On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 08:20:08 -0400, songbird wrote:

why spend money on a nutrient poor and
expensive item when you have tons of more
nutritionally complex material available
for free?

It's more of a science project than a commercial venture.

For example, I found out that mixing in baking flour might not be the best
solution because it has a lot of amylopectin, which, I'm told, will just
form a hard "clay" like substance in the soil.

I do plan on mixing in some bottom-of-the-pile wood-chip detritus and maybe
even some under-oak leaf rakings, which, I'm told, will contain zillions of
fibers from fungi, which help by allowing better water penetration and
adsorption (on the fungi fibers) and with good bacterial action (such as
nitrogen fixing).

I might even throw in some Guadalupe manure from San Jose residents' poop,
but it might be easier to use non-coal wood-original charcoal ground up to
add to the existing "dirt" to make my own "terra preta":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

Apparently charcoal has an immense surface area, acres of surface area, in
fact, in a single handful of soil (I'm told), which aids in the adsorption
of water and associated dissolved nutrients.
http://www.nakedwhiz.com/lumpindexpage.htm

In addition, I'm told, I can add calcium carbonate, which also helps in the
adsorption of moisture in this otherwise dry soil.

Of course, considering what I'm starting with, it won't be easy by any
means, but, it should be doable if I think it all the way through.

Here is the "rock" I'm starting with, before it weathers to "stone" and
then eventually layers into "soil" before I displaced into my "dirt"...
http://i.cubeupload.com/BLWg5f.jpg

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 6:33:42 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2016 20:17:51 -0400, FromTheRafters wrote:

I was more referring to inorganic, organic(dead), organic(living), but
yes there is a rock cycle of sorts. Even including minerals used by
organisms falling to the ocean floor when they die and eventually
becoming limestone. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Speaking off "organic" dead plant material, do people ever just sprinkle
"flour" in the soil?

http://i.cubeupload.com/1m6HD9.jpg

Seems to me that 50-pound Costco bag of flour would be the perfect thing to
give organically poor soil some readily available organics.

What do you think?

Flour is way, way, way too processed to be of any use. Besides,
when the water hits it, it make paste and will harden up.

Cindy Hamilton

On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 10:50:52 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

As you said, it is a melange consisting of a considerable variety of rock
types both metamorphic and sedimentary. That variety gives rise to a number
of soil types.

This link to the statigraphy of Mendocino County...
http://www.mendowine.com/files/Tom%2...0co%20geol.pdf
near the bottom shows some. The nearest in appearance to the type you
linked is the Redvine Sandy Clay Loam. Above that - about halfway down - is
a location map.with which you should be able to get close to your location.

Thanks. I have a *lot* of the geology texts for my area, since it's one of
the most studied areas on the planet (lots of earthquakes occur here).

Here's a photo I took today of the classic "ribboning" of the sedimentary
rock layers in cut along my rather steep driveway.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BLWg5f.jpg

You can see that the rocks have been blended by a blender of sorts, which
they term the "nightmare of the Franciscan sediments" in geology books.

On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 10:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Flour is way, way, way too processed to be of any use. Besides,
when the water hits it, it make paste and will harden up.

I belatedly agree wholeheartedly with you.
The flour will basically turn the soil to "stone".

I have worked with some of the locals to come up with a "plan" to convert
the soil into home-made potting soil.

This is what we start with, which is 30-million year old beds of sediment
from the ocean bottom which have been shoved onto the continent via the
wonders of plate tectonics:
http://i.cubeupload.com/BLWg5f.jpg

I can dig a thousand foot hole, and it would still be "this stuff":
http://i.cubeupload.com/9Ssf42.jpg

So I dig it out of the ravines, where it collects as "top soil":
http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg

Given that organics are so powerful (complex, but powerful), my new plan is
to add fungus-filled leaf rakings from either underneath the oak trees or
at the bottom of the wood-chip piles dotting my yard everywhe
http://i.cubeupload.com/3cudHY.jpg

I may even burn some of this spare wood "chunks" into charcoal, which
apparently has "acres" of surface area per handful!
http://i.cubeupload.com/8bCVNf.jpg

That way, I can make my own "terra preta":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

In addition, I'm told, I can add calcium via some of my readily available
pool chemicals, which also helps in the adsorption of moisture in this
otherwise dry soil.

And, of course, I'm gonna need "fertilizer" of some sort.

Already two of the neighbors said I can have all the manure off their goat
and alpaca filled property that I can handle!

On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 18:29:06 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

In addition, I'm told, I can add calcium via some of my readily available
pool chemicals, which also helps in the adsorption of moisture in this
otherwise dry soil.

This is getting too complicated. A garden is not so complex that you
can't still teach the kids. How big is the garden area? Do you have
a rotor-tiller? Can you buy a partial load of compost from a local
garden center for delivery?

What gives you the notion to use flour and/or pool chemicals?

Just some simple things here, already stated, can grow large amounts
of food and the kids learn. Your lovely wife may be right... your dirt
kills her plants :-))

On 9/9/2016 11:45 AM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 09:06:01 -0500, Muggles wrote:

I haven't read *every* post in the discussion, but I was wondering if
you've decided on how you're actually going to amend the soil to grow a
garden?

Well, I found out that mixing in baking flour might not be the best
solution because it has a lot of amylopectin, which, I'm told, will just
form a hard "clay" like substance in the soil.

I do plan on mixing in some bottom-of-the-pile wood-chip detritus and maybe
even some under-oak leaf rakings, which, I'm told, will contain zillions of
fibers from fungi, which help by allowing better water penetration and
adsorption (on the fungi fibers) and with good bacterial action (such as
nitrogen fixing).

I might even throw in some Guadalupe manure from San Jose residents' poop,
but it might be easier to use non-coal wood-original charcoal ground up to
add to the existing "dirt" to make my own "terra preta":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

Apparently charcoal has an immense surface area, acres of surface area, in
fact, in a single handful of soil (I'm told), which aids in the adsorption
of water and associated dissolved nutrients.
http://www.nakedwhiz.com/lumpindexpage.htm

In addition, I'm told, I can add calcium carbonate, which also helps in the
adsorption of moisture in this otherwise dry soil.

Of course, considering what I'm starting with, it won't be easy by any
means, but, it should be doable if I think it all the way through.

Here is the "rock" I'm starting with, before it weathers to "stone" and
then eventually layers into "soil" before I displaced into my "dirt"...
http://i.cubeupload.com/BLWg5f.jpg



Interesting...

Are you going for the "organic gardening" approach?

--
Maggie

On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 16:52:46 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Are you going for the "organic gardening" approach?

I don't believe in "organic".
I took plenty of chemistry in my day as I have multiple degrees.

Organic is meaningless (to me).
I would pay *less* for organic labeled products, but not more.

I just like experiments.
And I like to know exactly what I'm doing.

Details are everything.

On 9/9/2016 7:07 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 16:52:46 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Are you going for the "organic gardening" approach?

I don't believe in "organic".
I took plenty of chemistry in my day as I have multiple degrees.

Really? What are you degrees in?

Organic is meaningless (to me).
I would pay *less* for organic labeled products, but not more.

I just like experiments.
And I like to know exactly what I'm doing.

Details are everything.

I like details, too.

This year when it came time to plant in my raised beds, I had to
supplement the soil for several reasons. I didn't have enough compost
for all of my beds, so I created compost IN each raised bed. Maybe you
could do the same thing?

--
Maggie

On Fri, 09 Sep 2016 13:30:54 -0700, Oren wrote:

This is getting too complicated. A garden is not so complex that you
can't still teach the kids. How big is the garden area? Do you have
a rotor-tiller? Can you buy a partial load of compost from a local
garden center for delivery?

The garden area is tiny. Maybe forty feet by fifteen feet is fenced off
from the critters. But right now, we're just using five-gallon buckets of
Costco detergent pails.

What gives you the notion to use flour and/or pool chemicals?

The flour was for adding "organics" but it fails upon closer inspection.
Again, I have 50 pound bags of flour that the wife uses for baking.
I guess I could use sugar. She has 25 pound bags of that stuff too.

Just some simple things here, already stated, can grow large amounts
of food and the kids learn. Your lovely wife may be right... your dirt
kills her plants :-))

She's mad at me because she planted her "babies" in that planter and
nothing came of it. She cares very much about all her babies!

On 9/9/2016 10:56 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Sep 2016 13:30:54 -0700, Oren wrote:

This is getting too complicated. A garden is not so complex that you
can't still teach the kids. How big is the garden area? Do you have
a rotor-tiller? Can you buy a partial load of compost from a local
garden center for delivery?

The garden area is tiny. Maybe forty feet by fifteen feet is fenced off
from the critters. But right now, we're just using five-gallon buckets of
Costco detergent pails.

What gives you the notion to use flour and/or pool chemicals?

The flour was for adding "organics" but it fails upon closer inspection.
Again, I have 50 pound bags of flour that the wife uses for baking.
I guess I could use sugar. She has 25 pound bags of that stuff too.

Just some simple things here, already stated, can grow large amounts
of food and the kids learn. Your lovely wife may be right... your dirt
kills her plants :-))

She's mad at me because she planted her "babies" in that planter and
nothing came of it. She cares very much about all her babies!


Why would you put flour in the garden soil?

--
Maggie

On 9/9/2016 8:07 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 16:52:46 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Are you going for the "organic gardening" approach?

I don't believe in "organic".
I took plenty of chemistry in my day as I have multiple degrees.

Organic is meaningless (to me).
I would pay *less* for organic labeled products, but not more.

I just like experiments.
And I like to know exactly what I'm doing.

Details are everything.


Yah, organic standards are silly.

Sprinkle some Imazamox or Glyphosate on genetically modified food
and you'll have a very healthy dish. And don't worry about soil
nutrient depletion, that's just propaganda from the health nuts.

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 18:29:06 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

In addition, I'm told, I can add calcium via some of my readily available
pool chemicals, which also helps in the adsorption of moisture in this
otherwise dry soil.

This is getting too complicated. A garden is not so complex that you
can't still teach the kids.

+1

If I wanted to teach the kids I would fill several of the 5 gallon bucket
with his dirt then...

#1. plant seeds, water regularly

#2. plant seeds, sprinkle a little time release fertilizer on top, water
regularly

#3. stir in peat moss, plant seeds, water regularly

#4. same as #3 + time release fertilizer

etc.

Danny D. wrote:
Muggles wrote:

Are you going for the "organic gardening" approach?

I don't believe in "organic".

me either, not since the gov't messed up the term.
natural methods are good enough.


I took plenty of chemistry in my day as I have multiple degrees.

Organic is meaningless (to me).
I would pay *less* for organic labeled products, but not more.

if you are using less inputs and can still get
results eventually it should result in lower cost
produce, but the demand is great enough at present
that the price/premium is holding.

i don't sell the stuff we grow here, but often
give it away. that's as low cost as it gets...


I just like experiments.
And I like to know exactly what I'm doing.

Details are everything.

yep, and sustainability over the long-haul.
is your topsoil improving each year or at least
holding up? or are you farming subsoil?

when i look around here most farmers have taken
prime topsoil and over the years turned it back
into subsoil. where i grow my veggies now used
to be climax forest for our area (150 years ago)
and there would have been about a foot of prime
topsoil. all gone, farmed away and back to clay.
it's fertile if you treat it right. used to be
a christmas tree farm here and then farmed again
for a while, then fallow for a few years before
we bought it.

i've been doing experiments around the place
since i've been here (about 10 years of the 20
years total we've owned this plot). i now have
a great example of a green manure patch which
puts out more nitrogen than the rest of my
gardens could ever use. when i started back
there the topsoil was gone, the subsoil was
compacted and there was no support for much of
anything, even weeds struggled back there with
all topsoil and organic matter being washed
away in any heavy rains.

first thing i did was level it (tilled a few
inches and then leveled). there were no worms
or night crawlers in there. then i seeded it
with a mix of birdsfoot trefoil and alfalfa and
kept it weeded so those were the dominant plants.
they are nitrogen fixers. after the second
season i started chopping them back once or twice
a growing season. which increases the rate of
nutrient cycling and increases organic matter.

after six years the previously uniform clay
subsoil layer has changed into about a foot of
noticeably darker soil. the worms and night-
crawlers are now all through there and i can
still harvest a few hundred lbs of good green
manure for use in other gardens if they need
a nitrogen boost.

i'm now increasing the complexity in the area
by adding other plants (strawberries, turnips,
radishes, beets, buckwheat, etc.) and so the space
is going to become even more productive now that
there is good topsoil. i've already taken several
hundred pounds of garlic out of there too. which
would take over if i let it. but i'm trying to
remove it as getting garlic out of heavy clay in
the middle of summer is not very easy... i like
eating it as green garlic and the worms love it if
i pull it out and let it dry out on the surface.

so, um, yeah, let's keep on growing and learning
what we can, but simple biology and knowing about
ecology will trump the narrow views of chemistry
any time. it's nice to know what is happening with
the chemistry of the soils, but as i've found out
over the years it's completely not needed if you
know how to farm for the diversity of the soil
community and soil organic matter drives that.

the simple chemistry approach ignores that. if
you go by strictly looking at NPK you're missing
95% of what is important.

having the examples of the surrounding farm fields
i don't need to see any more examples of their
practices.


songbird

On 9/10/2016 9:47 AM, songbird wrote:
Danny D. wrote:
Muggles wrote:

Are you going for the "organic gardening" approach?

I don't believe in "organic".

me either, not since the gov't messed up the term.
natural methods are good enough.


I took plenty of chemistry in my day as I have multiple degrees.

Organic is meaningless (to me).
I would pay *less* for organic labeled products, but not more.

if you are using less inputs and can still get
results eventually it should result in lower cost
produce, but the demand is great enough at present
that the price/premium is holding.

i don't sell the stuff we grow here, but often
give it away. that's as low cost as it gets...


I just like experiments.
And I like to know exactly what I'm doing.

Details are everything.

yep, and sustainability over the long-haul.
is your topsoil improving each year or at least
holding up? or are you farming subsoil?

when i look around here most farmers have taken
prime topsoil and over the years turned it back
into subsoil. where i grow my veggies now used
to be climax forest for our area (150 years ago)
and there would have been about a foot of prime
topsoil. all gone, farmed away and back to clay.
it's fertile if you treat it right. used to be
a christmas tree farm here and then farmed again
for a while, then fallow for a few years before
we bought it.

i've been doing experiments around the place
since i've been here (about 10 years of the 20
years total we've owned this plot). i now have
a great example of a green manure patch which
puts out more nitrogen than the rest of my
gardens could ever use. when i started back
there the topsoil was gone, the subsoil was
compacted and there was no support for much of
anything, even weeds struggled back there with
all topsoil and organic matter being washed
away in any heavy rains.

first thing i did was level it (tilled a few
inches and then leveled). there were no worms
or night crawlers in there. then i seeded it
with a mix of birdsfoot trefoil and alfalfa and
kept it weeded so those were the dominant plants.
they are nitrogen fixers. after the second
season i started chopping them back once or twice
a growing season. which increases the rate of
nutrient cycling and increases organic matter.

after six years the previously uniform clay
subsoil layer has changed into about a foot of
noticeably darker soil. the worms and night-
crawlers are now all through there and i can
still harvest a few hundred lbs of good green
manure for use in other gardens if they need
a nitrogen boost.

i'm now increasing the complexity in the area
by adding other plants (strawberries, turnips,
radishes, beets, buckwheat, etc.) and so the space
is going to become even more productive now that
there is good topsoil. i've already taken several
hundred pounds of garlic out of there too. which
would take over if i let it. but i'm trying to
remove it as getting garlic out of heavy clay in
the middle of summer is not very easy... i like
eating it as green garlic and the worms love it if
i pull it out and let it dry out on the surface.

so, um, yeah, let's keep on growing and learning
what we can, but simple biology and knowing about
ecology will trump the narrow views of chemistry
any time. it's nice to know what is happening with
the chemistry of the soils, but as i've found out
over the years it's completely not needed if you
know how to farm for the diversity of the soil
community and soil organic matter drives that.

the simple chemistry approach ignores that. if
you go by strictly looking at NPK you're missing
95% of what is important.

having the examples of the surrounding farm fields
i don't need to see any more examples of their
practices.


We started off many years ago doing organic gardening, which for us
meant putting natural stuff into the soil.

--
Maggie

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 03:56:53 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Just some simple things here, already stated, can grow large amounts
of food and the kids learn. Your lovely wife may be right... your dirt
kills her plants :-))

She's mad at me because she planted her "babies" in that planter and
nothing came of it. She cares very much about all her babies!

I'm on her side, now. My bride of 30 years has a "black thumb". Leave
my plants alone woman. I've got the green thumb! (G)

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 08:03:52 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 18:29:06 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

In addition, I'm told, I can add calcium via some of my readily available
pool chemicals, which also helps in the adsorption of moisture in this
otherwise dry soil.

This is getting too complicated. A garden is not so complex that you
can't still teach the kids.

+1

If I wanted to teach the kids I would fill several of the 5 gallon bucket
with his dirt then...

#1. plant seeds, water regularly

#2. plant seeds, sprinkle a little time release fertilizer on top, water
regularly

#3. stir in peat moss, plant seeds, water regularly

#4. same as #3 + time release fertilizer

etc.


If the kids "want" to learn to garden -- give them a shovel. Tell them
the business end and how it operates

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 08:03:52 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

#2. plant seeds, sprinkle a little time release fertilizer on top, water
regularly

Ever see the use of water beads?

"Put the dried gel crystals into a large bowl and cover them with
water. Add more water as needed, allowing them to absorb as much water
as possible. This will take several hours. The beads will swell up
before they're ready to use. Drain off any excess water."

Go on vacation.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 10:47:54 -0400, songbird wrote:

if you are using less inputs and can still get
results eventually it should result in lower cost
produce, but the demand is great enough at present
that the price/premium is holding.

I try to buy food that hasn't been processed, which means nothing in a box
or in a jar or in a can, etc.

For example, I buy eggs instead of mayonnaise in a jar (the only hard part
about making mayonnaise is getting the technique right). Likewise, I use
tomatoes to make ketchup and oh, how I love to add horseradish to make
shrimp sauce!

It's hard to find horseradish outside of a jar, so, sometimes jars are
required - but I try to get the original food instead of the processed
food.

I never buy the meats flavored with "up to 14% saline", simply because I'd
rather not pay meat-prices-per-pound for salt water. So I buy the entire
pork loin from Costco, for example, and then I slice the yard-long meat
into separate inch-thick pork chops.

In the dairy section, I buy the Costco cream, and, along with Trader Joe's
milk and eggs (Costco sells them in too-large a quantity), I can make ice
cream for the grandkids using any flavoring agent I like (although the kids
love oreo cookies in the ice cream - I try to use the mixed nuts instead).

I used to use "real" vanilla fertilized in Madagascar, but now I use the
fake stuff that Costco sells after I exhaustively looked up the difference.

Likewise, I used to buy the 25-pound bag of brown sugar from Costco, until
I realized that, in ice cream anyway, there's no taste difference between
it and the white sugar when mixed in with coffee and/or chocolate.

It's infeasible to start with cocoa beans, but even when I buy cocoa for
the chocolate ice cream, I never buy anything but *pure* cocoa, in that if
it's watered down with sugar or dextrose, I don't get it at any price.

I even stopped buying the fake sugar at Costco in those large yellow bags
(sucralose is the chemical name) simply because they cut it by more than
half with dextrose (I don't like buying things where half is mere filler).

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 00:48:25 -0400, Rexor wrote:

Sprinkle some Imazamox or Glyphosate on genetically modified food
and you'll have a very healthy dish. And don't worry about soil
nutrient depletion, that's just propaganda from the health nuts.

An "organic" sticker is nearly meaningless (IMHO).

Just because a chemical has a horrid sounding name doesn't mean that it's
bad for you (or good for you either).

The chemical name is meaningless other than what it actually does to either
the soil, the food itself, or to the human.

We'd have to take each one on a case-by-case basis - but just putting a
label with a pretty green sticker saying "organic" isn't that solution.

It's just not that simple.

I can't market horrid sounding dihydrogen oxide but I can sell crystal
clear natural water for twice the price, as long as I put a sticker on it
that says "organic".

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:41:51 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:
How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

Ya gotta add stuff!
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta"
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USDA_soil_taxonomy"
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_classification"
"http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Your-Own-Charcoal-at-Home-Video/"
"https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=building+perfect+soil"

On 9/6/2016 10:34 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:09:26 -0600, rbowman wrote:

There are inexpensive soil testing kits that will give you some idea of
what minerals, if any, are present, and the alkalinity. What are you
trying to grow? Different plants prefer different profiles and soil types.

We're just gonna grow food waste.
I envision tomato, garlic, onion, carrot, pepper, and my favorite, horse
radish from the jar of condiments!


Be warned about growing horseradish: where ever you plant it, there it
will always be, forever and ever amen. It is impossible to completely
eradicate that stuff. If that might be a problem, plant it in a pot.