I have a two-day old agreement to buy a condo. The condo has one full bath and a small kitchen. Today with my realtor I did a two-hour inspection. With a GFCI tester, I found that none of the kitchen nor bathroom outlets were GFCI protected. Furthermore, one of the kitchen outlets shows an "Open Ground" with my GFCI tester. I checked the voltage between the hot wire and ground in this outlet, and it reads about 0 volts (nowhere near the 120 volts or so it should read). The cover plate of this kitchen outlet has some silicone-looking like sealant around its edge.

In the condo's breaker box, the breakers for the kitchen and bath outlets do not appear to be GFCI. Even if they were, the fact is no breaker nor GFCI button trips when I press the test button on my GFCI tester for the bath and kitchen outlets.

I suspect that the bathroom and kitchen outlets at one time were GFCI, but the GFCI outlet(s) failed. Someone maybe went cheap and did not put in new GFCI outlets? Furthermore, they wired the outlet in the kitchen incorrectly?

I sold my house this past September and went through the inspection process.. You all gave me a good education on GFCI protection. Because of the counsel here, I have my own GFCI tester. I also have a voltmeter.

Any advice on what to ask from the seller on this matter? I would rather make the repair myself, on a hunch that the problem is as I describe above.

I found two more problems about which I will post separately.

Thank you in advance.

On 03/21/2015 03:26 PM, wrote:
I have a two-day old agreement to buy a condo. The condo has one full bath and a small kitchen. Today with my realtor I did a two-hour inspection. With a GFCI tester, I found that none of the kitchen nor bathroom outlets were GFCI protected. Furthermore, one of the kitchen outlets shows an "Open Ground" with my GFCI tester. I checked the voltage between the hot wire and ground in this outlet, and it reads about 0 volts (nowhere near the 120 volts or so it should read). The cover plate of this kitchen outlet has some silicone-looking like sealant around its edge.

In the condo's breaker box, the breakers for the kitchen and bath outlets do not appear to be GFCI. Even if they were, the fact is no breaker nor GFCI button trips when I press the test button on my GFCI tester for the bath and kitchen outlets.

I suspect that the bathroom and kitchen outlets at one time were GFCI, but the GFCI outlet(s) failed. Someone maybe went cheap and did not put in new GFCI outlets? Furthermore, they wired the outlet in the kitchen incorrectly?

I sold my house this past September and went through the inspection process. You all gave me a good education on GFCI protection. Because of the counsel here, I have my own GFCI tester. I also have a voltmeter.

Any advice on what to ask from the seller on this matter? I would rather make the repair myself, on a hunch that the problem is as I describe above.

I found two more problems about which I will post separately.

Thank you in advance.




You need to point that out to the seller then see if he will agree to
take $1000 (or so) off the selling price.


OTOH: If you are financing the purchase, the bank may require the house
to pass an electrical inspection (among other things) and it would be be
seller's responsibility.

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 4:26:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have a two-day old agreement to buy a condo. The condo has one full bath and a small kitchen. Today with my realtor I did a two-hour inspection. With a GFCI tester, I found that none of the kitchen nor bathroom outlets were GFCI protected. Furthermore, one of the kitchen outlets shows an "Open Ground" with my GFCI tester. I checked the voltage between the hot wire and ground in this outlet, and it reads about 0 volts (nowhere near the 120 volts or so it should read). The cover plate of this kitchen outlet has some silicone-looking like sealant around its edge.

In the condo's breaker box, the breakers for the kitchen and bath outlets do not appear to be GFCI. Even if they were, the fact is no breaker nor GFCI button trips when I press the test button on my GFCI tester for the bath and kitchen outlets.

I suspect that the bathroom and kitchen outlets at one time were GFCI, but the GFCI outlet(s) failed. Someone maybe went cheap and did not put in new GFCI outlets? Furthermore, they wired the outlet in the kitchen incorrectly?

I sold my house this past September and went through the inspection process. You all gave me a good education on GFCI protection. Because of the counsel here, I have my own GFCI tester. I also have a voltmeter.

Any advice on what to ask from the seller on this matter? I would rather make the repair myself, on a hunch that the problem is as I describe above.

I found two more problems about which I will post separately.

Thank you in advance.

It's anyone's guess as to what all is wrong. If it was contructed when
grounds were required, there should be grounds present at all the outlets.
It's not real old wiring with no grounds is it?
So, most likely it's what you think it is, someone screwed it up at one
or more of the outlets. But it could be other trouble too, like trouble
in some junction box somewhere.

From the description it sounds like you're saying you didn't see any
evidence of GFCI at all. If it was built prior to GFCI's being required
in those locations, then it would be code compliant as is, except for the missing ground. And all that could be corrected by correctly attaching
the ground wire and adding GFCI outlet/s. One GFCI could protect the
other ones on that circuit, if it's installed upstream. Or you could put
in a GFCI breaker, but I'd go the outlet route personally. If that's
all it is, then it's a cheap DIY. If the wiring is screwed up someone
else, it was a hack job where the problem is covered up behind sheetrock,
etc, then who knows....

If it were me, I'd probably have hired an inspector, let them flag everything,
give the seller a list and tell them you either want the stuff fixed or
you're willing to accept a negotiable discount instead.

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 2:56:59 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
It's anyone's guess as to what all is wrong. If it was contructed when
grounds were required, there should be grounds present at all the outlets..
It's not real old wiring with no grounds is it?

No. The condo was built somewhere between 1992 and 1995. I checked a few of the outlets in the living room and bedroom. They showed 120 volts between the hot line and the ground.

So, most likely it's what you think it is, someone screwed it up at one
or more of the outlets. But it could be other trouble too, like trouble
in some junction box somewhere.

Understood.

From the description it sounds like you're saying you didn't see any
evidence of GFCI at all. If it was built prior to GFCI's being required
in those locations, then it would be code compliant as is, except for the missing ground. And all that could be corrected by correctly attaching
the ground wire and adding GFCI outlet/s. One GFCI could protect the
other ones on that circuit, if it's installed upstream. Or you could put
in a GFCI breaker, but I'd go the outlet route personally. If that's
all it is, then it's a cheap DIY. If the wiring is screwed up someone
else, it was a hack job where the problem is covered up behind sheetrock,
etc, then who knows....

Understood.

If it were me, I'd probably have hired an inspector, let them flag everything,
give the seller a list and tell them you either want the stuff fixed or
you're willing to accept a negotiable discount instead.

Okay, thank you.

Philo, this is a cash deal, no financing. The contract has the usual language about inspections, corrections, and resolving them. I can back out right now over this, at no loss of money. I would rather resolve the problems. Thank you for your estimate of an appropriate amount to ask.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:26:33 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Today with my realtor I did a two-hour inspection

Bingo. Consult: Today with my realtor I did a two-hour inspection.

Let the Agent handle this.

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 5:07:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 2:56:59 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
It's anyone's guess as to what all is wrong. If it was contructed when
grounds were required, there should be grounds present at all the outlets.
It's not real old wiring with no grounds is it?

No. The condo was built somewhere between 1992 and 1995. I checked a few of the outlets in the living room and bedroom. They showed 120 volts between the hot line and the ground.


Then the appropriate outlets in the baths, kitchen, garage (if there is one),
should be GFCI protected. It's not unusual for one outlet somewhere to be
protecting other outlets downstream, but you should have seen some somewhere
and as you say, your test gizmo didn't trip any. Possible somebody with their
own agenda took them out.

On 3/21/2015 4:26 PM, wrote:
I have a two-day old agreement to buy a condo. The condo has one full bath and a small kitchen. Today with my realtor I did a two-hour inspection. With a GFCI tester, I found that none of the kitchen nor bathroom outlets were GFCI protected. Furthermore, one of the kitchen outlets shows an "Open Ground" with my GFCI tester. I checked the voltage between the hot wire and ground in this outlet, and it reads about 0 volts (nowhere near the 120 volts or so it should read). The cover plate of this kitchen outlet has some silicone-looking like sealant around its edge.

In the condo's breaker box, the breakers for the kitchen and bath outlets do not appear to be GFCI. Even if they were, the fact is no breaker nor GFCI button trips when I press the test button on my GFCI tester for the bath and kitchen outlets.

I suspect that the bathroom and kitchen outlets at one time were GFCI, but the GFCI outlet(s) failed. Someone maybe went cheap and did not put in new GFCI outlets? Furthermore, they wired the outlet in the kitchen incorrectly?


When was the place built? Perhaps it was not code if it is an older
place. I think NEC was even in the 90', other local codes around 1971

On 03/21/2015 04:07 PM, wrote:
O is covered up behind sheetrock,
etc, then who knows....

Understood.

If it were me, I'd probably have hired an inspector, let them flag everything,
give the seller a list and tell them you either want the stuff fixed or
you're willing to accept a negotiable discount instead.

Okay, thank you.

Philo, this is a cash deal, no financing. The contract has the usual language about inspections, corrections, and resolving them. I can back out right now over this, at no loss of money. I would rather resolve the problems. Thank you for your estimate of an appropriate amount to ask.




Ok it was just an estimate but no matter what, a good way to get the
present owner to lower the price a little bit.

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 4:26:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have a two-day old agreement to buy a condo. The condo has one full bath and a small kitchen. Today with my realtor I did a two-hour inspection. With a GFCI tester, I found that none of the kitchen nor bathroom outlets were GFCI protected. Furthermore, one of the kitchen outlets shows an "Open Ground" with my GFCI tester. I checked the voltage between the hot wire and ground in this outlet, and it reads about 0 volts (nowhere near the 120 volts or so it should read). The cover plate of this kitchen outlet has some silicone-looking like sealant around its edge.

In the condo's breaker box, the breakers for the kitchen and bath outlets do not appear to be GFCI. Even if they were, the fact is no breaker nor GFCI button trips when I press the test button on my GFCI tester for the bath and kitchen outlets.

I suspect that the bathroom and kitchen outlets at one time were GFCI, but the GFCI outlet(s) failed. Someone maybe went cheap and did not put in new GFCI outlets? Furthermore, they wired the outlet in the kitchen incorrectly?

I sold my house this past September and went through the inspection process. You all gave me a good education on GFCI protection. Because of the counsel here, I have my own GFCI tester. I also have a voltmeter.

Any advice on what to ask from the seller on this matter? I would rather make the repair myself, on a hunch that the problem is as I describe above.

I found two more problems about which I will post separately.

Thank you in advance.


*Two weeks ago I completed a bunch of repairs to house that had been sold. A lot of things showed up in the inspection report. It took two guys 10 hours to correct all of the problems because everything that we touched opened up a can of worms. Almost all of the issues were as a result of the homeowners doing their own electrical work.

The fact that there is no GFCI protection on multiple circuits in this condo is troubling. Kitchens, garages, outside, and bathrooms all need GFCI protected outlets. I am wondering if the homeowner did their own repairs or changes to the wiring. That caulked outlet is an indication of a hatchet job.

Ask for a few hundred dollars to install GFCI's and correct problems. If you had more time I would suggest getting an electrician to have a look.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 8:45:00 AM UTC-4, John G wrote:
On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 4:26:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have a two-day old agreement to buy a condo. The condo has one full bath and a small kitchen. Today with my realtor I did a two-hour inspection. With a GFCI tester, I found that none of the kitchen nor bathroom outlets were GFCI protected. Furthermore, one of the kitchen outlets shows an "Open Ground" with my GFCI tester. I checked the voltage between the hot wire and ground in this outlet, and it reads about 0 volts (nowhere near the 120 volts or so it should read). The cover plate of this kitchen outlet has some silicone-looking like sealant around its edge.

In the condo's breaker box, the breakers for the kitchen and bath outlets do not appear to be GFCI. Even if they were, the fact is no breaker nor GFCI button trips when I press the test button on my GFCI tester for the bath and kitchen outlets.

I suspect that the bathroom and kitchen outlets at one time were GFCI, but the GFCI outlet(s) failed. Someone maybe went cheap and did not put in new GFCI outlets? Furthermore, they wired the outlet in the kitchen incorrectly?

I sold my house this past September and went through the inspection process. You all gave me a good education on GFCI protection. Because of the counsel here, I have my own GFCI tester. I also have a voltmeter.

Any advice on what to ask from the seller on this matter? I would rather make the repair myself, on a hunch that the problem is as I describe above.

I found two more problems about which I will post separately.

Thank you in advance.


*Two weeks ago I completed a bunch of repairs to house that had been sold.. A lot of things showed up in the inspection report. It took two guys 10 hours to correct all of the problems because everything that we touched opened up a can of worms. Almost all of the issues were as a result of the homeowners doing their own electrical work.

The fact that there is no GFCI protection on multiple circuits in this condo is troubling. Kitchens, garages, outside, and bathrooms all need GFCI protected outlets. I am wondering if the homeowner did their own repairs or changes to the wiring. That caulked outlet is an indication of a hatchet job.

Ask for a few hundred dollars to install GFCI's and correct problems. If you had more time I would suggest getting an electrician to have a look.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

I especially agree with the observation about no GFCI's apparently
being present. In the period it was built, they were required. That
they are all missing, suggests to me that it may be more than incompetence.
Could be someone with an agenda, that doesn't like GFCI's. Given the
missing ground, caulk job, etc, it sounds like maybe it's both.

If it were me, since he apparently has an inspection clause, I'd just
respond back with what I found, that not having GFCIs, missing ground,
etc is a code violation and I want it fixed by a licensed electrician
and for the electrician to inspect the rest of the system.
That's the safest route.


How to proceed also depends on other factors, like has it been on the
market for a long time? A great deal that you don't want to miss or
similar condos down the block available, etc.

On 3/22/2015 8:44 AM, John G wrote:


The fact that there is no GFCI protection on multiple circuits in this condo is troubling.
Kitchens, garages, outside, and bathrooms all need GFCI protected
outlets. I am wondering if the homeowner did their own repairs or
changes to the wiring. That caulked outlet is an indication of a
hatchet job.
John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV


That may or may not be true. Yes, they have been required for a few
years now, but millions of homes were built before the code. Before
GFCI even existed. We don't know the age of the home so cannot draw a
conclusion.

On 3/22/2015 9:00 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I especially agree with the observation about no GFCI's apparently
being present. In the period it was built, they were required. That
they are all missing, suggests to me that it may be more than incompetence.
Could be someone with an agenda, that doesn't like GFCI's. Given the
missing ground, caulk job, etc, it sounds like maybe it's both.

Evidently I missed something.
When was it built? I saw nothing in the original post.

On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 10:21:44 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/22/2015 9:00 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I especially agree with the observation about no GFCI's apparently
being present. In the period it was built, they were required. That
they are all missing, suggests to me that it may be more than incompetence.
Could be someone with an agenda, that doesn't like GFCI's. Given the
missing ground, caulk job, etc, it sounds like maybe it's both.

Evidently I missed something.
When was it built? I saw nothing in the original post.

"The condo was built somewhere between 1992 and 1995."

from his second post

On 3/22/2015 10:57 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 10:21:44 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/22/2015 9:00 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I especially agree with the observation about no GFCI's apparently
being present. In the period it was built, they were required. That
they are all missing, suggests to me that it may be more than incompetence.
Could be someone with an agenda, that doesn't like GFCI's. Given the
missing ground, caulk job, etc, it sounds like maybe it's both.

Evidently I missed something.
When was it built? I saw nothing in the original post.

"The condo was built somewhere between 1992 and 1995."

from his second post


OK, likely needed then.

Update:
This condo has no garage. It is a one-bedroom, one bathroom, under 700 sq feet, two story unit. In this complex, most of the condo units are one-story.. The few two-story unit do not stay on the market as long. I want this condo, but it's nothing special and if necessary, I can walk away from it without pain.

Since I did my own home inspection, I requested permission from the seller to inspect more thoroughly the suspect outlet in the kitchen, including putting in a GFCI outlet. The ground wires were indeed disconnected in this outlet, explaining the open ground reading. I checked the voltages; all seemed sat. Else nothing out of the ordinary turned up on further inspection.

I found that one other outlet in the kitchen was downstream of this outlet, and hence GFCI protected once I installed a new GFCI outlet. Everything tested fine.

The bathroom outlet is not tied into the kitchen outlet. I installed a new GFCI outlet in the bathroom as well. It tested fine.

The condo was advertised as having a new hot water heater installed in 2014.. On my initial inspection, I found the date on the water heater to be 2003.. The water heater serial number confirmed same. Evidently the condo had been rented awhile; some water heater maintenance had been done by the property manager; and the seller mistakenly thought that the water heater had been replaced. The age of the water heater is too obvious for me to believe the seller and his realtor were trying to dupe anyone. I have requested a $700 concession for all (my time with the GFCIs; purchasing and installing a new water heater in the near future; and a non-functioning microwave turntable). I think this is generous and hope the seller accepts the adjustment.


Two lingering questions: The kitchen has a total of four outlets that are accessible for plugging in a coffee maker and similar. The kitchen is small, with an aisle between the sink side and the oven-stove-microwave side. One side (the sink side) has two GFCI protected outlets now. The other side (the oven-stove-microwave side) has two outlets without GFCI protection. If the purchase goes through, I will do more assessment. For now, is it fairly common for a kitchen to be divvied up into different GFCI zones? Current code does say all outlets in a kitchen that are accessible are to be GFCI protected, doesn't it?

I bought my GFCI outlets at Harbor Freight, seeing only positive reviews for them and wanting to see if they are as good as the ones at Home Depot and Lowe's, for about half the price.

Thank you all for your help.

wrote in message
...
Two lingering questions: The kitchen has a total of four outlets that are
accessible for plugging in a coffee maker and similar. The kitchen is
small, with an aisle between the sink side and the oven-stove-microwave
side. One side (the sink side) has two GFCI protected outlets now. The
other side (the oven-stove-microwave side) has two outlets without GFCI
protection. If the purchase goes through, I will do more assessment. For
now, is it fairly common for a kitchen to be divvied up into different GFCI
zones? Current code does say all outlets in a kitchen that are accessible
are to be GFCI protected, doesn't it?

It is common to have two or more seperate circuits in the kitchen. That way
you can start the microwave and and the toaster or other electrical device
on the seperate circuits where they may overload a single circuit.

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I bought my GFCI outlets at Harbor Freight, seeing only positive reviews for them and wanting to see if they are as good as the ones at Home Depot and Lowe's, for about half the price.

Let us know how that works out.

Update:
This condo has no garage. It is a one-bedroom, one bathroom, under 700 sq feet, two story unit. In this complex, most of the condo units are one-story. The few two-story unit do not stay on the market as long. I want this condo, but it's nothing special and if necessary, I can walk away from it without pain.

Since I did my own home inspection, I requested permission from the seller to inspect more thoroughly the suspect outlet in the kitchen, including putting in a GFCI outlet. The ground wires were indeed disconnected in this outlet, explaining the open ground reading. I checked the voltages; all seemed sat. Else nothing out of the ordinary turned up on further inspection.

I found that one other outlet in the kitchen was downstream of this outlet, and hence GFCI protected once I installed a new GFCI outlet. Everything tested fine.

The bathroom outlet is not tied into the kitchen outlet. I installed a new GFCI outlet in the bathroom as well. It tested fine.

The condo was advertised as having a new hot water heater installed in 2014. On my initial inspection, I found the date on the water heater to be 2003. The water heater serial number confirmed same. Evidently the condo had been rented awhile; some water heater maintenance had been done by the property manager; and the seller mistakenly thought that the water heater had been replaced. The age of the water heater is too obvious for me to believe the seller and his realtor were trying to dupe anyone. I have requested a $700 concession for all (my time with the GFCIs; purchasing and installing a new water heater in the near future; and a non-functioning microwave turntable). I think this is generous and hope the seller accepts the adjustment.


Two lingering questions: The kitchen has a total of four outlets that are accessible for plugging in a coffee maker and similar. The kitchen is small, with an aisle between the sink side and the oven-stove-microwave side. One side (the sink side) has two GFCI protected outlets now. The other side (the oven-stove-microwave side) has two outlets without GFCI protection. If the purchase goes through, I will do more assessment. For now, is it fairly common for a kitchen to be divvied up into different GFCI zones? Current code does say all outlets in a kitchen that are accessible are to be GFCI protected, doesn't it?

I bought my GFCI outlets at Harbor Freight, seeing only positive reviews for them and wanting to see if they are as good as the ones at Home Depot and Lowe's, for about half the price.

Thank you all for your help.


The other kitchen outlets are probably GFCI protected from the two GFCI outlets already installed. All kitchen countertop outlets require GFCI protection and all outlets within six feet of the kitchen sink (including the refrigerator if it is in that zone, and outlets under the sink)

I don't know about the Harbor Freight GFCI's. I have seen some no name GFCI's used by builders. They are good for my business as they don't seem to last a long time.

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 2:32:18 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I bought my GFCI outlets at Harbor Freight, seeing only positive reviews for them and wanting to see if they are as good as the ones at Home Depot and Lowe's, for about half the price.

Let us know how that works out.

Yeah, knowing HF, I sure wouldn't buy GFCIs from them. IMO, more
likely to burn your house down than trip on a fault.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 06:43:46 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 2:32:18 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I bought my GFCI outlets at Harbor Freight, seeing only positive reviews for them and wanting to see if they are as good as the ones at Home Depot and Lowe's, for about half the price.

Let us know how that works out.

Yeah, knowing HF, I sure wouldn't buy GFCIs from them. IMO, more
likely to burn your house down than trip on a fault.

Do you figure they have those fancy-dandy "backstab" versions g

20% Off with a coupon

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 3:59:06 PM UTC-6, John G wrote:
The other kitchen outlets are probably GFCI protected from the two GFCI outlets already installed. All kitchen countertop outlets require GFCI protection and all outlets within six feet of the kitchen sink (including the refrigerator if it is in that zone, and outlets under the sink)

I checked, and the two other outlets (on the opposite side of the kitchen) are not GFCI protected at present.

Thank you Ralph and others for confirming that there may be more than one GFCI circuit in a kitchen, for the reasons Ralph gave.

I will do more assessing when I get to the condo in a couple of weeks.


I don't know about the Harbor Freight GFCI's. I have seen some no name GFCI's used by builders. They are good for my business as they don't seem to last a long time.

I understand. We shall see. In the two other homes I have owned, I have yet to see a GFCI outlet fail.

The deal is going forward at present. Just a few more hurdles.

Oren posted for all of us...



On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I bought my GFCI outlets at Harbor Freight, seeing only positive reviews for them and wanting to see if they are as good as the ones at Home Depot and Lowe's, for about half the price.

Let us know how that works out.

+1 Here today and gone tomorrow...

--
Tekkie *Please post a follow-up*

Oren posted for all of us...



On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 06:43:46 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 2:32:18 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I bought my GFCI outlets at Harbor Freight, seeing only positive reviews for them and wanting to see if they are as good as the ones at Home Depot and Lowe's, for about half the price.

Let us know how that works out.

Yeah, knowing HF, I sure wouldn't buy GFCIs from them. IMO, more
likely to burn your house down than trip on a fault.

Do you figure they have those fancy-dandy "backstab" versions g

20% Off with a coupon

+ you can get the free meter to trace your burn out wiring.

--
Tekkie *Please post a follow-up*

Update:
I bought the condo and have been living in it for a little shy of two weeks.. The kitchen does have two circuits (and so two breakers at the electrical panel) for the four receptacles that are accessible for use of countertop appliances like blenders, coffee makers etc. I am leaving the two receptacles opposite the sink non-GFCI protected. I use the kitchen and bathroom receptacles rarely, so I do not expect to have much of a report on the Harbor Freight GFCI receptacles soon.

I got the over-the-range microwave turntable going easily. The turntable uses a cute little motor that is easily accessed. I opened up the little motor's casing and found one of its two electrical leads had broken. I unwrapped a turn from the motor winding, to give the broken lead more length, and wrapped the lead tightly around its terminal. Tested, and it works. If and when the microwave turntable motor fully fails, I see they are available for $25 and less on eBay.

Thank you all for your input and time. Hearing others' experiences puts a person's mind at rest. This middle-aged woman is fading fast when it comes to serious labor home improvement jobs, but it's nice to know I can still have the satisfaction of doing some electrical jobs, with help from folks like you.

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Update:
I bought the condo and have been living in it for a little shy of two weeks. The kitchen does have two circuits (and so two breakers at the electrical panel) for the four receptacles that are accessible for use of countertop appliances like blenders, coffee makers etc. I am leaving the two receptacles opposite the sink non-GFCI protected.

Why not put the GFCI on the first outlet in each circuit and
thereby protect all the downstream outlets?

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:06:30 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Update:
I bought the condo and have been living in it for a little shy of two weeks. The kitchen does have two circuits (and so two breakers at the electrical panel) for the four receptacles that are accessible for use of countertop appliances like blenders, coffee makers etc. I am leaving the two receptacles opposite the sink non-GFCI protected.

Why not put the GFCI on the first outlet in each circuit and
thereby protect all the downstream outlets?

At some point, I will add a second GFCI receptacle to the kitchen, so both circuits, and all four receptacles, are GFCI protected. Right now I do not want to spend any more money. To me, it is going to take a lot for a kitchen appliance plugged into a receptacle opposite the sink to get dunked in water such that there would be a meaningful hazard.

Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result of the work you had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark number is close enough, we would just like to know if it is a workable negotiating tactic.

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result
of the work you had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark
number is close enough, we would just like to know if it
is a workable negotiating tactic.


Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 credit for the hot water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning microwave turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for five months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the two Harbor Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped and have to push the reset button. I figure either the Harbor Freight GFCIs are indeed inferior quality, or the house has some wiring fault. I see about 25% of the reviews at the Harbor Freight site say similar. I'll replace them sometime in the next couple years with one of the super slim versions from Lowe's or Home Depot.

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result
of the work you had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark
number is close enough, we would just like to know if it
is a workable negotiating tactic.


Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 for the hot water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning microwave turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for five months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the two Harbor Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped and have to push the reset button. They reset fine and I am able to use the outlets without further interruption. I figure either the Harbor Freight GFCIs are indeed inferior quality, or the house has some wiring fault. I see about 25% of the reviews at the Harbor Freight site say similar. I'll replace them sometime in the next couple years with the super slim versions from Lowe's or Home Depot.

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 07:38:05 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result
of the work you had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark
number is close enough, we would just like to know if it
is a workable negotiating tactic.


Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 credit for the hot water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning microwave turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for five months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the two Harbor Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped and have to push the reset button. I figure either the Harbor Freight GFCIs are indeed inferior quality, or the house has some wiring fault. I see about 25% of the reviews at the Harbor Freight site say similar. I'll replace them sometime in the next couple years with one of the super slim versions from Lowe's or Home Depot.
Check the manufacturer. You can buy a lot of inferior junk at Lowes
and Home Despot as well.

On 9/7/2015 7:38 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6,
wrote:

A wee stale thread, eh?

Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result of the work you
had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark number is close enough, we would
just like to know if it is a workable negotiating tactic.

Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 credit for the hot
water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning microwave
turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for five
months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the two Harbor
Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped and have to

You "find them tripped" suggests they were tripped *before* you had
plugged in "something"? Or, do you mean you found that they trip
as a *result* of your plugging in that something?

What sort of "somethings" are we talking about? E.g., plugging in something
that is SWITCHED OFF should have no effect on the GFCI. OTOH, plugging in
an electric frying pan that happened to be "on" at the time can present a
significant load!

[BTW, are you sure you shouldn't have been installing AFCI's, instead?]

push the reset button.

So, these are GFCI *outlets* and not a GFCI *circuit*. Do you, perhaps,
have more than one ON EACH CIRCUIT? Or, are they on separate circuits?
"Daisy chaining" the nonGFCI outlets off the "master" GFCI? If so,
are you plugging into the master or one of the daisy chained outlets?

I figure either the Harbor Freight GFCIs are indeed
inferior quality, or the house has some wiring fault.

Assuming you've installed them properly, GFCI outlets are notoriously
troublesome. Exposure to moisture, vermin, etc. can compromise their
performance. Long wire runs can sometimes lead to faulty operation.

I see about 25% of the
reviews at the Harbor Freight site say similar. I'll replace them sometime
in the next couple years with one of the super slim versions from Lowe's or
Home Depot.

As these are usually required on *dedicated* circuits (i.e., bathroom,
garage, outdoor, two counter top, etc.), consider looking into using
a GFCI *breaker*, instead. This allows all of the outlets to "look"
the same (one or two don't stand out as having funny "buttons").
I've opted for GFCI *breakers*, here, as the breaker seems to be of
higher manufactured quality than the (disposable) GFCI outlets.

There is a *potential* downside/lack of convenience with the GFCI
function being present in the electrical panel instead of *AT* the
outlet (i.e., when the GFCI trips, I have to make a trip outside
to reset it). OTOH, these things shouldn't be tripping in normal
use! Would you complain about the hassle of having to go outside
to replace a *fuse* (instead of having it handily present *in* the
outlet)? Ans: you wouldn't EXPECT the fuse to be blowing!!

wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result
of the work you had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark
number is close enough, we would just like to know if it
is a workable negotiating tactic.


Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 credit for the hot water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning microwave turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for five months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the two Harbor Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped and have to push the reset button. I figure either the Harbor Freight GFCIs are indeed inferior quality, or the house has some wiring fault. I see about 25% of the reviews at the Harbor Freight site say similar. I'll replace them sometime in the next couple years with one of the super slim versions from Lowe's or Home Depot.


Does it mean all other condo units will have same issues?
GFCI stuffs I purchased at whole sale outlet catering to trades
people all work fine.

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 11:45:10 AM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
On 9/7/2015 7:38 AM, honda.lioness wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6,
wrote:

A wee stale thread, eh?

Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result of the work you
had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark number is close enough, we would
just like to know if it is a workable negotiating tactic.

Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 credit for the hot
water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning microwave
turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for five
months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the two Harbor
Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped and have to

You "find them tripped" suggests they were tripped *before* you had
plugged in "something"?

I find them tripped before I plug in my vacuum cleaner whose switch is off.


[BTW, are you sure you shouldn't have been installing AFCI's, instead?]

push the reset button.

So, these are GFCI *outlets* and not a GFCI *circuit*. Do you, perhaps,
have more than one ON EACH CIRCUIT?

Only one GFCI is on each circuit. The earlier posts discuss this more. I have been plugging in my vacuum cleaner into the GFCI outlet itself (not one daisy chained downstream from the GFCI outlet).

Given the reviews at the Harbor Freight site, I am fine with remedying the situation sometime in the future by trying Home Depot or Lowe's GFCIs.

My only intention was to post an update on the Harbor Freight GFCIs, as I wrote a few months ago that I would.

Tony, I have not heard of problems with other condo units.

posted for all of us...



On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result
of the work you had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark
number is close enough, we would just like to know if it
is a workable negotiating tactic.


Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 credit for the hot water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning microwave turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for five months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the two Harbor Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped and have to push the reset button. I figure either the Harbor Freight GFCIs are indeed inferior quality, or the house has some wiring fault. I see about 25% of the reviews at the Harbor Freight site say similar. I'll replace them sometime
in the next couple years with one of the super slim versions from Lowe's or Home Depot.

This gives me a lot of confidence in HF and you -- NOT. It can be a life
safety item so if you want to cheap out. I'm glad I don't have to put the
AED on your blue, lifeless body.

--
Tekkie

Don Y wrote:
On 9/7/2015 7:38 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6,
wrote:
===================snipped======================== ==

As these are usually required on *dedicated* circuits (i.e., bathroom,
garage, outdoor, two counter top, etc.), consider looking into using
a GFCI *breaker*, instead. This allows all of the outlets to "look"
the same (one or two don't stand out as having funny "buttons").
I've opted for GFCI *breakers*, here, as the breaker seems to be of
higher manufactured quality than the (disposable) GFCI outlets.


I use a GFCI breaker for the one circuit that feeds both of my bathrooms on the
second floor. I'm about to buy a GFCI tester to make sure that my GFCI
receptacles turn off when I push the "Test" button. This should trip the GFCI
breaker in the breaker box located in the basement. Have you ever tried using a
GFCI tester on a GFCI circuit? I assume that the breaker should trip after
holding the Test button for a couple of seconds.

On 9/8/2015 6:48 PM, Arnie Goetchius wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 9/7/2015 7:38 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6,
wrote:
===================snipped======================== ==

As these are usually required on *dedicated* circuits (i.e., bathroom,
garage, outdoor, two counter top, etc.), consider looking into using
a GFCI *breaker*, instead. This allows all of the outlets to "look"
the same (one or two don't stand out as having funny "buttons").
I've opted for GFCI *breakers*, here, as the breaker seems to be of
higher manufactured quality than the (disposable) GFCI outlets.

I use a GFCI breaker for the one circuit that feeds both of my bathrooms on the
second floor. I'm about to buy a GFCI tester to make sure that my GFCI
receptacles turn off when I push the "Test" button. This should trip the GFCI
breaker in the breaker box located in the basement. Have you ever tried using a
GFCI tester on a GFCI circuit? I assume that the breaker should trip after
holding the Test button for a couple of seconds.

The circuit will open *immediately* when the TEST button is pressed.
The whole point of the GFCI is to interrupt the circuit before it
can damage "tissue" (typically, cause the heart to stop).

The GFCI detects an imbalance of a few *milliamps* between the
current being "supplied" by the hot and "sunk" by the neutral
FOR THAT BRANCH CIRCUIT (this is why a GFCI breaker has a neutral
wire connection!). This "imbalance" is current that is typically
flowing through a human being's body (though it can exist for
other reasons as well)

At 10 mA, you experience a severe shock; at 100mA you're pushing up
daisies (if not attended to). Higher currents can actually *burn* tissue.

One adage when working with electricity is to keep one hand in your
pocket; working with *both* hands tends to provide an easy path
through the heart (of course, there are lots of other ways this
can happen, but holding onto item A with one hand and item B
with the other -- realizing an electric potential between them -- is
a surefire way to tempt fate!)

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 4:50:46 PM UTC-4, Tekkie® wrote:
posted for all of us...



On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result
of the work you had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark
number is close enough, we would just like to know if it
is a workable negotiating tactic.


Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 credit for the hot water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning microwave turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for five months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the two Harbor Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped and have to push the reset button. I figure either the Harbor Freight GFCIs are indeed inferior quality, or the house has some wiring fault. I see about 25% of the reviews at the Harbor Freight site say similar. I'll replace them sometime
in the next couple years with one of the super slim versions from Lowe's or Home Depot.

This gives me a lot of confidence in HF and you -- NOT. It can be a life
safety item so if you want to cheap out. I'm glad I don't have to put the
AED on your blue, lifeless body.

--
Tekkie

I have to agree. HF is a great place to buy socket wrench extensions or a random tool that you use once in 10 years. I bought a cheap $10 VOM there
to leave on my boat. In under a year, the voltage readings were off by 30%..
I wouldn't buy a GFCI there, certainly not a no name Chinese one, which is almost all of what they sell.

On 9/9/2015 4:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 4:50:46 PM UTC-4, Tekkie® wrote:
posted for all of us...



On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-6,
wrote:
Were you able to negotiate the price downward as a result of the work
you had to do and costs of parts? A ballpark number is close enough,
we would just like to know if it is a workable negotiating tactic.


Before closing, the seller did agree to credit me $700 credit for the
hot water heater, my time with the GFCI, and the non-functioning
microwave turntable, so yes.

About the Harbor Freight GFCIs: I have been in the condo townhome for
five months now. About once a month I plug something into each of the
two Harbor Freight GFCI outlets. About half the time I find them tripped
and have to push the reset button. I figure either the Harbor Freight
GFCIs are indeed inferior quality, or the house has some wiring fault. I
see about 25% of the reviews at the Harbor Freight site say similar.
I'll replace them sometime
in the next couple years with one of the super slim versions from Lowe's
or Home Depot.

This gives me a lot of confidence in HF and you -- NOT. It can be a life
safety item so if you want to cheap out. I'm glad I don't have to put the
AED on your blue, lifeless body.

I have to agree. HF is a great place to buy socket wrench extensions or a
random tool that you use once in 10 years. I bought a cheap $10 VOM there
to leave on my boat. In under a year, the voltage readings were off by

I'd be surprised at the 30% figure... but NOT surprised that it wasn't
accurate (out-of-the-box *or* down-the-road). I have a couple of the
"freebie" HF DMM's and they're worth little more than the battery inside! :

Having said that, I keep one in the garage to check the voltage on
(car) batteries I have out there. And often grab one when I need to
check batteries on a UPS or even troubleshoot a failed TV, etc.

OTOH, if I ever get suspicious of the readings, I drag out a *real*
DMM (I have a 6 digit Fluke but it requires AC power to operate).

30%.. I wouldn't buy a GFCI there, certainly not a no name Chinese one,
which is almost all of what they sell.

IME, the troubles with GFCI outlets/receptacles are usually those
of long term reliability -- they tend to crap out if they are
"abused" in any way. And, folks tend to use them in the easiest
way possible (e.g., NOT wrapping each conductor around a screw head
but, instead, inserting in those "quick insert/seldom release"
connections on the rear of the fixture).

With *anything* Chinese, I wonder as to the actual quality of the materials
involved. Are the internal conductors *copper*? Aluminum? Some
"blend" (impurities) of conductive materials?? Are they of sufficient
dimension to carry the rated load currents? Or, are they effectively
"fusible links"?

And, how can Joe Average verify these things for himself??

On 9/9/2015 1:38 PM, Don Y wrote:

And, how can Joe Average verify these things for himself??

I wonder some times, if old fashioned quality
can be had at ANY price now days?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 9/9/2015 11:28 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 9/9/2015 1:38 PM, Don Y wrote:

And, how can Joe Average verify these things for himself??

I wonder some times, if old fashioned quality
can be had at ANY price now days?

I don't think so. OTOH, I'm The Cynic, so have a bias in that
statement! :

I've long stated that I would pay *double* (for many things)
for the ASSURANCE (not "guarantee" because that just means
you'll "make me whole" WHEN it craps out) that something
WON'T fail and WILL perform AS EXPECTED for some-period-of-time.
I.e., to KNOW with CERTAINTY that you won't have to worry about
anything (other than theft, fire, etc.) causing you grief
with that item in that time period.