On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:31:29 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

It's been a while since I installed any GFCIs and I don't remember
the date on my last code book but you mean a newer type GFCI needs
no ground wire? o_O

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:49:25 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:31:29 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

It's been a while since I installed any GFCIs and I don't remember
the date on my last code book but you mean a newer type GFCI needs
no ground wire? o_O

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.

Having a ground screw doesn't mean anything as far as the operation of the
GFCI. It's there as an equipment ground to be used when a ground wire is
either present or required.

As said:

"GFCIs also mitigate the lack of a ground wire. It is the only legal
way to do a replacement of an ungrounded receptacle with a 5-15."

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 13:18:55 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:49:25 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:31:29 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

It's been a while since I installed any GFCIs and I don't remember
the date on my last code book but you mean a newer type GFCI needs
no ground wire? o_O

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.

Having a ground screw doesn't mean anything as far as the operation of the
GFCI. It's there as an equipment ground to be used when a ground wire is
either present or required.

As said:

"GFCIs also mitigate the lack of a ground wire. It is the only legal
way to do a replacement of an ungrounded receptacle with a 5-15."

My turn in the barrel this week.

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:49:25 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:31:29 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

It's been a while since I installed any GFCIs and I don't remember
the date on my last code book but you mean a newer type GFCI needs
no ground wire? o_O

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.

Having a ground screw doesn't mean anything as far as the operation of the
GFCI. It's there as an equipment ground to be used when a ground wire is
either present or required.

As said:

"GFCIs also mitigate the lack of a ground wire. It is the only legal
way to do a replacement of an ungrounded receptacle with a 5-15."

+1

A ground is not needed for the GFCI to function, in fact one of it's uses
is to provide GFCI protection for replacing those old two pin receptacles.
The receptacle/s still won't have a ground, but they have protection against
shock that's better than a ground would provide.

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 13:29:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:49:25 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:31:29 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

It's been a while since I installed any GFCIs and I don't remember
the date on my last code book but you mean a newer type GFCI needs
no ground wire? o_O

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.

Having a ground screw doesn't mean anything as far as the operation of the
GFCI. It's there as an equipment ground to be used when a ground wire is
either present or required.

As said:

"GFCIs also mitigate the lack of a ground wire. It is the only legal
way to do a replacement of an ungrounded receptacle with a 5-15."

+1

A ground is not needed for the GFCI to function, in fact one of it's uses
is to provide GFCI protection for replacing those old two pin receptacles.
The receptacle/s still won't have a ground, but they have protection against
shock that's better than a ground would provide.

I wasn't wrong when I said: "Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has
a green screw for the ground
wire."

Use it or not. Back in the barrel I go.

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 2:49:25 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:31:29 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

It's been a while since I installed any GFCIs and I don't remember
the date on my last code book but you mean a newer type GFCI needs
no ground wire? o_O

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.

The outlet does have a grounding screw which is connected to the brass fingers that grip ground pin on a 3 wire grounding plug. The actual operation of the GFCI doesn't depend on being connected to a ground wire. You become the ground if there is a problem. The GFCI basically detects that there current going someplace else (through you) that should be going to the neutral so it's detecting an imbalance in "The Force". In a previous post I quoted information which I'll post again. The GFCI will work without a grounding conductor but you must label the outlet as ungrounded. ^_^

================================================== =============================
Receptacle replacement.

What happens when you're working at a previously unprotected location that now requires GFCI protection? It's no longer acceptable to replace an old, unprotected receptacle with a new, unprotected receptacle. Per 406.3(D)(2), you now must install a GFCI-protected device.

What if you come across a non-grounding type receptacle or an old 2-wire NM cable without a ground? These receptacles can be replaced with one of the following:

Another non-grounding type receptacle.

A GFCI-receptacle, if marked €œNo Equipment Ground.€�

A grounding type receptacle, if GFCI protected and marked €œGFCI Protected€� and €œNo Equipment Ground.€�

The equipment-grounding conductor plays no part in the operation of a GFCI, so it will provide ground-fault protection even on a 2-wire circuit without an equipment-grounding conductor.
================================================== =============================
[8~{} Uncle Earthed Monster

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 04:16:48 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 2:07:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 20:52:01 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:23:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 21:10:54 -0400, Bill
wrote:

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2016-09-03 6:12 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 18:14:01 +0000, Helen Keech
m wrote:

Are there any 20 amp GFCI protected FUSES available. I need to
replace one in
a junction fuse box.
Put a GFCI outlet in the first box on the string, feed the down stream
from the "load" side. If this confuses you, call an electrician.

Are you suggesting he merely "plug-in" that string? Is that likely to
satisfy code requirements?

No he isn't, you should call an electrician.


Then the way I understand it, the "downstream" part won't be GFCI-protected.
If properly installed, all "downstream" components are protected.
Upstream are not.
Properly installed means connected to the panel with the "line"
screws, and the downstream connected to the "load" screws.

Well, we should make sure we are clear in our wording for the non-initiated.

A GFCI with downstream fixtures (receptacles, etc.) connected to line screws would still
be considered "properly installed" as long as downstream protection is not desired. There
is nothing "mandatory" about using the load side for downstream fixtures.


NitPicker. In order to provide downstream protection, they need to be
"properly installed" - which means installed as I described.

So, just to be clear, are you saying that a GFCI with the downstream receptacles
connected to the line side is *not* properly installed?

It is not "properly ninstalled" to provide downstream protection if
the downstream is not connected to the load side.

The OP was confused about whether a CGCI outlet protected the outletsm
downstream, and I said it did if it was properly installed - OBVIOUSLY
meaning properly installed to do the required job of protecting the
downstream circuits.

In addition, it doesn't have to be connected to the *panel*, at least not directly.

Agaiun, nitpicker. It IS connected to the panel - one way or another.

I already said that that was a nit, in fact it's still there at the bottom of this post.

In any case, thank you for affirmation.

The "downstream" side is the side NOT connected to the panel in any
way if the GFCI device is removed.

Unless to downstream receptacles were wired nutted to the source wires and then pigtailed
to the line side of the GFCI. I think that that would be a "proper installation" but I'd not be
upset if I found out that it was not.


Upstream = panel side = LIVE
Downstrream = load = DEAD
*Source wires connected to the line screws" would cover all cases better than
"connected to the panel". That's a bit of a nit, but it covers it all just a little more
clearly.
To those of us who understand these things, yes. To those who don't
have a clue, perhaps not.

On Mon, 05 Sep 2016 12:49:19 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:31:29 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

It's been a while since I installed any GFCIs and I don't remember
the date on my last code book but you mean a newer type GFCI needs
no ground wire? o_O

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.
And read the instructions that come with that same unit -


Can I use a GFCI in a 2 wire (ungrounded) circuit?
Yes. Section 406.3(D)(3) of the 2008 National Electric Code permits a
non-grounding type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding type
receptacle without a grounding connection. However, the grounding
receptacle must be GFCI-protected. The diagram below shows a typical
non-grounding (2-prong) receptacle replaced with a GFCI. The GFCI must
be marked, "No Equipment Ground." The GFCI can feed through to a
grounding receptacle, which must be marked "GFCI Protected. No
Equipment Ground." For increased electrical safety, Leviton strongly
recommends installing a GFCI in every non-grounding circuit. A ground
wire provides protection by offering a parallel path back to ground
for any fault current. Without a ground wire, fault current will try
and take other paths to ground and a GFCI will trip and cut power
under these hazardous conditions. Ground faults are more likely to
occur in non-grounding circuits and a GFCI will help protect family
members from this potentially hazardous condition

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:06:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 04:16:48 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 2:07:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 20:52:01 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:23:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 21:10:54 -0400, Bill
wrote:

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2016-09-03 6:12 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 18:14:01 +0000, Helen Keech
m wrote:

Are there any 20 amp GFCI protected FUSES available. I need to
replace one in
a junction fuse box.
Put a GFCI outlet in the first box on the string, feed the down stream
from the "load" side. If this confuses you, call an electrician.

Are you suggesting he merely "plug-in" that string? Is that likely to
satisfy code requirements?

No he isn't, you should call an electrician.


Then the way I understand it, the "downstream" part won't be GFCI-protected.
If properly installed, all "downstream" components are protected.
Upstream are not.
Properly installed means connected to the panel with the "line"
screws, and the downstream connected to the "load" screws.

Well, we should make sure we are clear in our wording for the non-initiated.

A GFCI with downstream fixtures (receptacles, etc.) connected to line screws would still
be considered "properly installed" as long as downstream protection is not desired. There
is nothing "mandatory" about using the load side for downstream fixtures.


NitPicker. In order to provide downstream protection, they need to be
"properly installed" - which means installed as I described.

So, just to be clear, are you saying that a GFCI with the downstream receptacles
connected to the line side is *not* properly installed?

It is not "properly ninstalled" to provide downstream protection if
the downstream is not connected to the load side.

The OP was confused about whether a CGCI outlet protected the outletsm
downstream, and I said it did if it was properly installed - OBVIOUSLY
meaning properly installed to do the required job of protecting the
downstream circuits.

In addition, it doesn't have to be connected to the *panel*, at least not directly.

Agaiun, nitpicker. It IS connected to the panel - one way or another.

I already said that that was a nit, in fact it's still there at the bottom of this post.

In any case, thank you for affirmation.

The "downstream" side is the side NOT connected to the panel in any
way if the GFCI device is removed.

Unless to downstream receptacles were wired nutted to the source wires and then pigtailed
to the line side of the GFCI. I think that that would be a "proper installation" but I'd not be
upset if I found out that it was not.


Upstream = panel side = LIVE
Downstrream = load = DEAD
*Source wires connected to the line screws" would cover all cases better than
"connected to the panel". That's a bit of a nit, but it covers it all just a little more
clearly.
To those of us who understand these things, yes. To those who don't
have a clue, perhaps not.

The difference between you and I in regards to both of these issues is
that I see your explanations being more fitting for someone in the know,
while you (I think) think that they are geared more for the novice.

Allow me to explain just you know where I'm coming from.

When I hear "properly installed GFCI" I immediately think "properly installed
for what purpose"? Properly installed to provide downstream protection or
properly installed to protect only itself even though there are downstream
fixtures? When discussing this with someone who has no idea how a GFCI works
and/or how it can be used, I feel that we would be doing them a disservice
if we give the impression that using a GFCI to provide downstream protection
is the only "proper" way to install one. That is why I nitpicked your use of
the words "properly installed." It wasn't a slam on you, it was a teaching
moment for the novices.

The same (IMO) holds for the use of the words "connected to the panel". Yes,
those of us familiar with electrical wiring and specifically GFCI's know
that it all eventually ends up back at the panel, but once again I feel that
we need to be perfectly clear for those that have less experience. If they
don't know how a GFCI works, then they may take the words "connected to the
panel with the line screws" literally. In other words, if they don't know
how a GFCI works, they may think that it needs to be first device in a branch
circuit since the words used were "connected to the panel".

Again, all I was doing was clarifying both issues, even it was picking a
nit. What may be a nit to us could save a novice both confusion and
extra work.

Oren
Mon, 05 Sep 2016
19:49:19 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:31:29 -0000 (UTC), Diesel
wrote:

It's been a while since I installed any GFCIs and I don't
remember the date on my last code book but you mean a newer type
GFCI needs no ground wire? o_O

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching
the voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it
trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the
ground wire. Butterbean.

Yes, it has a place to connect ground, so that it can provide a
ground to anything plugged into it as well as attached on the load
side of it (as long as you ground them too). It doesn't use ground to
do it's job and try to prevent you from getting a potentially nasty
shock, though. It's monitoring the hot and neutral wires coming into
it.

If it sees any difference in current between the two, it'll trip.
Faster than a breaker normally can. And under conditions where the
breaker might not trip. IE: you're the source to ground, but, you
aren't causing enough of a drain to overload the breaker running the
circuit and you aren't causing a short circuit condition, either. So,
if you can't get free, you're getting cooked.

GFCI won't allow that to happen. It sees the current going back to
neutral isn't matching what's coming in on the hot line. A leak has
been detected. Cut power, as in yesterday. Saved your ass. You
probably didn't even get a tingle, it responds that fast.

Sadly, the GFCI is a little on the sensitive side and can result in
unwanted tripping when certain devices try to power up plugged into
one. It's not due to a surge on startup of the device.. It's because
the device is leaking a little more current than the GFCI is okay
with. This leak may still be harmless to you, but, the GFCI isn't
okay with it.

If this happens, and the device works fine on other properly wired
outlets, you can try plugging a surge (protector) surpressor into the
gfci and your device (like a treadmill) into the surge surpressor.
This may be enough to stop it. If that doesn't work, an isolation
transformer will do the trick.

Also! I've noticed that some surge surpressors will also trip a GFCI
receptacle. I suspect it's because a small amount of current is
leaking due to worn/cheap MOVs. If yours is, either replace it or try
to find a GFCI outlet that you can still make use of that doesn't
trip when you try to use it. Tolerance varies, slightly.



--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 16:46:32 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:06:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 04:16:48 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 2:07:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 20:52:01 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:23:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 21:10:54 -0400, Bill
wrote:

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2016-09-03 6:12 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 18:14:01 +0000, Helen Keech
m wrote:

Are there any 20 amp GFCI protected FUSES available. I need to
replace one in
a junction fuse box.
Put a GFCI outlet in the first box on the string, feed the down stream
from the "load" side. If this confuses you, call an electrician.

Are you suggesting he merely "plug-in" that string? Is that likely to
satisfy code requirements?

No he isn't, you should call an electrician.


Then the way I understand it, the "downstream" part won't be GFCI-protected.
If properly installed, all "downstream" components are protected.
Upstream are not.
Properly installed means connected to the panel with the "line"
screws, and the downstream connected to the "load" screws.

Well, we should make sure we are clear in our wording for the non-initiated.

A GFCI with downstream fixtures (receptacles, etc.) connected to line screws would still
be considered "properly installed" as long as downstream protection is not desired. There
is nothing "mandatory" about using the load side for downstream fixtures.


NitPicker. In order to provide downstream protection, they need to be
"properly installed" - which means installed as I described.

So, just to be clear, are you saying that a GFCI with the downstream receptacles
connected to the line side is *not* properly installed?

It is not "properly ninstalled" to provide downstream protection if
the downstream is not connected to the load side.

The OP was confused about whether a CGCI outlet protected the outletsm
downstream, and I said it did if it was properly installed - OBVIOUSLY
meaning properly installed to do the required job of protecting the
downstream circuits.

In addition, it doesn't have to be connected to the *panel*, at least not directly.

Agaiun, nitpicker. It IS connected to the panel - one way or another.

I already said that that was a nit, in fact it's still there at the bottom of this post.

In any case, thank you for affirmation.

The "downstream" side is the side NOT connected to the panel in any
way if the GFCI device is removed.

Unless to downstream receptacles were wired nutted to the source wires and then pigtailed
to the line side of the GFCI. I think that that would be a "proper installation" but I'd not be
upset if I found out that it was not.


Upstream = panel side = LIVE
Downstrream = load = DEAD
*Source wires connected to the line screws" would cover all cases better than
"connected to the panel". That's a bit of a nit, but it covers it all just a little more
clearly.
To those of us who understand these things, yes. To those who don't
have a clue, perhaps not.

The difference between you and I in regards to both of these issues is
that I see your explanations being more fitting for someone in the know,
while you (I think) think that they are geared more for the novice.

Allow me to explain just you know where I'm coming from.

When I hear "properly installed GFCI" I immediately think "properly installed
for what purpose"? Properly installed to provide downstream protection or
properly installed to protect only itself even though there are downstream
fixtures? When discussing this with someone who has no idea how a GFCI works
and/or how it can be used, I feel that we would be doing them a disservice
if we give the impression that using a GFCI to provide downstream protection
is the only "proper" way to install one. That is why I nitpicked your use of
the words "properly installed." It wasn't a slam on you, it was a teaching
moment for the novices.

If installing a GFCI outlet instead of a GFI breaker it will be for 1
of 3 reasons. Number 1 - lower cost to provide complete circuit
protection - On my QO panel installation a GFCI outlet is about half
the cost of a breaker. I used GFCI breakers even though the cost was
higher on the circuits that were not covered by item #3 to follow.

#2 - installing GFCI protection on a fused panel - no other reasonable
way to do it. Again - protecting the entire circuit. (sometimes done
at the panel - running the wires from the panel to a "deadhead" gfci
device - but using a normal GFCI outlet in place of the "deadhead" is
cheaper and they are more readily available)

#3 = protecting one or more outlet on a circuit where you do not want
the rest of the circuit protected. An example is one circuit feeds
powder-room receptacele, refrigerator, and outdoor weatherproof - in
that order. The powder-room and weatherproof require GFCI protection -
while it is preferred NOT to have a GFCI on the fridge.. This is the
only situation where NOT using the feedthrough would be "properly
installed"

The same (IMO) holds for the use of the words "connected to the panel". Yes,
those of us familiar with electrical wiring and specifically GFCI's know
that it all eventually ends up back at the panel, but once again I feel that
we need to be perfectly clear for those that have less experience. If they
don't know how a GFCI works, then they may take the words "connected to the
panel with the line screws" literally. In other words, if they don't know
how a GFCI works, they may think that it needs to be first device in a branch
circuit since the words used were "connected to the panel".

Again, all I was doing was clarifying both issues, even it was picking a
nit. What may be a nit to us could save a novice both confusion and
extra work.

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 9:32:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 16:46:32 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:06:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 04:16:48 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 2:07:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 20:52:01 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:23:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 21:10:54 -0400, Bill
wrote:

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2016-09-03 6:12 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 18:14:01 +0000, Helen Keech
m wrote:

Are there any 20 amp GFCI protected FUSES available. I need to
replace one in
a junction fuse box.
Put a GFCI outlet in the first box on the string, feed the down stream
from the "load" side. If this confuses you, call an electrician.

Are you suggesting he merely "plug-in" that string? Is that likely to
satisfy code requirements?

No he isn't, you should call an electrician.


Then the way I understand it, the "downstream" part won't be GFCI-protected.
If properly installed, all "downstream" components are protected.
Upstream are not.
Properly installed means connected to the panel with the "line"
screws, and the downstream connected to the "load" screws.

Well, we should make sure we are clear in our wording for the non-initiated.

A GFCI with downstream fixtures (receptacles, etc.) connected to line screws would still
be considered "properly installed" as long as downstream protection is not desired. There
is nothing "mandatory" about using the load side for downstream fixtures.


NitPicker. In order to provide downstream protection, they need to be
"properly installed" - which means installed as I described.

So, just to be clear, are you saying that a GFCI with the downstream receptacles
connected to the line side is *not* properly installed?

It is not "properly ninstalled" to provide downstream protection if
the downstream is not connected to the load side.

The OP was confused about whether a CGCI outlet protected the outletsm
downstream, and I said it did if it was properly installed - OBVIOUSLY
meaning properly installed to do the required job of protecting the
downstream circuits.

In addition, it doesn't have to be connected to the *panel*, at least not directly.

Agaiun, nitpicker. It IS connected to the panel - one way or another.

I already said that that was a nit, in fact it's still there at the bottom of this post.

In any case, thank you for affirmation.

The "downstream" side is the side NOT connected to the panel in any
way if the GFCI device is removed.

Unless to downstream receptacles were wired nutted to the source wires and then pigtailed
to the line side of the GFCI. I think that that would be a "proper installation" but I'd not be
upset if I found out that it was not.


Upstream = panel side = LIVE
Downstrream = load = DEAD
*Source wires connected to the line screws" would cover all cases better than
"connected to the panel". That's a bit of a nit, but it covers it all just a little more
clearly.
To those of us who understand these things, yes. To those who don't
have a clue, perhaps not.

The difference between you and I in regards to both of these issues is
that I see your explanations being more fitting for someone in the know,
while you (I think) think that they are geared more for the novice.

Allow me to explain just you know where I'm coming from.

When I hear "properly installed GFCI" I immediately think "properly installed
for what purpose"? Properly installed to provide downstream protection or
properly installed to protect only itself even though there are downstream
fixtures? When discussing this with someone who has no idea how a GFCI works
and/or how it can be used, I feel that we would be doing them a disservice
if we give the impression that using a GFCI to provide downstream protection
is the only "proper" way to install one. That is why I nitpicked your use of
the words "properly installed." It wasn't a slam on you, it was a teaching
moment for the novices.

If installing a GFCI outlet instead of a GFI breaker it will be for 1
of 3 reasons. Number 1 - lower cost to provide complete circuit
protection - On my QO panel installation a GFCI outlet is about half
the cost of a breaker. I used GFCI breakers even though the cost was
higher on the circuits that were not covered by item #3 to follow.

#2 - installing GFCI protection on a fused panel - no other reasonable
way to do it. Again - protecting the entire circuit. (sometimes done
at the panel - running the wires from the panel to a "deadhead" gfci
device - but using a normal GFCI outlet in place of the "deadhead" is
cheaper and they are more readily available)

#3 = protecting one or more outlet on a circuit where you do not want
the rest of the circuit protected. An example is one circuit feeds
powder-room receptacele, refrigerator, and outdoor weatherproof - in
that order. The powder-room and weatherproof require GFCI protection -
while it is preferred NOT to have a GFCI on the fridge.. This is the
only situation where NOT using the feedthrough would be "properly
installed"

So, it sounds like your #3 has you and I in agreement. #3 is all that I was
trying to say from the get-go: "Properly installed" with one or more
downstream receptacles on the *line* side of the GFCI.



The same (IMO) holds for the use of the words "connected to the panel". Yes,
those of us familiar with electrical wiring and specifically GFCI's know
that it all eventually ends up back at the panel, but once again I feel that
we need to be perfectly clear for those that have less experience. If they
don't know how a GFCI works, then they may take the words "connected to the
panel with the line screws" literally. In other words, if they don't know
how a GFCI works, they may think that it needs to be first device in a branch
circuit since the words used were "connected to the panel".

Again, all I was doing was clarifying both issues, even it was picking a
nit. What may be a nit to us could save a novice both confusion and
extra work.

On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 18:50:59 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 9:32:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 16:46:32 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:06:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2016 04:16:48 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 2:07:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 20:52:01 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:23:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 21:10:54 -0400, Bill
wrote:

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2016-09-03 6:12 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 18:14:01 +0000, Helen Keech
m wrote:

Are there any 20 amp GFCI protected FUSES available. I need to
replace one in
a junction fuse box.
Put a GFCI outlet in the first box on the string, feed the down stream
from the "load" side. If this confuses you, call an electrician.

Are you suggesting he merely "plug-in" that string? Is that likely to
satisfy code requirements?

No he isn't, you should call an electrician.


Then the way I understand it, the "downstream" part won't be GFCI-protected.
If properly installed, all "downstream" components are protected.
Upstream are not.
Properly installed means connected to the panel with the "line"
screws, and the downstream connected to the "load" screws.

Well, we should make sure we are clear in our wording for the non-initiated.

A GFCI with downstream fixtures (receptacles, etc.) connected to line screws would still
be considered "properly installed" as long as downstream protection is not desired. There
is nothing "mandatory" about using the load side for downstream fixtures.


NitPicker. In order to provide downstream protection, they need to be
"properly installed" - which means installed as I described.

So, just to be clear, are you saying that a GFCI with the downstream receptacles
connected to the line side is *not* properly installed?

It is not "properly ninstalled" to provide downstream protection if
the downstream is not connected to the load side.

The OP was confused about whether a CGCI outlet protected the outletsm
downstream, and I said it did if it was properly installed - OBVIOUSLY
meaning properly installed to do the required job of protecting the
downstream circuits.

In addition, it doesn't have to be connected to the *panel*, at least not directly.

Agaiun, nitpicker. It IS connected to the panel - one way or another.

I already said that that was a nit, in fact it's still there at the bottom of this post.

In any case, thank you for affirmation.

The "downstream" side is the side NOT connected to the panel in any
way if the GFCI device is removed.

Unless to downstream receptacles were wired nutted to the source wires and then pigtailed
to the line side of the GFCI. I think that that would be a "proper installation" but I'd not be
upset if I found out that it was not.


Upstream = panel side = LIVE
Downstrream = load = DEAD
*Source wires connected to the line screws" would cover all cases better than
"connected to the panel". That's a bit of a nit, but it covers it all just a little more
clearly.
To those of us who understand these things, yes. To those who don't
have a clue, perhaps not.

The difference between you and I in regards to both of these issues is
that I see your explanations being more fitting for someone in the know,
while you (I think) think that they are geared more for the novice.

Allow me to explain just you know where I'm coming from.

When I hear "properly installed GFCI" I immediately think "properly installed
for what purpose"? Properly installed to provide downstream protection or
properly installed to protect only itself even though there are downstream
fixtures? When discussing this with someone who has no idea how a GFCI works
and/or how it can be used, I feel that we would be doing them a disservice
if we give the impression that using a GFCI to provide downstream protection
is the only "proper" way to install one. That is why I nitpicked your use of
the words "properly installed." It wasn't a slam on you, it was a teaching
moment for the novices.

If installing a GFCI outlet instead of a GFI breaker it will be for 1
of 3 reasons. Number 1 - lower cost to provide complete circuit
protection - On my QO panel installation a GFCI outlet is about half
the cost of a breaker. I used GFCI breakers even though the cost was
higher on the circuits that were not covered by item #3 to follow.

#2 - installing GFCI protection on a fused panel - no other reasonable
way to do it. Again - protecting the entire circuit. (sometimes done
at the panel - running the wires from the panel to a "deadhead" gfci
device - but using a normal GFCI outlet in place of the "deadhead" is
cheaper and they are more readily available)

#3 = protecting one or more outlet on a circuit where you do not want
the rest of the circuit protected. An example is one circuit feeds
powder-room receptacele, refrigerator, and outdoor weatherproof - in
that order. The powder-room and weatherproof require GFCI protection -
while it is preferred NOT to have a GFCI on the fridge.. This is the
only situation where NOT using the feedthrough would be "properly
installed"

So, it sounds like your #3 has you and I in agreement. #3 is all that I was
trying to say from the get-go: "Properly installed" with one or more
downstream receptacles on the *line* side of the GFCI.



The same (IMO) holds for the use of the words "connected to the panel". Yes,
those of us familiar with electrical wiring and specifically GFCI's know
that it all eventually ends up back at the panel, but once again I feel that
we need to be perfectly clear for those that have less experience. If they
don't know how a GFCI works, then they may take the words "connected to the
panel with the line screws" literally. In other words, if they don't know
how a GFCI works, they may think that it needs to be first device in a branch
circuit since the words used were "connected to the panel".

Again, all I was doing was clarifying both issues, even it was picking a
nit. What may be a nit to us could save a novice both confusion and
extra work.
Whatever

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 9:51:03 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:


So, it sounds like your #3 has you and I in agreement. #3 is all that I was
trying to say from the get-go: "Properly installed" with one or more
downstream receptacles on the *line* side of the GFCI.



While you're at it, might as well correct Clare that there are more
than his 3 reasons for installing a GFCI outlet instead of a breaker.
I think one big reason he left out is for convenience. Put a GFCI in
the bathroom or kitchen and if it trips you can reset it right there,
without a trip to the breaker.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 12:44:04 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 9:51:03 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:


So, it sounds like your #3 has you and I in agreement. #3 is all that I was
trying to say from the get-go: "Properly installed" with one or more
downstream receptacles on the *line* side of the GFCI.



While you're at it, might as well correct Clare that there are more
than his 3 reasons for installing a GFCI outlet instead of a breaker.
I think one big reason he left out is for convenience. Put a GFCI in
the bathroom or kitchen and if it trips you can reset it right there,
without a trip to the breaker.

It's not worth it. Just when I thought that we had come to an agreement, he responds
with an adolescent "whatever".

Moving on.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 12:44:04 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 9:51:03 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:


So, it sounds like your #3 has you and I in agreement. #3 is all that I was
trying to say from the get-go: "Properly installed" with one or more
downstream receptacles on the *line* side of the GFCI.



While you're at it, might as well correct Clare that there are more
than his 3 reasons for installing a GFCI outlet instead of a breaker.
I think one big reason he left out is for convenience. Put a GFCI in
the bathroom or kitchen and if it trips you can reset it right there,
without a trip to the breaker.

It's not worth it. Just when I thought that we had come to an agreement, he responds
with an adolescent "whatever".

Moving on.

Reason number 4: If the circuit uses aluminum wire, the only alternative
is a breaker since they don't make GFCI outlets which are rated for
aluminum.

On 09/05/2016 02:31 PM, Diesel wrote:

[snip]

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Around 1995 I installed GFCI (no ground wire to or from the GFCI) for my
grandmother to use on holiday lights she put on the ground. It tripped
after a rain when some fire ants built a mound around one of the lights
(unintentional path to ground through wet soil).

--
110 days until the winter celebration (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"There may be Gods, but they care not what men do." [Henry David
Thoreau]

Mark Lloyd laid this down on his screen :
On 09/05/2016 02:31 PM, Diesel wrote:

[snip]

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Around 1995 I installed GFCI (no ground wire to or from the GFCI) for my
grandmother to use on holiday lights she put on the ground. It tripped after
a rain when some fire ants built a mound around one of the lights
(unintentional path to ground through wet soil).

Lemme guess, it was only rated for 30 ants?

On 09/05/2016 02:49 PM, Oren wrote:

[snip]

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.


Needed if you want the outlets to be grounded. Not needed for GFCI
protection.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 13:36:36 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Mark Lloyd laid this down on his screen :
On 09/05/2016 02:31 PM, Diesel wrote:

[snip]

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Around 1995 I installed GFCI (no ground wire to or from the GFCI) for my
grandmother to use on holiday lights she put on the ground. It tripped after
a rain when some fire ants built a mound around one of the lights
(unintentional path to ground through wet soil).

Lemme guess, it was only rated for 30 ants?

Does it take less one (1) ant to trip the GFCI?

Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I don't.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:12:21 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 13:36:36 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Mark Lloyd laid this down on his screen :
On 09/05/2016 02:31 PM, Diesel wrote:

[snip]

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Around 1995 I installed GFCI (no ground wire to or from the GFCI) for my
grandmother to use on holiday lights she put on the ground. It tripped after
a rain when some fire ants built a mound around one of the lights
(unintentional path to ground through wet soil).

Lemme guess, it was only rated for 30 ants?

Does it take less one (1) ant to trip the GFCI?

That reminds of what the Pink Panther used to sing whenever he stepped
on one of those critters.

Dead Ant...Dead Ant...Dead Ant, Dead Ant, Dead Ant.

TimR submitted this idea :
Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I don't.

No, it only needs to compare hot and neutral.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 11:12:13 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 13:36:36 -0400, FromTheRafters

Lemme guess, it was only rated for 30 ants?

Does it take less one (1) ant to trip the GFCI?

Five milliants

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:43:30 -0400, Arnie Goetchius
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 12:44:04 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 9:51:03 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:


So, it sounds like your #3 has you and I in agreement. #3 is all that I was
trying to say from the get-go: "Properly installed" with one or more
downstream receptacles on the *line* side of the GFCI.



While you're at it, might as well correct Clare that there are more
than his 3 reasons for installing a GFCI outlet instead of a breaker.
I think one big reason he left out is for convenience. Put a GFCI in
the bathroom or kitchen and if it trips you can reset it right there,
without a trip to the breaker.

It's not worth it. Just when I thought that we had come to an agreement, he responds
with an adolescent "whatever".

Moving on.

Reason number 4: If the circuit uses aluminum wire, the only alternative
is a breaker since they don't make GFCI outlets which are rated for
aluminum.
Which is a reason NOT to install a GFCI outlet. So no, not a reason
number 4 (not saying there are not other reasons to install a GFCI
breaker.

The point I was making is reasons why a GFCI might be installed
WITHOUT downstream protection

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:36:56 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 09/05/2016 02:49 PM, Oren wrote:

[snip]

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.


Needed if you want the outlets to be grounded. Not needed for GFCI
protection.
And "wanting the outlets to be grounded" should have a reason. A
ground is for safety in case there is a short or leak inside the
device that makes the case "hot" The ground prevents a shock when
yoiu touch the case. A GFCI has the same effdect - tripping in
presence of a short or leak to the cae - preventing a shock.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:46:31 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR submitted this idea :
Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I don't.

No, it only needs to compare hot and neutral.

I don't think it compares hot and neutral. GFCIs do that. AFCIs look for a wave form change.

The Leviton site says they're outlets work in older homes with two wire circuits so that answers my question.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 16:07:59 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:36:56 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 09/05/2016 02:49 PM, Oren wrote:

[snip]

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.


Needed if you want the outlets to be grounded. Not needed for GFCI
protection.
And "wanting the outlets to be grounded" should have a reason. A
ground is for safety in case there is a short or leak inside the
device that makes the case "hot" The ground prevents a shock when
yoiu touch the case. A GFCI has the same effdect - tripping in
presence of a short or leak to the cae - preventing a shock.

You will certainly get a wake up shock on a GFCI but it shouldn't be
fatal ... unless you fall off the ladder.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:16:16 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:46:31 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR submitted this idea :
Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I don't.

No, it only needs to compare hot and neutral.

I don't think it compares hot and neutral. GFCIs do that. AFCIs look for a wave form change.

The Leviton site says they're outlets work in older homes with two wire circuits so that answers my question.

Sorry - I screwed up, meant "their" outlets not "they're" outlets.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The difference between you and I

I feel very "badly" about that grammatical construct.

http://www.google.com/search?q=The+d...een+you+and+I+

--
Bobby G.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:16:16 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:46:31 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR submitted this idea :
Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I don't.

No, it only needs to compare hot and neutral.

I don't think it compares hot and neutral. GFCIs do that. AFCIs look for a wave form change.

The Leviton site says they're outlets work in older homes with two wire circuits so that answers my question.

Sorry - I screwed up, meant "their" outlets not "they're" outlets.

Wow, how PC AHR has become. We now have people correcting their word
usage mistakes. I was about to say spelling mistakes, but it's not
that. Then I was going to say grammar, but I don't think it's that
either, really. So, being afraid of making my own mistake and having
to correct it, I used "word usage mistake". I hope that is correct
and PC.

TimR brought next idea :
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:46:31 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR submitted this idea :
Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I
don't.

No, it only needs to compare hot and neutral.

I don't think it compares hot and neutral. GFCIs do that. AFCIs look for a
wave form change.

The Leviton site says they're outlets work in older homes with two wire
circuits so that answers my question.

They work the same as GFCI with the addition of simulating a ground
fault to the GFCI detector when waveform detectors detect a specific
signal of arcing on the line. It is still a comparator creating the
actual trip signal.

I suppose there could be some that don't work that way, but that is the
way I was given to believe.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 16:18:52 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 16:07:59 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:36:56 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 09/05/2016 02:49 PM, Oren wrote:

[snip]

Umm. Unless you know something about GFCI that I don't, it's never
needed a ground wire. From what I understand, the GFCI is watching the
voltage from hot to neutral and if they become imbalanced, it trips.

Look up the Leviton GFCI Outlet. Is has a green screw for the ground
wire. Butterbean.


Needed if you want the outlets to be grounded. Not needed for GFCI
protection.
And "wanting the outlets to be grounded" should have a reason. A
ground is for safety in case there is a short or leak inside the
device that makes the case "hot" The ground prevents a shock when
yoiu touch the case. A GFCI has the same effdect - tripping in
presence of a short or leak to the cae - preventing a shock.

You will certainly get a wake up shock on a GFCI but it shouldn't be
fatal ... unless you fall off the ladder.
You just get a tickle.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:08:29 -0400, wrote:

And "wanting the outlets to be grounded" should have a reason. A
ground is for safety in case there is a short or leak inside the
device that makes the case "hot" The ground prevents a shock when
yoiu touch the case. A GFCI has the same effdect - tripping in
presence of a short or leak to the cae - preventing a shock.

You will certainly get a wake up shock on a GFCI but it shouldn't be
fatal ... unless you fall off the ladder.
You just get a tickle.

Uh huh.
You understand the listing standard allows up to a second before the
circuit is open and during that time, you are getting full circuit
current, whatever skin contact will pass.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 5:49:12 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR brought next idea :
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:46:31 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR submitted this idea :
Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I
don't.

No, it only needs to compare hot and neutral.

I don't think it compares hot and neutral. GFCIs do that. AFCIs look for a
wave form change.

The Leviton site says they're outlets work in older homes with two wire
circuits so that answers my question.

They work the same as GFCI with the addition of simulating a ground
fault to the GFCI detector when waveform detectors detect a specific
signal of arcing on the line. It is still a comparator creating the
actual trip signal.

I suppose there could be some that don't work that way, but that is the
way I was given to believe.

That's new to me but you could very well be right. I'm happy to learn something new, as long as somebody doesn't correct my grammar. I did google AFCIs and found only vague descriptions of how they work.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:38:31 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The difference between you and I

I feel very "badly" about that grammatical construct.

http://www.google.com/search?q=The+d...een+you+and+I+

--
Bobby G.

Me apologizes.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:45:48 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:08:29 -0400, wrote:

And "wanting the outlets to be grounded" should have a reason. A
ground is for safety in case there is a short or leak inside the
device that makes the case "hot" The ground prevents a shock when
yoiu touch the case. A GFCI has the same effdect - tripping in
presence of a short or leak to the cae - preventing a shock.

You will certainly get a wake up shock on a GFCI but it shouldn't be
fatal ... unless you fall off the ladder.
You just get a tickle.

Uh huh.
You understand the listing standard allows up to a second before the
circuit is open and during that time, you are getting full circuit
current, whatever skin contact will pass.
The UL class "A" spec is no trip at 4ma, must trip at 6ma, with or
without load connected, and it must trip with a 2 ohm grouinded
neutral and within 25ms on a 500 ohm fault. (240ma).

The spec may ALLOW up to a second, but I have never found that spec
(inless you are talking the old IEC 20ma trip device. (which does NOT
protect against shock)

I've had GFCI outlets trip without even feeling the shock - might be
a case of "no sense no feeling" as 1 ma is supposedly the threshold
for feeling a shock

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:26:39 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 5:49:12 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR brought next idea :
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:46:31 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR submitted this idea :
Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I
don't.

No, it only needs to compare hot and neutral.

I don't think it compares hot and neutral. GFCIs do that. AFCIs look for a
wave form change.

The Leviton site says they're outlets work in older homes with two wire
circuits so that answers my question.

They work the same as GFCI with the addition of simulating a ground
fault to the GFCI detector when waveform detectors detect a specific
signal of arcing on the line. It is still a comparator creating the
actual trip signal.

I suppose there could be some that don't work that way, but that is the
way I was given to believe.

That's new to me but you could very well be right. I'm happy to learn something new, as long as somebody doesn't correct my grammar. I did google AFCIs and found only vague descriptions of how they work.
Most AFCI units meet IEC spec as GFCI - 20ma trip None I am aware of
meet the 6ma UL spec - but that may have changed in the last 2 years.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 23:00:41 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:45:48 -0400, wrote:


Uh huh.
You understand the listing standard allows up to a second before the
circuit is open and during that time, you are getting full circuit
current, whatever skin contact will pass.
The UL class "A" spec is no trip at 4ma, must trip at 6ma, with or
without load connected, and it must trip with a 2 ohm grouinded
neutral and within 25ms on a 500 ohm fault. (240ma).

The spec may ALLOW up to a second, but I have never found that spec
(inless you are talking the old IEC 20ma trip device. (which does NOT
protect against shock)

I've had GFCI outlets trip without even feeling the shock - might be
a case of "no sense no feeling" as 1 ma is supposedly the threshold
for feeling a shock

4ma is not supposed to trip it at all but it might cook off
eventually.

This is in U/L standard UL943
(CSA C22.2 No. 144.1 and NMX-J-520-ANCE-2006)

The spec is T=(20/I)
T equals time in seconds
I equals current in milliamps.

Right at the threshold it might take 3 or 4 seconds.
At 100ma it will trip in 200ms.
That is plenty of time to get quite a jolt.
You are still dealing with a fairly complex mechanical linkage,
particularly in the breaker model and that takes time, even if the
fault is detected immediately.
I have worked with lots of high speed relays (1-10 ms) but this ain't
one of them
A QO GFCI
That is a big, slow solenoid and you are moving lots of metal.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/gfci.jpg
I doubt it would actually open in less than 20 ms with a half an amp
and it is hard to get that much current through your body if you not
standing in the rain barefooted.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 23:02:43 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:26:39 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

That's new to me but you could very well be right. I'm happy to learn something new, as long as somebody doesn't correct my grammar. I did google AFCIs and found only vague descriptions of how they work.
Most AFCI units meet IEC spec as GFCI - 20ma trip None I am aware of
meet the 6ma UL spec - but that may have changed in the last 2 years.

30ma (AKA GFP protection) for the AFCI but Cuttler Hammer has made a
5ma unit for a while and I suppose the others will be along shortly if
they are not there now, to meet the 2014 code.