On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:45:51 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
wrote:

stuff snipped

I never saw FCC certifications on anything but parts that were clearly
used
for RF transmission or attachment to the POTS lines.


Used to be FCC or DOC on all computer compnents. I've got CD drives
with FCC certs on them
I haven't built a clone in almost 10 years, and it.s been 26 years
since I was in the computer "manufacturing" business.

It's been a while for me too. I switched to all laptops because a) the
power savings were substantial and b) the laptops are all the same
configuration meaning I can take a Ghost backup from a dead laptop and
easily reload it onto another machine. When I was using clones, each was
subtly different from the other making restores to anything but the drive
the backup was made on would fail.

I'll be going through all my old XT/AT parts to trash them this week so I
will be able to review which items have FCC certs. I would suspect that
hard drives, CDs and other items from name manufacturers have FCC IDs but I
would be surprised if I see their mark on anything else.
I buy desktops 25 at a time for the application where I have a lot
configured the same (production floor), and 7 to 9 at a time for the
other office, where we are aiming to replace all computers on a
rotating 4 year schedule. The last 3 batches have been close enough to
identical that an image from one works on the next. Been using high
end Acers (Veriton M46 series - 4618, 4620, and 4630 over the last 3
or 4 cycles) Also using the same Acers for office machines at the
factory, replacing a mixed bag of clones, Dell and MDG crap. On the
plant floor we are using refurbed Lenovos.

I've had 3 motherboard failures in the last batch of Acers at the
plant - 4 hard drives over the last 3 years or so at the insurance
office. Other than that the Acers have been VERY good.

The first batch of Lenovos, with XP Pro, purchaced at 3 years of age 4
years ago, have been failing at an accellerated rate the last 6 months
or so (Old P4s) so we just got 25 matching Core 2 Duo machines on
Win7Pro. The first batch replaced MAI terminals - mostly P4s but a
handfull of Core 2 machines as well. The Core 2 machines have been
rock solid - the P4 machines are suffering from swollen electrolytic
capacitors - Lenovo got hit with the fake electrolyte "flu" like so
many others - but the problem was cured before the Core 2 machines.
came on line.

Deploying the 25 machines will keep me busy for a few weeks of Tuesday
and Thursday afternoons - - - - -. I've got the software all installed
- set up one machine then cloned the other 24 - so it will just be
setting up machine names, configuring the user, and getting them onto
the network.

On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:49:52 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message

stuff snipped

IIRC, the ultimate test of a PC's compatibility was:

"Can it run flight simulator?"
We has 20Mhz PCs using Harris chips - and we built 12mhz ATs whenIBM
was doing good to get 8 - and soon had 24s running stable, and selling
for less than "Big Blue" sold their 8.
We also had CDRom long before IBM did - as well as providing larger
hard drives. Lots of features that pushed "big Blue" ahead. The Tier 2
mfgs were also technically "clones" - including AST, Packard Bell,
Compaq, HP, Sanyo, etc.

All Trillium clones passed ALL compatability tests.

That's a good point. Eventually there were lots of programs like MemTest
and SANDRA that could give you a pretty good idea of how compatible a clone
was likely to be. We switched from IBM to Compaq when Compaq pulled ahead
in the MHz race. Compaq machines were built like tanks. Not anymore. )-:
Thank Carly for that.
When Compaq bought Packard Bell their quality took a big hit that
they never fully rebounded from - and when HP bough Compaq, the same
thing happened to HP. Their high end stuff may still be pretty
decent, but they've "watered down the brand" with all their consumer
grade junk.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

You know the story about Zenith laptops during desert storm 1?

That the soldiers used them as sandbags?

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
wrote:

stuff snipped

I never saw FCC certifications on anything but parts that were clearly
used
for RF transmission or attachment to the POTS lines.


Used to be FCC or DOC on all computer compnents. I've got CD drives
with FCC certs on them
I haven't built a clone in almost 10 years, and it.s been 26 years
since I was in the computer "manufacturing" business.

It's been a while for me too. I switched to all laptops because a) the
power savings were substantial and b) the laptops are all the same
configuration meaning I can take a Ghost backup from a dead laptop and
easily reload it onto another machine. When I was using clones, each was
subtly different from the other making restores to anything but the drive
the backup was made on would fail.

I'll be going through all my old XT/AT parts to trash them this week so I
will be able to review which items have FCC certs. I would suspect that
hard drives, CDs and other items from name manufacturers have FCC IDs but I
would be surprised if I see their mark on anything else.

Any one worked on mainframes like super computers? PCs and Windows is
not all. Disappointed. Never worked on Hexadecimal ALU, stuffs like
that? hard coax data transmission(not optical fiber). Computer
manufacturing? Really? More likely it was assembly plant.

On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:55:44 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
wrote:

stuff snipped

I never saw FCC certifications on anything but parts that were clearly
used
for RF transmission or attachment to the POTS lines.


Used to be FCC or DOC on all computer compnents. I've got CD drives
with FCC certs on them
I haven't built a clone in almost 10 years, and it.s been 26 years
since I was in the computer "manufacturing" business.

It's been a while for me too. I switched to all laptops because a) the
power savings were substantial and b) the laptops are all the same
configuration meaning I can take a Ghost backup from a dead laptop and
easily reload it onto another machine. When I was using clones, each was
subtly different from the other making restores to anything but the drive
the backup was made on would fail.

I'll be going through all my old XT/AT parts to trash them this week so I
will be able to review which items have FCC certs. I would suspect that
hard drives, CDs and other items from name manufacturers have FCC IDs but I
would be surprised if I see their mark on anything else.

Any one worked on mainframes like super computers? PCs and Windows is
not all. Disappointed. Never worked on Hexadecimal ALU, stuffs like
that? hard coax data transmission(not optical fiber). Computer
manufacturing? Really? More likely it was assembly plant.
Virtually all "computer manufacturers" are only assembly plants
today. We actually had certain printed circuit boards designed and
manufactured to our exclusive specs, as well as some of our cases -
and in the early years - the "good years", consistancy was very good.

After the beancounters took over it was just a clone assembly shop and
I was soon gone.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Micros...ut-WordPerfect

We just called it "WORD IMPERFECT" and "DATA IMPERFECT" was even
worse!!!

We called them Word and Data DEFECT. At the precise time when competition
entered the market, they chose to get stupid. Not good.

After the Lotus copy debacle the IT folks decided that anyone who wanted to
run CP software had to product written justification and while some did,
most did not. One very bad experience with CP made a lot of IT managers
very wary of such software. It's an example of punishing the wrong people
(the legit end users) for the crimes of others (thieves). Worse, still,
there wasn't one CP program I knew of that couldn't be breached, often by
running a small program that stayed in memory that convinced the program the
original CD was in the player.

The death of WordStar is an even more fascinating story and a cautionary
tale that execs and "vulture" capitalists should not treat programmers as
fungible dirt.

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/whatever-...to-wordstar-2/

Dvorak brings up an important point:

During this era piracy sold software and created market share. People
would use a bootleg copy of Wordstar and eventually buy a copy. Wordstar may
have been the most pirated software in the world, which in many ways
accounted for its success. (Software companies don't like to admit to this
as a possibility.)

Piracy is a double-edged sword. In the beginning, the fact that you've got
something *worthy* of pirating brings notice to your product. Notice =
publicity and publicity costs money, whether it's paying a PR firm or having
users pass around a copy of your program to someone who likes it enough to
buy a legit copy. (I confess I've done that several times when I was much,
much poorer.)

RIAA noticed that the harder they cracked down on music piracy, the more
music sales plummeted. To their credit, they eventually DID figure it out.
They finally pulled back on their draconian "sue indigent grandmothers for
(unknowingly) sharing music" policy. They were determined to maintain the
"like one song, pay for 10" model of the CD but the failed and the pressure
that piracy brought upon them was the basic cause. The flood of MP3 players
that hit the market at the same time didn't hurt, either. (-; It ended up
that more than a few parents banned their kids from having music of ANY kind
on their PCs. Surely NOT the way to boost music sales.

I've read any number of articles that say Sony, who invented the Walkman,
lost the portable music war because of their insistence on using a copy
protection scheme just for Sony players. Their music division and their
portable electronics division were at constant war over copy protection and
in the end the big loser was the Sony empire.

http://archive.wired.com/wired/archi...2/sony_pr.html

Ando wants nothing less than for Sony to reinvent itself. But that will
never happen as long as the company is frozen by its fear of piracy. Sony's
digital Walkman device is a good example. Where the iPod simply lets you
sync its contents with the music collection on your personal computer,
Walkman users are hamstrung by laborious "check-in/check-out" procedures
designed to block illicit file-sharing. And a Walkman with a hard drive? Not
likely, since Sony's copy-protection mechanisms don't allow music to be
transferred from one hard drive to another - not an issue with the iPod. "We
do not have any plans for such a product," says Kimura, the smile fading.
"But we are studying it."

So what's the point of copy protection if it's the first step on the path to
irrelevance? People inclined to steal will always still, people not so
inclined will not. No number of anti-piracy FBI scare warnings at the
beginning of every DVD is going to change their mind. In fact, the constant
lecturing may **** people off enough that they decide it's time to get DVD
Decrypter or DVD Shrink.

--
Bobby G.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 10/5/2015 7:14 PM, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

I was building 3D CAD models some 20+ years ago (AutoCAD v11 w/ AME).
I can recall having a problem with the package (some $3K as an *upgrade*)
and having a fix in my hands within days.

If I had a similar problem with a FOSS product *today*, it would probably
be weeks for someone to "take an interest" in my particular problem,
devote some time researching it and then days or weeks for someone
to decide it was worth *fixing*!

That's a pretty broad brush you're tarring all FOSS creators with. I don't
accept it. I've worked with a number of Home Automation software publishers
who have literally fallen all over themselves to fix a bug or issue that I
identified and do it very quickly. If they couldn't fix it right away
because of some complex dependencies elsewhere in the code, they'd certainly
file it away in their "we'll get to it at the next major build."

Interestingly enough, when I asked for features that would benefit mostly me
and not all the other users, I always got the "we'll see" which is
parent-speak for a deferred "no." "Can I have a BB gun for Christmas?"
"We'll see."

Meanwhile, the clock is ticking on *my* project. What do I tell *my*
client? "The FREE software that I'm using doesn't work correctly.
I'm hoping someone will step up and offer me a solution sometime soon.
I realize *you* have market constraints that are pressuring you for a
product offering but there's nothing *I* can do to speed things up..."

If you told me that, as the guy who hired you, I would simply say "It's
unfortunate that you used tools that were unsuitable for the task. Didn't
you evaluate them fully before starting?" Whose fault is it then? The poor
FOSS creator who's doing it as a labor of love or the guy trying to save a
buck by using FOSS on a paying project?

I rarely bring freeware onto a paying project but if I do, I make sure it's
functioning and that it can be properly licensed by the end user.

I've never had an issue with IrfanView, VLC, HexEdit, WinZip, PKModem (in
the very old days) and so many more products that I have just the opposite
view of FOSS than you have. What FOSS program burned you so badly that
you're willing to classify them all as drek?

--
Bobby G.

"Roger Blake" wrote in message
...
On 2015-10-06, Don Y wrote:
aggressively. Why did MSWord bury WordPerfect? Was it because
WP had some onerous licensing terms/technology?

My recollection is that it was because the initial releases of
Word Perfect for Windows were worse than atrocious.

That's what I recall.

Maybe for "plain jane" applications (office/productivity suites).
But, have you compared the features and quality of those "modern"
FOSS offerings with *paid* offerings from 20 years past?

FOSS does everything that I need, have not used commercial software
for many years.

And it does for me, too, although I do use a lot of commercial software as
well. Whatever does the job well at the lowest cost to me. I am sure most
programmers have the same sort of utility CD/DVD that I have containing all
the FOSS that's been of use - WireShark, Hexedit, VNC, VLC, WinZip, SANDRA,
MemTest and many, many more.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:45:51 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
wrote:

stuff snipped

I never saw FCC certifications on anything but parts that were clearly
used
for RF transmission or attachment to the POTS lines.


Used to be FCC or DOC on all computer compnents. I've got CD drives
with FCC certs on them
I haven't built a clone in almost 10 years, and it.s been 26 years
since I was in the computer "manufacturing" business.

It's been a while for me too. I switched to all laptops because a) the
power savings were substantial and b) the laptops are all the same
configuration meaning I can take a Ghost backup from a dead laptop and
easily reload it onto another machine. When I was using clones, each was
subtly different from the other making restores to anything but the drive
the backup was made on would fail.

I'll be going through all my old XT/AT parts to trash them this week so I
will be able to review which items have FCC certs. I would suspect that
hard drives, CDs and other items from name manufacturers have FCC IDs but
I
would be surprised if I see their mark on anything else.
I buy desktops 25 at a time for the application where I have a lot
configured the same (production floor), and 7 to 9 at a time for the
other office, where we are aiming to replace all computers on a
rotating 4 year schedule. The last 3 batches have been close enough to
identical that an image from one works on the next.

I didn't realize until I standardized on one particular machine (Fujitsu
tablets) how remarkably convenient it is to be able to take an image from
one machine and load it onto another - without getting the BSOD.

Been using high
end Acers (Veriton M46 series - 4618, 4620, and 4630 over the last 3
or 4 cycles) Also using the same Acers for office machines at the
factory, replacing a mixed bag of clones, Dell and MDG crap. On the
plant floor we are using refurbed Lenovos.

I'm user some ACER stuff now, and so far, so good.

I've had 3 motherboard failures in the last batch of Acers at the
plant - 4 hard drives over the last 3 years or so at the insurance
office. Other than that the Acers have been VERY good.

I just had my first crapped out laptop HD and it failed without giving any
warning. My machines see very light use so it's no wonder they've lasted 15
years. They've been so reliable that I haven't been backing up as regularly
as I used to. That's because a good HD crash every now and then reminds you
that they're just machines and as such, prone to failure at some point.

The first batch of Lenovos, with XP Pro, purchaced at 3 years of age 4
years ago, have been failing at an accellerated rate the last 6 months
or so (Old P4s) so we just got 25 matching Core 2 Duo machines on
Win7Pro. The first batch replaced MAI terminals - mostly P4s but a
handfull of Core 2 machines as well. The Core 2 machines have been
rock solid - the P4 machines are suffering from swollen electrolytic
capacitors - Lenovo got hit with the fake electrolyte "flu" like so
many others - but the problem was cured before the Core 2 machines.
came on line.

I have a lot of gear in the corner of the basement sitting on shelf waiting
for me to open them up and look for bad caps. The TVs followed the
well-known pattern of taking longer and longer to turn on until one day,
they wouldn't. It's such a problem with stuff manufactured during the "flu"
that there are eBay sellers who assemble kits of HQ caps for various TV
models.

Deploying the 25 machines will keep me busy for a few weeks of Tuesday
and Thursday afternoons - - - - -. I've got the software all installed
- set up one machine then cloned the other 24 - so it will just be
setting up machine names, configuring the user, and getting them onto
the network.

The beauty of identical machines. As a clone builder only for myself, I
think I only have two identical machines that can accept each other's image
files. Then I got religion and decided uniformity was a big asset. I seem
to remember someone selling cloning machines that would take a list of user
IDs, machine network names, etc. and use them to alter each clone so that it
was ready to boot.

--
Bobby G.

"rbowman" wrote in message
On 10/10/2015 06:02 PM, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

I still hit the library regularly to pick up mind rot but I haven't done
any serious researching there in years unless I was bumming the wifi.

I take that back. Last week I was looking for a book by Celine. I was
having a senior moment and couldn't come up with a first name. A search
of the catalog turned up about 40 pages of Celine Dion who I was pretty
sure wasn't who I was looking for. So I wandered over to the reference
section and eventually found an encyclopedia of literature that soon
informed me I was looking for Louis-Ferdinand, the pen name of Louis
Destouches. Back to the catalog search. No Louis-Ferdinand in the entire
system so I bought the damn thing from Amazon. They only had the one I
wanted in paperback, not Kindle, so I had to wait two days for it.

Reminds me of a few years ago if you ran a search for "soprano" you'd get
Tony and not any singers.

It's not only looking things up, it's getting things. I try to buy local
but this town isn't a huge market and the merchants can't afford to have
every odd gadget in stock.

Even in places with lots of brick and mortar stores AND things in stock I
still prefer Amazon for lots of reasons. I've never had anyone rear-end me
on the way to the mailbox to pick up a package from Amazon but it did happen
in the Home Depot parking lot. Let UPS take the risk.

I've even had people tell me 'No we don't
have so and so but we can order it. Or you probably can use your
computer just as well as we can.'

Kinda sad, in a way. They know their days are probably numbered. What I
have found is that local merchants see slowing sales and then reduce the
inventory they are holding. That's a classic death spiral.

In one case, I was trying to buy a car
radio for a new model. They couldn't come up with a dash kit even after
I gave them the part number. Back to Amazon, and I had the dash kit and
radio in a couple of days. Then there was the web site with photos and
detailed instructions on how to rip apart a Toyota dash to install the
radio.

I always look at the ratings and read them in detail (lots of idiots who
give it 5 stars and then write "I haven't actually used the product yet."
sigh

However, I see some bad consequences for all this in the not-to-distant
future. Who could really be a competitor to Amazon? Wal-mart is faced with
the dilemma of their on-line business cannibalizing their retail stores so
they treat on-line sales as a poor relation. Other big general-item
merchants have died like flies. What happens when only Amazon remains?

Yet those concerns haven't stopped me from running up quite a tab there.
(-: Now they offer same-day delivery on many items. What's not to like?

--
Bobby G.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 10/10/2015 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 10/10/2015 06:02 PM, Robert Green wrote:
I really can't remember the world before Google and the Internet.
Where did
we look things up? I know I used to go to the library at least once a
week
before the Internet and I haven't been back in years.

I still hit the library regularly to pick up mind rot but I haven't done
any
serious researching there in years unless I was bumming the wifi.

I use the public library:
- as a source for "free" rental DVD's

Got Netflix. Comes right to my door. Gave up premium cable for it and
don't miss it.

(we don't watch broadcast/CATV; just "movies" or "series" off DVD)

Personal choice? Bad reception? Parsimonious?

- reference city/county data
(researching property taxes, etc.)

Lots of jurisdictions (like mine) have that on line. I usually go to the
county courthouse to get the real scoop on a property or neighborhood.

- reference texts available via ILL

Got a professional librarian friend who gets me what I need from
Interlibrary Loans in exhange for having her own private help desk (me).

(some titles: _Pai Gow Poker_, _

About 530,000 results from Google

From text to speech: The MITalk System_

Date Published: May 1987 - I find technical info from that long ago to be
mostly curiosities and not particular useful in daily ops. That was even a
problem for me when I had access to the UM's engineering library. Lots of
great stuff but much of it woefully out of date.

- research papers usually only available through "subscription" services
("A Simple Method of Computing the Input Quantization and
Multiplication
Roundoff Errors in a Digital Filter")

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login...mber%3D1162595
Date of publication 1974 - again, having a librarian friend is a great asset
if I want something from a sub. journal that the university has access to.

- scant few titles that I'd never want to have to keep on my own shelves
(we've been actively ridding ourselves of books/paper for the past 20
years -- let the *library* keep a copy of the latest NEC, CRC, etc.)

If I need to know something from the NEC it's usually NOT when the library's
open and more importantly, I can get some pretty good info from the NEC
codemeisters here in AHR.

But I get your point. For some people the library still has value - just
not for me.

--
Bobby G.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped
Any one worked on mainframes like super computers?

Haven't touched a mainframe since 19 -seventy something and then I really
only fed it stacks of punch cards. Having punch card experience makes you
an old fogey these days.

I *nearly* went to work for Sperry helping to design a traveler system for
NASA parts. It was shortly after the "O" ring failure and NASA decided that
every part that went into the space shuttle, even a piece of wire, had to be
accompanied by a full chain of custody on-line. When the HR guy took me
around to meet the team, they all scurried away like cockroaches.

It turns out the Sperry was laying off senior people and bringing in young
pukes like me to cut salary costs. They had little interest in meeting the
people that were taking their jobs and I can't blame them. I decided
instead to work for an employment company that scheduled nurse visits and
was using spreadsheets to do it. You wouldn't believe all the things that
spreadsheets got used for until they grew too big. Then I'd get the call.
(-:

After that I made my living converting spreadsheets to databases and taking
on applications scheduled for mainframe implementation that had languished
in the queue for a year or more. Doing PC software developing was really
like being a cowboy on the wide open prairie. Conversion is a weird
business to be in. Sometimes it's easier than developing software from
scratch and sometimes you wish you had that option.

PCs and Windows is
not all. Disappointed. Never worked on Hexadecimal ALU, stuffs like
that? hard coax data transmission(not optical fiber).

I have a good friend that was a little older than me who was a mainframe
jockey like you g and a true believer that no PC or network of PCs could
ever touch a mainframe for most large applications. I would always say
"we're getting there!"

Looking at it dispassionately, there's actually convergence between PCs and
mainframes in that massively parallel PCs are hooked together using multiple
CPUs in much the same way. Clearly places like Amazon and Google have
decided that PC server farms are far better tools for their
transaction-based trade than a supercomputer. And transactions per second
was the holy grail back then so I assume that mantle has passed.

I learned some pretty valuable things from a mainframe jockey in my PC user
group. One was to document all changes as if someone else was going to have
to work on the machine. Or more importantly as if you were being handed the
system from someone else. As my memory fades, documenting what I do is
becoming more and more critical. )-: Oddly enough, I can't remember the
second, more important thing that he taught me. Sheesh. I can't even
remember whether there WAS a second thing that he taught me. I'll wake up
at 3AM shouting it.

--
Bobby G.

On 10/12/2015 1:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
we look things up? I know I used to go to the library at least once a
week
before the Internet and I haven't been back in years.

I still hit the library regularly to pick up mind rot but I haven't done
any
serious researching there in years unless I was bumming the wifi.

I use the public library:
- as a source for "free" rental DVD's

Got Netflix. Comes right to my door. Gave up premium cable for it and
don't miss it.

We each pick up 10 DVD's each week on our drives past our respective
library branches (we frequent different parts of town). Costs us
nothing but the time to walk in and pick them up off the "reserved"
stacks (place orders online)

(we don't watch broadcast/CATV; just "movies" or "series" off DVD)

Personal choice? Bad reception? Parsimonious?

Is there something we're *missing*? Last I checked, TV was all "reality"
shows (i.e., things that are cheap to produce and usually reflect that
in their content!). Why *pay* for cable and then "need" to make it
worth the expense (by sitting in front of the TV)?

- reference city/county data
(researching property taxes, etc.)

Lots of jurisdictions (like mine) have that on line. I usually go to the
county courthouse to get the real scoop on a property or neighborhood.

The online portions are essentially summaries. If you want to
compare properties (and the taxes thereon) you need more detail.

- reference texts available via ILL

Got a professional librarian friend who gets me what I need from
Interlibrary Loans in exhange for having her own private help desk (me).

As we are "big users" of the library's resources (DVDs, research
titles, etc.) I've befriended most of the staff. "The woman" (Sue)
who does the ILL's knows me by name/sight as well as by my ILL needs.
While ILL's cost a fair bit of money to fulfill, the library folk
appear to *welcome* this "expense" as it is directly indicative of the
library being *used*.

I submit name of article/book, publication name, date, author, etc. online
and it magically appears with my "reserved" DVDs/books whenever the library
manages to acquire it.

(some titles: _Pai Gow Poker_, _

About 530,000 results from Google

It's not enough to know how to play, the cultural history of Pai Gow, etc.
but, rather, how to design an optimal playing algorithm to embody in
a gaming device. Owner/operators aren't keen on gaming devices that
pay out more than they take in (because the implementation isn't clever
enough).

[No, you can't "cheat" and deliberately screw the player; the game must
be "fair" -- YOU just need to be a much better player than the human!]

From text to speech: The MITalk System_

Date Published: May 1987 - I find technical info from that long ago to be
mostly curiosities and not particular useful in daily ops. That was even a
problem for me when I had access to the UM's engineering library. Lots of
great stuff but much of it woefully out of date.

The codebase predates the text. Probably by ~5 years -- so, by your
assessment, its even *more* "out of date". E.g., the DECtalk (same
pedigree) dates from ~84. I'd have to check the DECtalk Express's
(portable/battery operated) date of manufacture to see how quickly
it "shrank".

Comparable synthesis products of that time period included the Votrax
(about the size of the DTC-01 and it had no "smarts", relying on an
external computer to feed it phoneme codes) and TI's LPC offering
(which was limited domain).

But, if you do the research, you'll discover that it *is* the state of the
art for formant-based synthesizers. Newer technologies (diphone, catenative,
MBROLA, PSOLA, etc.) require large unit inventories, part-of-speech databases,
exception dictionaries, etc -- all of which lead to implementations that are
considerably larger than a formant synthesizer (small phoneme inventory with
~dozen parameters governing each) and an *algorithmic* grapheme-to-phoneme
conversion algorithm (instead of storing "pronunciations" in a large
dictionary).

For an unconstrained vocabulary, the "new" approaches are only practical
when you have lots of resources to devote to speech (e.g., a PC)

[My synthesizer could run on a PC XT (make sure you understand how FEW
resources the XT originally had!). Most "modern" synthesizers wouldn't
*fit* on the magnetic media available from the XT, let alone run
*without* it!]

- research papers usually only available through "subscription" services
("A Simple Method of Computing the Input Quantization and
Multiplication
Roundoff Errors in a Digital Filter")

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login...mber%3D1162595
Date of publication 1974 - again, having a librarian friend is a great asset
if I want something from a sub. journal that the university has access to.

If it's available on-line in a PDF, that's where I got it. If not,
then Sue gets a request and I forget about it until it until she
locates it for me.

Most "papers" have no copying charges (and are probably FAX'ed to the library
from wherever). If it comes to me in paper form, I scan it and make a PDF
for my archive. If I locate it online, I save the original (in whatever
form) and print a reference copy.

The same is not true of books -- which are typically too large to photocopy.
So, if I find myself referencing a book extensively, I locate a copy for
my dead-tree collection. The MITalk book was one such acquisition as the
material it covers (and *references*) is far too much for me to have
absorbed in the 3 week (non-renewable) period that the book was available
to me via ILL.

The same is true of _The Multics System_, _Versalog Slide Rule Instructions_,
_Programming Under Mach_, etc. -- each titles that need to "linger" for
the occasions when I need to refresh some memory. The library gives me
a great way to "try before you buy" -- something that a brick and mortar
store *wouldn't* (esp with older titles).

- scant few titles that I'd never want to have to keep on my own shelves
(we've been actively ridding ourselves of books/paper for the past 20
years -- let the *library* keep a copy of the latest NEC, CRC, etc.)

If I need to know something from the NEC it's usually NOT when the library's
open and more importantly, I can get some pretty good info from the NEC
codemeisters here in AHR.

I can almost always defer a decision until I can get the information that
I need. How long are you willing to wait for a reply to a post, here?
How willing are you to trust the interpretation (of text you can't see)?
What if illustrations are involved?

But I get your point. For some people the library still has value - just
not for me.

As a physical building, it has very little value for me -- other than
as a pickup/dropoff point for materials that I've "ordered" online.
From talking with friends around the country, it appears that libraries
are trying to become "social centers"... places where people congregate
to *do* things (listen to lectures, listen to musicians, let their
children play together, etc.) so the appeal as a place to "do research"
is sorely limited.

The local university has a respectable library system. But, the campus
is far too large to make access easy for a "non-student"... AFAICT,
there are no places where "commoners" can park to access any of their
facilities (other than football games!).

Additionally, the (state!) university requires a UNIVERSITY library card
to withdraw materials. Neither of these "problems" exist with the
public library facilities.

On 10/12/2015 12:57 PM, Robert Green wrote:
Interestingly enough, when I asked for features that would benefit mostly me
and not all the other users, I always got the "we'll see" which is
parent-speak for a deferred "no." "Can I have a BB gun for Christmas?"
"We'll see."

That's not only for FOSS. When one of our clients asks for a new feature
I evaluate it. If it's a reasonable request and something I think most
of the users will like, I schedule it. If it's not a major project but
only of interest to that client I'll schedule it to be done some rainy
day. If it's a major change and only one client asks for it, it's time
for a PO.

Some clients are like kids. They ask for a gerbil, so you give them a
gerbil. Then they want a dog, so Lassie joins the family. They figure
they're on a roll and go for a pony. That's when you say 'we'll see.'

On 10/12/2015 01:46 PM, Robert Green wrote:
I always look at the ratings and read them in detail (lots of idiots who
give it 5 stars and then write "I haven't actually used the product yet."
sigh

One of my favorites:

"Love this book! (I think.) I loved Bill Clinton as a president and I
hope Chelsea goes far in life. She has grown up to be an amazing woman.
I am basing my review on my positive thoughts about Chelsea and her
father. I have not read the book yet ...."


I'm not in the middle school target audience so I'll never read the book
although I sometimes dip into YA literature, but if I did the last thing
I'd admit to would be judging the book by the author's father.

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:01:36 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 10/12/2015 01:46 PM, Robert Green wrote:
I always look at the ratings and read them in detail (lots of idiots who
give it 5 stars and then write "I haven't actually used the product yet."
sigh

One of my favorites:

"Love this book! (I think.) I loved Bill Clinton as a president and I
hope Chelsea goes far in life. She has grown up to be an amazing woman.
I am basing my review on my positive thoughts about Chelsea and her
father. I have not read the book yet ...."


I'm not in the middle school target audience so I'll never read the book
although I sometimes dip into YA literature, but if I did the last thing
I'd admit to would be judging the book by the author's father.
That would be like judging Justin Trudeau on the basis of his late
father, Pierre. Their last name and the party affiliation are the same
- but not a lot more. (Canadian politics - federal election a week
from today)

On 10/12/2015 11:57 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 10/5/2015 7:14 PM, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

I was building 3D CAD models some 20+ years ago (AutoCAD v11 w/ AME).
I can recall having a problem with the package (some $3K as an *upgrade*)
and having a fix in my hands within days.

If I had a similar problem with a FOSS product *today*, it would probably
be weeks for someone to "take an interest" in my particular problem,
devote some time researching it and then days or weeks for someone
to decide it was worth *fixing*!

That's a pretty broad brush you're tarring all FOSS creators with. I don't
accept it. I've worked with a number of Home Automation software publishers
who have literally fallen all over themselves to fix a bug or issue that I
identified and do it very quickly. If they couldn't fix it right away
because of some complex dependencies elsewhere in the code, they'd certainly
file it away in their "we'll get to it at the next major build."

When's "the next major build"? Is it before or *after* my release?

E.g., it is not unusual for a database to be a read-only construct and
still be useful. In fact, it can be a *desirable* characteristic
of a database -- the CERTAINTY that the contents CAN NOT be altered!

I.e., put the "data" on read-only media. Try as the software might
(bugs, malware), there's simply NO WAY to alter the persistent copy of
the data!

I rely on this capability in my current project. I.e., the data
resides *in* read-only memory. *If* the DBMS expects to be able
to alter it FOR WHATEVER REASON, that action WILL fail! There
is simply no way to write to the memory even if you deliberately
tried to do so!

Requests for this feature/capability are simply not important enough
(apparently) to rise to the level of "active development" (for
PostgreSQL). The feature *is* apparently supported under Oracle.
And, IIRC, under MySQL (though possibly as a kludge).

Given that I've adopted the philosophy that everything I'm building must
be available under an "open" (nonGPL) license, Oracle is out of the
question. As I've not been impressed with MySQL, that leaves me
with the only choice of taking ownership of a PostgreSQL release and
adding the features that *I* want *to* that release -- taking full
advantage of the license terms to do so as a "spin-off" codebase.

Of course, my priorities aren't the same as the PostgreSQL development
team -- nor its user base. So, my modifications will be of little
direct use to them. *But*, they'll meet *my* needs. If, at some
future date, someone wants to backport new PostgreSQL features to
my implementation; or, port my features to -CURRENT, that's entirely
up to them to do so -- without it impacting *my* efforts, time table,
etc.

Interestingly enough, when I asked for features that would benefit mostly me
and not all the other users, I always got the "we'll see" which is
parent-speak for a deferred "no." "Can I have a BB gun for Christmas?"
"We'll see."

Meanwhile, the clock is ticking on *my* project. What do I tell *my*
client? "The FREE software that I'm using doesn't work correctly.
I'm hoping someone will step up and offer me a solution sometime soon.
I realize *you* have market constraints that are pressuring you for a
product offering but there's nothing *I* can do to speed things up..."

If you told me that, as the guy who hired you, I would simply say "It's
unfortunate that you used tools that were unsuitable for the task. Didn't
you evaluate them fully before starting?" Whose fault is it then? The poor
FOSS creator who's doing it as a labor of love or the guy trying to save a
buck by using FOSS on a paying project?

Exactly. I spend $15-70K/year on tools. Because I *don't* want to ever be
wondering why a *tool* doesn't do what I expect it to do. Saving a few
dollars (or, even a few tens of kilodollar) doesn't make sense when my
reputation and a client's *product* (plus his reputation) are on the line.

I did projects 30 years ago that FOSS software *still* isn't up to the
task to address! Let alone do so efficiently and with minimal effort.

I rarely bring freeware onto a paying project but if I do, I make sure it's
functioning and that it can be properly licensed by the end user.

I've never had an issue with IrfanView, VLC, HexEdit, WinZip, PKModem (in
the very old days) and so many more products that I have just the opposite
view of FOSS than you have. What FOSS program burned you so badly that
you're willing to classify them all as drek?

On 10/12/2015 8:43 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 10/12/2015 12:57 PM, Robert Green wrote:
Interestingly enough, when I asked for features that would benefit mostly me
and not all the other users, I always got the "we'll see" which is
parent-speak for a deferred "no." "Can I have a BB gun for Christmas?"
"We'll see."

That's not only for FOSS. When one of our clients asks for a new feature I
evaluate it. If it's a reasonable request and something I think most of the
users will like, I schedule it. If it's not a major project but only of
interest to that client I'll schedule it to be done some rainy day. If it's a
major change and only one client asks for it, it's time for a PO.

Some clients are like kids. They ask for a gerbil, so you give them a gerbil.
Then they want a dog, so Lassie joins the family. They figure they're on a roll
and go for a pony. That's when you say 'we'll see.'

I don't get suckered into this sort of "endless maintenance".
Decided what you want, now. If you don't know, then *think* about it,
talk to your salespeople (surely THEY are talking to your customers?),
look at your competitors, etc. *You* are the best judge of your
market AND your company (including its commitment *to* that market).

[If you just want to give lip service to claiming that you're committed
to delivering The Best Quality, Leading Edge Products, Best Service,
etc. than *you* should know the hollowness of those promises]

I can tell you what's possible/affordable. I can refine your UI/UX
to make it more consistent or efficient. I can design for future
enhancement. But, I have NO DESIRE to perform those future enhancements.
Nor, argue with you as to what forms they might take, when they might
want to be introduced, how they will compete with previous offerings, etc.

That's "work" (boring). Just like disciplining a child.

On 10/12/2015 9:32 PM, wrote:

That would be like judging Justin Trudeau on the basis of his late
father, Pierre. Their last name and the party affiliation are the same
- but not a lot more. (Canadian politics - federal election a week
from today)

Or, George W based on George HW. One was apparently an intelligent
individual!

(I guess that speaks to the fallibility of genetics!)

On 10/12/2015 10:57 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 10/12/2015 9:32 PM, wrote:

That would be like judging Justin Trudeau on the basis of his late
father, Pierre. Their last name and the party affiliation are the same
- but not a lot more. (Canadian politics - federal election a week
from today)

Or, George W based on George HW. One was apparently an intelligent
individual!

(I guess that speaks to the fallibility of genetics!)

I never had much use for the family, starting with Prescott.

On 10/12/2015 10:55 PM, Don Y wrote:
If you don't know, then *think* about it,
talk to your salespeople (surely THEY are talking to your customers?),

Let's not even go there.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped
Any one worked on mainframes like super computers?

Wrote mainframe operating systems for a bunch of years until the
company (Unisys nee Burroughs) stopped new development in 1992. The last of the
systems was retired in 2010 and now is a working exhibit at the Living
Computer museum in seattle (although the card readers were long since
retired).

On 10/13/2015 6:40 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 10/12/2015 10:55 PM, Don Y wrote:
If you don't know, then *think* about it,
talk to your salespeople (surely THEY are talking to your customers?),

Let's not even go there.

I think most clients/customers *know* what they want. But,
they haven't "sat down" to actually "put it into words".
I.e., if *you* can get them to focus on this as a task,
you can usually lead them through all of the choices to
a definitive statement of need. And, they will actually
be happy/confident with that end result.

They just don't know how to do it themselves!

wrote in message
wrote in message
wrote:

stuff snipped

Virtually all "computer manufacturers" are only assembly plants
today. We actually had certain printed circuit boards designed and
manufactured to our exclusive specs, as well as some of our cases -
and in the early years - the "good years", consistancy was very good.

I think it just turned out the PCs are a better fit for most businesses. A
failed desktop CPU is a small problem, a failed mainframe CPU is a forking
disaster. Keeping a "hot spare" server on line was a lot cheaper than
dealing with a failed mainframe.

What I find remarkable is that we're gradually moving back to the mainframe
terminal model with the cloud. That is until one day the cloud crashes and
crashes hard. I'll bet there are teams in China, Russia and elsewhere
working hard to make that happen. )-:

After the beancounters took over it was just a clone assembly shop and
I was soon gone.

Here's a heart-chilling story about vulture capitalism and beans. (Cache
version since the main Forbes URL didn't work).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ch?q=cache:IB-
T6oISiGIJ:http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/06/simmons-bankruptcy-
bailout-banks-opinions-columnists-dan-gerstein.html%
2Bmattress+company+saddled+with+enormous+debt&hl=e n&&ct=clnk

http://preview.tinyurl.com/q67ts9x

http://tinyurl.com/q67ts9x

After being flipped six times in 20 years by a parade of private-equity
firms, Simmons is drowning in debt it can't repay. It laid off 1,000 workers
in a futile effort to cut costs. And now bondholders alone stand to lose
$575 million. Yet the company's most recent owner, Thomas H. Lee Partners of
Boston, has not only "escaped unscathed," it will be banking a $77 million
profit after the sale of Simmons to the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan
(announced Tuesday).
How is this possible? Well, surprisingly enough, it's pretty darn easy. All
you have to do is take what's called a "special dividend"-i.e., a
self-dealing payoff-when you issue debt. That's what THL did in December
2004, when it put out a major debt issue that saddled Simmons with a high
10% interest rate and then paid itself a $137 million commission for the
transaction.

These aren't just bean counters, they're bean thieves.

--

Bobby G.

"rbowman" wrote in message
...
On 10/12/2015 01:46 PM, Robert Green wrote:
I always look at the ratings and read them in detail (lots of idiots who
give it 5 stars and then write "I haven't actually used the product
yet."
sigh

One of my favorites:

"Love this book! (I think.) I loved Bill Clinton as a president and I
hope Chelsea goes far in life. She has grown up to be an amazing woman.
I am basing my review on my positive thoughts about Chelsea and her
father. I have not read the book yet ...."


I'm not in the middle school target audience so I'll never read the book
although I sometimes dip into YA literature, but if I did the last thing
I'd admit to would be judging the book by the author's father.

Yes, that's why you have to read through the reviews to determine which were
written by idiots and thus can be written off. Other favorites include
people who clearly bought the wrong product and those that had no idea how
to install or setup up the product they are reviewing.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

That would be like judging Justin Trudeau on the basis of his late
father, Pierre. Their last name and the party affiliation are the same
- but not a lot more. (Canadian politics - federal election a week
from today)

It's like the US Clinton/Bush fascination. We seem to like our political
dynasties and do exactly what it seems your compatriots do. Judge a son
based on the father (or brother or wife, etc).

--
Bobby G.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 10/12/2015 9:32 PM, wrote:

That would be like judging Justin Trudeau on the basis of his late
father, Pierre. Their last name and the party affiliation are the same
- but not a lot more. (Canadian politics - federal election a week
from today)

Or, George W based on George HW. One was apparently an intelligent
individual!

The apple never falls far from the tree but some of them rot faster than
others!

--
Bobby G.

"rbowman" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I never had much use for the family, starting with Prescott.

No matter what they say, I still don't believe he helped Hitler rise to
power:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...secondworldwar

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a
director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement
with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US
National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was
involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were
seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60
years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against
the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of
pre-election controversy.

--

Bobby G.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

Compaq machines were built like tanks. Not anymore. )-:
Thank Carly for that.

When Compaq bought Packard Bell their quality took a big hit that
they never fully rebounded from - and when HP bough Compaq, the same
thing happened to HP. Their high end stuff may still be pretty
decent, but they've "watered down the brand" with all their consumer
grade junk.

I agree. I have a co-branded (both names on the lid) HP/Compaq laptop that
I put on ice because they didn't make a lot of them. And because it barked
like a dog it was so slow. Maybe my heirs can cash in on it on "Pawn Stars
2060."

--
Bobby G.

"rbowman" wrote in message
...
On 10/12/2015 12:57 PM, Robert Green wrote:
Interestingly enough, when I asked for features that would benefit
mostly me
and not all the other users, I always got the "we'll see" which is
parent-speak for a deferred "no." "Can I have a BB gun for Christmas?"
"We'll see."

That's not only for FOSS.

I didn't mean to imply that it was, only that certain FOSS authors run their
railroads pretty much the same as the big boys.

When one of our clients asks for a new feature
I evaluate it. If it's a reasonable request and something I think most
of the users will like, I schedule it. If it's not a major project but
only of interest to that client I'll schedule it to be done some rainy
day. If it's a major change and only one client asks for it, it's time
for a PO.

My biggest issue was often convincing clients that we don't accept change
orders over the telephone. If it's clearly outside the scope of te work,
out comes the PO.

Some clients are like kids. They ask for a gerbil, so you give them a
gerbil. Then they want a dog, so Lassie joins the family. They figure
they're on a roll and go for a pony. That's when you say 'we'll see.'

What's the old joke about the little kid digging through a huge pile of
horse manure saying "I know there's a pony in here SOMEWHERE!"

--
Bobby G.

"rbowman" wrote in message
...
On 10/12/2015 10:55 PM, Don Y wrote:
If you don't know, then *think* about it,
talk to your salespeople (surely THEY are talking to your customers?),

Let's not even go there.

OK. (-:

--
Bobby G.

"Don Y" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I think most clients/customers *know* what they want. But,
they haven't "sat down" to actually "put it into words".

Aye, there's the rub. I kinda of disagree. Clients don't know the
capabilities of computers so they really can't spec out what they want with
a true understanding of what can be done.

I designed a library support system for a FFRDC and the head librarian said
of the database we were building: "Can't we put all the data in one big
searchable field like my Post It note program does?" The database ended up
with well over 100 discrete elements, not one single field. But it took
some seriously explaining about searching, producing meaningful reports and
accounting for interlibrary lending and how important distinct data elements
were to those capabilities. I always tried to find clients that had
reasonable expectations and some knowledge of computer systems to start
with.

I think clients get a real understanding of what they want when they see and
play with the first iteration/prototype. I strongly believe in the line
from "The Mythical Man Month" that programmers should "build one to throw
away because you will anyway." And I always did and some programmers I know
went through more than just one total redesign.

I.e., if *you* can get them to focus on this as a task,
you can usually lead them through all of the choices to
a definitive statement of need. And, they will actually
be happy/confident with that end result.

Insert age-old cartoon of the tire swing labeled "what the client wanted and
what engineering delivered" he

http://www.workplaceinsanity.com/201...ally-want.html

In engineering-driven companies, what gets built is what the engineers
think the customers want, shaped by the engineers perceptions and
pre-conceptions. Engineers often are not really in touch with their
customers. In fact, sales people often actively discourage putting the
engineers in direct contact with their customers because they’re concerned
that engineers will make blunt or impolitic comments to their customers,
which may cast sales in an unfavorable light. So in most cases engineers don
’t really have a good perspective of what the customers really want.
Further, engineers are generally enamored of the technologies they are using
and designing, and want to be able to showcase their technology to the world
to say, “Behold world, see what I can do!”

That's a pretty true analysis in my experience. There's a big difference
between systems analysis and programming and not many people can do both.
The first requires almost a degree in industrial psychology, the latter, a
good technical background.

They just don't know how to do it themselves!

It's way more complicated than that. Once there's more than one person
helping to specify the program requirements the real fun begins.

--
Bobby G.

On 10/14/2015 12:37 AM, Robert Green wrote:
No matter what they say, I still don't believe he helped Hitler rise to
power:

I don't know about that but he kneecapped Nelson Rockefeller in 1964
handing the election to Johnson. Rockefeller's divorce and remarriage
didn't set well with Bush's puritanical values although they were
politically about the same. So, instead of a dynasty of Rockefeller
Republicans we got a dynasty of Bush Republicans.

On 10/14/2015 12:42 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I agree. I have a co-branded (both names on the lid) HP/Compaq laptop that
I put on ice because they didn't make a lot of them. And because it barked
like a dog it was so slow. Maybe my heirs can cash in on it on "Pawn Stars
2060."

My museum piece is a Compaq Concerto laptop:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Concerto

When the buzz about tablets with detachable keyboards started I thought
to myself I've had one of those for 15 years. What's the big deal?

My neighbor worked for a plumbing supply/computer store. I was looking
for a laptop when I went in she said 'We just got a new model in. You've
got to see this!' I took a look gave her $1500 iirc, and took it home.
At the time $1500 wasn't bad for a laptop, even without the novel features.

On 10/14/2015 12:58 AM, Robert Green wrote:
My biggest issue was often convincing clients that we don't accept change
orders over the telephone. If it's clearly outside the scope of te work,
out comes the PO.

It's not supposed to happen but we have a couple of clients that call or
email me directly. They're happy campers. They don't have a problem with
running beta software and get their stuff in days rather than the months
required for the formal process. I hear a little grumbling about my
cowboy ways but those are balanced by two clients that give us glowing
reviews.

On 10/14/2015 01:17 AM, Robert Green wrote:
I think clients get a real understanding of what they want when they see and
play with the first iteration/prototype. I strongly believe in the line
from "The Mythical Man Month" that programmers should "build one to throw
away because you will anyway." And I always did and some programmers I know
went through more than just one total redesign.

That's been my technique even when you had to swear a blood oath to
practice 'Top Down Structured Programming' or worship at the Church of
Booch.

"rbowman" wrote in message
...
On 10/14/2015 12:37 AM, Robert Green wrote:
No matter what they say, I still don't believe he helped Hitler rise to
power:

I don't know about that but he kneecapped Nelson Rockefeller in 1964
handing the election to Johnson.

I'm not sure Nelson could have pulled it off. A lot of people disliked
Nelson for any number of reasons: to many he was a filthy rich New Yawker.
Johnson was famous for finding all the votes he needed almost every time he
ran for office. Nelson surged in the polls every now and then but he
faltered often. Always a bridesmaid and never a bride, at least until
Nixon's antics left him a place at the table for a little while as Veep.
Ford selected Bob Dole for the upcoming election for his VP and NOT the
incumbent, Nelson, IIRC.

Rockefeller's divorce and remarriage
didn't set well with Bush's puritanical values although they were
politically about the same. So, instead of a dynasty of Rockefeller
Republicans we got a dynasty of Bush Republicans.

You know the old saw: Nelson Rockefeller died of low blood pressure - it was
70 over 25.

--
Bobby G.

"Don Y" wrote in message

Aye, there's the rub. I kinda of disagree. Clients don't know the
capabilities of computers so they really can't spec out what they want
with
a true understanding of what can be done.

They don't *have* to know what the capabilities of computers or any
other technology happen to be. They can *buy* that knowledge (in the
form of a consultant).

You've just flipped the problem, not solved it. The likelihood that you or
most any other programmer is a subject matter expert in their field is not
very high. If you don't know their business intimately - as well as they
do - how can *you* determine what's best for them?

Systems analysis - make that *successful* systems analysis - is a highly
collaborative effort where the clients and their expertise meet with a
information professional well-versed with IT and what it can do. The
clients would NEVER be talking to an end programmer at the analysis stage
unless its a very small project.

By now a lot of companies big and small have learned what it means to depend
upon a lone star programmer who disappears. (See my post about WordStar.)
That often happens just because the HW moves on and the best system in the
world for Win2000 might not even load in another environment. People so
burned usually *don't* let it happen again.

--
Bobby G.

On 10/15/2015 10:40 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message

Aye, there's the rub. I kinda of disagree. Clients don't know the
capabilities of computers so they really can't spec out what they want
with
a true understanding of what can be done.

They don't *have* to know what the capabilities of computers or any
other technology happen to be. They can *buy* that knowledge (in the
form of a consultant).

You've just flipped the problem, not solved it. The likelihood that you or
most any other programmer is a subject matter expert in their field is not
very high. If you don't know their business intimately - as well as they
do - how can *you* determine what's best for them?

IME, they don't need expertise in "their business"/technology. Rather,
they need help in applying that to some problem or in some market.

+ I don't (need to) understand the statistical analysis that may occur
in assessing the likelihood of a particular patient contracting a
particular disease;
+ I don't (need to) understand the chemistry involved in blood assays;
+ I don't (need to) understand the marketing strategy that suggest
GIFTING the assay equipment to the customer (knowing that it will
lock them into perpetually purchasing supplies/reagents FOR that
equipment at a significant margin);
+ I don't (need to) understand FDA requirements pertaining to those
reagents, the assays to which they apply, the folks who perform
those tests or the documentation requirements thereafter;
+ I don't (need to) understand why ABC is *modified* Codabar instead
of *genuine* Codabar;
+ I don't (need to) understand why said equipment must be capable of
operating for 2 hours in the absence of power (why not 3? or 1??);
etc.

I can accept all of those items as "Given". Yet, still introduce
considerable value in:
- determining how to unobtrusively "watch" the technician's actions in
performing the assay
- how to detect the placement of a few microliters (small "drop") and
identify *where* it's been placed (and if something had been placed
there already -- contaminated sample!)
- how to do so inexpensively and robustly (e.g., so the detector isn't
compromised by ambient EMI/RFI)
- how to allow the user to introduce those ABC barcode labels on different
types of media (tubes, trays, boxes) without requiring three different
(costly) detectors
- how to protect the integrity of the data that I collect
- how to design circuitry that can operate on a given "battery mass"
for the required 2 hours
- how to encode these algorithms in a programming language that can
be maintained by others
- how to implement all of this so that it doesn't require initial
or ongoing calibration
etc.

The client can spend their time on the things that are *their*
business IP -- developing blood assays and making those repeatable
and "affordable". They needn't invest in the technology required
to *apply* that technology -- they can *rent* that expertise!

Systems analysis - make that *successful* systems analysis - is a highly
collaborative effort where the clients and their expertise meet with a
information professional well-versed with IT and what it can do. The
clients would NEVER be talking to an end programmer at the analysis stage
unless its a very small project.

Exactly. "End programmers" tend to work in cubicles and have very little
idea as to what The Bigger Picture entails. My speech synthesizer is
the sort of thing you could hand to an "end programmer" -- small (1 man
year effort) and well defined (given enough prior art and detailed
specification). What that "end programmer" needs to know can be spoon
fed to him/her in a specification. He/she has only mild interest in
the *application* ("OK, so it talks. What do *I* care WHY it's talking??")

OTOH, the system engineer needs to identify *why* this mechanism is
needed, what its role in the system will be, the limits defining its
performance, resource/development budget, the likely implementation
technology (as suggested by these other requirements), etc.

So, the "end programmer" can't just feel free to "take a PC" and "make
it talk" but, rather, is given an effective power budget: you must
be able to speak using these resources for this interval (which could
be expressed loosely as a "number of words")

By now a lot of companies big and small have learned what it means to depend
upon a lone star programmer who disappears. (See my post about WordStar.)
That often happens just because the HW moves on and the best system in the
world for Win2000 might not even load in another environment. People so
burned usually *don't* let it happen again.

Actually, you would be surprised how often this continues to occur!
I worked at a firm that based their control system on an Apple ][
computer. Long after Apple ][ computers could be *purchased*!
(tell customer that you bought the guts of the control system for
his $1M production system AT A GARAGE SALE!!)

Much of the move to dumb-down the effort required to "program"
comes from this fear of being tied to key developers. So, instead
of one or two GOOD developers, you embrace a small army of
"average" programmers.

And, find yourself missing out on key skills that are ESSENTIAL
to successful product development: e.g., system engineers!
("We'll just let one of those AVERAGE programmers take on that
role")

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:00:49 -0700, Don Y
wrote:



Actually, you would be surprised how often this continues to occur!
I worked at a firm that based their control system on an Apple ][
computer. Long after Apple ][ computers could be *purchased*!
(tell customer that you bought the guts of the control system for
his $1M production system AT A GARAGE SALE!!)


About a decade ago in Chicago there was an incident where a programmer
or systems analyst (CICS) left in some sort of dispute and took his
source code with him. Code for the air traffic control system of
either O'Hare airport, or the entire Aurora regional center.
Should be news articles somewhere on the net.
I think the feds arrested him before it got straightened out.
Big companies can be ineptly managed. I was sole support for a fixed
income system at a major insurance company for about 3 years.
$50 billion in assets. They were moving the system from mainframe to
client server, but the move wouldn't happen for a year.
The investments department had undergone massive changes in the move
to client server, and ALL of the mainframe guys who knew anything
about the system were gone.
My "IT manager" came to my desk one day, and told me my contract
wasn't being renewed. Two weeks. I nodded my head and said "Okay."
We didn't talk much anyway, just exchanged pleasantries.
I was surprised Vince, my client user, hadn't told me first. We had a
good relationship, and I respected him, but I never took anything for
granted in the corporate world. Still, I was surprised, since I had
many high-level friends there, and hadn't caught wind of it.
The system was active and doing all the fixed income business,
including the CICS trading terminals.
I had a couple weeks ago converted to hourly from salaried with the
contracting company I worked for. They had boosted my rate with the
insurance company. I had become "too expensive."
Later that day I went to Vince's office to tell him what a joy it been
to work for him - I never burned bridges.
All he could say was "What?" and "I'll take care of it" and "You ain't
going nowhere" before he stormed out the office.
Anyway, I maintained that system until it's demise a year later.