rbowman wrote:
On 09/26/2015 01:26 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Tourag and Passat have TDI models.

I don't have the numbers handy but I believe those are also a minor
slice of VWs American market.

Some VW cars resemble Audi counter part.
Tourag is pretty nice SUV, built sturdy. Neighbor has one with V8 and
I'd rather drive this one than big Lincoln Navigator. Eventually
we'll end up with one car when one of us loses driver's license. I am
sure that'll be me. Wife does not care what brand or what type car as
long as it's seat fits her and it is AWD no matter what. Everyone in my
family drives AWD vehicles. Jeep, Subaru, Acura. On top of that we have
to fit snow/ice tires in winter, she insists. Tire change over is my
job having air tools and good compressor but some 18" tires are getting
heavier by the year. I just passed medical to extend the license for 5
more years. After that medical every year. Went to niece's wedding who
is marrying E. Indian. Had Hindu ceremony which was interesting. She is
a PhD in forensic science working at RCMP crime lab. Boy is Nuclear
safety engineer with MBA, interesting couple. Family gained one more
engineer, Way too many engineers and MD in the family, not a lawyer yet.

On Saturday, September 26, 2015 at 10:46:33 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 09/26/2015 03:34 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
I am afraid you will have
to do a lot of research for past thoughts and remember anything posted here
is just someones opinion-including mine. I'm sorry not to give a magical
answer but I just went through this myself. You might save money getting a
2015 model as it's end of model year. Good luck.

There certainly isn't a magical answer. My mother traded a full sized
Dodge for a Gold Duster. It was a nice ride but it had me puzzled since
she had always insisted the family bucket had four doors. Her rationale
was if she bought something with four doors she would be the duty driver
every time her old girlfriends wanted to go someplace but none of the
old biddies were up to climbing in and out of the backseat of the Duster.

I test drove a 340 Duster back in the early 1970's. OMG it was quick. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fast Monster

On 09/26/2015 11:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/26/2015 09:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still driving
a mini-van.

You just like the little flower vase. Admit it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/au...h-anymore.html

No offense, but after VW discovered they'd built a chick car, they tried to reinvent it.

Its like the Miata. The Miata is really a competent car but it got the reputation of being a chick or gay ride and never overcame it.


You can tell a lot by the vehicle someone drives.
There's a guy at work, he's about 4'-2" and drives a new Dodge Ram 3500. I think he's a cross-dresser.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2015 21:39:53 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 09/26/2015 01:26 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Tourag and Passat have TDI models.

I don't have the numbers handy but I believe those are also a minor
slice of VWs American market.
Siesel VWs were 40% of North American sales in a recent month, from
what I read somewhere recently.

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 00:55:02 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 09/26/2015 10:03 PM, Muggles wrote:
A flower vase? Where? I love flowers!

You never saw those in the New Beetle? Not the new Beetle; they dropped
the flowers in 2012. Little bud vase on the dashboard, sort of like a
hearse. Sometimes the German mind goes off the rails. I mean what sort
of manly man is going to drive a car with a damn sprig of pansies?
You mean the shot glass?

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message news:fcd0e8d1- There
certainly isn't a magical answer. My mother traded a full sized
Dodge for a Gold Duster. It was a nice ride but it had me puzzled since
she had always insisted the family bucket had four doors. Her rationale
was if she bought something with four doors she would be the duty driver
every time her old girlfriends wanted to go someplace but none of the
old biddies were up to climbing in and out of the backseat of the Duster.

I test drove a 340 Duster back in the early 1970's. OMG it was quick. ^_^

If it was in 70's it was not all that quick.. I had a 69 Dart Swinger 340
and it was very quick. Someone ran a stop sign and total lost it. I
ordered a 72 with the same engine. When I drove it home I opened the hood
as I thought they had put in a 6 cylinder instead of the V8. Found out due
to the emissions and such they had lowered the compression from about 10.5
down to less than 9. The horsepower went way down,. Boy was I sick. Damn
thing turned out to be a lemon and always needed something and I traded it
off after less that 20,000 miles. A friend bought one about a week after ai
did off the lot from the same dealer. He had lots of problems with his
also.

On 9/27/2015 12:14 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2015 8:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
Why the attraction to a bug? (I can see a *classic* just for
nostalgia -- surely not SAFETY! : ) Are you looking for
small? Fuel efficient? Cute? etc.

I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still driving
a mini-van.

frown Do you have money to burn? I.e., do you care about the
reliability
and safety of the vehicle that hauls you around town?

No money to burn and I do care about reliability and safety.

Find something that is affordable and comfortable. If you want to be
"cute", put a big red bow on the front grill. Or, "eyelashes" above
the headlights. Or, a *tail* curving up over the back of the car
from the rear bumper.

I haven't bought one, yet, and I've looked at bunches of other brand
cars, too. Haven't found one for the right price with the right options
that had comfortable front seats, etc.

(seriously -- I have seen all of the above)

I've seen a few of those, too.

It will make your car more memorable (to you and others), won't cost
you much, won't alter the value, reliability or safety of the ride,
etc. A photo of a local vendor who is known for their crazy cars:
http://everydaychildhood.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/trulynolen3.jpg
Look carefully at the front end details...

Can't a Beetle be reliable and safe?

--
Maggie

On 9/27/2015 1:55 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/26/2015 10:03 PM, Muggles wrote:
A flower vase? Where? I love flowers!

You never saw those in the New Beetle? Not the new Beetle; they dropped
the flowers in 2012. Little bud vase on the dashboard, sort of like a
hearse. Sometimes the German mind goes off the rails. I mean what sort
of manly man is going to drive a car with a damn sprig of pansies?

LOL No, haven't seen the bud vase.

--
Maggie

On 9/27/2015 2:16 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Muggles wrote:
On 9/26/2015 10:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/26/2015 09:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still
driving
a mini-van.

You just like the little flower vase. Admit it.

A flower vase? Where? I love flowers!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/au...h-anymore.html



No offense, but after VW discovered they'd built a chick car, they tried
to reinvent it.

Its like the Miata. The Miata is really a competent car but it got the
reputation of being a chick or gay ride and never overcame it.

What can I say, I'm a chick. (—•€¿—•)

Are you a motor vehicle operator or driver? Miata has grown little
bigger now.

Miata? They seem a big small to me.

--
Maggie

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 10:47:59 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Uncle Monster" wrote in message news:fcd0e8d1- There
certainly isn't a magical answer. My mother traded a full sized
Dodge for a Gold Duster. It was a nice ride but it had me puzzled since
she had always insisted the family bucket had four doors. Her rationale
was if she bought something with four doors she would be the duty driver
every time her old girlfriends wanted to go someplace but none of the
old biddies were up to climbing in and out of the backseat of the Duster.

I test drove a 340 Duster back in the early 1970's. OMG it was quick. ^_^

If it was in 70's it was not all that quick.. I had a 69 Dart Swinger 340
and it was very quick. Someone ran a stop sign and total lost it. I
ordered a 72 with the same engine. When I drove it home I opened the hood
as I thought they had put in a 6 cylinder instead of the V8. Found out due
to the emissions and such they had lowered the compression from about 10.5
down to less than 9. The horsepower went way down,. Boy was I sick. Damn
thing turned out to be a lemon and always needed something and I traded it
off after less that 20,000 miles. A friend bought one about a week after ai
did off the lot from the same dealer. He had lots of problems with his
also.


nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
problems, "****ing off" the customer.

wrote in message
...
nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
problems, "****ing off" the customer.


They did a good job at that on me. That was the third and last Crysler car
I bought. This car was especially bad in that it would not start. It was
funny. You could crank on it and run the battery all the way down. As it
was a manual transmission and I was living near the top of a hill, I could
get it rolling and pop the clutch and it would start. I had it towed in
about 3 times after running down the battery for them to repair and they
never got it repaired. It might have been the switch not making contact or
something in that start circuit.

I did not mention that when the car came in it had a bad spot on the paint.
The car was dark metalic blue and there was a roughly round spot about 6
inches in diameter that was light blue on the part of the trunk lid that
turns down. The dealer did repaint the trunk when I pointed that out. They
should have caught that before they called me to pick up the car, especially
as I bought it in a town about 20 miles away.

On 9/27/2015 12:07 PM, Muggles wrote:


Can't a Beetle be reliable and safe?


Beetle does have a good safety rating. Can't speak for its reliability,
but there are no really bad cars these days. Some better than others,
all better than cars made years ago.

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 7:56:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 26 Sep 2015 21:39:53 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 09/26/2015 01:26 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Tourag and Passat have TDI models.

I don't have the numbers handy but I believe those are also a minor
slice of VWs American market.
Siesel VWs were 40% of North American sales in a recent month, from
what I read somewhere recently.

Those letters are right next to each other. *snicker* ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Spelling Monster

i didn't see an answer

how about renting something you think you like,
for a day or two,
or a week?

marc

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 9:48:13 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message news:fcd0e8d1- There
certainly isn't a magical answer. My mother traded a full sized
Dodge for a Gold Duster. It was a nice ride but it had me puzzled since
she had always insisted the family bucket had four doors. Her rationale
was if she bought something with four doors she would be the duty driver
every time her old girlfriends wanted to go someplace but none of the
old biddies were up to climbing in and out of the backseat of the Duster.

I test drove a 340 Duster back in the early 1970's. OMG it was quick. ^_^

If it was in 70's it was not all that quick.. I had a 69 Dart Swinger 340
and it was very quick. Someone ran a stop sign and total lost it. I
ordered a 72 with the same engine. When I drove it home I opened the hood
as I thought they had put in a 6 cylinder instead of the V8. Found out due
to the emissions and such they had lowered the compression from about 10.5
down to less than 9. The horsepower went way down,. Boy was I sick. Damn
thing turned out to be a lemon and always needed something and I traded it
off after less that 20,000 miles. A friend bought one about a week after ai
did off the lot from the same dealer. He had lots of problems with his
also.

That's why car owners were removing all those emission kludges. I thought car manufacturers had the emission controls sorted out then along comes VW. Hell, VW is a descendant of the Nazi mobile. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle American Monster

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:09:09 AM UTC-5, Muggles wrote:
On 9/27/2015 2:16 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Muggles wrote:
On 9/26/2015 10:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/26/2015 09:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still
driving
a mini-van.

You just like the little flower vase. Admit it.

A flower vase? Where? I love flowers!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/au...h-anymore.html



No offense, but after VW discovered they'd built a chick car, they tried
to reinvent it.

Its like the Miata. The Miata is really a competent car but it got the
reputation of being a chick or gay ride and never overcame it.

What can I say, I'm a chick. (—•€¿—•)

Are you a motor vehicle operator or driver? Miata has grown little
bigger now.

Miata? They seem a big small to me.

--
Maggie

Um, wuts a "big small"? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Puzzled Monster

On 9/27/2015 3:13 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

.
.
How come, don't want to fiddle with your car? You can reproprogram ECU
for example. You modify any part of the car to your heart's content.
Today's cars are more electronics than mechanics. Like Volvo has more
than 20 microprocessors controlling the car one way or the other.
Engine, transmission, suspension, brakes, drive train, collision
avoidance system.... You name it.

I'm picking up my new car on Tuesday. The electronics are incredible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbjdmw8D9-Y
I have no plans to bail out the roof though.

On 9/27/2015 1:43 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/27/2015 3:13 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

How come, don't want to fiddle with your car? You can reproprogram ECU
for example. You modify any part of the car to your heart's content.
Today's cars are more electronics than mechanics. Like Volvo has more
than 20 microprocessors controlling the car one way or the other.
Engine, transmission, suspension, brakes, drive train, collision
avoidance system.... You name it.

I'm picking up my new car on Tuesday. The electronics are incredible.

Until they fail! : I dread having to deal with one of umpteen
little processors deciding to have a nervous breakdown at some
inopportune time. And, despite my education, training, tools, etc.
being HELPLESS to effect a repair, on my own! (short of "replacement")

Also, there seems to be pretty compelling evidence that these things
have been designed on the assumption of a "friendly" (not hostile) operating
environment. Sort of like the folks who design insulin pumps and never
consider that someone might want to maliciously *hack* a device which
is responsible for the short term health of a human -- just to prove they
*can*!

(ditto pace makers, etc.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbjdmw8D9-Y
I have no plans to bail out the roof though.

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 3:16:28 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
problems, "****ing off" the customer.


They did a good job at that on me. That was the third and last Crysler car
I bought. This car was especially bad in that it would not start. It was
funny. You could crank on it and run the battery all the way down. As it
was a manual transmission and I was living near the top of a hill, I could
get it rolling and pop the clutch and it would start. I had it towed in
about 3 times after running down the battery for them to repair and they
never got it repaired. It might have been the switch not making contact or
something in that start circuit.

I did not mention that when the car came in it had a bad spot on the paint.
The car was dark metalic blue and there was a roughly round spot about 6
inches in diameter that was light blue on the part of the trunk lid that
turns down. The dealer did repaint the trunk when I pointed that out. They
should have caught that before they called me to pick up the car, especially
as I bought it in a town about 20 miles away.

I once owned a Canadian built Cordoba and Detroit built Plymouth Fury. The cars shared a common chassis and mechanical parts but the Chrysler from the plant in Canada was put together better. I believe it had more to do with the caliber of the auto workers at the different plants than the vehicle design. After I sorted out any problems the cars had, they were reliable and relatively trouble free but nothing like a bullet proof 65 Dart. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Car Monster

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 3:59:28 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/27/2015 1:43 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/27/2015 3:13 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

How come, don't want to fiddle with your car? You can reproprogram ECU
for example. You modify any part of the car to your heart's content.
Today's cars are more electronics than mechanics. Like Volvo has more
than 20 microprocessors controlling the car one way or the other.
Engine, transmission, suspension, brakes, drive train, collision
avoidance system.... You name it.

I'm picking up my new car on Tuesday. The electronics are incredible.

Until they fail! : I dread having to deal with one of umpteen
little processors deciding to have a nervous breakdown at some
inopportune time. And, despite my education, training, tools, etc.
being HELPLESS to effect a repair, on my own! (short of "replacement")

Also, there seems to be pretty compelling evidence that these things
have been designed on the assumption of a "friendly" (not hostile) operating
environment. Sort of like the folks who design insulin pumps and never
consider that someone might want to maliciously *hack* a device which
is responsible for the short term health of a human -- just to prove they
*can*!

(ditto pace makers, etc.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbjdmw8D9-Y
I have no plans to bail out the roof though.

Well hell, the only vehicles left running after the coming EMP attack will be diesels with the simple mechanical fuel delivery and engine controls. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle EMP Monster

On 9/27/2015 2:15 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

Well hell, the only vehicles left running after the coming EMP attack will
be diesels with the simple mechanical fuel delivery and engine controls.

I don;t worry about an EMP -- I suspect I will have more pressing
concerns in that case than worrying about a vehicle!

The problem with the architecture of many car control systems is
they don't physically (or even logically) partition subsystems
so that a compromise of one can't compromise the others!

E.g., most "hacks" access the car's control infrastructure
through the entertainment/navigation systems -- things that
should have no reason for *talking* to the brakes, engine
controls, steering, etc. Yet, because this wasn't accurately
considered as a potential attack surface during the design,
there are no/few precautions to protect against such attacks
after the fact.

This is the sort of naive thinking (full of unspoken ASSUMPTIONS)
that leads to big-time problems down the road.

By way of a different, though similar, example, most businesses
employ firewalls to "keep intruders out". They block INBOUND
connections to the machines *inside* their firewall.

But, they ignore the fact that a machine *inside* the firewall
can (typically) initiate a connection to damn near any other
machine *outside* the firewall. And, once that connection is
(intentionally) established -- by malware -- the inside machine
is now *past* the firewall yet under the control of some outside
entity.

Ooops!

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 13:30:10 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 7:56:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 26 Sep 2015 21:39:53 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 09/26/2015 01:26 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Tourag and Passat have TDI models.

I don't have the numbers handy but I believe those are also a minor
slice of VWs American market.
Siesel VWs were 40% of North American sales in a recent month, from
what I read somewhere recently.

Those letters are right next to each other. *snicker* ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Spelling Monster
OK I'll try again, Wiesel VWs were about 40% of the North American
market. (Those 2 letters are right next to each other too --- Darn
that "fat finger syndrome" AND this old keyboard that has most of the
letters pretty well worn off

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 13:42:41 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:09:09 AM UTC-5, Muggles wrote:
On 9/27/2015 2:16 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Muggles wrote:
On 9/26/2015 10:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/26/2015 09:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still
driving
a mini-van.

You just like the little flower vase. Admit it.

A flower vase? Where? I love flowers!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/au...h-anymore.html



No offense, but after VW discovered they'd built a chick car, they tried
to reinvent it.

Its like the Miata. The Miata is really a competent car but it got the
reputation of being a chick or gay ride and never overcame it.

What can I say, I'm a chick. (???)

Are you a motor vehicle operator or driver? Miata has grown little
bigger now.

Miata? They seem a big small to me.

--
Maggie

Um, wuts a "big small"? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Puzzled Monster
The G and T are next to each other too - seems to be a theme here!!!

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:05:16 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 3:16:28 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
problems, "****ing off" the customer.


They did a good job at that on me. That was the third and last Crysler car
I bought. This car was especially bad in that it would not start. It was
funny. You could crank on it and run the battery all the way down. As it
was a manual transmission and I was living near the top of a hill, I could
get it rolling and pop the clutch and it would start. I had it towed in
about 3 times after running down the battery for them to repair and they
never got it repaired. It might have been the switch not making contact or
something in that start circuit.

I did not mention that when the car came in it had a bad spot on the paint.
The car was dark metalic blue and there was a roughly round spot about 6
inches in diameter that was light blue on the part of the trunk lid that
turns down. The dealer did repaint the trunk when I pointed that out. They
should have caught that before they called me to pick up the car, especially
as I bought it in a town about 20 miles away.

I once owned a Canadian built Cordoba and Detroit built Plymouth Fury. The cars shared a common chassis and mechanical parts but the Chrysler from the plant in Canada was put together better. I believe it had more to do with the caliber of the auto workers at the different plants than the vehicle design. After I sorted out any problems the cars had, they were reliable and relatively trouble free but nothing like a bullet proof 65 Dart. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Car Monster
Canada DOES build some of the best quality cars in the world. And
have for years. Will be interesting to see how next year's camaros
compare - - - -
We built the best Crown Vics, and all of Chrysler's rear drive
vehicles for many years come from "just down the road" in Bramalea
Ontario.

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:15:27 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 3:59:28 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/27/2015 1:43 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/27/2015 3:13 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

How come, don't want to fiddle with your car? You can reproprogram ECU
for example. You modify any part of the car to your heart's content.
Today's cars are more electronics than mechanics. Like Volvo has more
than 20 microprocessors controlling the car one way or the other.
Engine, transmission, suspension, brakes, drive train, collision
avoidance system.... You name it.

I'm picking up my new car on Tuesday. The electronics are incredible.

Until they fail! : I dread having to deal with one of umpteen
little processors deciding to have a nervous breakdown at some
inopportune time. And, despite my education, training, tools, etc.
being HELPLESS to effect a repair, on my own! (short of "replacement")

Also, there seems to be pretty compelling evidence that these things
have been designed on the assumption of a "friendly" (not hostile) operating
environment. Sort of like the folks who design insulin pumps and never
consider that someone might want to maliciously *hack* a device which
is responsible for the short term health of a human -- just to prove they
*can*!

(ditto pace makers, etc.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbjdmw8D9-Y
I have no plans to bail out the roof though.

Well hell, the only vehicles left running after the coming EMP attack will be diesels with the simple mechanical fuel delivery and engine controls. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle EMP Monster
And a hand cranked starter, just to be safe.

On 09/26/2015 02:55 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

VW was simply doing what many people who support what they fondly
imagine to be "the free enterprise system" and who oppose government
regulation say corporations are obligated to do: make as much money for
their shareholders as possible.

I'd much rather have the free enterprise system
selling me what I want (fuel mileage and performance)
rather than government telling me what to do.

So Joe Wagenkaeufer is supposed to be able to determine for himself the
level of air pollution a modern car will produce? Obviously he can't
rely on any figures the manufacturer publishes.

Perce

On 09/27/2015 08:00 PM, Neill Massello wrote:

Miata has grown little bigger now.

They always do. Twenty years ago, the Toyota RAV4 was a fairly compact
jeep-like vehicle. Now, it looks like it's up in the mid-size SUV
category.

The first Toyota Corolla I saw was a tiny car with only about a 1-liter
engine.

Perce

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 4:26:33 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/27/2015 2:15 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

Well hell, the only vehicles left running after the coming EMP attack will
be diesels with the simple mechanical fuel delivery and engine controls..

I don;t worry about an EMP -- I suspect I will have more pressing
concerns in that case than worrying about a vehicle!

The problem with the architecture of many car control systems is
they don't physically (or even logically) partition subsystems
so that a compromise of one can't compromise the others!

E.g., most "hacks" access the car's control infrastructure
through the entertainment/navigation systems -- things that
should have no reason for *talking* to the brakes, engine
controls, steering, etc. Yet, because this wasn't accurately
considered as a potential attack surface during the design,
there are no/few precautions to protect against such attacks
after the fact.

This is the sort of naive thinking (full of unspoken ASSUMPTIONS)
that leads to big-time problems down the road.

By way of a different, though similar, example, most businesses
employ firewalls to "keep intruders out". They block INBOUND
connections to the machines *inside* their firewall.

But, they ignore the fact that a machine *inside* the firewall
can (typically) initiate a connection to damn near any other
machine *outside* the firewall. And, once that connection is
(intentionally) established -- by malware -- the inside machine
is now *past* the firewall yet under the control of some outside
entity.

Ooops!

I must state that I'm not a conspiracy nut, just a regular nut. I've noticed a pattern over the years of the intrusion of technology into every aspect of the lives of people. People are willingly giving up privacy and control of their lives to new technology which in turn can allow government to control people. Do as you're told or government will turn off your car, travel, ID, money, computer, phone, housing, utilities, benefits, health care and anything else a government gets its hooks into. Basically, people are falling all over themselves to give the government the ability to take away their rights, freedom and liberty at the push of a button. If a government can easily take something from you, a run of the mill criminal can do the same.. I'm sure others have noticed a pattern of government using new technology to exert control over the lives of a citizenry who're are completely oblivious to it. Geez! o_O

[8~{} Uncle Dissident Monster

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 5:44:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:05:16 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 3:16:28 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
problems, "****ing off" the customer.


They did a good job at that on me. That was the third and last Crysler car
I bought. This car was especially bad in that it would not start. It was
funny. You could crank on it and run the battery all the way down. As it
was a manual transmission and I was living near the top of a hill, I could
get it rolling and pop the clutch and it would start. I had it towed in
about 3 times after running down the battery for them to repair and they
never got it repaired. It might have been the switch not making contact or
something in that start circuit.

I did not mention that when the car came in it had a bad spot on the paint.
The car was dark metalic blue and there was a roughly round spot about 6
inches in diameter that was light blue on the part of the trunk lid that
turns down. The dealer did repaint the trunk when I pointed that out. They
should have caught that before they called me to pick up the car, especially
as I bought it in a town about 20 miles away.

I once owned a Canadian built Cordoba and Detroit built Plymouth Fury. The cars shared a common chassis and mechanical parts but the Chrysler from the plant in Canada was put together better. I believe it had more to do with the caliber of the auto workers at the different plants than the vehicle design. After I sorted out any problems the cars had, they were reliable and relatively trouble free but nothing like a bullet proof 65 Dart. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Car Monster
Canada DOES build some of the best quality cars in the world. And
have for years. Will be interesting to see how next year's camaros
compare - - - -
We built the best Crown Vics, and all of Chrysler's rear drive
vehicles for many years come from "just down the road" in Bramalea
Ontario.

In The U.S we have "Affirmative Action" which means a person is put into a job or position of power and responsibility for reasons other than the content of their character. The best example is our President. In Great Britain it's called "Positive Discrimination" which is a much more accurate description. Is their anything like that in Canada or are important jobs done by those with the most experience, skill and ability to accomplish the task? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

Uncle Monster wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 5:44:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:05:16 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 3:16:28 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
problems, "****ing off" the customer.


They did a good job at that on me. That was the third and last Crysler car
I bought. This car was especially bad in that it would not start. It was
funny. You could crank on it and run the battery all the way down. As it
was a manual transmission and I was living near the top of a hill, I could
get it rolling and pop the clutch and it would start. I had it towed in
about 3 times after running down the battery for them to repair and they
never got it repaired. It might have been the switch not making contact or
something in that start circuit.

I did not mention that when the car came in it had a bad spot on the paint.
The car was dark metalic blue and there was a roughly round spot about 6
inches in diameter that was light blue on the part of the trunk lid that
turns down. The dealer did repaint the trunk when I pointed that out. They
should have caught that before they called me to pick up the car, especially
as I bought it in a town about 20 miles away.

I once owned a Canadian built Cordoba and Detroit built Plymouth Fury. The cars shared a common chassis and mechanical parts but the Chrysler from the plant in Canada was put together better. I believe it had more to do with the caliber of the auto workers at the different plants than the vehicle design. After I sorted out any problems the cars had, they were reliable and relatively trouble free but nothing like a bullet proof 65 Dart. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Car Monster
Canada DOES build some of the best quality cars in the world. And
have for years. Will be interesting to see how next year's camaros
compare - - - -
We built the best Crown Vics, and all of Chrysler's rear drive
vehicles for many years come from "just down the road" in Bramalea
Ontario. And Buicks, mini vans. I don't know why , when I was working
I either chose company car every 3 years, either GM or Ford made. After
retiring I always drove Acura.(I believe it is assembled in Ontario)

In The U.S we have "Affirmative Action" which means a person is put into a job or position of power and responsibility for reasons other than the content of their character. The best example is our President. In Great Britain it's called "Positive Discrimination" which is a much more accurate description. Is their anything like that in Canada or are important jobs done by those with the most experience, skill and ability to accomplish the task? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

On 9/27/2015 7:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 4:26:33 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/27/2015 2:15 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

Well hell, the only vehicles left running after the coming EMP attack
will be diesels with the simple mechanical fuel delivery and engine
controls..

I don;t worry about an EMP -- I suspect I will have more pressing concerns
in that case than worrying about a vehicle!

The problem with the architecture of many car control systems is they
don't physically (or even logically) partition subsystems so that a
compromise of one can't compromise the others!

E.g., most "hacks" access the car's control infrastructure through the
entertainment/navigation systems -- things that should have no reason for
*talking* to the brakes, engine controls, steering, etc. Yet, because
this wasn't accurately considered as a potential attack surface during the
design, there are no/few precautions to protect against such attacks after
the fact.

This is the sort of naive thinking (full of unspoken ASSUMPTIONS) that
leads to big-time problems down the road.

By way of a different, though similar, example, most businesses employ
firewalls to "keep intruders out". They block INBOUND connections to the
machines *inside* their firewall.

But, they ignore the fact that a machine *inside* the firewall can
(typically) initiate a connection to damn near any other machine *outside*
the firewall. And, once that connection is (intentionally) established --
by malware -- the inside machine is now *past* the firewall yet under the
control of some outside entity.

Ooops!

I must state that I'm not a conspiracy nut, just a regular nut. I've noticed
a pattern over the years of the intrusion of technology into every aspect of
the lives of people. People are willingly giving up privacy and control of
their lives to new technology which in turn can allow government to control
people. Do as you're told or government will turn off your car, travel, ID,
money, computer, phone, housing, utilities, benefits, health care and
anything else a government gets its hooks into.

People are primarily turning over control to *corporations*. Those folks
have LESS constraints on what they can do with that than the gummit. And,
they represent convenient "one stop shopping" for the spooks to go
poking around with a secret writ -- so you (ALL!) have no idea that a
search is even under way!

Basically, people are
falling all over themselves to give the government the ability to take away
their rights, freedom and liberty at the push of a button.

Blame much of this on the Patriot Act: "Oooo! Protect me from the bad guys!"

If a government
can easily take something from you, a run of the mill criminal can do the
same.. I'm sure others have noticed a pattern of government using new
technology to exert control over the lives of a citizenry who're are
completely oblivious to it. Geez! o_O

The problem is more fundamental than conspiracies.

With increasing levels of technology, more things are economically
feasible. E.g., when the PSTN was largely an analog device, a
wiretap required physical access to the wires servicing the individual
in question. Once the PSTN went digital, that "voice" is now just
so many "bits" on a virtual circuit. Additional virtual circuits
can be created at will -- no "wire" involved. So, calls from any
number of "taps" can be routed to anyone, anywhere for free.

Electronic funds transfers make it easy for folks to observe where
monies are being moved. Previously, you had to watch a "paper
instrument" (treasury notes, cashier's checks, etc.) make a
physical journey to know the actual recipient.

When "communications" were written on sheafs of paper and
encapsulated in envelopes that were physically transfered
from sender to recipient, you had to physically intercept those
transfers to see what was being said. And, be aware of EVERY
means by which those transfers could take place (USPS, FedEx,
courier, etc.). With email, they're just bits that can
clandestinely be copied and routed to alternative locations.
No need to examine an envelope to see if it has been tampered with!

When a mechanical linkage connected the gas peddle to the
throttle, you had to exert physical force on that linkage,
at some point, in order to influence the vehicles speed
(indirectly). When the accelerator is just a position *sensor*
that feeds "data" to a computer, then anything that can spoof that
data can pretend to be the accelerator.

The folks making these design decisions are also blissfully
ignorant/unconcerned with these possibilities -- or their consequences!
That's where the vulnerability creeps in.

On 9/27/2015 3:42 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:09:09 AM UTC-5, Muggles wrote:
On 9/27/2015 2:16 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Muggles wrote:
On 9/26/2015 10:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/26/2015 09:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still
driving
a mini-van.

You just like the little flower vase. Admit it.

A flower vase? Where? I love flowers!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/au...h-anymore.html



No offense, but after VW discovered they'd built a chick car, they tried
to reinvent it.

Its like the Miata. The Miata is really a competent car but it got the
reputation of being a chick or gay ride and never overcame it.

What can I say, I'm a chick. (—•€¿—•)

Are you a motor vehicle operator or driver? Miata has grown little
bigger now.

Miata? They seem a big small to me.

--
Maggie

Um, wuts a "big small"? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Puzzled Monster


typo ... it should read a "bit small". lol

--
Maggie

On 09/27/2015 10:09 AM, Muggles wrote:
Miata? They seem a big small to me.

Like Elvis and the Thunderbird, they've been packing on the pounds.

On 09/27/2015 10:09 AM, Muggles wrote:
Miata? They seem a big small to me.

When the Fiero first came out, I went to look at one. The saleman who
had sold me a Firebird a couple of years before yelled across the
showroom 'They don't make that in your size'.

On 09/27/2015 06:01 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
I test drove a 340 Duster back in the early 1970's. OMG it was quick. ^_^

Mom always was the lead foot in the family.

On 09/27/2015 06:14 AM, Jack wrote:
You can tell a lot by the vehicle someone drives.
There's a guy at work, he's about 4'-2" and drives a new Dodge Ram 3500.
I think he's a cross-dresser.

We have quite a few Hmong in this area and they favor big pickups. And
big rifles. I wouldn't mess with them, but it is sort of amusing
watching them mounting up.

I go the other way. Back in the day people would see me climb out of my
Sprite and wonder where it all fit. Actually, I found the Sprite has a
lot more leg room than a Corvette.

On 09/27/2015 06:56 AM, wrote:
Siesel VWs were 40% of North American sales in a recent month, from
what I read somewhere recently.

I can't find a current article easily but

http://www.dieselforum.org/news/u-s-...arket-is-up-4-

“While diesel cars and pickup trucks make up only three percent of the
overall U.S. vehicle market, most analysts predict continued growth in
the U.S., with many believing the diesel market will double by 2018.”

This is more current:

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/volkswa...r-hybrid-cars/

"It’s a small market—about 3 percent of the total US passenger vehicle
fleet, about 7-8 million cars—but one VW dominates. In 2013, it reported
it accounted for more than 70 percent of “clean diesel” passenger
vehicle sales. "

Extrapolating, the 40% figure may be right.

On 09/27/2015 06:58 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 00:55:02 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 09/26/2015 10:03 PM, Muggles wrote:
A flower vase? Where? I love flowers!

You never saw those in the New Beetle? Not the new Beetle; they dropped
the flowers in 2012. Little bud vase on the dashboard, sort of like a
hearse. Sometimes the German mind goes off the rails. I mean what sort
of manly man is going to drive a car with a damn sprig of pansies?
You mean the shot glass?


Kind of puny shot glass... Maybe for a chick... (ducking)

On 09/27/2015 10:07 AM, Muggles wrote:
Can't a Beetle be reliable and safe?

The reliability ratings haven't been that great but the ratings
themselves can be unreliable. 'The bud vase is crooked' gets the same
weight as 'the transmission dropped out on the pavement.' The Golf is
the same platform and has better ratings leading some to suggest New
Beetle drivers are pickier.

On 9/27/2015 3:23 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/27/2015 12:07 PM, Muggles wrote:


Can't a Beetle be reliable and safe?


Beetle does have a good safety rating. Can't speak for its reliability,
but there are no really bad cars these days. Some better than others,
all better than cars made years ago.

That's good to hear about the safety rating.

--
Maggie