I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.

On 12/16/2016 11:33 PM, micky wrote:



So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?


Seem like a lot less trouble to take a Garmin with Europe maps and have
everything you need. If you are staying in the same place for a couple
of days it is easy to set it as "home" so you can get back easily.

On 12/16/16 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

*No, they are not*



I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.


If all you need is a *portable* compass, consider an "old-school"
automotive compass such as this one:

https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p...551/BK_7305551

On 12/16/2016 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.

Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well? Are you traveling by horse?

On 12/17/2016 10:46 AM, Krispy Kreme wrote:
On 12/16/2016 11:33 PM, micky wrote:



So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well? Are
you traveling by horse?


I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:47:02 AM UTC-5, Krispy Kreme wrote:
On 12/16/2016 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.

Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well? Are you traveling by horse?

I can't recall using a compass in a mirror in a car for anything other
than novelty amusement. With so many GPS tools available as either
standalone or as part of a smartphone, a compass is kind of a relic
and not particularly useful. If you need to get from A to B, the GPS
will tell you how, the best route, etc. The compass will only tell
you what direction you're headed in and with twisting turning roads,
even that isn't much use.

Doesn't work in the dark, but I rely on people's satellite dishes to c show me south.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 08:58:34 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:47:02 AM UTC-5, Krispy Kreme wrote:

Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well? Are you traveling by horse?

I can't recall using a compass in a mirror in a car for anything other
than novelty amusement. With so many GPS tools available as either
standalone or as part of a smartphone, a compass is kind of a relic
and not particularly useful. If you need to get from A to B, the GPS
will tell you how, the best route, etc. The compass will only tell
you what direction you're headed in and with twisting turning roads,
even that isn't much use.

We usually vacation out west and the compass in the car is handy
although I have not been in a rental in close to a decade that was
without NAV. Maybe Micky should rent a better car ;-)

We still like paper maps because our plans are very fluid.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 07:55:43 -0500, Retired wrote:

On 12/16/16 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

*No, they are not*



I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.


If all you need is a *portable* compass, consider an "old-school"
automotive compass such as this one:

https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p...551/BK_7305551
Or a simple hand-held GPS which you can use in the car and has a
very accurate "compass" tghat is not affected by magnetic fields - - -

On 12/17/2016 08:46 AM, Krispy Kreme wrote:

Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well? Are
you traveling by horse?

With Micky anything is possible. My brother in law was a merchant seaman
and I think he used a compass as a navigational aid when he was driving.
He wrecked a lot of cars is all I know.

On 12/17/2016 1:02 PM, wrote:


We still like paper maps because our plans are very fluid.


But don't the maps get soggy with fluid plans?

One big advantage of paper maps is you can get a good overview of the
area so you can come up with a logical route.

On 12/16/16 10:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.
Some cut.
I'm curious why you care about direction if you're just wandering
around.
The main things to involved then is fuel, food, left, right, or
straight ahead.
Plus the hysterical markers along side the roads. Ya gotta stop at
those to see
what they're about.

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 11:58:39 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:47:02 AM UTC-5, Krispy Kreme wrote:
On 12/16/2016 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.

Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well? Are you traveling by horse?

I can't recall using a compass in a mirror in a car for anything other
than novelty amusement. With so many GPS tools available as either
standalone or as part of a smartphone, a compass is kind of a relic
and not particularly useful. If you need to get from A to B, the GPS
will tell you how, the best route, etc. The compass will only tell
you what direction you're headed in and with twisting turning roads,
even that isn't much use.

For the last many years, I have depended on my smartphone for navigating.
I haven't updated my Garmin GPS in I don't know how long. Why bother?

Then last month I took a trip out west. Nevada and California. Las Vegas,
Reno, San Francisco, etc. I had no clue that there were so many areas
where cell coverage doesn't exist. On one occasion I mapped out a route
using Google Maps on my laptop and wrote down a number of via points to
put into my phone because I knew didn't want to take the direct route
that my phone would use. That's always worked for me back east.

Well, you get out into the deserts of Nevada or outside the major metropolitan
areas of California and your smartphone doesn't do you any good. I've got a
list of via points with me but no way of knowing if I am on the correct
route or not.

At one point we were driving from Tonopah, NV to Reno, via a very scenic
route when we lost cell coverage. I assumed I was still heading the right
way but I didn't know when/where the next turn was going to be. When you
are out in the middle of nowhere, one missed turn and you could drive hours
out of your way. So we're driving along, feeling lost (but not really knowing)
and suddenly we see a sign that says "We miss you already! Come back soon!"

Wait...what? Who misses us? Come back to where? The next sign we see is
"Welcome to California". Huh? California? What are we doing in California?
It was totally my fault, but as I was mapping out the scenic route from
Tonopah to Reno, I neglected to notice that we were going to pass into
California for a short period. Luckily, California has those agricultural
inspection stations soon after you cross the border, so we were quickly
assured that we were on the right road. The nice lady even told us how
far we were from our next turn so we felt a lot more comfortable after that.

The next time I head out that way you can be sure I'll have my Garmin with
me.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 10:46:57 -0500, Krispy Kreme
wrote:



Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well?

I dont' know how to use a sextant yet, but I'd like to learn.

Are you traveling by horse?

That would be wonderful. You see so much more when you go slower (than
a car).

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 8:47:15 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 10:46:57 -0500, Krispy Kreme
wrote:



Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well?

I dont' know how to use a sextant yet, but I'd like to learn.

Are you traveling by horse?

That would be wonderful. You see so much more when you go slower (than
a car).

Actually, you see a lot less, you just see it for a longer time.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 15:06:32 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 11:58:39 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:47:02 AM UTC-5, Krispy Kreme wrote:
On 12/16/2016 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.

Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well? Are you traveling by horse?

I can't recall using a compass in a mirror in a car for anything other
than novelty amusement. With so many GPS tools available as either
standalone or as part of a smartphone, a compass is kind of a relic
and not particularly useful. If you need to get from A to B, the GPS
will tell you how, the best route, etc. The compass will only tell
you what direction you're headed in and with twisting turning roads,
even that isn't much use.

For the last many years, I have depended on my smartphone for navigating.
I haven't updated my Garmin GPS in I don't know how long. Why bother?

Then last month I took a trip out west. Nevada and California. Las Vegas,
Reno, San Francisco, etc. I had no clue that there were so many areas
where cell coverage doesn't exist. On one occasion I mapped out a route
using Google Maps on my laptop and wrote down a number of via points to
put into my phone because I knew didn't want to take the direct route
that my phone would use. That's always worked for me back east.

Well, you get out into the deserts of Nevada or outside the major metropolitan
areas of California and your smartphone doesn't do you any good. I've got a
list of via points with me but no way of knowing if I am on the correct
route or not.

Someone who fully appreciates my situation.

I'm sure there will be places without cell towers.

Does this mean a compass app on the cellphone won't work either?


At one point we were driving from Tonopah, NV to Reno, via a very scenic
route when we lost cell coverage. I assumed I was still heading the right
way but I didn't know when/where the next turn was going to be. When you
are out in the middle of nowhere, one missed turn and you could drive hours

I think there was a Hitchcock episode where they were totally lost in
the desert. (At least one of the two of them was.)

out of your way. So we're driving along, feeling lost (but not really knowing)
and suddenly we see a sign that says "We miss you already! Come back soon!"

Wait...what? Who misses us? Come back to where? The next sign we see is
"Welcome to California". Huh? California? What are we doing in California?
It was totally my fault,

We don't need to assign blame here. As I said about my hiking club, Any
event where everyone comes back alive is a success.

but as I was mapping out the scenic route from
Tonopah to Reno, I neglected to notice that we were going to pass into
California for a short period. Luckily, California has those agricultural
inspection stations soon after you cross the border, so we were quickly
assured that we were on the right road. The nice lady even told us how
far we were from our next turn so we felt a lot more comfortable after that.

The next time I head out that way you can be sure I'll have my Garmin with
me.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 09:48:00 -0800 (PST), Ivan
Vegvary wrote:

Doesn't work in the dark, but I rely on people's satellite dishes to c show me south.

A friend pointed that out to me, but the one time I needed it I couldn't
find one. Nice n'hood. I'm sure they had them but the yards were too
big with too many trees and bushes. (This was right in Baltimore, but
on probably the only street within 5 miles of my house that I'd never
taken in all these years. Very tucked away, very close to downtown. I
wonder if the streets existend when I first got here.

I think I used that coming back from Pa. too.

On that trip I passed a modern, ranch style house with a clothes line
from the house to near the street, and when I looked to my right, I saw
they had a buggy too. And maybe even a guy in dark blue overalls. It
was an Amish family's house but not a traditional farmhouse or a farm.

I wish I'd paid more attention exactly where I was.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 07:55:43 -0500, Retired
wrote:

On 12/16/16 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

*No, they are not*

Bummer. So I have to actually go look at Mazda and Kia and maybe even
Fiat and see what they use in the US. Maybe that will help. (They
don't promise you the make of car you sign up for. )

,,,,,,,,,,


If all you need is a *portable* compass, consider an "old-school"
automotive compass such as this one:

https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p...551/BK_7305551

I've had ones like this. They barely work. 45 years ago I wrote to
Airguide to ask if I bought a more expensive model would it work better,
and they wrote back to say, "No, they are all the same and only the case
is different" and they enclosed 2 or 3 more pieces of 2-sided tape, so I
could find a better location. Might they would work better now?

I've also used the Radio Shack dashmounted electronic one and that
worked well but reqires power from the fusebox, or I guess the cigarette
lighter. I still have that and it's smaller and lighter than the
mirror. So maybe I should connect a cigarette plug and take that. It
required calibration, which required knowing which direction was north,
which tends to require a compass.

I also have another one, never used, that I gave to a friend. He died
about a year ago at 79 and either his brother gave everything to
Goodwill or when my friend's apartment flooded he had already taken it
to his sister's, who told me I should come and look for, more or less,
whatever I want. To calibrate that one had to drive around in circles.

Also the rearview mirror doesn't require anything more than driving
around in circles a few times, and it figures everythng out.


The posters here gave me the idea to use a cellphone app, and that woudl
be v. good but I don't have a magnetometer in my phone, which excludes
about half of them, and maybe the others need cell towers nearby.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 20:52:01 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 15:06:32 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 11:58:39 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:47:02 AM UTC-5, Krispy Kreme wrote:
On 12/16/2016 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.

Paper maps and a compass? Will you be packing a sextant as well? Are you traveling by horse?

I can't recall using a compass in a mirror in a car for anything other
than novelty amusement. With so many GPS tools available as either
standalone or as part of a smartphone, a compass is kind of a relic
and not particularly useful. If you need to get from A to B, the GPS
will tell you how, the best route, etc. The compass will only tell
you what direction you're headed in and with twisting turning roads,
even that isn't much use.

For the last many years, I have depended on my smartphone for navigating.
I haven't updated my Garmin GPS in I don't know how long. Why bother?

Then last month I took a trip out west. Nevada and California. Las Vegas,
Reno, San Francisco, etc. I had no clue that there were so many areas
where cell coverage doesn't exist. On one occasion I mapped out a route
using Google Maps on my laptop and wrote down a number of via points to
put into my phone because I knew didn't want to take the direct route
that my phone would use. That's always worked for me back east.

Well, you get out into the deserts of Nevada or outside the major metropolitan
areas of California and your smartphone doesn't do you any good. I've got a
list of via points with me but no way of knowing if I am on the correct
route or not.

Someone who fully appreciates my situation.

I'm sure there will be places without cell towers.

Does this mean a compass app on the cellphone won't work either?
Nope That app doesan't require connectivity.

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:07:22 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

You can rent a GPS. This is just one example of a site that rents GPS specific to your
destination. I have no idea how the prices compare to other places, it's just an example
to show that the rental service exists.

https://www.lowergear.com/product.php/cat/27

Obviously, you can also check with the rental agency to see what they charge for a GPS.
Alway - always - ask if they can do better than the first price they give you. The worst they
can say is no. You might get a better deal by asking at the location where you pick up the
car. They are typically more flexible than the 800 reservation number.

When I went to pick up my car at the Las Vegas airport, I got upgraded to a full size for the
price of a mid just by asking the nice lady that was walking me to my car. "Are there any free
upgrades available?" "Sure, let's go pick out a full size car."

If you are willing to take a chance, you can find GPS's on eBay and Craigslist, but you may
have pay something to have the European maps loaded.

Of course, there is always the "Buy and Return" method if that sort of thing doesn't bother
you.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.
Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 20:31:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:07:22 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

You can rent a GPS. This is just one example of a site that rents GPS specific to your
destination. I have no idea how the prices compare to other places, it's just an example
to show that the rental service exists.

https://www.lowergear.com/product.php/cat/27

Obviously, you can also check with the rental agency to see what they charge for a GPS.
Alway - always - ask if they can do better than the first price they give you. The worst they
can say is no. You might get a better deal by asking at the location where you pick up the
car. They are typically more flexible than the 800 reservation number.

When I went to pick up my car at the Las Vegas airport, I got upgraded to a full size for the
price of a mid just by asking the nice lady that was walking me to my car. "Are there any free
upgrades available?" "Sure, let's go pick out a full size car."

If you are willing to take a chance, you can find GPS's on eBay and Craigslist, but you may
have pay something to have the European maps loaded.

Of course, there is always the "Buy and Return" method if that sort of thing doesn't bother
you.
Every european car rental I have used offered a GPS rental with the
car. I didn't need it because I had Euro map on my TomTom which I had
with me.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:01:43 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still

That's good enough. When I'm not moving, I really don't have to know
which way I'm (not) going.

.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

Good point. So we're back to "in the car" problem, what makes it so
hard to set the compensating magnets on early car compasses.. Maybe my
rear view mirror one works so well because it's up high, away from
speakers, and surrounded by glass. (And in my car the roof is mostly
canvas.)

So I'm better off with the GPS, which works out since I don't have a
magnetometer.

It only showed 20 apps when I looked the first time, but now it shows
more than 100. I'm sure I'll find some that say they use GPS. I just
checked and the phone itself has A-GPS.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:03:11 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 20:31:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:07:22 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

You can rent a GPS. This is just one example of a site that rents GPS specific to your
destination. I have no idea how the prices compare to other places, it's just an example
to show that the rental service exists.

https://www.lowergear.com/product.php/cat/27

Obviously, you can also check with the rental agency to see what they charge for a GPS.
Alway - always - ask if they can do better than the first price they give you. The worst they
can say is no. You might get a better deal by asking at the location where you pick up the
car. They are typically more flexible than the 800 reservation number.

When I went to pick up my car at the Las Vegas airport, I got upgraded to a full size for the
price of a mid just by asking the nice lady that was walking me to my car. "Are there any free
upgrades available?" "Sure, let's go pick out a full size car."

That 's a good idea. And it won't be the summer, which I think is their
busy season, so they might have extra cars. (To be fair, I had a teeny
car the last time and it was big enough for me. I think it was a Fiat
Panda. ) Still this time I might have 2 passengers.

If you are willing to take a chance, you can find GPS's on eBay and Craigslist, but you may
have pay something to have the European maps loaded.

Of course, there is always the "Buy and Return" method if that sort of thing doesn't bother
you.

I don't do that. It's stealing.

Every european car rental I have used offered a GPS rental with the
car. I didn't need it because I had Euro map on my TomTom which I had
with me.

On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 3:22:28 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 20:31:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


Obviously, you can also check with the rental agency to see what they charge for a GPS.
Alway - always - ask if they can do better than the first price they give you. The worst they
can say is no. You might get a better deal by asking at the location where you pick up the
car. They are typically more flexible than the 800 reservation number.


That 's a good idea. And it won't be the summer, which I think is their
busy season, so they might have extra cars. (To be fair, I had a teeny
car the last time and it was big enough for me. I think it was a Fiat
Panda. ) Still this time I might have 2 passengers.

Ask them if they gave a GPS or can borrow one.

On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 3:18:33 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:01:43 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still

That's good enough. When I'm not moving, I really don't have to know
which way I'm (not) going.

.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

Good point. So we're back to "in the car" problem, what makes it so
hard to set the compensating magnets on early car compasses.. Maybe my
rear view mirror one works so well because it's up high, away from
speakers, and surrounded by glass. (And in my car the roof is mostly
canvas.)

So I'm better off with the GPS, which works out since I don't have a
magnetometer.

It only showed 20 apps when I looked the first time, but now it shows
more than 100. I'm sure I'll find some that say they use GPS. I just
checked and the phone itself has A-GPS.

Just to be clear, any GPS app on a smartphone, whether built in like Google Maps or
one that you download, will require cell service. It not a like a standalone GPS that
uses the GPS satellites.

That is the issue that I ran into out west. No cell service, no routing information.

On 12/16/2016 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.


Yah, I'd definitely have some paper maps but I'd also have a tablet (14" min) with built in GPS and offline maps and wireless data capable.

On 12/17/2016 10:07 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:


Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

You are going for 10 weeks? Spend $159 and sell it for $75 when you
return. For $7.50 a week you have excellent navigation, points of
interest, gas stations, etc. You may even find it to be handy around
town when you get back.

Really a small add-on considering the total cost of the trip, not to
mention the convenience that comes with it. Especially in the cities
where finding street signs is not always easy and when you do, they have
38 letters in a language you are not familiar with. Easier to follow
the arrow that shows the turn.

No way would I go to Europe without one these days.

On 12/18/2016 12:03 AM, wrote:

Every european car rental I have used offered a GPS rental with the
car. I didn't need it because I had Euro map on my TomTom which I had
with me.


One thing I forgot to mention. When you take your own GPS you can enter
the places you will be going to ahead of time at your convenience, not
in the airport parking lot. That alone is woth something.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:18:27 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:01:43 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still

That's good enough. When I'm not moving, I really don't have to know
which way I'm (not) going.

.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

Good point. So we're back to "in the car" problem, what makes it so
hard to set the compensating magnets on early car compasses.. Maybe my
rear view mirror one works so well because it's up high, away from
speakers, and surrounded by glass. (And in my car the roof is mostly
canvas.)

And it is only accutae to "about" 45 degrees. It says n, nne,ne e, se,
sse, s,ssw, sw,w,nw,nnw. and N.. Accuracy to even 5 degrees is almost
impossible with the cheap mirror compasses.

So I'm better off with the GPS, which works out since I don't have a
magnetometer.

It only showed 20 apps when I looked the first time, but now it shows
more than 100. I'm sure I'll find some that say they use GPS. I just
checked and the phone itself has A-GPS.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 06:09:15 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 3:18:33 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:01:43 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still

That's good enough. When I'm not moving, I really don't have to know
which way I'm (not) going.

.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

Good point. So we're back to "in the car" problem, what makes it so
hard to set the compensating magnets on early car compasses.. Maybe my
rear view mirror one works so well because it's up high, away from
speakers, and surrounded by glass. (And in my car the roof is mostly
canvas.)

So I'm better off with the GPS, which works out since I don't have a
magnetometer.

It only showed 20 apps when I looked the first time, but now it shows
more than 100. I'm sure I'll find some that say they use GPS. I just
checked and the phone itself has A-GPS.

Just to be clear, any GPS app on a smartphone, whether built in like Google Maps or
one that you download, will require cell service. It not a like a standalone GPS that
uses the GPS satellites.

That is the issue that I ran into out west. No cell service, no routing information.
Not true. They use the GPS satelites. If you have downloadable maps
you don't need a data connection. The GPS will aso give you direction
of travel and precise location co-ordinates without a data (or even
phone) connection.

There are downloadable map apps available for almost all smart phones
- but your storage may not allow much area to be covered, or much
detait. depends on the phone.

Going into the settings menues you can almost always get the actual
GPS co-ordinates in raw form. Apps like Speedview give you
groundspeed and heading, as well as elevation when in motion.

has brought this to us :
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:18:27 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:01:43 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still

That's good enough. When I'm not moving, I really don't have to know
which way I'm (not) going.

.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

Good point. So we're back to "in the car" problem, what makes it so
hard to set the compensating magnets on early car compasses.. Maybe my
rear view mirror one works so well because it's up high, away from
speakers, and surrounded by glass. (And in my car the roof is mostly
canvas.)

And it is only accutae to "about" 45 degrees. It says n, nne,ne e, se,
sse, s,ssw, sw,w,nw,nnw. and N.. Accuracy to even 5 degrees is almost
impossible with the cheap mirror compasses.

That's strange, usually they are four, eight, or 16 point IME.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 16:15:07 -0500,
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:18:27 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:01:43 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still

That's good enough. When I'm not moving, I really don't have to know
which way I'm (not) going.

.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

Good point. So we're back to "in the car" problem, what makes it so
hard to set the compensating magnets on early car compasses.. Maybe my
rear view mirror one works so well because it's up high, away from
speakers, and surrounded by glass. (And in my car the roof is mostly
canvas.)

And it is only accutae to "about" 45 degrees. It says n, nne,ne e, se,
sse, s,ssw, sw,w,nw,nnw. and N.. Accuracy to even 5 degrees is almost
impossible with the cheap mirror compasses.

It wasn't that cheap. I think it was $150***. And it doesn't even
have nne or ssw. Just ne and sw. I was a little disappointed about
that, but only theoretically, because like many guys, the cooler the
better.

In practice though S vs. SW is enough for me. My major goal is to not
go north when I think I'm going south. Or anywhere between NE and NW
when I t hink I'm going somewhere between SE and SW**.

Because the roads don't go straight and rarely point exactly north etc.
so it doesn't matter exactly which direction I'm going. That I know the
general direction is enough.

It's not like I'm doing orienteering, or searching for hidden treasure.

**ONce in a while I'll want to know SW from S, and so I'm glad it's not
just 4 compass points.

***It also has an outside thermometer, but I already had that, and I
can open the window and stick my hand out. And it has l and r cabin
lights. Convertibles used to be very shy of dome lights, but my current
one has them, so Ididnt' need that either. There were two makes of
mirror for sale. The other displayed the direction I think with an LCD
in teh corner of the mirror itself. I didnt' buy that because when
spring comes, I'll probably put a wide convex mirror over the compass
mirror and the one I did buy had the compass reading below where the
add-on mirror would go, so I will still be able to see it.


When I lived in Indiana, I didn't need a compass. All (but southern
Indiana I hear) is flat and the roads and streets are almost always NS
or EW, and without even trying, I keep track the number of turns I've
made, so I always know which direction I'm going. Even oblique roads
are not a challenge because all the other roads interset them at the
same angle, unless the road changes direction, but I know what direction
the intersecting roads go, so I know what direction I'm going.

So I'm better off with the GPS, which works out since I don't have a
magnetometer.

It only showed 20 apps when I looked the first time, but now it shows
more than 100. I'm sure I'll find some that say they use GPS. I just
checked and the phone itself has A-GPS.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 10:39:15 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:

On 12/18/2016 12:03 AM, wrote:

Every european car rental I have used offered a GPS rental with the
car. I didn't need it because I had Euro map on my TomTom which I had
with me.


One thing I forgot to mention. When you take your own GPS you can enter
the places you will be going to ahead of time at your convenience, not
in the airport parking lot. That alone is woth something.

?? They let you in ahead of time because you have a GPS? I can see
that for the GPS convention, but why do others care?

On 12/18/2016 9:06 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 10:39:15 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:

On 12/18/2016 12:03 AM, wrote:

Every european car rental I have used offered a GPS rental with the
car. I didn't need it because I had Euro map on my TomTom which I had
with me.


One thing I forgot to mention. When you take your own GPS you can enter
the places you will be going to ahead of time at your convenience, not
in the airport parking lot. That alone is woth something.

?? They let you in ahead of time because you have a GPS? I can see
that for the GPS convention, but why do others care?


No, you enter addresses of the places you plan to visit into the gps
before you leave the comfort of your home. Hotels, airports, museums,
whatever. Makes life easier on the other side of the pond as you can
easily set the destination.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:04:32 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 16:15:07 -0500,
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:18:27 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:01:43 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still

That's good enough. When I'm not moving, I really don't have to know
which way I'm (not) going.

.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

Good point. So we're back to "in the car" problem, what makes it so
hard to set the compensating magnets on early car compasses.. Maybe my
rear view mirror one works so well because it's up high, away from
speakers, and surrounded by glass. (And in my car the roof is mostly
canvas.)

And it is only accutae to "about" 45 degrees. It says n, nne,ne e, se,
sse, s,ssw, sw,w,nw,nnw. and N.. Accuracy to even 5 degrees is almost
impossible with the cheap mirror compasses.

It wasn't that cheap. I think it was $150***. And it doesn't even
have nne or ssw. Just ne and sw. I was a little disappointed about
that, but only theoretically, because like many guys, the cooler the
better.

Nowhere did I mention it's price. I didn't say low-priced - I said
CHEAP. At any price, a compas with only 8 points is a "cheap" compass

In practice though S vs. SW is enough for me. My major goal is to not
go north when I think I'm going south. Or anywhere between NE and NW
when I t hink I'm going somewhere between SE and SW**.

In which case a magnetized sewing needle and a piece of string will do
you just fine - - -

Because the roads don't go straight and rarely point exactly north etc.
so it doesn't matter exactly which direction I'm going. That I know the
general direction is enough.

A lot better to know what road you are on and where it goes. So the
MAP is more important than the compass. I generally use my GPS to tell
me where I am, not necessarily where I am going.

It's not like I'm doing orienteering, or searching for hidden treasure.

**ONce in a while I'll want to know SW from S, and so I'm glad it's not
just 4 compass points.

***It also has an outside thermometer, but I already had that, and I
can open the window and stick my hand out. And it has l and r cabin
lights. Convertibles used to be very shy of dome lights, but my current
one has them, so Ididnt' need that either. There were two makes of
mirror for sale. The other displayed the direction I think with an LCD
in teh corner of the mirror itself. I didnt' buy that because when
spring comes, I'll probably put a wide convex mirror over the compass
mirror and the one I did buy had the compass reading below where the
add-on mirror would go, so I will still be able to see it.


When I lived in Indiana, I didn't need a compass. All (but southern
Indiana I hear) is flat and the roads and streets are almost always NS
or EW, and without even trying, I keep track the number of turns I've
made, so I always know which direction I'm going. Even oblique roads
are not a challenge because all the other roads interset them at the
same angle, unless the road changes direction, but I know what direction
the intersecting roads go, so I know what direction I'm going.

So I'm better off with the GPS, which works out since I don't have a
magnetometer.

It only showed 20 apps when I looked the first time, but now it shows
more than 100. I'm sure I'll find some that say they use GPS. I just
checked and the phone itself has A-GPS.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:50:09 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/18/2016 9:06 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 10:39:15 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:

On 12/18/2016 12:03 AM, wrote:

Every european car rental I have used offered a GPS rental with the
car. I didn't need it because I had Euro map on my TomTom which I had
with me.


One thing I forgot to mention. When you take your own GPS you can enter
the places you will be going to ahead of time at your convenience, not
in the airport parking lot. That alone is woth something.

?? They let you in ahead of time because you have a GPS? I can see
that for the GPS convention, but why do others care?


No, you enter addresses of the places you plan to visit into the gps
before you leave the comfort of your home. Hotels, airports, museums,
whatever. Makes life easier on the other side of the pond as you can
easily set the destination.

We sit down with paper maps for a month before we go, marking them up
and creating Plan A, B, C and then we may do something completely
different. Nav is really only handy when we are finding the hotel my
wife just booked on her phone and the phone does it all.

On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 4:23:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 06:09:15 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 3:18:33 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:01:43 -0500,
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:07:16 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:45:00 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:



I don't carry paper maps any more but long before a trip I do use them.
Always good to know the relative distance to where you are and where you
want to go. Compass is handy but you have to be careful. The roads
often twist and turn so you may show south in portions but the road is
going to end up east.

Last few trips to Europe I used a GPS and it is very handy to have.
Bigger and better than using a phone, IMO.

I'm just not willing to spend more money on something I will only use on
this trip.

By phone, do you mean an app for the cellphone. I thought you meant
that so Iwent to the Playstore and it lists 20 compass apps.

However about half require the phone to have a magnetometer, which I
don't have,, and I don't know what they others require. Maybe that cell
towers be nearby and that won't be true everywhere I plan to go.

There are several ways the cell phone can get position, and I suppose
they will also tell north, but other than using cell towers, I don't
know what they are.

Magnetometer or GPS will give you north with a "compass" app. There
are apps that use magnetometer, and ones that use GPS. GPS tells you
which way you are going while in motion but will not tell you which
way is north when standing still

That's good enough. When I'm not moving, I really don't have to know
which way I'm (not) going.

.Magnetometer gives you north
reference even when not using, but can be affected by external
magnetics.

Good point. So we're back to "in the car" problem, what makes it so
hard to set the compensating magnets on early car compasses.. Maybe my
rear view mirror one works so well because it's up high, away from
speakers, and surrounded by glass. (And in my car the roof is mostly
canvas.)

So I'm better off with the GPS, which works out since I don't have a
magnetometer.

It only showed 20 apps when I looked the first time, but now it shows
more than 100. I'm sure I'll find some that say they use GPS. I just
checked and the phone itself has A-GPS.

Just to be clear, any GPS app on a smartphone, whether built in like Google Maps or
one that you download, will require cell service. It not a like a standalone GPS that
uses the GPS satellites.

That is the issue that I ran into out west. No cell service, no routing information.
Not true. They use the GPS satelites. If you have downloadable maps
you don't need a data connection. The GPS will aso give you direction
of travel and precise location co-ordinates without a data (or even
phone) connection.

There are downloadable map apps available for almost all smart phones
- but your storage may not allow much area to be covered, or much
detait. depends on the phone.

Going into the settings menues you can almost always get the actual
GPS co-ordinates in raw form. Apps like Speedview give you
groundspeed and heading, as well as elevation when in motion.

You are correct, I was rushing and had a brain fart. Smartphones do indeed
use GPS.

As far as downloading the maps for use offline, that works fine if you
know/suspect that you will need the offline maps before you leave.

Aside from the limited space allowable for downloaded maps (I think mine is
about 1750 MB) you need a data connection in order to do the download. In the
case of my trip out west, I had no idea that I was going to lose Google Maps's
routing capability until it was already lost. I guess I could have backtracked
until I had a signal again and then used a bunch of data to download the area
but that wastes time, gas and data.

Since I still have my Garmin 350 with lifetime map updates, I'll keep it
updated from now on and be sure it's with me the next time I head out into
the more rural areas of our fine country.

The main point of all this was to let micky know that a GPS with the proper
maps is probably his best option. The "buy and sell later" seems like the
best strategy if he really doesn't need one for the long term.

posted for all of us...



On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 07:55:43 -0500, Retired wrote:

On 12/16/16 11:33 PM, micky wrote:
I have a long foreign trip planned starting in March and plan to rent a
car, maybe a Kia Picante (I think it is) or a Mazda 2.

I will have a phone with maps, most days (If I know where I'm going the
night before and take the time to dl the proper map) and I may have
paper maps of much of the area (I really prefer paper maps.) but there
will be times when I'm just wandering around, on roads that wind and
have barely any relationship to north, south, east or west.

I just installed a rear view mirror with a compass in my own car, and
it's great. I've used the sun or the shadow of telephone poles and
speed limit signs to navigate in the past, but that's really hard when
it's anywhere near noon, or when it's overcast.

The rentacar will probably be this year's model or last year's, and I
think they will be too cheap to have a compass, but they may have a
electically self-dimming mirror... Do you think even these little cars
will?

So I wonder what you think about the idea of taking my rear view mirror
with me on this trip, and changing the mirror for my own until I return
the car?? Likely to work? I don't see how I can get in trouble,
right? Is a cheap, small Japanese car likely to have an electric
mirror. (used for self-dimming)

I planned to take a hand compass, but that might mean stopping and
getting out of the car each time I want to check direction.

My own car doesn't have the standard 6 pin connector which iiuc late
model cars have for the rear view mirror. But it was easy enough to
figure out which 3 of the 6 pins on the compass/mirror were needed** and
make my own adapter to fit my two pin connector, an adapter that I can
take with me. It has two wires that are stripped, twisted, and soldered
so that I can insert them in the 2-pin socket that is meant for the
mirror.

Won't the rentacar have either a 2-pin socket like mine, or a 6-pin
socket that will just plug into my mirror without any adapter? These
things are standardized aren't they?

*No, they are not*



I would go look at such cars at local dealers to see if the mirrors are
electric, but I don't think they have those models here. (I"ll still go
to look at the connectors (but I don't think they'll let me unplug
anything!)

I can buy an allen wrench, or bring one if my luggage is not too heavy.
If it doesnt' take an allen wrench, I can buy whatever it takes. I can
buy or bring a cheap meter to verify which lead is positive, but won't
the 2-pin connector be just like mine, and the 6-pin connector go on in
only one way? So I won't need a meter.

Just this past Monday I was coming back from Camden NJ on local roads,
headed for the Delaware Mem. Bridge. The sun was down but it was still
light out. Two cars in front of me turned right and one car behind me
did, and I figured that right was the way to go, but the compass showed
I was going west and if I turned, I'd be going north, away from the
bridge! I love the compass.


**It also has a thermometer, but a) the car already has one, b) I'd have
to install a sensor near the grill and run a wire, so I'm glad about a.


If all you need is a *portable* compass, consider an "old-school"
automotive compass such as this one:

https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p...551/BK_7305551

I like this solution as the best. Others are pale in comparison. Then you
can relate the points to your paper maps.

--
Tekkie