I had a contrator put in a BBQ area and pergola for me. A couple of weeks
ago the lights stopped working. The contractor sent the electrician who did
the original electrical installation to fix it. He pressed the GFCI button
and the lights work again. I asked him what the cause of the GFCI resetting
and he said "they do that". I think it was just a symptom of another
problem, possibly related to the heavy rain that we have had recently (as is
usual in Texas).

Is GFCI designed to spontaneously reset? If not, what is the cause of this?

Thanks!

In article ,
Andrew Chalk wrote:
I had a contrator put in a BBQ area and pergola for me. A couple of weeks
ago the lights stopped working. The contractor sent the electrician who did
the original electrical installation to fix it. He pressed the GFCI button
and the lights work again. I asked him what the cause of the GFCI resetting
and he said "they do that". I think it was just a symptom of another
problem, possibly related to the heavy rain that we have had recently (as is
usual in Texas).

Is GFCI designed to spontaneously reset? If not, what is the cause of this?

No, they reset when you push the reset button. They will trip if water
gets into the wireing.

--
Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

"Andrew Chalk" wrote in message

Is GFCI designed to spontaneously reset? If not, what is the cause of
this?

Thanks!

Sometimes they do that.

Could have even been excessive moisture from the rains.

I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that. If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that jazz ?

Thanks, to you and Edwin. The wire is running through conduit. Shouldn't it
be weatherproof against heavy (but normal, expected) rain?

- Andrew
wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that. If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that jazz ?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"Andrew Chalk"
wrote in message

Is GFCI designed to spontaneously reset? If not,
what is the cause of this?

Thanks!

Sometimes they do that.

Could have even been excessive moisture from the
rains.

Umm, no, they do NOT do that "sometimes" if everything
is installed correctly. Sorry, don't mean to sound
confrontational, but a GFCI tripping is an indication
that something went wrong whether it was water or
whatever that caused it to trip. They don't "just do
that" for no reason. They would be useless in such a
case.

Since this is a new installation, and assuming the user
did nothing to cause the problem, that electrician
needs to check out his work, or possibly an inspector.
It does make sense that it was posibly water getting
in somewhere, but it shouldn't have done so. "They do
that" is an unacceptable resonse from the electrician.
It's quite likely that if you don't call him on it
now, you may well be calling him later, like after he
won't warranty the work any longer due to time.
Even if he says there's nothign he can do, by
submitting a complaint, he's been put on notice so that
when the problem IS aboe to be solved, he'll still be
responsible for doing so.
And actually, if he's worth his salt, there is
something he can do.

HTH,

PopS

wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that. If
you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not
sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what
gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak
somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that jazz
?

No offense, but you say that if it was a licensed
electrician it's OK don't sweat it, but then you ask
how the installation was done? The OP isn't likely to
know whether it was done to "all that jazz" or he
wouldn't have posted here.

IMO, that's an unacceptable situation and the
electrician/contractor needs to be put on notice that
it needs to be taken care of.

"Andrew Chalk" wrote
in message
...
Thanks, to you and Edwin. The wire is running through
conduit. Shouldn't it
be weatherproof against heavy (but normal, expected)
rain?

=== Yes, it should be as you questioned. If
necessary, you could suggest you may have to talk to
the code enforcement office to get them to get out
there and fix the installation. Something isn't right
if the GFCI opens spontaneously like that. Otherwise
you'll have to get used to wondering what/where it's
tripping from, the nuisance trips, and/or paying for
the final fix yourself.
An electrician should know better than to tell you
what he said.

HTH,
PopS



- Andrew
wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that.
If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not
sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what
gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak
somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that
jazz ?

"Andrew Chalk" wrote in message
...
Thanks, to you and Edwin. The wire is running through conduit. Shouldn't
it
be weatherproof against heavy (but normal, expected) rain?

- Andrew
wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that. If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that jazz ?



If it's only happened once, and a thunderstorm was involved, you shouldn't
have to worry. A nearby lightning strike (either cloud-to-cloud or
cloud-to-ground) can sometimes also trip a GFCI, thru an induced current --
an infrequent (emphasize "infrequent") GFCI trip is not necessarily a
problem, especially if you can associate the occurence with a severe
thunderstorm. Regards --

Pop wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that. If
you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not
sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what
gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak
somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that jazz
?


No offense, but you say that if it was a licensed
electrician it's OK don't sweat it, but then you ask
how the installation was done? The OP isn't likely to
know whether it was done to "all that jazz" or he
wouldn't have posted here.

IMO, that's an unacceptable situation and the
electrician/contractor needs to be put on notice that
it needs to be taken care of.


Hi,
Taken care of? OP'er said it rained. GFCI did it's job.
Unless it keeps happening over and over, I wouldn't worry about it.
Tripped once after rain and..... hmmm, What is your idea? GFCI should
never trip? If not, when does it suppose to trip?
Tony

"Pop" wrote in message

Umm, no, they do NOT do that "sometimes" if everything is installed
correctly. Sorry, don't mean to sound confrontational, but a GFCI
tripping is an indication that something went wrong whether it was water
or whatever that caused it to trip. They don't "just do that" for no
reason. They would be useless in such a case.

As I pointed out. Sure, there was a reason, but the conditions may have
changed ten minutes later and the real cause is never found. Excessive
moisture across a plug can do it. That means it is working as it should.

Pop ) said...

Umm, no, they do NOT do that "sometimes" if everything
is installed correctly. Sorry, don't mean to sound
confrontational, but a GFCI tripping is an indication
that something went wrong whether it was water or
whatever that caused it to trip. They don't "just do
that" for no reason. They would be useless in such a
case.

Sorry to burst this bubble, but GFCIs can trip for what *appears*
to be "no reason", and this is why codes never make them manditory
for outlets used for refrigerators.

Transient noise on a power line can cause GFCIs to trip, however
I suspect it would be EXTREMELY rare for such noise to trip a
GFCI that did not have a load on it at the time. Since the original
poster mentioned lights that stopped working, it sounds to me that the
lights are downstream from the GFCIs and could possibly have been a
load on it when a transient (spike) hit it.

Transients are high frequency noise on the power line, and high frequencies
propogate slowly (relative to the speed of light) down a transmission line,
which the power line would serve as. GFCIs work by detecting a difference
in current between the line and neutral. The slow propogation of a spike
can lead to a sensitive GFCI to detect an imbalance long enough for it to
trip.

This would *appear* as a "no reason" trip, yet there is a reason. It
is just not a safety reason.

I once knew someone who had a pool pump on a GFCI and claimed that
every lightning storm his pool was "hit by lightning" because the GFCI
would trip. LOL -- if his pool was hit, his problem would be a lot
greater than just resetting the GFCI! The electrical storm was causing
transients on the power lines in the area that were the cause of the GFCI
tripping.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:EDote.1742996$Xk.57712@pd7tw3no...
Pop wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that.
If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not
sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what
gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak
somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that
jazz ?


No offense, but you say that if it was a licensed
electrician it's OK don't sweat it, but then you ask
how the installation was done? The OP isn't likely
to know whether it was done to "all that jazz" or he
wouldn't have posted here.

IMO, that's an unacceptable situation and the
electrician/contractor needs to be put on notice
that it needs to be taken care of.
Hi,
Taken care of? OP'er said it rained. GFCI did it's
job.
Unless it keeps happening over and over, I wouldn't
worry about it.
Tripped once after rain and..... hmmm, What is your
idea? GFCI should
never trip? If not, when does it suppose to trip?
Tony

No, as another poster mentioned, lightning could
possibly do that. The OP didn't say anything about
that though; only a lot of rain. If it tripped because
of water entry, and since it's a new install, it's
going to trip more often and shouldn't have tripped.
The contractor teling him not to worry was a tipoff
that he should put the contractor on notice so that if
it trips next time it rains, he will have to remedy it.
Otherwise the contractor gets to say it didn't bother
until now? Oh, not my job then.
I am reacting mostly to the glib response about it
being "normal" for them to trip. They should NEVER
trip unless they see an imbalance in the current flows.
If water's getting into a new install, something's not
right.
They should only trip when there is a fault in an
item plugged into that gfci protected line. And water
should not be getting into the wiring.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"Pop" wrote in message

Umm, no, they do NOT do that "sometimes" if
everything is installed correctly. Sorry, don't
mean to sound confrontational, but a GFCI tripping
is an indication that something went wrong whether
it was water or whatever that caused it to trip.
They don't "just do that" for no reason. They would
be useless in such a case.

As I pointed out. Sure, there was a reason, but the
conditions may have changed ten minutes later and the
real cause is never found. Excessive moisture across
a plug can do it. That means it is working as it
should.

No, I don't think that's what it means. I think the
contractor's glib response that they'll "do that" is
out of line and indicative that he knew where the water
got in. His response was out of line for a
professional, if the facts are all as stated.

PopS

Pop wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:EDote.1742996$Xk.57712@pd7tw3no...

Pop wrote:

wrote in message
egroups.com...


I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that.
If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not
sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what
gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak
somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that
jazz ?


No offense, but you say that if it was a licensed
electrician it's OK don't sweat it, but then you ask
how the installation was done? The OP isn't likely
to know whether it was done to "all that jazz" or he
wouldn't have posted here.

IMO, that's an unacceptable situation and the
electrician/contractor needs to be put on notice
that it needs to be taken care of.

Hi,
Taken care of? OP'er said it rained. GFCI did it's
job.
Unless it keeps happening over and over, I wouldn't
worry about it.
Tripped once after rain and..... hmmm, What is your
idea? GFCI should
never trip? If not, when does it suppose to trip?
Tony


No, as another poster mentioned, lightning could
possibly do that. The OP didn't say anything about
that though; only a lot of rain. If it tripped because
of water entry, and since it's a new install, it's
going to trip more often and shouldn't have tripped.
The contractor teling him not to worry was a tipoff
that he should put the contractor on notice so that if
it trips next time it rains, he will have to remedy it.
Otherwise the contractor gets to say it didn't bother
until now? Oh, not my job then.
I am reacting mostly to the glib response about it
being "normal" for them to trip. They should NEVER
trip unless they see an imbalance in the current flows.
If water's getting into a new install, something's not
right.
They should only trip when there is a fault in an
item plugged into that gfci protected line. And water
should not be getting into the wiring.


Hi,
So to prove the installation was not perfect, we have to wait for
another rain, right?
Tony

"Andrew Chalk" wrote...
I had a contrator put in a BBQ area and pergola for me. A couple of weeks
ago the lights stopped working. The contractor sent the electrician who did
the original electrical installation to fix it. He pressed the GFCI button
and the lights work again. I asked him what the cause of the GFCI resetting
and he said "they do that". I think it was just a symptom of another
problem, possibly related to the heavy rain that we have had recently (as is
usual in Texas).

Is GFCI designed to spontaneously reset? If not, what is the cause of this?

It may be defective, or it may be working as designed.

If moisture is getting into it or the circuit, it may be sensing a current leak
and tripping legitimately. In that case, you may have to relocate it or get a
better cover on it to protect it from the elements.

If it trips repeatedly without reasonable cause, it may be defective.

I have a couple on outside receptacle, and it trips once or twice a year. "They
do that" covers that kind of repetitive trip.

"Andrew Chalk" wrote...
Thanks, to you and Edwin. The wire is running through conduit. Shouldn't it
be weatherproof against heavy (but normal, expected) rain?

You should be more concerned about the receptacle area itself, not necessarily
the wiring running to it.

I think this all depends on your definition of "they do that." Yes,
they can trip because of some reason which is never really known for
sure, like a transient, but that should be relatively rare. I have had
GFCI on outside outlets that I can't recall ever tripping. It
certainly should not trip just from a regular rainstorm. I'd keep an
eye on it and see if it repeats.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:v4qte.1743736$Xk.567991@pd7tw3no...
Pop wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:EDote.1742996$Xk.57712@pd7tw3no...

Pop wrote:

wrote in message
legroups.com...


I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that.
If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not
sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's
what gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak
somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that
jazz ?


No offense, but you say that if it was a licensed
electrician it's OK don't sweat it, but then you
ask how the installation was done? The OP isn't
likely to know whether it was done to "all that
jazz" or he wouldn't have posted here.

IMO, that's an unacceptable situation and the
electrician/contractor needs to be put on notice
that it needs to be taken care of.

Hi,
Taken care of? OP'er said it rained. GFCI did it's
job.
Unless it keeps happening over and over, I wouldn't
worry about it.
Tripped once after rain and..... hmmm, What is your
idea? GFCI should
never trip? If not, when does it suppose to trip?
Tony


No, as another poster mentioned, lightning could
possibly do that. The OP didn't say anything about
that though; only a lot of rain. If it tripped
because of water entry, and since it's a new
install, it's going to trip more often and
shouldn't have tripped. The contractor teling him
not to worry was a tipoff that he should put the
contractor on notice so that if it trips next time
it rains, he will have to remedy it. Otherwise the
contractor gets to say it didn't bother until now?
Oh, not my job then.
I am reacting mostly to the glib response about
it being "normal" for them to trip. They should
NEVER trip unless they see an imbalance in the
current flows. If water's getting into a new
install, something's not right.
They should only trip when there is a fault in an
item plugged into that gfci protected line. And
water should not be getting into the wiring.
Hi,
So to prove the installation was not perfect, we have
to wait for another rain, right?
Tony

Well, from what has been said about the contractor's
response, maybe. It's only my opinion, but I'd have
been pretty exasperated by anyone that told me they
"just do that" without knowing why he said that.
Personally I would see if I couldn't get the guy to
come back out and take care of the problem now. Since
he's already been there after the storm, it should be
easy to find the place where water got into the system.
He probably already knows, but didn't want to fix it.
That's why I say to put him on notice that you want it
fixed, so he'll know you're goign to expect himn to
take care of it next time it rains or gets sprayed by
the hose, or whatever (which, BTW, could be, not IS,
dangerous).
Another poster mentioned the plug getting wet and
shorting, but if the receptacle is the proper kind,
with proper gaskets and flip-open covers, the plug pins
shouldn't be able to get wet from rain. A garden hose
yes, but not rain. Outdoor receptacles are a lot
different than indoor receptacles. IMO, it's more
likely the water got into a box or even the receptacle
box, or a joiner or other conduit fixture that was
either the wrong type or poorly assembled or had a
manufacturing defect.
Everything above assumes, of course, that you dont'
have any jerry-rigged plugs on equipment plugged into
that outlet; I don't think you mentioned whether
anythng was plugged into it when it opened, but I
assumed not, now I think of it. If something plugged
into it got wet, that equipment also could open the
gfci, of course.
At any rate, GFCI's do not "just do that". They
trip on a very specific current condition so that they
will turn the power off before it reaches lethal levels
where one could come in contact with it.
IN a perfect world, that guy would get right back
out there and look for the problem, and/or offer to
come instantly the next time it pops on you. I doubt
very much your contract specifies a GFCI that "just
does that", since you can't buy such a thing.
If he's resisting you, then a chat with your local
code enforcement office might be interesting and if
they're in a good mood, they might ask you a few
questions that could be enlightening too. Don't be
afraid to call; that's part of why they're there.
Was the work inspected? If you can, talk to the
inspector - he's actually seen the work and might have
a comment or two on it.

Anyone have an NEC read on this? I dont' have access
to the book right now.

HTH,

PopS

According to Calvin Henry-Cotnam :
I once knew someone who had a pool pump on a GFCI and claimed that
every lightning storm his pool was "hit by lightning" because the GFCI
would trip. LOL -- if his pool was hit, his problem would be a lot
greater than just resetting the GFCI! The electrical storm was causing
transients on the power lines in the area that were the cause of the GFCI
tripping.

I suspect, rather than line transients, it was actually _ground_
transients inducing current in the line.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

No problem Calvin, I'm always open to anyone with a
good point or better observation.
Inline:
"Calvin Henry-Cotnam"
wrote in message
...
Pop ) said...

Umm, no, they do NOT do that "sometimes" if
everything
is installed correctly. Sorry, don't mean to sound
confrontational, but a GFCI tripping is an indication
that something went wrong whether it was water or
whatever that caused it to trip. They don't "just do
that" for no reason. They would be useless in such a
case.

Sorry to burst this bubble, but GFCIs can trip for
what *appears*
to be "no reason", and this is why codes never make
them manditory
for outlets used for refrigerators.
=== A GFCI, one which is built to NA standards as
requied by law, monitors the difference in current
between the hot and the neutral wires. Whenever that
current varies too much, I think it's about ten
milliamps, the thing trips and turns off the power.
IMO, he was given a glib, and wrong, response by that
person.

Transient noise on a power line can cause GFCIs to
trip, however
I suspect it would be EXTREMELY rare for such noise
to trip a
GFCI that did not have a load on it at the time.
=== It would be fairly rare in any instance, but
moreso as you indicated. By the time a spike makes it
through the transformer on the pole, and all the
inductance in that xfmr, there isn't much of it left
for the house wiring, which in turn has a substantial
sinking ability due to the things plugged into it.
I'd be willing to bet money that no transient was at
work in this picture; it just doesn't fit the anecdotal
evidence.

Since the original
poster mentioned lights that stopped working, it
sounds to me that the
lights are downstream from the GFCIs and could
possibly have been a
load on it when a transient (spike) hit it.
=== Now, that's a distinct possibility. In fact, I
mentioned it in a post a few minutes back that I'd
neglected to consider that. If that's the case, then
there was an obvious reason for it tripping that anyone
worth their salt could have asked about, instead of
just that "they do that".

Transients are high frequency noise on the power
line, and high frequencies
propogate slowly (relative to the speed of light)
down a transmission line,
which the power line would serve as. GFCIs work by
detecting a difference
in current between the line and neutral. The slow
propogation of a spike
can lead to a sensitive GFCI to detect an imbalance
long enough for it to
trip.
Umm, no, not really. High frequencies first of all
wouldn't make it thru the network into the home wiring
and if it was powerful enough to make it thru via
arccing or whatever in the xfmr, it's not "noise".
There is a lot of "noise" on any of those power lines;
it's the design of the lines that protects it from
getting into the houses. Else, anyone with a modem
could pick off the billing information, all kinds of
data that are also flowing up and down those wires.
Any signals on those wires cancel themselves and
anything left is further reduced by the turns ration in
the transformers. There is even a reason for the
spacing between power lines, in fact, that comes into
play. You can only decode data AT th epower lines
termination points. By design, any outside noise is
also going to be horizontally applied, and will again
be self-damped. It's called longitudinal balance. I
used to work on that kind of equipment. It's
interesting stuff, actually, since few people know it's
there. Electrical and gas consumption billing are two
typical applications and anything from lightning to the
sun can induce noise into the lines, but due to design,
it's reduced to the point where it has no afffect on
things.


This would *appear* as a "no reason" trip, yet there
is a reason. It
is just not a safety reason.
=== You cannot say that. The gfci tripped, and the
reason isn't known. You can not know whether there
would be a dangerous fault or not if the GFCI hadn't
been there.

I once knew someone who had a pool pump on a GFCI and
claimed that
every lightning storm his pool was "hit by lightning"
because the GFCI
would trip. LOL -- if his pool was hit, his problem
would be a lot
greater than just resetting the GFCI! The electrical
storm was causing
transients on the power lines in the area that were
the cause of the GFCI
tripping.
=== Like I said, that's possible, but very unlikely to
be the problem, given the information available so far
in this post. Since we're now going into empirical,
anecdotal eveidence, I have a GFCI on my pool pump,
too, because I also run the pool lights from it. Then
that receptacle goes off to another receptacle/switch,
which is used for the yard lighting. It has NEVER
tripped before, during, or after a storm. The only
time it's ever tripped was when I pressed the test
switch, or stuck a resistor between the conduit and the
receptacle.
There are some valid reasons why some of the larger
horsepower motors will cause them to trip, but it's not
the noise generated. It's the pase shift caused by the
inductance in the motors, especially when they're
capacitor starts instead of clutch-started. Either
way, the currents in the live/neutral vary sufficiently
for the GFCI to detect the current difference, and thus
it trips. I recall the last one I bought, a portable,
had a reaction time in the micro-second range; that's
pretty fast when you consider you're working with a
period of what, about 16 mS on 60 Hz?
I don't think any of that's relevant to the OP's
situation.

However, I DO think your comment about something
plugged in at the time of the rain or, whenever the
thing opened, is important, since it wasn't
specifically noted one way or the other by the OP.
That installer sounds either incompetent or sort of,
uhh, dishonest and doesn't care since he came up with
"they do that".

Cheers,

PopS


--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be
explained by incompetence."

- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and
".invalid"

I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that. If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that jazz ?


If it does it ONCE, and you don't see an obvious reason for it,
chalk it up as an aberration. if it KEEPS tripping, then you
have a problem.

Sorry, I had three thoughts in my head when I posted - I meant to
somehow convey the idea that if the GFCI was tripping like once in a
blue moon (once a year, technically), and the electrical work was done
by a licensed electrician, then personally I would not worry about it.
Problem is the OP would not know the answer so the whole line of
reasoning is basically unhelpful.

If the sucker's tripping once a month for example then that is not
good, the contractor needs to look at it.

Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Pop ) said...

Umm, no, they do NOT do that "sometimes" if everything
is installed correctly. Sorry, don't mean to sound
confrontational, but a GFCI tripping is an indication
that something went wrong whether it was water or
whatever that caused it to trip. They don't "just do
that" for no reason. They would be useless in such a
case.


Sorry to burst this bubble, but GFCIs can trip for what *appears*
to be "no reason", and this is why codes never make them manditory
for outlets used for refrigerators.


The 2005 NEC requires GFCIs on 15 & 20 amp outlets in "commercial
kitchens". This appears to include refrigerators. (Electricians in a
code refresher class thought it was a dumb idea.)

Bud--

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...

I agree with the guy that they do seem to do that.
If you had a
licensed electrician put the thing in I would not
sweat it. If though
the feed somehow could have gotten wet, that's what
gfci is intended to
react to, which may indicate some sort of leak
somewhere ? Did they
run the outdoor wire thru a conduit and all that jazz
?


If it does it ONCE, and you don't see an obvious
reason for it,
chalk it up as an aberration. if it KEEPS tripping,
then you
have a problem.


NO, you had the problem the first time, too, but chose
to ignore the possibility that a problem was there.
Not a wise decision in most cases, with best case being
it's a negligible problem.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Sorry, I had three thoughts in my head when I
posted - I meant to
somehow convey the idea that if the GFCI was tripping
like once in a
blue moon (once a year, technically), and the
electrical work was done
by a licensed electrician, then personally I would
not worry about it.
Problem is the OP would not know the answer so the
whole line of
reasoning is basically unhelpful.

If the sucker's tripping once a month for example
then that is not
good, the contractor needs to look at it.

Hey, we've all been there! I always opine that if I
just had a photographic memory ... g

PopS

I bought some indoor GFIC outlets from Home Depot and some of them were
way too touchy. They'd trip when plugging in a turned-off appliance.
I'd replace it with another of the same brand and it would work.
OSH carried the same model, so not trying to flame HD. And I didn't
have any ground in those outlets, maybe that makes them more sensitive.

According to :
I bought some indoor GFIC outlets from Home Depot and some of them were
way too touchy. They'd trip when plugging in a turned-off appliance.

I'd be suspicious of the appliance.

I'd replace it with another of the same brand and it would work.

Okay, intermittent (or close to marginal) medium resistance hot-case short.

Really.

What's the brand? Perhaps it's a true fly-by-night with poor quality
control, but with HD I doubt it.

OSH carried the same model, so not trying to flame HD. And I didn't
have any ground in those outlets, maybe that makes them more sensitive.

Won't make any difference.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I agree they don't "just do that"

unless the GFIC itself was defective.

it was a BS answer in any case, from someone who sounds like they are
underqualified/ignorant or just lazy.


doesn't surprise me, as often times contractors/tradesmen are terribly
underqualified, like HVAC men, for example, an awful bunch of incompetent
rednecks, for the most part.

can't tell you how many I have heard tell a homeowner that an A/C system or
heat pump just needs a shot of freon every year or two, but also tell them
there is no leak.

well find the damn leak, idiot, the freon just doesn't disappear into thin
air! It ain't like a car that just "uses some oil"

want to stump an HVAC man, ask him how the same freon that is room
temperature in that tank over there can make you cold in the summer, yet
warm in the winter

not saying that there is no HVAC tech that can answer this, just saying that
most can't, and that is pathetic

as far as I am concerned, HVAC techs should be REQUIRED to pass a college
level thermodynamics course with an "A" before being granted a license.

I bet you over half the HVAC techs cannot, starting with the compressor,
tell you each component the freon enters, in order, and complete the loop of
naming components back to the compressor again, which is what they should
have learned on their first day of school!

Chris Lewis ) said...

According to Calvin Henry-Cotnam :
I once knew someone who had a pool pump on a GFCI and claimed that
every lightning storm his pool was "hit by lightning" because the GFCI
would trip. LOL -- if his pool was hit, his problem would be a lot
greater than just resetting the GFCI! The electrical storm was causing
transients on the power lines in the area that were the cause of the GFCI
tripping.

I suspect, rather than line transients, it was actually _ground_
transients inducing current in the line.

Could be, but the point was that it was not a ground _fault_ that was
really happening.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

Pop ) said...

By the time a spike makes it
through the transformer on the pole, and all the
inductance in that xfmr, there isn't much of it left
for the house wiring, which in turn has a substantial
sinking ability due to the things plugged into it.

So why is so much money spent on surge suppressors?
Without getting into the whole-house versus power bar argument,
there is electrical noise that can effect electronic equipment
in varying degrees.

GFCIs are among the effected, often enough that you should not
use them on outlets powering refrigerators.

I'd be willing to bet money that no transient was at
work in this picture; it just doesn't fit the anecdotal
evidence.

It does, moreso since the original poster mentioned that there were
other loads downstream from the GFCI (the lights).

It would be a pretty rare occurance for a GFCI to trip off due to
transients flowing strictly due to the inductive and capacitive load
of the power line. I wouldn't say impossible, but think it is fair game
to say I have a better chance of winning a lottery.

But with a load of a few lights, there is a somewhat greater possibility
that noise might be "seen" by the GFCI as an imbalance.

If that's the case, then
there was an obvious reason for it tripping that anyone
worth their salt could have asked about, instead of
just that "they do that".

True. Unfortunately, there seems to be a common attitude of many
professionals to give such a terse answer to people outside their
profession.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

Pop wrote:
?


If it does it ONCE, and you don't see an obvious
reason for it,
chalk it up as an aberration. if it KEEPS tripping,
then you
have a problem.



NO, you had the problem the first time, too, but chose
to ignore the possibility that a problem was there.
Not a wise decision in most cases, with best case being
it's a negligible problem.



GFCIs are subject to nuisance trips. As a practical mater, the
electrician is likely to find nothing, and depending on what is
downstream from the GFCI they may spend a lot of time finding nothing.
Seems to me it is entirely reasonable to see if the trip reoccurs.

Bud--

Chris Lewis wrote:
What's the brand? Perhaps it's a true fly-by-night with poor quality
control, but with HD I doubt it.
Leviton smart lock GFIC
Two outlets gave me trouble in two rooms with different appliances. I
replaced them with new ones of the same brand and they worked great.

I thought GFICs tended to have quality problems which is why you should
test them periodically?

Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Pop ) said...

By the time a spike makes it
through the transformer on the pole, and all the
inductance in that xfmr, there isn't much of it left
for the house wiring, which in turn has a substantial
sinking ability due to the things plugged into it.


So why is so much money spent on surge suppressors?
Without getting into the whole-house versus power bar argument,
there is electrical noise that can effect electronic equipment
in varying degrees.


Good marketing. I dont have any 'intentional' surge surpressors in my
house. Not to mention that 99% of surge supressors can absorb a max
surge the size of a static shock from a rug...

Devices themselves are more robust these days and small surges wont do
much. Especially to electronic equipment.

There is also the question of where the spike originated. Inductive
loads like refrigerators and vacuum cleaners, A/C units (especially when
faulty) can throw spikes on the line which originate inside the
house/transformer. i have still not seen any trippage of my GFCI. But
in my old house the voltage drop would induce my battery backup to kick
in briefly.


GFCIs are among the effected, often enough that you should not
use them on outlets powering refrigerators.


I'd be willing to bet money that no transient was at
work in this picture; it just doesn't fit the anecdotal
evidence.


It does, moreso since the original poster mentioned that there were
other loads downstream from the GFCI (the lights).

It would be a pretty rare occurance for a GFCI to trip off due to
transients flowing strictly due to the inductive and capacitive load
of the power line. I wouldn't say impossible, but think it is fair game
to say I have a better chance of winning a lottery.


Isint this contrary to your statement about refrigerators which are an
inductive load?

But with a load of a few lights, there is a somewhat greater possibility
that noise might be "seen" by the GFCI as an imbalance.


If that's the case, then
there was an obvious reason for it tripping that anyone
worth their salt could have asked about, instead of
just that "they do that".


True. Unfortunately, there seems to be a common attitude of many
professionals to give such a terse answer to people outside their
profession.



--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

Bud wrote:

Pop wrote:

?



If it does it ONCE, and you don't see an obvious reason for it,
chalk it up as an aberration. if it KEEPS tripping, then you
have a problem.



NO, you had the problem the first time, too, but chose to ignore the
possibility that a problem was there. Not a wise decision in most
cases, with best case being it's a negligible problem.



GFCIs are subject to nuisance trips. As a practical mater, the
electrician is likely to find nothing, and depending on what is
downstream from the GFCI they may spend a lot of time finding nothing.
Seems to me it is entirely reasonable to see if the trip reoccurs.

Bud--

I would agree, but since this was just put in, by that time it'll
cost to pay someone to do it. Since this was apparently just
done, the installer at least needed to be put on notice so he
could fix it later if that's how it turns out.

Besides, apparently it turned out the guy had light/s plugged into
it at the time, so there probably nothing wrong at the gfci anyway
- certainly though, the installer should have told the OP about
that, not just said "they do that".

---

According to :
Chris Lewis wrote:
What's the brand? Perhaps it's a true fly-by-night with poor quality
control, but with HD I doubt it.

Leviton smart lock GFIC

Two outlets gave me trouble in two rooms with different appliances. I
replaced them with new ones of the same brand and they worked great.

I thought GFICs tended to have quality problems which is why you should
test them periodically?

No, it's not Q problems per-se. GFI's have mechanical contactors, and
electronics. The contactors can burn out or stick, and the electronics
can (very occasionally) fry. If it sticks, you have a false sense of
security...

You may have had two marginal units, but from Leviton, I'm surprised.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

CL dnoyeB Gilbert ) said...

It would be a pretty rare occurance for a GFCI to trip off due to
transients flowing strictly due to the inductive and capacitive load
of the power line. I wouldn't say impossible, but think it is fair game
to say I have a better chance of winning a lottery.


Isint this contrary to your statement about refrigerators which are an
inductive load?

No, the "inductive and capacitive load of the power line" that I was
speaking of is strictly that: of the power line.

When you apply AC power to a pair of wires with no load at the other end,
there will be a small current flowing in that wire, mostly due to the
capacitive effect of the wire. The inductive effects generally don't come
into play until you try to disconnect those wires and a tiny bit of arcing
may be seen.

This effect can be noticed, albeit very tiny, when a branch circuit with
nothing on it is disconnected from the power source. I have seen this effect
quite dramatically when a substation was being disconnected from its
source -- after the load is shut off, then the disconnects are opened
at the top of the substation, the power company then had a guy in a cherry
picker disconnect the wires at the pole. With about 50' of wires connected
to nothing at the far end, there is quite a visible and audible spark when
those wires are disconnected from the supply (I don't recall the voltage,
but it was at least 4600 and not likely over 16,000).

Getting back to my point, with only the effects of a non-loaded cable
on a GFCI, I do not believe that it is likely that any transients can
trip the GFCI. With a load on the cable downstream from the GFCI (lights
or a refrigerator for instance), the odds improve significanty. Not that
you will see it occuring on a weekly basis, but going from "practically
never" to, say, 1 in 10000, is a significant increase.


--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

"CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert" wrote in message
...
Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Pop ) said...

By the time a spike makes it through the transformer on the pole, and all
the inductance in that xfmr, there isn't much of it left for the house
wiring, which in turn has a substantial sinking ability due to the things
plugged into it.


So why is so much money spent on surge suppressors?
Without getting into the whole-house versus power bar argument,
there is electrical noise that can effect electronic equipment
in varying degrees.


Good marketing. I dont have any 'intentional' surge surpressors in my
house. Not to mention that 99% of surge supressors can absorb a max surge
the size of a static shock from a rug...

Maybe where you live -- but in Florida, power surges resulting from
electrical storms are a major source of TV repairs and a specific profit
center for our family TV repair business. I have everything in the house
protected by surge suppressors and even at that a nearby lightning strike
was strong enough to smoke the surge protector on my stereo power amplifier
and the amplifier itself, although the plasma TV (on a different supressor)
escaped unharmed. The manufacturer of the surge supressor pai me for a new
power amplifier.
Devices themselves are more robust these days and small surges wont do
much. Especially to electronic equipment.

These aren't small surges, and electronics are, IMHO, getting MORE sensitive
and more expensive, not less.

Neither of my two comments are related to GFCIs, but to the earlier poster's
overall comments on power surges.


There is also the question of where the spike originated. Inductive loads
like refrigerators and vacuum cleaners, A/C units (especially when faulty)
can throw spikes on the line which originate inside the house/transformer.
i have still not seen any trippage of my GFCI. But in my old house the
voltage drop would induce my battery backup to kick in briefly.


GFCIs are among the effected, often enough that you should not
use them on outlets powering refrigerators.


I'd be willing to bet money that no transient was at work in this
picture; it just doesn't fit the anecdotal evidence.


It does, moreso since the original poster mentioned that there were
other loads downstream from the GFCI (the lights).

It would be a pretty rare occurance for a GFCI to trip off due to
transients flowing strictly due to the inductive and capacitive load
of the power line. I wouldn't say impossible, but think it is fair game
to say I have a better chance of winning a lottery.


Isint this contrary to your statement about refrigerators which are an
inductive load?

But with a load of a few lights, there is a somewhat greater possibility
that noise might be "seen" by the GFCI as an imbalance.


If that's the case, then there was an obvious reason for it tripping that
anyone worth their salt could have asked about, instead of just that
"they do that".


True. Unfortunately, there seems to be a common attitude of many
professionals to give such a terse answer to people outside their
profession.



--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

snipped==========================
So why is so much money spent on surge suppressors?
Without getting into the whole-house versus power bar argument,
there is electrical noise that can effect electronic equipment
in varying degrees.


Good marketing. I dont have any 'intentional' surge surpressors in my
house. Not to mention that 99% of surge supressors can absorb a max
surge
the size of a static shock from a rug...

Maybe where you live -- but in Florida, power surges resulting from
electrical storms are a major source of TV repairs and a specific profit
center for our family TV repair business. I have everything in the house
protected by surge suppressors and even at that a nearby lightning strike
was strong enough to smoke the surge protector on my stereo power
amplifier
and the amplifier itself, although the plasma TV (on a different
supressor)
escaped unharmed. The manufacturer of the surge supressor pai me for a
new
power amplifier.
Devices themselves are more robust these days and small surges wont do
much. Especially to electronic equipment.

These aren't small surges, and electronics are, IMHO, getting MORE
sensitive
and more expensive, not less.

Neither of my two comments are related to GFCIs, but to the earlier
poster's
overall comments on power surges.

IEEE says if you want surge protection you must protect 2 of the three
zones. Since the utility won't allow you to put one on their lines that will
protect you. Your stuck with one at the service and one at the point of use.
Doing your cable and telco is also a good idea.

I have seen lightning strikes that were 1/4 mile away fry every electronic
ballast in a building.

The CEBMA curve is what the manufactures use to decribe tolerance to voltage
spikes.
No matter what you install nothing is bullet proof.
Since most surge arrestors use MOV's to do the dirty work. I change them
every other monsoon season. Cheaper than a new plasma tv and dealing with
the manufactures for me.



snipped------------------------------------------------------