sms wrote:
On 9/29/2015 3:36 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

snip

We had one in our church. Father Pietlock from N.H. Was a good
priest. He was ordained in Canada. When amnesty came down he returned
home. He knew I spent 3 years in 'Nam but we were chummy. I always
deep in my mind dodgers are sort of cowards.

Those draft-dodgers were smart enough not to get themselves killed in an
undeclared, hopeless, war that was being promoted solely for the
enrichment of defense companies. And of course eventually, like China,
Vietnam turned capitalistic. What a sad waste of 50,000 American lives
and many more on the other side.

Still Uncle Sam did not learn the lesson after 'Nam.
Eisenhower warned about military complex. We're told
U.S. was spending million $ and more every day during
the war. Lost lives aside. Once I was based in ARVN 2nd corp.
(ARVN's most well trained) Hq. Next was a 76th EVAC hospital,
and MASH. I used to watch 'copers landing with body bags and injured
day and night.

On 09/29/2015 06:46 PM, wrote:
You'd be hard pressed to GIVE me a Mitsu. My daughter bought an
Elantra GT. Nice car. A lot less money than my second daughter's Honda
Civic too.

On our honeymoon in Quebec City I rented a first generation Dodge Colt,
which was a rebadged Mitsubichi, figuring a compact would be a little
better for navigating the city than the Continental. I'd driven up in
the Conti, cruising at 100 mph while my bride snoozed. With the Colt,
every time I got up past 25 she started having a panic attack.

In that thing a jaunt up to Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupre was a real adventure.

On Tue, 29 Sep 2015 20:20:59 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 09/29/2015 06:46 PM, wrote:
You'd be hard pressed to GIVE me a Mitsu. My daughter bought an
Elantra GT. Nice car. A lot less money than my second daughter's Honda
Civic too.

On our honeymoon in Quebec City I rented a first generation Dodge Colt,
which was a rebadged Mitsubichi, figuring a compact would be a little
better for navigating the city than the Continental. I'd driven up in
the Conti, cruising at 100 mph while my bride snoozed. With the Colt,
every time I got up past 25 she started having a panic attack.

In that thing a jaunt up to Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupre was a real adventure.
When I came home from Africa in 1975 I bought a 1972 Colt 1600. I
could not drive that car 15 miles without my legs going to sleep - the
seats were that terrible. My brother had a 1973 Cricket - the one year
they were re-badged Colts, not sunbeams - and his seats were fine.
Both cracked heads and had other problems that were deal-killers.
Never touched another one.

The 1972 Renault, and my '67 Peugeot 204 were both better cars
(definitely better rides) .

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/29/2015 7:01 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


I am sorry, being a native Korean, I have no desire to drive Hyundai or
KIA(Hyundai owns KIA by the way) At start up Hyundai's technical mentor
was Mitsubishi. Wife drove Mitsubishi, Eagle Summit once. She collected
most speeding ticket driving this little 2.4 L, AWD model, LOL!

Why are you sorry?

I used to laugh at people buying the original Hyundai Excels. the little
boxes that the paint wore off of. Then they changed. I bought a US
built Sonata Limited in 2007, 2010, 2013. I liked each one more than
the last. Just bought a Korea built 2015 Genesis. Amazing car with all
the options. Amazing quality too. Total of 220,000 miles and only one
warranty repair. Far better record than GM cars I've owned.

I kinda obliged to try at least one Korean brand but old memory is too
strong to forget. I know Sonata is very nice car. It is up there in it's
class. Friend in L/A had a Genesis. Ended up going back to Lexus.
His wife drives Acura TL.

On 09/29/2015 09:32 PM, wrote:
The 1972 Renault, and my '67 Peugeot 204 were both better cars

My brother had a Peugeot that he really liked that would have been about
the same vintage. He put a lot of high speed miles on it driving out to
his job in the desert.

He had been a Marine in the South Pacific and it wasn't until some time
in the '90s that he would buy a Japanese car, a Tercel to tow behind the
motor home. After that he bought a couple of the larger Toyota sedans.
Camrys? I never could keep the models straight even though I drive a Yaris.

On 09/29/2015 10:30 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
I kinda obliged to try at least one Korean brand but old memory is too
strong to forget.

I think they've improved. Years ago I looked at a Chevy Aveo, which was
a Daewoo. It was pretty sad; slow, noisy, and very poor fuel economy
considering its underpowered engine.

On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 9:10:20 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 09/29/2015 03:28 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Wrong leather you silly thing. It's "Corinthian Leather" ^_~

Is that the leather the Romans made out of the Achaeans after they
destroyed Corinth?

It was marketing gimmick made up by the advertising company. I've never seen a Corinthian, have you? Unless you mean the feller who owned Playboy Magazine. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Corinthian Monster

rbowman wrote:
On 09/29/2015 10:30 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
I kinda obliged to try at least one Korean brand but old memory is too
strong to forget.

I think they've improved. Years ago I looked at a Chevy Aveo, which was
a Daewoo. It was pretty sad; slow, noisy, and very poor fuel economy
considering its underpowered engine.

Daewoo produced GM cars were all flop. None of them lasted.

On 9/29/2015 9:50 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
rbowman wrote:
On 09/29/2015 10:30 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
I kinda obliged to try at least one Korean brand but old memory is too
strong to forget.

I think they've improved. Years ago I looked at a Chevy Aveo, which was
a Daewoo. It was pretty sad; slow, noisy, and very poor fuel economy
considering its underpowered engine.

Daewoo produced GM cars were all flop. None of them lasted.

IMO, safety and "reliability" are, by far, the most important issues
in making a car purchase. You don't want to die (unnecessarily)
in it. And, you want it to *start* every time you ask it to!

I've watched people take the "penny wise, pound foolish" approach
to purchases over the years and the consequences of those short-sighted
decisions.

[I recall colleagues who bought "off brand (PC) clones" in the mid 80's
hoping to save a few bucks. And, the countless hours they lost when
things didn't quite work as they had hoped (hence the rice of the "100%
compatible" notion).]

"Don Y" wrote in message

stuff snipped

[I recall colleagues who bought "off brand (PC) clones" in the mid 80's
hoping to save a few bucks. And, the countless hours they lost when
things didn't quite work as they had hoped (hence the rice of the "100%
compatible" notion).]

I was a consultant back then and I built a 6 PC dBaseII data system that had
paralegals entering data abstracts on 4 machines nearly around the clock on
XT clones. Periodically I would sneaker net the abstracted data onto two AT
clones daily for searching. Couldn't have done it without the price break
the clones provided and didn't have any trouble running dBaseII and Wordstar
on those machines.

I had considerable help from VF associates and owner Tom Von Flandern and
his sons. (DC area computer geeks of the time probably know the name.) They
lived, breathed and ate clones and stocked what they thought were the most
reliable equipment. I spent 10's of thousands of dollars there. The only
dud I bought was a Tulin 40MB drive that crapped out very shortly after
purchase. Then, the company managed to go bankrupt while "servicing" my
dead drive.

I also managed to get a stack of new PC Jr half height 360K drives with an
IBM logo on the front to install in the machines I used in the abstracting
project. Since the only logo visible was "IBM" no one in a multi-hundred
employee law firm knew that they were clones.

I'll agree that the more esoteric the application, the more likely
compatibility problems would arise but I rarely saw them. I had legit IBMs
on site, but clones could be had for considerably less than the real thing.
After a while, I *preferred* clones because I could select what motherboard
I wanted from a selection of suppliers that also made boards for the Big
Boys. I ended up mostly with Asus motherboards in my machines because they
seemed the most reliable but I've used Tyan, Gigabyte, MSI and many more.

I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

--
Bobby G.

On 9/30/2015 2:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message

[I recall colleagues who bought "off brand (PC) clones" in the mid 80's
hoping to save a few bucks. And, the countless hours they lost when
things didn't quite work as they had hoped (hence the rice of the "100%
compatible" notion).]

I was a consultant back then and I built a 6 PC dBaseII data system that had
paralegals entering data abstracts on 4 machines nearly around the clock on
XT clones. Periodically I would sneaker net the abstracted data onto two AT
clones daily for searching. Couldn't have done it without the price break
the clones provided and didn't have any trouble running dBaseII and Wordstar
on those machines.

Those are relatively "mainstream" applications. You weren't drawing
schematics, designing circuit boards, or creating molds for injection
molded parts.

I had considerable help from VF associates and owner Tom Von Flandern and
his sons. (DC area computer geeks of the time probably know the name.) They
lived, breathed and ate clones and stocked what they thought were the most
reliable equipment. I spent 10's of thousands of dollars there. The only
dud I bought was a Tulin 40MB drive that crapped out very shortly after
purchase. Then, the company managed to go bankrupt while "servicing" my
dead drive.

I also managed to get a stack of new PC Jr half height 360K drives with an
IBM logo on the front to install in the machines I used in the abstracting
project. Since the only logo visible was "IBM" no one in a multi-hundred
employee law firm knew that they were clones.

I'll agree that the more esoteric the application, the more likely
compatibility problems would arise but I rarely saw them. I had legit IBMs
on site, but clones could be had for considerably less than the real thing.
After a while, I *preferred* clones because I could select what motherboard
I wanted from a selection of suppliers that also made boards for the Big
Boys. I ended up mostly with Asus motherboards in my machines because they
seemed the most reliable but I've used Tyan, Gigabyte, MSI and many more.

I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I didn't run "IBM-badged" hardware. OTOH, I didn't run "Peoples' Computer
Factory #2733" UNBADGED machines. When my friends were paying ~2K for
a machine, I was paying 8K. But, I never called anyone at 3AM complaining
that a $3K CAD program "was misbehaving". Or, that my "discount" disk
drive's geometry wasn't supported in the machine's BIOS, etc. Or, my
(UN*X) coprocessor card was incompatible with the DOS driver it loaded
"under" the UN*X OS for "hardware services".

On 09/30/2015 03:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I never owned a genuine IBM PC and didn't have compatibility problems.
Some were hotter than PCs, in more ways than one.

I'm always amused when people I consider to be toward the left end of
the political spectrum favor Apple products. I guess they like the 'my
way or the highway' approach Apple has always used.

On 09/29/2015 10:48 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
It was marketing gimmick made up by the advertising company. I've never seen a Corinthian, have you? Unless you mean the feller who owned Playboy Magazine. ^_^

I've seen many Corinthians, having grown up near Corinth. NY, that is.
It may have been easier to be a Corinthian than a resident of nearby
Troy. Nothing like marching out onto the football field singing 'We are
the mighty Trojans from Troy High!'

That part of NYS had been hit hard by the classical naming fad. They
were easier on outsiders than the German and Indian names that left them
tongue tied. For example, Poestenkill. Hint: the first 'e' is a
typographical convention for an umlauted 'o', not anything you want to
try to work into your pronunciation.

On 9/29/2015 4:01 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

I am sorry, being a native Korean, I have no desire to drive Hyundai or
KIA(Hyundai owns KIA by the way) At start up Hyundai's technical mentor
was Mitsubishi. Wife drove Mitsubishi, Eagle Summit once. She collected
most speeding ticket driving this little 2.4 L, AWD model, LOL!

I live in an area with a large Korean population. I was often at my kids
high school on Saturday mornings to help with band stuff, and that's
when the school is used for Korean school, a big enterprise with about
800 kids being dropped off, and three people directing traffic. Very few
Japanese cars. A lot of the Koreans will not buy a Japanese car, for the
obvious reason, so you see a lot of Korean, American, and German cars.

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 8:51:41 AM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 09/30/2015 03:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I never owned a genuine IBM PC and didn't have compatibility problems.
Some were hotter than PCs, in more ways than one.

I'm always amused when people I consider to be toward the left end of
the political spectrum favor Apple products. I guess they like the 'my
way or the highway' approach Apple has always used.

Perhaps Progressive Liberal Leftist Commiecrat Freaks are too busy trying to save The Earth from WTF to have time to screw around with anything that requires a little intelligence to get it to work? So they become Apple snobs which fits because they have delusions that they're smarter than everyone else. Those of their ilk want an appliance they can get online with. Me, I'm using a Chromebook, I turn it on and it just works. I don't have to worry about updates, antivirus or antimalware software. There aren't enough of us Chromebook users to become snobs,.....yet. ~_^

[8~{} Uncle Snob Monster

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:25:41 AM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 8:51:41 AM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 09/30/2015 03:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I never owned a genuine IBM PC and didn't have compatibility problems.
Some were hotter than PCs, in more ways than one.

I'm always amused when people I consider to be toward the left end of
the political spectrum favor Apple products. I guess they like the 'my
way or the highway' approach Apple has always used.

Perhaps Progressive Liberal Leftist Commiecrat Freaks are too busy trying to save The Earth from WTF to have time to screw around with anything that requires a little intelligence to get it to work? So they become Apple snobs which fits because they have delusions that they're smarter than everyone else. Those of their ilk want an appliance they can get online with. Me, I'm using a Chromebook, I turn it on and it just works. I don't have to worry about updates, antivirus or antimalware software. There aren't enough of us Chromebook users to become snobs,.....yet. ~_^

[8~{} Uncle Snob Monster

In my experience, I find the opposite...your ilk are the elite, snobbish, Apple-types. You always like to pigeonhole people...that does not work, as you will be wrong most of the time. But you don't actually care...

On Tue, 29 Sep 2015 22:50:46 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

rbowman wrote:
On 09/29/2015 10:30 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
I kinda obliged to try at least one Korean brand but old memory is too
strong to forget.

I think they've improved. Years ago I looked at a Chevy Aveo, which was
a Daewoo. It was pretty sad; slow, noisy, and very poor fuel economy
considering its underpowered engine.

Daewoo produced GM cars were all flop. None of them lasted.
The original Daewoo branded daiwoos were prety crappy cars too.

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 05:48:01 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Don Y" wrote in message

stuff snipped

[I recall colleagues who bought "off brand (PC) clones" in the mid 80's
hoping to save a few bucks. And, the countless hours they lost when
things didn't quite work as they had hoped (hence the rice of the "100%
compatible" notion).]

I was a consultant back then and I built a 6 PC dBaseII data system that had
paralegals entering data abstracts on 4 machines nearly around the clock on
XT clones. Periodically I would sneaker net the abstracted data onto two AT
clones daily for searching. Couldn't have done it without the price break
the clones provided and didn't have any trouble running dBaseII and Wordstar
on those machines.

I had considerable help from VF associates and owner Tom Von Flandern and
his sons. (DC area computer geeks of the time probably know the name.) They
lived, breathed and ate clones and stocked what they thought were the most
reliable equipment. I spent 10's of thousands of dollars there. The only
dud I bought was a Tulin 40MB drive that crapped out very shortly after
purchase. Then, the company managed to go bankrupt while "servicing" my
dead drive.

I also managed to get a stack of new PC Jr half height 360K drives with an
IBM logo on the front to install in the machines I used in the abstracting
project. Since the only logo visible was "IBM" no one in a multi-hundred
employee law firm knew that they were clones.

I'll agree that the more esoteric the application, the more likely
compatibility problems would arise but I rarely saw them. I had legit IBMs
on site, but clones could be had for considerably less than the real thing.
After a while, I *preferred* clones because I could select what motherboard
I wanted from a selection of suppliers that also made boards for the Big
Boys. I ended up mostly with Asus motherboards in my machines because they
seemed the most reliable but I've used Tyan, Gigabyte, MSI and many more.

I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.
I worked for 5 years for a small high-end clone mfg here in Canada -
the first PCs to be sold with a 3 year warranty.
They were really good machines, at a very competetive price, until a
beancounter took over the company with the help of a socalled "Harvard
MBA" - between the 2 they killed the quality and bled the company into
backrupsy within about 3 years. (I was gone in about 1 1/2)

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 08:25:27 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 8:51:41 AM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 09/30/2015 03:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I never owned a genuine IBM PC and didn't have compatibility problems.
Some were hotter than PCs, in more ways than one.

I'm always amused when people I consider to be toward the left end of
the political spectrum favor Apple products. I guess they like the 'my
way or the highway' approach Apple has always used.

Perhaps Progressive Liberal Leftist Commiecrat Freaks are too busy trying to save The Earth from WTF to have time to screw around with anything that requires a little intelligence to get it to work? So they become Apple snobs which fits because they have delusions that they're smarter than everyone else. Those of their ilk want an appliance they can get online with. Me, I'm using a Chromebook, I turn it on and it just works. I don't have to worry about updates, antivirus or antimalware software. There aren't enough of us Chromebook users to become snobs,.....yet. ~_^

[8~{} Uncle Snob Monster
They drive Bimmers ans Audballs too.

On 9/30/2015 12:30 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:


I kinda obliged to try at least one Korean brand but old memory is too
strong to forget. I know Sonata is very nice car. It is up there in it's
class. Friend in L/A had a Genesis. Ended up going back to Lexus.
His wife drives Acura TL.

The 2009 to 2014 Genesis was not up to the Lexus. In 2015 they got it
right.

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 9:01:05 AM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 09/29/2015 10:48 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
It was marketing gimmick made up by the advertising company. I've never seen a Corinthian, have you? Unless you mean the feller who owned Playboy Magazine. ^_^

I've seen many Corinthians, having grown up near Corinth. NY, that is.
It may have been easier to be a Corinthian than a resident of nearby
Troy. Nothing like marching out onto the football field singing 'We are
the mighty Trojans from Troy High!'

That part of NYS had been hit hard by the classical naming fad. They
were easier on outsiders than the German and Indian names that left them
tongue tied. For example, Poestenkill. Hint: the first 'e' is a
typographical convention for an umlauted 'o', not anything you want to
try to work into your pronunciation.

I think it's like that all over the country. Here in Alabamastan there is Troy University in Troy,AL. There is also Athens,AL. Heck there is even a Florence,AL. A lot towns and cities here have names from the autochthonous people from the area. Even the name of the state of Alabama is based on an indigenous tribe "The Alibamu". When I was a little kid, I lived in the town, "Attalla" in "Etowah" county which are both words from the Cherokee language. There's even a town named "Indian Springs Village". There are a lot mountains, lakes and rivers in the state that got their names from the earliest inhabitants of the land. I wish government schools were teaching American history like it really happened warts and all. Hell, I wish kids were taught the true history of the world instead of the bizarre Politically Correct codswallop that being shoved down their throats in today's schools. o_O

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2013/02...h-greek-names/

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:38:51 AM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:25:41 AM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 8:51:41 AM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 09/30/2015 03:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I never owned a genuine IBM PC and didn't have compatibility problems..
Some were hotter than PCs, in more ways than one.

I'm always amused when people I consider to be toward the left end of
the political spectrum favor Apple products. I guess they like the 'my
way or the highway' approach Apple has always used.

Perhaps Progressive Liberal Leftist Commiecrat Freaks are too busy trying to save The Earth from WTF to have time to screw around with anything that requires a little intelligence to get it to work? So they become Apple snobs which fits because they have delusions that they're smarter than everyone else. Those of their ilk want an appliance they can get online with. Me, I'm using a Chromebook, I turn it on and it just works. I don't have to worry about updates, antivirus or antimalware software. There aren't enough of us Chromebook users to become snobs,.....yet. ~_^

[8~{} Uncle Snob Monster

In my experience, I find the opposite...your ilk are the elite, snobbish, Apple-types. You always like to pigeonhole people...that does not work, as you will be wrong most of the time. But you don't actually care...

Gee wiz! I sure am glad I'm not one of the elite Apple using snobs! ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Unique Monster

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 3:11:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 05:48:01 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Don Y" wrote in message

stuff snipped

[I recall colleagues who bought "off brand (PC) clones" in the mid 80's
hoping to save a few bucks. And, the countless hours they lost when
things didn't quite work as they had hoped (hence the rice of the "100%
compatible" notion).]

I was a consultant back then and I built a 6 PC dBaseII data system that had
paralegals entering data abstracts on 4 machines nearly around the clock on
XT clones. Periodically I would sneaker net the abstracted data onto two AT
clones daily for searching. Couldn't have done it without the price break
the clones provided and didn't have any trouble running dBaseII and Wordstar
on those machines.

I had considerable help from VF associates and owner Tom Von Flandern and
his sons. (DC area computer geeks of the time probably know the name.) They
lived, breathed and ate clones and stocked what they thought were the most
reliable equipment. I spent 10's of thousands of dollars there. The only
dud I bought was a Tulin 40MB drive that crapped out very shortly after
purchase. Then, the company managed to go bankrupt while "servicing" my
dead drive.

I also managed to get a stack of new PC Jr half height 360K drives with an
IBM logo on the front to install in the machines I used in the abstracting
project. Since the only logo visible was "IBM" no one in a multi-hundred
employee law firm knew that they were clones.

I'll agree that the more esoteric the application, the more likely
compatibility problems would arise but I rarely saw them. I had legit IBMs
on site, but clones could be had for considerably less than the real thing.
After a while, I *preferred* clones because I could select what motherboard
I wanted from a selection of suppliers that also made boards for the Big
Boys. I ended up mostly with Asus motherboards in my machines because they
seemed the most reliable but I've used Tyan, Gigabyte, MSI and many more..

I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.
I worked for 5 years for a small high-end clone mfg here in Canada -
the first PCs to be sold with a 3 year warranty.
They were really good machines, at a very competetive price, until a
beancounter took over the company with the help of a socalled "Harvard
MBA" - between the 2 they killed the quality and bled the company into
backrupsy within about 3 years. (I was gone in about 1 1/2)

What you described also killed Radio Shack. I left a corporation that had a feminazi running the human resources department. The company became riddled with AAM's,"Affirmative Action Morons" and the company was gone a year after I left. That's what happens when you put someone in a job for reasons other than the content of their character. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Radio Monster

On 10/01/2015 12:18 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:38:51 AM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:

In my experience, I find the opposite...your ilk are the elite, snobbish, Apple-types. You always like to pigeonhole people...that does not work, as you will be wrong most of the time. But you don't actually care...

Gee wiz! I sure am glad I'm not one of the elite Apple using snobs! ^_^


Yah, those snobbish little kids and their Nike sneakers became iPhone/iPad/iPod/iTV iDiots!

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 3:26:39 AM UTC-5, look wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:18 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:38:51 AM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:

In my experience, I find the opposite...your ilk are the elite, snobbish, Apple-types. You always like to pigeonhole people...that does not work, as you will be wrong most of the time. But you don't actually care...

Gee wiz! I sure am glad I'm not one of the elite Apple using snobs! ^_^


Yah, those snobbish little kids and their Nike sneakers became iPhone/iPad/iPod/iTV iDiots!

I feel so depraved, I mean, deprived because I never had Nike sneakers or an iPhone. My self esteem is shattered. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Depraved Monster

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 05:48:01 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

stuff snipped

I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it
was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I worked for 5 years for a small high-end clone mfg here in Canada -
the first PCs to be sold with a 3 year warranty.
They were really good machines, at a very competetive price, until a
beancounter took over the company with the help of a socalled "Harvard
MBA" - between the 2 they killed the quality and bled the company into
backrupsy within about 3 years. (I was gone in about 1 1/2)

Those same bean counters ran through my old employer's company destroying
value while alleging to make us more efficient. I think they're soon to
collapse with the coming changes in government contracting.

Compatibility-wise, I think the clones (good ones, anyway) really helped
move the PC revolution along. My first *real* IBM PC cost over $5,000 (this
is when full height diskette drives were also about $600). The clones
helped force prices of all peripherals out of the IBM stratosphere and into
the real world. Eventually I was buying the surplus IBM half-height
diskette drives (from the botched PC JR) for $40 - quite a drop from $600.

Some of the clones offered options that even IBM didn't. One board I bought
had 8 sockets for BIOS chips. That really fascinated my friend who liked to
program in assembler.

Another AT clone had a CPU that wasn't artificially prevented from running
at 8MHz like the IBM AT was for a while.

IIRC, the ultimate test of a PC's compatibility was:

"Can it run flight simulator?"

--
Bobby G.

"rbowman" wrote in message
...
On 09/30/2015 03:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it
was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I never owned a genuine IBM PC and didn't have compatibility problems.

It really depended on the clone and what you were doing with it. I have
seen compatibility issues and have worked through some of them, mostly with
high-end graphics and with HW manufacturers deciding to cleverly make use of
areas of memory IBM had marked as "resevered" in their tech manuals.
Remember the days of EMS and expanded memory and programs like 386 to the
Max?

Some were hotter than PCs, in more ways than one.

I've purchased and seen some pretty wild looking CPU coolers. Big copper
pad coolers that look like the Guggenheim museum. Coolers with thin fins
spread out like a card-sharp's show-off deal. Never did get into
overclocking in a big way so I never got into water-cooled rigs. Although I
never saw much point in overclocking, a PC design engineer I talked to said
that overclockers provided excellent feedback about PC designs and
limitations because they were right on the bleeding edge.

I'm always amused when people I consider to be toward the left end of
the political spectrum favor Apple products. I guess they like the 'my
way or the highway' approach Apple has always used.

Hey, even I am considering getting an iPhone because I was unimpressed by
the Android "industry's" reaction to the StageFright bug. It also torques
me up to see that every damn version of Android is slightly different.

Apple controls their whole eco-system and generally delivers a more uniform
experience. When the StageFright bug was found, Google, Samsung and others
appeared to stall, pointing fingers at others while trying to decide who
should fix what. Apple just mostly fixes the stuff without the corporate
drama.

I've read a number of case studies that ask why Apple makes virtually all
the profit in the cell phone industry. (Really, only Samsung makes a
profit - the rest operate at a loss).

http://nyti.ms/1Qp3ipy

The reason is partly snob appeal but it's also because Apples seem to be
very well-liked by the people that use them. Far more so than Android users
like their phones.

As for politics, my wife, a retired Army colonel somewhere to the right of
Atilla the Hun, loves her iPhone. I've always been on the PC/clone side of
the Apple/Wintel war, but I will probably end up getting an iPhone. If it's
going to become the hub of my computer operations, I want it to come from a
company that's on the ball.

--
Bobby G.

On 9/30/2015 6:52 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/30/2015 03:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I never owned a genuine IBM PC and didn't have compatibility problems. Some
were hotter than PCs, in more ways than one.

I'm always amused when people I consider to be toward the left end of the
political spectrum favor Apple products. I guess they like the 'my way or the
highway' approach Apple has always used.

Most of the folks that I know who are into Macs "just want it to work".
They tend not to use esoteric software (e.g., just a "productivity
suite") so can live with the more restrictive offerings that seem
to be available to the Apple world. OTOH, they don't want to have
to spend an afternoon coercing a printer to interoperate with their
computer. Or, deal with DLL hell, The Registry, etc.

A neighbor who frequently called me to sort out his "PC problems"
bought a Mac about two years ago. I've not heard from him (wrt
computer problems) since then! So, either he has decided he
doesn't need all those programs and peripherals that he needed
previously on his PC (doubtful!) *or* the Mac manages to make
it easier for him to make it work without my involvement.

[He's a Republican, if that matters : ]

Old (e.g., 68K) Macs were always BUILT much better than PC's of similar
vintage. But, running MacOS was just impractical (for the sorts of
applications that *I* want). And, they were terribly underpowered
(esp for the price).

Don Y wrote:
On 9/30/2015 6:52 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/30/2015 03:48 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as
it was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I never owned a genuine IBM PC and didn't have compatibility problems.
Some
were hotter than PCs, in more ways than one.

I'm always amused when people I consider to be toward the left end of the
political spectrum favor Apple products. I guess they like the 'my way
or the
highway' approach Apple has always used.

Most of the folks that I know who are into Macs "just want it to work".
They tend not to use esoteric software (e.g., just a "productivity
suite") so can live with the more restrictive offerings that seem
to be available to the Apple world. OTOH, they don't want to have
to spend an afternoon coercing a printer to interoperate with their
computer. Or, deal with DLL hell, The Registry, etc.

A neighbor who frequently called me to sort out his "PC problems"
bought a Mac about two years ago. I've not heard from him (wrt
computer problems) since then! So, either he has decided he
doesn't need all those programs and peripherals that he needed
previously on his PC (doubtful!) *or* the Mac manages to make
it easier for him to make it work without my involvement.

[He's a Republican, if that matters : ]

Old (e.g., 68K) Macs were always BUILT much better than PC's of similar
vintage. But, running MacOS was just impractical (for the sorts of
applications that *I* want). And, they were terribly underpowered
(esp for the price).

Mac is just for general consumers. Is there a Mac used as server?
I had assembled a few PC clone to control mould making machine using
laser beam. Using top quality power supply, memory, 3D capable high
res. graphics card, enterprise class HD. None ever had trouble. This
boxes run only specific application 24/7. Cutting a mould from special
alloy block often takes for days. My SIL owns the shop. Always too much
work to do. Even he makes helicopter engine mounts for military
helicopters. Many things for oil field equipment, etc. He makes mould
for something like RJ45 jack. He is mechanical engineer by training.
Couldn't be happier quitting his desk job and starting his own business.

On 10/1/2015 10:47 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Mac is just for general consumers. Is there a Mac used as server?

Yes, there are several 1U Mac servers. Now considerably more practical
as OSX isn't *entirely* geared to single users (as MacOS was)

I had assembled a few PC clone to control mould making machine using
laser beam. Using top quality power supply, memory, 3D capable high
res. graphics card, enterprise class HD. None ever had trouble. This boxes run

PC's have come a long way since the early/mid 80's. And, applications
are now largely prevented from diddling with specifics of the hardware
as they could "in the old days". E.g., I have software that won't
work with USB serial ports, USB parallel ports, etc. but, instead,
requires *genuine* hardware ports. One early ecad program required
a special mouse card and mouse! (the application talked directly
to the mouse, not a "driver layer")

only specific application 24/7. Cutting a mould from special alloy block often
takes for days. My SIL owns the shop. Always too much work to do. Even he makes
helicopter engine mounts for military helicopters. Many things for oil field
equipment, etc. He makes mould for something like RJ45 jack. He is mechanical
engineer by training.
Couldn't be happier quitting his desk job and starting his own business.

I've not regretted setting out on my own, decades ago. It let me decide
how I wanted to spend my days -- instead of someone else TELLING me how
they would be spent.

I *do* miss not having a "stationery cupboard" that I could raid for
supplies without worrying about restocking it. Similarly, it would be
nice to be able to have a technician order parts for prototypes instead
of having to do so, myself. I.e., the "grunt work" that I can't
pawn off on someone else as would be the case in a 9-to-5.

OTOH, the idea of having employees would be worse (to me) than having a *boss*!

Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 3:26:39 AM UTC-5, look wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:18 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:38:51 AM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:

In my experience, I find the opposite...your ilk are the elite, snobbish, Apple-types. You always like to pigeonhole people...that does not work, as you will be wrong most of the time. But you don't actually care...

Gee wiz! I sure am glad I'm not one of the elite Apple using snobs! ^_^


Yah, those snobbish little kids and their Nike sneakers became iPhone/iPad/iPod/iTV iDiots!

I feel so depraved, I mean, deprived because I never had Nike sneakers or an iPhone. My self esteem is shattered. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Depraved Monster

How come? My self esteem is boosted not having those.
Too many of those things make one dumb and stupid, LOL!
Wal Mart sneakers are just fine with me working in the yard,
walking the dog.

Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 05:48:01 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

stuff snipped

I am not sure that the PC revolution would have been as remarkable as it
was
without the clones. They enabled a lot more people access to personal
computing than an IBM-only world would have.

I worked for 5 years for a small high-end clone mfg here in Canada -
the first PCs to be sold with a 3 year warranty.
They were really good machines, at a very competetive price, until a
beancounter took over the company with the help of a socalled "Harvard
MBA" - between the 2 they killed the quality and bled the company into
backrupsy within about 3 years. (I was gone in about 1 1/2)

Those same bean counters ran through my old employer's company destroying
value while alleging to make us more efficient. I think they're soon to
collapse with the coming changes in government contracting.

Compatibility-wise, I think the clones (good ones, anyway) really helped
move the PC revolution along. My first *real* IBM PC cost over $5,000 (this
is when full height diskette drives were also about $600). The clones
helped force prices of all peripherals out of the IBM stratosphere and into
the real world. Eventually I was buying the surplus IBM half-height
diskette drives (from the botched PC JR) for $40 - quite a drop from $600.

Some of the clones offered options that even IBM didn't. One board I bought
had 8 sockets for BIOS chips. That really fascinated my friend who liked to
program in assembler.

Another AT clone had a CPU that wasn't artificially prevented from running
at 8MHz like the IBM AT was for a while.

IIRC, the ultimate test of a PC's compatibility was:

"Can it run flight simulator?"

--
Bobby G.


Side note, any one wired up an old Imsai box?
Did not play with Z80 cpu? At very early stage
we could assemble Apple II clone. Apples big thing
was using GUI(point and click) on thier OS pretty early.

Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 10:47 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Mac is just for general consumers. Is there a Mac used as server?

Yes, there are several 1U Mac servers. Now considerably more practical
as OSX isn't *entirely* geared to single users (as MacOS was)

I had assembled a few PC clone to control mould making machine using
laser beam. Using top quality power supply, memory, 3D capable high
res. graphics card, enterprise class HD. None ever had trouble. This
boxes run

PC's have come a long way since the early/mid 80's. And, applications
are now largely prevented from diddling with specifics of the hardware
as they could "in the old days". E.g., I have software that won't
work with USB serial ports, USB parallel ports, etc. but, instead,
requires *genuine* hardware ports. One early ecad program required
a special mouse card and mouse! (the application talked directly
to the mouse, not a "driver layer")

only specific application 24/7. Cutting a mould from special alloy
block often
takes for days. My SIL owns the shop. Always too much work to do. Even
he makes
helicopter engine mounts for military helicopters. Many things for oil
field
equipment, etc. He makes mould for something like RJ45 jack. He is
mechanical
engineer by training.
Couldn't be happier quitting his desk job and starting his own business.

I've not regretted setting out on my own, decades ago. It let me decide
how I wanted to spend my days -- instead of someone else TELLING me how
they would be spent.

I *do* miss not having a "stationery cupboard" that I could raid for
supplies without worrying about restocking it. Similarly, it would be
nice to be able to have a technician order parts for prototypes instead
of having to do so, myself. I.e., the "grunt work" that I can't
pawn off on someone else as would be the case in a 9-to-5.

OTOH, the idea of having employees would be worse (to me) than having a
*boss*!

What SIL did was gathered round some class mates to form core of the
place. All employees participate in profit sharing. Still he says HR is
always stressful. He just turned 40. His goal is to retire at 50. Move
to small Alpine town where daughter can practice(rural family medicine).
They are avid mountain people, trekking, rock climbing, ice climbing,
skiing, etc.

On 10/1/2015 2:20 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:


How come? My self esteem is boosted not having those.
Too many of those things make one dumb and stupid, LOL!
Wal Mart sneakers are just fine with me working in the yard,
walking the dog.

When my kids were in high school they went through that stage.

Dad, I need sneakers.

OK son, here is $25

But dad, Nikes cost $50

OK, buy one now and get the other in a couple of months.

On 10/1/2015 11:34 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 10:47 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Mac is just for general consumers. Is there a Mac used as server?

Yes, there are several 1U Mac servers. Now considerably more practical
as OSX isn't *entirely* geared to single users (as MacOS was)

I had assembled a few PC clone to control mould making machine using
laser beam. Using top quality power supply, memory, 3D capable high
res. graphics card, enterprise class HD. None ever had trouble. This
boxes run

PC's have come a long way since the early/mid 80's. And, applications
are now largely prevented from diddling with specifics of the hardware
as they could "in the old days". E.g., I have software that won't
work with USB serial ports, USB parallel ports, etc. but, instead,
requires *genuine* hardware ports. One early ecad program required
a special mouse card and mouse! (the application talked directly
to the mouse, not a "driver layer")

only specific application 24/7. Cutting a mould from special alloy
block often
takes for days. My SIL owns the shop. Always too much work to do. Even
he makes
helicopter engine mounts for military helicopters. Many things for oil
field
equipment, etc. He makes mould for something like RJ45 jack. He is
mechanical
engineer by training.
Couldn't be happier quitting his desk job and starting his own business.

I've not regretted setting out on my own, decades ago. It let me decide
how I wanted to spend my days -- instead of someone else TELLING me how
they would be spent.

I *do* miss not having a "stationery cupboard" that I could raid for
supplies without worrying about restocking it. Similarly, it would be
nice to be able to have a technician order parts for prototypes instead
of having to do so, myself. I.e., the "grunt work" that I can't
pawn off on someone else as would be the case in a 9-to-5.

OTOH, the idea of having employees would be worse (to me) than having a
*boss*!

What SIL did was gathered round some class mates to form core of the place. All
employees participate in profit sharing. Still he says HR is always stressful.

I would think it would be *moreso* because "everyone has a stake" ("You can't
fire me! I'm a part owner!") and all are/were "friends".

One of the best things (retrospectively) in my career was NOT going into
business with my best friend. We had complimentary talents, similar
outlooks/goals, etc. But, in hindsight, he opted for security and
profits while I opted for diversity and "adventure". I.e., this would
have turned up sooner or later and soured our relationship.

He just turned 40. His goal is to retire at 50. Move
to small Alpine town where daughter can practice(rural family medicine). They
are avid mountain people, trekking, rock climbing, ice climbing, skiing, etc.

I live in fear of "forced" retirement -- i.e., when my mind or body can
no longer keep up with the goals that I set for myself. My current
project has me taxed to the limits of my abilities -- so much so that,
for the first time in my career, I actually wonder if I can pull it off!

I have no idea what to do *after* this as I'm sure whatever goal I set
*would* be unattainable! :

On 10/1/2015 11:23 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Side note, any one wired up an old Imsai box?
Did not play with Z80 cpu? At very early stage
we could assemble Apple II clone. Apples big thing
was using GUI(point and click) on thier OS pretty early.

My first products were i4004 and i8080/8085 based.
I spent a *lot* of time with the Z80 -- I suspect I
could still "hand assemble" machine code (i.e., 16r01xxxx,
16r11xxxx, 16r21xxxx are the "LXI" opcodes (LD BC/DE/HL),
16r76 is HLT, etc.)

Zilog's most coloosal blunder was in not leveraging their Z80
successes (Z280, Z8000, Z80000, Z380, etc.) effectively.
They had to rely on Hitachi to breathe continued life into
the family with the '180 devices...

Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 11:23 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Side note, any one wired up an old Imsai box?
Did not play with Z80 cpu? At very early stage
we could assemble Apple II clone. Apples big thing
was using GUI(point and click) on thier OS pretty early.

My first products were i4004 and i8080/8085 based.
I spent a *lot* of time with the Z80 -- I suspect I
could still "hand assemble" machine code (i.e., 16r01xxxx,
16r11xxxx, 16r21xxxx are the "LXI" opcodes (LD BC/DE/HL),
16r76 is HLT, etc.)

Zilog's most coloosal blunder was in not leveraging their Z80
successes (Z280, Z8000, Z80000, Z380, etc.) effectively.
They had to rely on Hitachi to breathe continued life into
the family with the '180 devices...

I always miss Z80 vs. i8080. Got tired of wire wrapping and
bought a battery powered wrap gun. At times I found Gardener Denver's
mis-wiring trouble-shooting back panels later on. Tracing wiring was
not that difficult, all the wiring complex was available in micro fiche.
I was one man crew, so having a boss was just that. My rank was higher
than his on company pay grade. Any way I never put him in any kinda jam
on technical issues causing customer irritation.

On 10/1/2015 12:05 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 11:23 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Side note, any one wired up an old Imsai box?
Did not play with Z80 cpu? At very early stage
we could assemble Apple II clone. Apples big thing
was using GUI(point and click) on thier OS pretty early.

My first products were i4004 and i8080/8085 based.
I spent a *lot* of time with the Z80 -- I suspect I
could still "hand assemble" machine code (i.e., 16r01xxxx,
16r11xxxx, 16r21xxxx are the "LXI" opcodes (LD BC/DE/HL),
16r76 is HLT, etc.)

Zilog's most coloosal blunder was in not leveraging their Z80
successes (Z280, Z8000, Z80000, Z380, etc.) effectively.
They had to rely on Hitachi to breathe continued life into
the family with the '180 devices...

I always miss Z80 vs. i8080. Got tired of wire wrapping and
bought a battery powered wrap gun.

A friend bought me an electric GD gun as a bday gift. I also
had a "cut and strip" bit (feed kynar wire through hole in
bottom of bit, pull out through an opening in the outer sleeve,
pull trigger and wire is cut to length, stripped and wrapped
in one shot)

At times I found Gardener Denver's
mis-wiring trouble-shooting back panels later on. Tracing wiring was
not that difficult, all the wiring complex was available in micro fiche.

A small crochet hook was indispensible for fishing wires out of the
"rats nest". I worked on large 2 ft x 6 ft panels (military work)
where you were dealing with *thousands* of components on a single
panel (power supplied by 3/4" square -- cross sectional -- copper
"buss bars" running the length of the panels).

I was one man crew, so having a boss was just that. My rank was higher
than his on company pay grade. Any way I never put him in any kinda jam on
technical issues causing customer irritation.

Uncle Monster posted for all of us...



On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 4:04:27 PM UTC-5, Tekkie® wrote:
Uncle Monster posted for all of us...


On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 3:16:28 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
problems, "****ing off" the customer.


They did a good job at that on me. That was the third and last Crysler car
I bought. This car was especially bad in that it would not start. It was
funny. You could crank on it and run the battery all the way down. As it
was a manual transmission and I was living near the top of a hill, I could
get it rolling and pop the clutch and it would start. I had it towed in
about 3 times after running down the battery for them to repair and they
never got it repaired. It might have been the switch not making contact or
something in that start circuit.

I did not mention that when the car came in it had a bad spot on the paint.
The car was dark metalic blue and there was a roughly round spot about 6
inches in diameter that was light blue on the part of the trunk lid that
turns down. The dealer did repaint the trunk when I pointed that out. They
should have caught that before they called me to pick up the car, especially
as I bought it in a town about 20 miles away.

I once owned a Canadian built Cordoba and Detroit built Plymouth Fury.. The cars shared a common chassis and mechanical parts but the Chrysler from the plant in Canada was put together better. I believe it had more to do with the caliber of the auto workers at the different plants than the vehicle design. After I sorted out any problems the cars had, they were reliable and relatively trouble free but nothing like a bullet proof 65 Dart. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Car Monster


Did it have the Ricardo Montalban "Rich Cordoba Leather"?
--
Tekkie

Wrong leather you silly thing. It's "Corinthian Leather" ^_~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_leather

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIL3fbGbU2o

[8~{} Uncle Leather Monster

Sorry, I guess this was before pleather. ricky still demanded it...

--
Tekkie

rbowman posted for all of us...



On 09/29/2015 03:28 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Wrong leather you silly thing. It's "Corinthian Leather" ^_~

Is that the leather the Romans made out of the Achaeans after they
destroyed Corinth?

Nah, it's the stuff from Newark, NJ. Maybe the co. was on Corinthian Ave?
Nothing rich about Newark. Maybe made out of parchment paper and cigar
wrappers. I don't think the druggies had blunts then...

--
Tekkie