This is my *best* soil:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg
It's half stones:
http://i.cubeupload.com/czWmKi.jpg

Hence two questions ...
Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/lEPHQG.jpg
Q2: If so, how would you fertilize it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in so that
the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons and peppers
grown from their own leftovers.

So she asked me to get her a couple of 5-gallon buckets of "soil" (she
called it "dirt" but dirt and soil, I was told by my college professors,
are two different things - but no matter how many times I tell her the
difference - she still calls it "dirt").

I went to the lowest area of my property to find the most non-rocky soil I
could find (yes, "rock" is different than "stone", as outlined by the same
college professor); but even then, thousands of feet away from the
bulldozed areas, I still ended up with 100% Franciscan sediments currently
weathered to 50% stone and 50% smaller particles.

I sifted out with a quarter-inch grid the smaller particles, but the result
is still a coffee-colored mix of what seems to be relatively infertile
soil.

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

"Danny D." wrote in message
...

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

Add water.

Alternately, go get a bag or two of potting soil.

On 9/6/2016 5:41 AM, Danny D. wrote:
This is my *best* soil:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg
It's half stones:
http://i.cubeupload.com/czWmKi.jpg

Hence two questions ...
Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/lEPHQG.jpg
Q2: If so, how would you fertilize it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in so that
the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons and peppers
grown from their own leftovers.

So she asked me to get her a couple of 5-gallon buckets of "soil" (she
called it "dirt" but dirt and soil, I was told by my college professors,
are two different things - but no matter how many times I tell her the
difference - she still calls it "dirt").

I went to the lowest area of my property to find the most non-rocky soil I
could find (yes, "rock" is different than "stone", as outlined by the same
college professor); but even then, thousands of feet away from the
bulldozed areas, I still ended up with 100% Franciscan sediments currently
weathered to 50% stone and 50% smaller particles.

I sifted out with a quarter-inch grid the smaller particles, but the result
is still a coffee-colored mix of what seems to be relatively infertile
soil.

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

It's the fertilizer and the ability of the media to hold moisture that
is important. After all you can grow plants hydroponically without
soil. Get a good fertilizer from a gardening center. Tomatoes also
like calcium and it pays to add limestone. I use regular cheap bagged
topsoil in my pots.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 6:27:12 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
"Danny D." wrote in message
...

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

Add water.

Alternately, go get a bag or two of potting soil.

+1

Or if there is use for enough, for a couple hundred bucks he
can probably get a load of topsoil delivered. If he has a large
lot, it can be left in a spot for use over time. For that or
his existing soil, a general purposed 10-10-10 type fertilizer
should be fine. I'd test the soil PH though, who knows what
it is, and adjust if needed.

On 9/6/2016 2:41 AM, Danny D. wrote:
This is my *best* soil:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg
It's half stones:
http://i.cubeupload.com/czWmKi.jpg

Hence two questions ...
Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/lEPHQG.jpg
Q2: If so, how would you fertilize it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in so that
the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons and peppers
grown from their own leftovers.

So she asked me to get her a couple of 5-gallon buckets of "soil" (she
called it "dirt" but dirt and soil, I was told by my college professors,
are two different things - but no matter how many times I tell her the
difference - she still calls it "dirt").

I went to the lowest area of my property to find the most non-rocky soil I
could find (yes, "rock" is different than "stone", as outlined by the same
college professor); but even then, thousands of feet away from the
bulldozed areas, I still ended up with 100% Franciscan sediments currently
weathered to 50% stone and 50% smaller particles.

I sifted out with a quarter-inch grid the smaller particles, but the result
is still a coffee-colored mix of what seems to be relatively infertile
soil.

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg


Start hauling in loads of horse manure. Check out Garrod Farms.

http://www.garrodfarms.com/

Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 9/6/2016 2:41 AM, Danny D. wrote:
This is my *best* soil:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg
It's half stones:
http://i.cubeupload.com/czWmKi.jpg

Hence two questions ...
Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/lEPHQG.jpg
Q2: If so, how would you fertilize it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in
so that the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons
and peppers grown from their own leftovers.

So she asked me to get her a couple of 5-gallon buckets of "soil"
(she called it "dirt" but dirt and soil, I was told by my college
professors, are two different things - but no matter how many times
I tell her the difference - she still calls it "dirt").

I went to the lowest area of my property to find the most non-rocky
soil I could find (yes, "rock" is different than "stone", as
outlined by the same college professor); but even then, thousands of
feet away from the bulldozed areas, I still ended up with 100%
Franciscan sediments currently weathered to 50% stone and 50%
smaller particles. I sifted out with a quarter-inch grid the smaller
particles, but the
result is still a coffee-colored mix of what seems to be relatively
infertile soil.

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow
plants? http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg


Start hauling in loads of horse manure. Check out Garrod Farms.

http://www.garrodfarms.com/


Did you know that horse manure can carry viable weed and grass seeds ? For
that reason I will only use it after it's been "hot" composted . Cow manure
on the other hand is safe to use "straight from the producer" due to the way
their digestive system works .
--
Snag

Danny D. wrote:
....
How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

you have a substrate, for growing veggies you'll
need some compost (partially decayed organic materials)
and perhaps some clay to hold moisture. if the compost
is not very good you may also want to add some chopped
and dried alfalfa or other nitrogen rich plant based
material. let it sit (water it once in a while to keep
it moist) for a few weeks.

for other gardening/soil questions the rec.garden
groups still function. i'm very happy to go on at
length about such things.

worm composting is a very good way to keep such
gardens topped up with nutrients...


songbird

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 3:41:54 AM UTC-6, Danny D. wrote:
This is my *best* soil:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg
It's half stones:
http://i.cubeupload.com/czWmKi.jpg

Hence two questions ...
Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/lEPHQG.jpg
Q2: If so, how would you fertilize it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in so that
the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons and peppers
grown from their own leftovers.

So she asked me to get her a couple of 5-gallon buckets of "soil" (she
called it "dirt" but dirt and soil, I was told by my college professors,
are two different things - but no matter how many times I tell her the
difference - she still calls it "dirt").

I went to the lowest area of my property to find the most non-rocky soil I
could find (yes, "rock" is different than "stone", as outlined by the same
college professor); but even then, thousands of feet away from the
bulldozed areas, I still ended up with 100% Franciscan sediments currently
weathered to 50% stone and 50% smaller particles.

I sifted out with a quarter-inch grid the smaller particles, but the result
is still a coffee-colored mix of what seems to be relatively infertile
soil.

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

Just go buy some potting soil and mix with that crap you call soil or just disregard your "soil" and use the potting soil entirely. Couple of big bags should suffice for what you are going to do.
====

On 9/6/2016 9:26 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 9/6/2016 2:41 AM, Danny D. wrote:
This is my *best* soil:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg
It's half stones:
http://i.cubeupload.com/czWmKi.jpg

Hence two questions ...
Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/lEPHQG.jpg
Q2: If so, how would you fertilize it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in
so that the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons
and peppers grown from their own leftovers.

So she asked me to get her a couple of 5-gallon buckets of "soil"
(she called it "dirt" but dirt and soil, I was told by my college
professors, are two different things - but no matter how many times
I tell her the difference - she still calls it "dirt").

I went to the lowest area of my property to find the most non-rocky
soil I could find (yes, "rock" is different than "stone", as
outlined by the same college professor); but even then, thousands of
feet away from the bulldozed areas, I still ended up with 100%
Franciscan sediments currently weathered to 50% stone and 50%
smaller particles. I sifted out with a quarter-inch grid the smaller
particles, but the
result is still a coffee-colored mix of what seems to be relatively
infertile soil.

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow
plants? http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg


Start hauling in loads of horse manure. Check out Garrod Farms.

http://www.garrodfarms.com/


Did you know that horse manure can carry viable weed and grass seeds ? For
that reason I will only use it after it's been "hot" composted . Cow manure
on the other hand is safe to use "straight from the producer" due to the way
their digestive system works .

Horse manure can often contain harmful pesticides used to keep down
flies in the stable. Knew an organic farmer that would not use it.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 5:41:54 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
This is my *best* soil:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg
It's half stones:
http://i.cubeupload.com/czWmKi.jpg

Hence two questions ...
Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/lEPHQG.jpg
Q2: If so, how would you fertilize it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in so that
the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons and peppers
grown from their own leftovers.

So she asked me to get her a couple of 5-gallon buckets of "soil" (she
called it "dirt" but dirt and soil, I was told by my college professors,
are two different things - but no matter how many times I tell her the
difference - she still calls it "dirt").

I went to the lowest area of my property to find the most non-rocky soil I
could find (yes, "rock" is different than "stone", as outlined by the same
college professor); but even then, thousands of feet away from the
bulldozed areas, I still ended up with 100% Franciscan sediments currently
weathered to 50% stone and 50% smaller particles.

I sifted out with a quarter-inch grid the smaller particles, but the result
is still a coffee-colored mix of what seems to be relatively infertile
soil.

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

Forget your own soil. Buy enough of this to fill the planters:

http://www.miraclegro.com/smg/goprod/miracle-gro-moisture-control-potting-soil/prod70262?locale=en_US

Yes, it'll cost you money. But it'll idiot-proof your grandchildren's
gardening experience.

If you cheap out and try to add fertilizer to gravel, failure is guaranteed.
Organic matter is required for plant growth. There's symbiosis among
plants, soil bacteria and other organisms, and dead plant matter in soil.

A user-friendly description of this is available in the novel, "The Martian".

Cindy Hamilton

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:41:51 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?
http://i.cubeupload.com/KlXcvs.jpg

Your local county extension office may test the soil for you and state
what is needed to amend the soil.

Some plants grow better when planted together; tomatoes / bell peppers
and basil. Helps with controlling insects, too.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 09:56:25 -0700, Oren wrote:

Your local county extension office may test the soil for you and state
what is needed to amend the soil.

Some plants grow better when planted together; tomatoes / bell peppers
and basil. Helps with controlling insects, too.

Hi my huckleberry friend,

You understood the quest.
The quest is to learn, so I appreciate the advice that maybe the local
(something) will help with testing the soil.

That's my first quest - which is to *assess* scientifically (as cheaply as
possible, of course) the soil.

My first assessment was to ask you guys for an informal assessment based on
the pictures. DO you think this stuff is sufficient to grow huckleberries?

As for the plants growing together - that's interesting. Very interesting.
We'll limit the plants to whatever the kids or we adults eat, but both
basil and peppers and tomatoes too are in the mix.

In fact, the wife grows basil and peppers all the time (but she uses
potting soil).

The goal here is to figure out if the soil is good to start with.
- I need to figure out its ability to hold moisture - but how?
- I need to figure out its current NPK values - but how?
- I need to figure out its level of organic material - but how?

Then I need to figure out what to add to compensate for deficiencies.

How does the soil in the OP look (from the pictures) compared to yours?

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:53:42 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Forget your own soil.
Buy enough of this to fill the planters:
http://www.miraclegro.com/smg/goprod/miracle-gro-moisture-control-potting-soil/prod70262?locale=en_US

I was remiss in not mentioning the whole point is to teach the kids.
It's best to teach them using their own stuff.
That's why we're using "our" soil.
And that's why we're using "their food waste".

Sure, we could buy seeds and buy potting soil; but that defeats the
scientific purpose.

Yes, it'll cost you money. But it'll idiot-proof your grandchildren's
gardening experience.

It's ok if we fail - but it's not OK if we don't understand WHY we failed.
We want to understand the soil first - which is my main question.

Then, we want to understand how to improve the soil second.
That's my second question.

If you cheap out and try to add fertilizer to gravel, failure is guaranteed.

Ah, this is the second *assessment* of the soil pictures.
The first assessment was that it was "crap" and your assessment is that
it's "gravel".

I certainly would agree that half of it is "gravel"; but I already sifted
out that half, so, now it's all *not gravel*.

Is the not-gravel which is left still *gravel* in your eyes?

Organic matter is required for plant growth. There's symbiosis among
plants, soil bacteria and other organisms, and dead plant matter in soil.

This is a key point!
I don't *see* any organic matter in this soil.
Would I normally be able to *see* organic matter in decent soil?

NOTE: Back east, years ago, I remember the black soil full of bugs and
roots; but *this* soil is not that way at all. Very brown. No roots.
Dunno if that's a clue (but it probably is).

How do I get *organic* matter into soil?
Do they sell organic matter as such?

A user-friendly description of this is available in the novel, "The Martian".
Heh heh ... funny you mention this because the *movie* with Matt Damon is
partially what inspired this experiment.

We want the kids to understand their own soil, their own food waste, and to
understand how to improve their own soil to grow their own food.

It's a learning experiment. Failure is an option, but not learning is not
an option.

So, that's why I asked for an *assessment* of the soil that I pictured.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:59:56 -0400, Frank wrote:

It's the fertilizer and the ability of the media to hold moisture that
is important. After all you can grow plants hydroponically without
soil. Get a good fertilizer from a gardening center. Tomatoes also
like calcium and it pays to add limestone. I use regular cheap bagged
topsoil in my pots.

It's more an experiment of how the local soil works, with a bit of
fertilizer, if needed.

So my main question is how would I *know* if fertilizer is needed?

As for the ability to hold moisture, I think the water remains by capillary
action, right?

Is there a *test* for that?
I guess I could weigh a pot of the soil before and after watering, and then
weight it a day or two later.

But is there a standard test for how soil holds moisture?

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:51:13 -0400, Frank wrote:

Horse manure can often contain harmful pesticides used to keep down
flies in the stable. Knew an organic farmer that would not use it.

Horse manure is too much for two five-gallon buckets of soil, so, I am
sorry for misleading folks.

I'm mostly asking for *technical* details like how I know if the soil is
good or bad in the first place.

I did look up how plants get their nutrients.

Apparently only about 1% of the root actually *touches* nutrients, which
soak into the root along a corky layer that surrounds each root cell. That
corky layer utilizes ATP to *force* the nutrients into the cell since there
is a *higher* concentration inside the cell so simple osmosis won't work.

However, 99% of the nutrients get *to* the roots by osmosis of the
fertilizer. That is, if I put a nodule of fertilizer a few inches away from
a root tip, the root can't get to the fertilizer until the nutrients
*diffuse* out by simple osmosis from the nodule to the root.

So, what seems to happen is that a *water flow* is set up where the leaves
transpire water, which then causes a vacuum in the root which pulls in
water by pressure, where that water flow brings the water close to the root
where that water contains the fertilizer nutrients that diffused by osmosis
into that water.

Once the water is pulled next to the root, then an active (and complex)
process begins to actively pull the nutrients into the cell.

That's as far as I got, so any added value you can provide as to the
technical process of fertilizing a bucket of soil would be helpful as the
goal is for the kids to learn how the whole process of growing food works
(scientifically).

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 06:27:01 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

Add water.

Alternately, go get a bag or two of potting soil.

Funny you mention the water, as I looked up how roots uptake nutrients.

I was debating whether removing the stone chips helped or not.
On the one point, the stones may create cavities for the water.
But on the other hand, the roots would be forced to go around the stones.
Besides, the water remains, I thing, by capillary action, around the soil
nodules.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 05:51:30 -0700, Taxed and Spent wrote:

Start hauling in loads of horse manure. Check out Garrod Farms.

http://www.garrodfarms.com/

If I eventually put in a vineyard, I'm sure I'll go the commercial
fertilizer route (if the neighbors don't mind the stench).

However, in this case, I'm just asking for *technical* advice, such as ...

Q: How do I know if fertilizer is even needed?
Q: How do I know how good (or bad) this soil is?
Q: Is *your* soil half stones like mine is?

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:49:19 -0400, songbird wrote:

you have a substrate, for growing veggies you'll
need some compost (partially decayed organic materials)
and perhaps some clay to hold moisture. if the compost
is not very good you may also want to add some chopped
and dried alfalfa or other nitrogen rich plant based
material. let it sit (water it once in a while to keep
it moist) for a few weeks.

for other gardening/soil questions the rec.garden
groups still function. i'm very happy to go on at
length about such things.

worm composting is a very good way to keep such
gardens topped up with nutrients...

You bring up good scientific points in that I doubt there is much humus
(organic) material in this particular soil.

Bearing in mind the goal is to teach the kids science in the process, these
soils are Franciscan sediments, which are ultra mafic rocks which covered
the floor of the Pacific Ocean which were shoved fifty miles under the edge
of California about 30 million years ago, and then which popped up when the
Farallon Plate was consumed in this area (the Farallon Plate still exists
but only north of Mendocino).

Since it's all Franciscan sediments, it's really all the same "clayish"
sandstone. There's nothing else in these parts. Just that one clayish
sandstone (often termed "chert").

I'm trying to find a chemical composition description of Franciscan chert
but I wonder if you look at the soil in my pictures if it looks "decent" to
you?

I suspect it has far too little humus to be useful.
But I don't know that for a fact.

I just know that back east, the soil is black and filled with roots,
whereas out here, it's a uniform brown with almost no root matter and no
bugs whatsoever in it.

What is your soil like?
Is it similar to mine?

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 05:20:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Or if there is use for enough, for a couple hundred bucks he
can probably get a load of topsoil delivered. If he has a large
lot, it can be left in a spot for use over time. For that or
his existing soil, a general purposed 10-10-10 type fertilizer
should be fine. I'd test the soil PH though, who knows what
it is, and adjust if needed.

I know that I can get potting soil but this is a "nature" experiment, so,
the natural soil is the goal, so that the kids use their own soil and their
own waste food to grow their own food plants.

It's really an experiment and not a commercial venture.


I'm more curious if your soil is as stony as mine.
Is yours half stones?

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:22:36 -0700 (PDT), Roy wrote:

Just go buy some potting soil and mix with that crap
you call soil or just disregard your "soil" and use
the potting soil entirely. Couple of big bags should
suffice for what you are going to do.
====

You're the first to explain that the soil I found was 'crap', as that's the
main goal, which is to scientifically approach this.

Of course I can do away with the soil on the property, but then the kids
wouldn't learn how to analyze what it is that we have, and they wouldn't
learn what they need to add to make it work better.

Consider this like the Martian Biome that was in Gravity (or whatever that
movie was where Matt Damon had to grow potatoes).

We want to approach this as "our soil" and "our food waste" and "our
plants", so, buying potting soil defeats the purpose.

I really just want an analysis of the existing soil, as "you" see it.
So far, you're the only one to analyze it from the pictures, and you called
it "crap".

I suspect it *is* crap - but how do you know that by looking at it?
Was it the percentage of stones?
Since I removed the stones, was it something else that triggered that
assessment?

Please advise.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:26:18 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:

Did you know that horse manure can carry viable weed and grass seeds ? For
that reason I will only use it after it's been "hot" composted . Cow manure
on the other hand is safe to use "straight from the producer" due to the way
their digestive system works .
--

If I do fertilize the soil, I think what I'll do is take an empty bucket
and fill it half way with soil, and then sprinkle a handful or two of the
fertilizer and shake it up.

Since there are only two full buckets, that won't take long.

I don't ever fertilize (don't ask me how my lawn is doing!) so I have zero
experience with fertilizer.

Does it go on top and then you let it soak down?
Or can I mix it up with all the soil in the two five-gallon buckets by
shaking it about like I shake flour and my potato wedges?

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:56:25 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 09:56:25 -0700, Oren wrote:

Your local county extension office may test the soil for you and state
what is needed to amend the soil.

Some plants grow better when planted together; tomatoes / bell peppers
and basil. Helps with controlling insects, too.

Hi my huckleberry friend,

You understood the quest.
The quest is to learn, so I appreciate the advice that maybe the local
(something) will help with testing the soil.

That's my first quest - which is to *assess* scientifically (as cheaply as
possible, of course) the soil.

My first assessment was to ask you guys for an informal assessment based on
the pictures. DO you think this stuff is sufficient to grow huckleberries?

As for the plants growing together - that's interesting. Very interesting.
We'll limit the plants to whatever the kids or we adults eat, but both
basil and peppers and tomatoes too are in the mix.

In fact, the wife grows basil and peppers all the time (but she uses
potting soil).

The goal here is to figure out if the soil is good to start with.
- I need to figure out its ability to hold moisture - but how?
- I need to figure out its current NPK values - but how?
- I need to figure out its level of organic material - but how?


Testing. Loamy soil gives you Oxygen, amend nutrients, etc.

Then I need to figure out what to add to compensate for deficiencies.

How does the soil in the OP look (from the pictures) compared to yours?

Your soil is much darker than mine, here in the desert. Raised beds
are recommend here as the ground is not the best medium to grow
vegetables or herbs.

UCLA ought to have a local co-operative agricultural extension
offices. Testing a soil sample likely would ask for samples from
different areas to get a better idea (balance). Several plastic lunch
bags with a number of tablespoons of soil to test from different
areas.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 1:56:31 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:53:42 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Forget your own soil.
Buy enough of this to fill the planters:
http://www.miraclegro.com/smg/goprod/miracle-gro-moisture-control-potting-soil/prod70262?locale=en_US

I was remiss in not mentioning the whole point is to teach the kids.
It's best to teach them using their own stuff.
That's why we're using "our" soil.
And that's why we're using "their food waste".

Sure, we could buy seeds and buy potting soil; but that defeats the
scientific purpose.

Yes, it'll cost you money. But it'll idiot-proof your grandchildren's
gardening experience.

It's ok if we fail - but it's not OK if we don't understand WHY we failed.
We want to understand the soil first - which is my main question.

Then, we want to understand how to improve the soil second.
That's my second question.

If you cheap out and try to add fertilizer to gravel, failure is guaranteed.

Ah, this is the second *assessment* of the soil pictures.
The first assessment was that it was "crap" and your assessment is that
it's "gravel".

I certainly would agree that half of it is "gravel"; but I already sifted
out that half, so, now it's all *not gravel*.

Is the not-gravel which is left still *gravel* in your eyes?

Well, it's not what I would call a prime growing medium for plants.

Organic matter is required for plant growth. There's symbiosis among
plants, soil bacteria and other organisms, and dead plant matter in soil.

This is a key point!
I don't *see* any organic matter in this soil.
Would I normally be able to *see* organic matter in decent soil?

NOTE: Back east, years ago, I remember the black soil full of bugs and
roots; but *this* soil is not that way at all. Very brown. No roots.
Dunno if that's a clue (but it probably is).

It definitely is.

How do I get *organic* matter into soil?
Do they sell organic matter as such?

I just googled "compost near me" and got some reasonable hits. I
live in the lush environs of southeast Michigan. Our municipalities
collect yard waste (which is illegal to dump in landfills here), compost
it, and sell it back at a reasonable price.

A user-friendly description of this is available in the novel, "The Martian".
Heh heh ... funny you mention this because the *movie* with Matt Damon is
partially what inspired this experiment.

We want the kids to understand their own soil, their own food waste, and to
understand how to improve their own soil to grow their own food.

It's a learning experiment. Failure is an option, but not learning is not
an option.

So, that's why I asked for an *assessment* of the soil that I pictured.

It's hard to tell from a picture. I'd definitely try the county
extension service.

You certainly should be able to see stuff that clearly used to be plant
matter: leaves, twigs, and random partially rotted dross. Evidence
of insects is also good. If worms don't find it congenial, then plants
won't, either.

Amending soil with organic matter involves rounding up a bunch of
composted plant parts and mixing it in. Gardening in containers
is tough (harder than Mark Watney made it sound), which is why
I suggested buying potting mix. Too much water, and plants die.
Too little water, and plants die. The organic matter acts like a
big sponge, and is loaded with soil bacteria.

I've got pretty poor soil; a couple of inches of topsoil over 12
feet of clay (not the caliche of the Southwest, but still pretty
heavy). Every year I plant a few dozen heads of garlic. I've
got two frames that I made from untreated cedar fence pickets,
so they're about 3 ft by 6 ft by 6 inches. I plop them down
in the garden, fill them with topsoil and compost that I bought
in big bags from Home Despot, use a garden fork to mix it with
what was left from last year, and poke in the cloves of garlic.

Sorry, I'm getting a little "stream of consciousness" on you.
It just occurred to me that if there wasn't already anything
growing in your soil, it's very unsuited to your purpose. It'll
take a whale of a lot of amendment to get it to grow heavy
feeders like vegetables.

Best of luck.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:56:34 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

As for the ability to hold moisture, I think the water remains by capillary
action, right?

Is there a *test* for that?
I guess I could weigh a pot of the soil before and after watering, and then
weight it a day or two later.

"Moisture meters are used to measure the percentage of water in a
given "substance." Pics: https://tinyurl.com/hfnmgmo

Take the kids to a garden/lawn center on a field trip :-)

To much water and plants could die by drowning.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:56:56 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

I was debating whether removing the stone chips helped or not.
On the one point, the stones may create cavities for the water.
But on the other hand, the roots would be forced to go around the stones.

....you end up with ugly carrots. Give them clean and loamy soil.

Not so much with radishes :-)

On 9/6/16 4:41 AM, Danny D. wrote:
This is my *best* soil: http://i.cubeupload.com/ixJt7h.jpg It's half
stones: http://i.cubeupload.com/czWmKi.jpg

Hence two questions ... Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/lEPHQG.jpg Q2: If so, how would you fertilize
it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in
so that the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons
and peppers grown from their own leftovers.

Some cut.

Here is a list of land grant universities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_land-grant_universities

They were set up to help farmers but one near you might have other
information.
This is to the University of Nebraska:
http://extensionpubs.unl.edu
It does have some stuff on gardening.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 12:39:27 -0700, Oren wrote:

...you end up with ugly carrots. Give them clean and loamy soil.

Not so much with radishes :-)

Do you think it's a good idea to "loam" the soil by mixing in some
uniformly sized sand grains?

I was wondering if I could grow a horse radish for myself from the
condiments I have in my refrigerator!

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:40:02 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Some cut.

Here is a list of land grant universities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_land-grant_universities

They were set up to help farmers but one near you might have other
information.
This is to the University of Nebraska:
http://extensionpubs.unl.edu
It does have some stuff on gardening.

Thanks for teh pointers.
I found this "LIST OF LABORATORIES FOR TISSUE/SOIL/WATER - AGRICULTURAL
ANALYSIS".
http://cecentralsierra.ucanr.org/files/115331.pdf

The only one that is close is Eurofins STA Laboratories ¡V
7240 Holsclaw Rd
Gilroy, CA 95020
408-846-9964
F 408-846-9954
http://www.eurofinsus.com/
Grapevine disease testing & diagnostics, seed
(health, analysis, & purity), & resistance screening

I called them, and they said they only analyze grapevines.
So they gave me the Demoines main number 515-265-1461 to ask for more
detail.

They also said UC Davis seems to do a lot of grape-soil testing, even
though the wikipedia you gave me only lists UC Berkeley.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ies#California

So, it seems, out here, they are mostly focused on vineyards.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 12:17:55 -0700, Oren wrote:

Testing. Loamy soil gives you Oxygen, amend nutrients, etc.

Do you think this soil is "loamy"?
To me, loamy means loose and airy.
It seems clumpy to me.

Your soil is much darker than mine, here in the desert.

Interesting. Darker? This is coffee colored. The classic rock out here is
red chert. It's really mud from the ocean. It's only about 30 million years
old, which is relatively young stuff (as geology goes).

Raised beds
are recommend here as the ground is not the best medium to grow
vegetables or herbs.

Hmmm... what does the extra foot in the air get you?
Why raise the beds?


UCLA ought to have a local co-operative agricultural extension
offices. Testing a soil sample likely would ask for samples from
different areas to get a better idea (balance). Several plastic lunch
bags with a number of tablespoons of soil to test from different
areas.

I'm up in the Santa Cruz area, so maybe the Santa Cruz UC will have that.
I'll check.

http://eps.ucsc.edu/research/facilit...chem-rock.html

They seem to have good contact information:
http://eps.ucsc.edu/about/contact-visitors.html

Heck, they even have a "Household Archeology Lab"!
http://anthro.ucsc.edu/labs/lab-operations/index.html

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:22:37 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Is the not-gravel which is left still *gravel* in your eyes?

Well, it's not what I would call a prime growing medium for plants.

Did you see my lawn in the background?
I would tend to agree with you!



How do I get *organic* matter into soil?
Do they sell organic matter as such?

I just googled "compost near me" and got some reasonable hits. I
live in the lush environs of southeast Michigan. Our municipalities
collect yard waste (which is illegal to dump in landfills here), compost
it, and sell it back at a reasonable price.

You guys probably get rain, right?
We don't get rain.
Not a drop.
At least from about the end of April to the middle of November.
Not a single drop.

It's hard to tell from a picture. I'd definitely try the county
extension service.

I'll try but I'm in a county that doesn't have farms all that much.
At least I've never seen a farm.
Some leftover orchards though.
And lots of vinyards.

You certainly should be able to see stuff that clearly used to be plant
matter: leaves, twigs, and random partially rotted dross. Evidence
of insects is also good. If worms don't find it congenial, then plants
won't, either.

No bugs whatsoever. Not a single worm in four buckets of raw soil.
No plants either. A few scattered roots though.

Amending soil with organic matter involves rounding up a bunch of
composted plant parts and mixing it in. Gardening in containers
is tough (harder than Mark Watney made it sound), which is why
I suggested buying potting mix. Too much water, and plants die.
Too little water, and plants die. The organic matter acts like a
big sponge, and is loaded with soil bacteria.

I looked up what plants need. They need a complex mix of stuff, only some
of which is NPK. Sigh. It's not so easy. Maybe I'll just grind up some
leftover food in a blender and mix *that* into the two 5-gallon buckets.

I've got pretty poor soil; a couple of inches of topsoil over 12
feet of clay (not the caliche of the Southwest, but still pretty
heavy). Every year I plant a few dozen heads of garlic.

Hey, Can the kids plant these?

http://i.cubeupload.com/bzuWn5.jpg

Will that old garlic grow?

I buy the big bag from Costco - and always have this much wasted.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 12:31:34 -0700, Oren wrote:

"Moisture meters are used to measure the percentage of water in a
given "substance." Pics: https://tinyurl.com/hfnmgmo

Take the kids to a garden/lawn center on a field trip :-)

To much water and plants could die by drowning.

Out here, in California, except in the winter, the moisture has to be
pretty low.

I looked at the first in your list:
https://tinyurl.com/hfnmgmo

It was the DT-129 and it was just for wood (not soil).
http://www.ecutool.com/DT-129-Moisture-Meter_7248.html

But it's too expensive to be practical ($166).
It does seem to simply be a resistance meter though.

I'll bet most of the moisture meters are resistance meters.

Looking at the second one in your list, it's half that price:
http://asungadget.com/shop/wheat-cor...oisture-meter/

But it's a "Wheat corn paddy rice moisture meter" for testing grains.
Still, it seems to be a resistance/conductance meter.

It gives a range of Moisture measurement range: 2%~30%

On 9/6/2016 12:56 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:51:13 -0400, Frank wrote:

Horse manure can often contain harmful pesticides used to keep down
flies in the stable. Knew an organic farmer that would not use it.

Horse manure is too much for two five-gallon buckets of soil, so, I am
sorry for misleading folks.

I'm mostly asking for *technical* details like how I know if the soil is
good or bad in the first place.


That's easy. Have a sample of the soil tested. Most universities will
do it for a small fee. Contact your county's agricultural extension
office and ask about getting a soil sample tested. They usually have
the instructions and submission form available, plus the address to
mail or drop off the sample. They may have a listing of additional
places that you can send your sample to for testing, besides the
university.

In general, a soil test report will report on the amount of organic
matter present, indicate the type of soil, test for pH, phosphorus and
potassium levels. Testing for nitrogen levels usually isn't done
because nitrogen generally is not persistent in the soil. They'll
recommend how much nitrogen to apply based on what you tell them
you're intending to grow in it.

Or you could bypass all that and just start gardening. You could make
it a science project for the kids - one bed or container with the soil
as-is; another bed or container with the soil augmented with a small
amount of fertilizer. You could further tweak the experiment by having
a third bed, where you apply half the fertilizer at planting time, and
the other half about 6-8 weeks later. Have the kids keep records as to
how well the plants grow in each situation, and which produces the
most of each particular vegetable.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:19:36 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

So they gave me the Demoines main number 515-265-1461 to ask for more
detail.

I called the Iowa number but they only do nutrition analysis.
So they suggested the universities.

I'll try UC Santa Cruz next ...

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

They seem to have good contact information:
http://eps.ucsc.edu/about/contact-visitors.html

Their phone number is odd, as it either gives a busy signal, or it says
it's not in service...
831-459-4089

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 15:23:55 -0500, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

That's easy. Have a sample of the soil tested. Most universities will
do it for a small fee. Contact your county's agricultural extension
office and ask about getting a soil sample tested. They usually have
the instructions and submission form available, plus the address to
mail or drop off the sample. They may have a listing of additional
places that you can send your sample to for testing, besides the
university.

In general, a soil test report will report on the amount of organic
matter present, indicate the type of soil, test for pH, phosphorus and
potassium levels. Testing for nitrogen levels usually isn't done
because nitrogen generally is not persistent in the soil. They'll
recommend how much nitrogen to apply based on what you tell them
you're intending to grow in it.

Or you could bypass all that and just start gardening. You could make
it a science project for the kids - one bed or container with the soil
as-is; another bed or container with the soil augmented with a small
amount of fertilizer. You could further tweak the experiment by having
a third bed, where you apply half the fertilizer at planting time, and
the other half about 6-8 weeks later. Have the kids keep records as to
how well the plants grow in each situation, and which produces the
most of each particular vegetable.

This is along the lines that I was thinking also.
Having the soil tested is good because it would be a concrete proof of
whatever it is, while doing the experiment will back that up.

The closest school is UC Santa Cruz, but their soil lab number is odd in
that it either displays busy or not in service: 831-459-4089

I'll look around for another number...
http://eps.ucsc.edu/about/contact-visitors.html

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:19:25 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 12:39:27 -0700, Oren wrote:

...you end up with ugly carrots. Give them clean and loamy soil.

Not so much with radishes :-)

Do you think it's a good idea to "loam" the soil by mixing in some
uniformly sized sand grains?

Yes. Sand adds drainage when making a loam soil.

I was wondering if I could grow a horse radish for myself from the
condiments I have in my refrigerator!

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:28:13 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:19:36 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

So they gave me the Demoines main number 515-265-1461 to ask for more
detail.

I called the Iowa number but they only do nutrition analysis.
So they suggested the universities.

I'll try UC Santa Cruz next ...

Why don't you ask some neighbors in the area what they grow? Anyone
have a garden? Any local garden centers that sell veg plants and
such? That would be more useful than us telling you what
we have and do in NJ. Let's put it this way, given the soil you
showed us, if I was going to buy a farm to grow vegetables, I wouldn't
pick your place. Any farms there? What do they grow besides rocks
and agnst?

Assuming there isn't something terrible about that soil that you;ve
sifted, eg it's full of salt or something, then if you want to use
it, get some organic matter like peat moss, well rested manure, or
similar and mix some of that in with it. That plus
some fertilizer should be fine for growing typical plants. Get the PH
tested, they even have cheap test kits at HD or online, correct if
needed.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:34:59 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Why don't you ask some neighbors in the area what they grow? Anyone
have a garden?

I know of a fifty acre plot with a garden out back, but he brought in soil.

Any local garden centers that sell veg plants and
such?

Sure. Home Depot. OSH. Lowes. That's about all "I" know, but there must be
more.

That would be more useful than us telling you what
we have and do in NJ. Let's put it this way, given the soil you
showed us, if I was going to buy a farm to grow vegetables, I wouldn't
pick your place. Any farms there? What do they grow besides rocks
and agnst?

Out here? It's all vineyards.
No farms.


Assuming there isn't something terrible about that soil that you;ve
sifted, eg it's full of salt or something, then if you want to use
it, get some organic matter like peat moss, well rested manure, or
similar and mix some of that in with it.

I wonder how to *test* the organic matter content of the existing soil?

That plus
some fertilizer should be fine for growing typical plants. Get the PH
tested, they even have cheap test kits at HD or online, correct if
needed.

I'll look for a ph kit. I have a pool ph kit (drops).
I wonder if that will work somehow.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 15:12:53 -0700, Oren wrote:

Do you think it's a good idea to "loam" the soil by mixing in some
uniformly sized sand grains?

Yes. Sand adds drainage when making a loam soil.

Hmmm... I guess "cemented" soil is bad, I guess.
So, from that 'sandpoint', the sandy soil may be better for drainage.

But, um, what is the problem with water.
Plants need water to live.

And, they don't "drown" since they don't have lungs so they don't "breathe"
either.

I guess if the roots are very wet for a long time, they may get diluted of
their ATP and other chemicals necessary for life, by osmosis into the
water.

Is that what the danger is of too-wet soil?
And how do you know it's too wet?

So many questions, so much I don't know.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:09:22 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:34:59 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Why don't you ask some neighbors in the area what they grow? Anyone
have a garden?

I know of a fifty acre plot with a garden out back, but he brought in soil.

Any local garden centers that sell veg plants and
such?

Sure. Home Depot. OSH. Lowes. That's about all "I" know, but there must be
more.

That would be more useful than us telling you what
we have and do in NJ. Let's put it this way, given the soil you
showed us, if I was going to buy a farm to grow vegetables, I wouldn't
pick your place. Any farms there? What do they grow besides rocks
and agnst?

Out here? It's all vineyards.
No farms.


Assuming there isn't something terrible about that soil that you;ve
sifted, eg it's full of salt or something, then if you want to use
it, get some organic matter like peat moss, well rested manure, or
similar and mix some of that in with it.

I wonder how to *test* the organic matter content of the existing soil?

That plus
some fertilizer should be fine for growing typical plants. Get the PH
tested, they even have cheap test kits at HD or online, correct if
needed.

I'll look for a ph kit. I have a pool ph kit (drops).
I wonder if that will work somehow.

You can use the pool kit. Just put a tablespoon or two of soil into about
1/4 cup of water. Mix it up, then let it settle for a few hours or
overnight. Carefully collect some of the clearest water at the top
to fill your pool test tube. It's a little harder to read the color
because the water probably will be cloudy, not clear, but you can
get a good idea of what the PH is. You want around 6.5 to 7 for most
things. You can look up what specific plants like.