On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:44:57 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:16:16 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:46:31 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR submitted this idea :
Does an AFCI need a ground to work? I think I should know that but I don't.

No, it only needs to compare hot and neutral.

I don't think it compares hot and neutral. GFCIs do that. AFCIs look for a wave form change.

The Leviton site says they're outlets work in older homes with two wire circuits so that answers my question.

Sorry - I screwed up, meant "their" outlets not "they're" outlets.

Wow, how PC AHR has become. We now have people correcting their word
usage mistakes. I was about to say spelling mistakes, but it's not
that. Then I was going to say grammar, but I don't think it's that
either, really. So, being afraid of making my own mistake and having
to correct it, I used "word usage mistake". I hope that is correct
and PC.

When I was 6 years old, I decided that all grownups were full of crap, some 6 decades later my opinion hasn't really changed. Maybe a little. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Language Monster

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 9:37:12 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:38:31 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The difference between you and I

I feel very "badly" about that grammatical construct.

http://www.google.com/search?q=The+d...een+you+and+I+
--
Bobby G.

Me apologizes.


There is an English language/usage newsgroup that used to be quite active. I haven't looked at it lately but I don't see why it wouldn't still be active. I don't remember the exact name of the group but it was full of English teachers and aficionados. :-Þ

[8~{} Uncle English Monster

Uncle Monster submitted this idea :
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 9:37:12 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:38:31 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The difference between you and I

I feel very "badly" about that grammatical construct.

http://www.google.com/search?q=The+d...een+you+and+I+
--
Bobby G.

Me apologizes.


There is an English language/usage newsgroup that used to be quite active. I
haven't looked at it lately but I don't see why it wouldn't still be active.
I don't remember the exact name of the group but it was full of English
teachers and aficionados. :-Þ

[8~{} Uncle English Monster

alt.english.usage
alt.usage.english

The second gets more traffic IIRC.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 23:24:25 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 23:00:41 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:45:48 -0400, wrote:


Uh huh.
You understand the listing standard allows up to a second before the
circuit is open and during that time, you are getting full circuit
current, whatever skin contact will pass.
The UL class "A" spec is no trip at 4ma, must trip at 6ma, with or
without load connected, and it must trip with a 2 ohm grouinded
neutral and within 25ms on a 500 ohm fault. (240ma).

The spec may ALLOW up to a second, but I have never found that spec
(inless you are talking the old IEC 20ma trip device. (which does NOT
protect against shock)

I've had GFCI outlets trip without even feeling the shock - might be
a case of "no sense no feeling" as 1 ma is supposedly the threshold
for feeling a shock

4ma is not supposed to trip it at all but it might cook off
eventually.

This is in U/L standard UL943
(CSA C22.2 No. 144.1 and NMX-J-520-ANCE-2006)

The spec is T=(20/I)
T equals time in seconds
I equals current in milliamps.

Right at the threshold it might take 3 or 4 seconds.
At 100ma it will trip in 200ms.
That is plenty of time to get quite a jolt.
You are still dealing with a fairly complex mechanical linkage,
particularly in the breaker model and that takes time, even if the
fault is detected immediately.
I have worked with lots of high speed relays (1-10 ms) but this ain't
one of them
A QO GFCI
That is a big, slow solenoid and you are moving lots of metal.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/gfci.jpg
I doubt it would actually open in less than 20 ms with a half an amp
and it is hard to get that much current through your body if you not
standing in the rain barefooted.
In other words the damned things are next to useless as a "safety
device" The ones I have had trip were not the breakers, but the
Leviton? outlets - and an inline 2 wire polarized plug type unit (I
think it was the same as one I have here that is made in Korea -
Wellong P8S E130151 molded into the plug

On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 1:58:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:

In other words the damned things are next to useless as a "safety
device"

If you have some actual data that supports that conclusion, ie accident,
death stats, I'm sure we'd all be eager to see them. I'm betting you don't.
For example, there are many ways a GFCI could prevent a fatality,
without current ever entering a person's body. A pool circuit trips
for example, a dangerous condition that could have killed someone is
found and fixed before someone gets shocked.

On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 4:54:36 AM UTC-5, FromTheRafters wrote:
Uncle Monster submitted this idea :
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 9:37:12 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:38:31 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The difference between you and I

I feel very "badly" about that grammatical construct.

http://www.google.com/search?q=The+d...een+you+and+I+
--
Bobby G.

Me apologizes.


There is an English language/usage newsgroup that used to be quite active. I
haven't looked at it lately but I don't see why it wouldn't still be active.
I don't remember the exact name of the group but it was full of English
teachers and aficionados. :-Þ

[8~{} Uncle English Monster

alt.english.usage
alt.usage.english

The second gets more traffic IIRC.

Dang! I'll bet they even argue what to call the group. ＼（〇_�）�

[8~{} Uncle Contrary Monster

On Wed, 07 Sep 2016 13:58:15 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 23:24:25 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 23:00:41 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:45:48 -0400, wrote:


Uh huh.
You understand the listing standard allows up to a second before the
circuit is open and during that time, you are getting full circuit
current, whatever skin contact will pass.
The UL class "A" spec is no trip at 4ma, must trip at 6ma, with or
without load connected, and it must trip with a 2 ohm grouinded
neutral and within 25ms on a 500 ohm fault. (240ma).

The spec may ALLOW up to a second, but I have never found that spec
(inless you are talking the old IEC 20ma trip device. (which does NOT
protect against shock)

I've had GFCI outlets trip without even feeling the shock - might be
a case of "no sense no feeling" as 1 ma is supposedly the threshold
for feeling a shock

4ma is not supposed to trip it at all but it might cook off
eventually.

This is in U/L standard UL943
(CSA C22.2 No. 144.1 and NMX-J-520-ANCE-2006)

The spec is T=(20/I)
T equals time in seconds
I equals current in milliamps.

Right at the threshold it might take 3 or 4 seconds.
At 100ma it will trip in 200ms.
That is plenty of time to get quite a jolt.
You are still dealing with a fairly complex mechanical linkage,
particularly in the breaker model and that takes time, even if the
fault is detected immediately.
I have worked with lots of high speed relays (1-10 ms) but this ain't
one of them
A QO GFCI
That is a big, slow solenoid and you are moving lots of metal.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/gfci.jpg
I doubt it would actually open in less than 20 ms with a half an amp
and it is hard to get that much current through your body if you not
standing in the rain barefooted.
In other words the damned things are next to useless as a "safety
device" The ones I have had trip were not the breakers, but the
Leviton? outlets - and an inline 2 wire polarized plug type unit (I
think it was the same as one I have here that is made in Korea -
Wellong P8S E130151 molded into the plug.

They will shut down the circuit before you are seriously hurt but you
will still get a wake up call. Bear in mind the higher the current the
faster they trip, down to the time it takes to physically trip the
device.