Offer to put them up at a classt hotel and give them tickets to a
baseball game or something, and a guaranteed morning flight, and
they'd have to fight off the volunteers.

They basically did that, offering $800 and got no takers.

Then they should have offered $900. You can't tell me they can't
reach the price where some passengers are willing to bite.
I don't think they even made all the passengers aware of the $800
offer. Stupid of them.

Especially since the maximum they are required to offer is over a $1,000
in that case (delayed more than 4 hours).

On 4/12/17 12:49 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:26:11 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

He would have never disregarded authority if the airline never demanded
he be removed for their error. I stated to you below, the authority was
wrong and heads are gonna roll for their unjustified acts on him. Being
a drama queen isn't breaking the law.


trespassing is, dram queen or no.

He wasn't trespassing. He paid to occupy the seat for a period of
time.

The airline revoked the license to use that seat and that makes it
trespassing. Now whether or not they should have is the other part of
the discussion.

On 4/12/17 12:10 PM, Meanie wrote:

Though I will agree that fighting/resisting police will never win.
Fortunately, it's already been stated the authority did the wrong thing
and heads will roll in that department. They had no right to drag him as
he didn't break any laws.

He refused a lawful order of the flight crew. That is a violation of a
couple federal laws.

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:55:35 -0400, "Kurt V. Ullman"
wrote:


Especially since the maximum they are required to offer is over a $1,000
in that case (delayed more than 4 hours).

Not exactly true. They are required to offer up to 4x the one way
ticket cost up to a max of $1350 but since they usually target the
bargain ticket holders they can get away with a few hundred on a
deeply discounted ticket. The airlines managed to get the law made
inconsequential a few years ago.

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:58:45 -0400, "Kurt V. Ullman"
wrote:

On 4/12/17 12:49 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:26:11 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

He would have never disregarded authority if the airline never demanded
he be removed for their error. I stated to you below, the authority was
wrong and heads are gonna roll for their unjustified acts on him. Being
a drama queen isn't breaking the law.


trespassing is, dram queen or no.

He wasn't trespassing. He paid to occupy the seat for a period of
time.

The airline revoked the license to use that seat and that makes it
trespassing. Now whether or not they should have is the other part of
the discussion.

I see.

On 4/12/17 1:23 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:55:35 -0400, "Kurt V. Ullman"
wrote:


Especially since the maximum they are required to offer is over a $1,000
in that case (delayed more than 4 hours).

Not exactly true. They are required to offer up to 4x the one way
ticket cost up to a max of $1350 but since they usually target the
bargain ticket holders they can get away with a few hundred on a
deeply discounted ticket. The airlines managed to get the law made
inconsequential a few years ago.

Again, this is just required to offer. Nothing in the rules and
regulations sets that this is ALL they can offer.

"Taxed and Spent" wrote in message
news
It seems that the folks here and the
public in general feel he was abused by the airlines and that their
method of enforcing the bumping of passengers was wrong.

Who cares that a supposed majority thinks? What is the LAW?

The law prohibits taking by force something belonging to another, government
excepted. He had bought and paid for the use of his seat.

"trader_4" wrote in message
news:5f934908-0fa0-4d9d-85b8-

Also very frustrating are asshole passengers, like the doctor in question.

So if you had been he you would have just stood up, bent over and said,
"Thank you sir, may I have another?"?