The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

On 11/20/2013 8:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

My only experience was one time noticing a car with
the flashers on, about 7 or 8 in the evening. The
next morning, it was stone cold dead. I believe your
kindness saved them a dead battery. And very often
a starting battery completely discharged never comes
back to life truly. So, you may have saved them from
having to replace the battery next week. You are a
good neighbor.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
On 11/20/2013 8:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

My only experience was one time noticing a car with
the flashers on, about 7 or 8 in the evening. The
next morning, it was stone cold dead. I believe your
kindness saved them a dead battery. And very often
a starting battery completely discharged never comes
back to life truly. So, you may have saved them from
having to replace the battery next week. You are a
good neighbor.


Not to discount the good Samaritan aspect of what was done, but those
things have two batteries. I believe that they are designed with long
standby while not having the engine running and having full lights
on. Emergency flashers really do not pull that much. The small batteries
in cars are their primary liability.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/20/2013 8:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

My only experience was one time noticing a car with
the flashers on, about 7 or 8 in the evening. The
next morning, it was stone cold dead. I believe your
kindness saved them a dead battery. And very often
a starting battery completely discharged never comes
back to life truly. So, you may have saved them from
having to replace the battery next week. You are a
good neighbor.


Nah...I just wanted to climb into the cab of a Cat! It's not something this
big kid gets to do very often.

On 11/20/13, 6:35 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 11/20/2013 8:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg


Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood
had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's
his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked
past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they
were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

My only experience was one time noticing a car with
the flashers on, about 7 or 8 in the evening. The
next morning, it was stone cold dead. I believe your
kindness saved them a dead battery. And very often
a starting battery completely discharged never comes
back to life truly. So, you may have saved them from
having to replace the battery next week. You are a
good neighbor.


Not to discount the good Samaritan aspect of what was done, but those
things have two batteries. I believe that they are designed with long
standby while not having the engine running and having full lights
on. Emergency flashers really do not pull that much. The small batteries
in cars are their primary liability.



There are a ton of variables as well... how much amperage do the lights
draw, what percentage of the time are they on while flashing, charge on
the feed battery at the beginning, condition of the feed battery at the
beginning, battery temperature and likely others...

Erik

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/20/2013 8:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg


Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had
its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked
past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they
were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

My only experience was one time noticing a car with
the flashers on, about 7 or 8 in the evening. The
next morning, it was stone cold dead. I believe your
kindness saved them a dead battery. And very often
a starting battery completely discharged never comes
back to life truly. So, you may have saved them from
having to replace the battery next week. You are a
good neighbor.

Hi,
If it were LED fhlasher, it'd last longer.

I agree with Nightcrawler on this one.

I was in my local battery shop when someone brought in a huge battery; much larger than a car battery. Just out of interest I asked what it was out of, and I was told it was from a Caterpiller Grader. They use those a lot here in Winnipeg for clearing snow. The guy told me that the grader doesn't just have one of those, but two of them. And, the reason why they have two batteries is because they're often left at construction sites overnight in the winter where there's no electricity available for a block heater. So, they need both batteries to provide the power needed to start their cold engines in the morning.

In fact, my understanding is that in Northern Ontario, they will often collect wood and start a fire under the engine of the graders and bulldozers to warm up the oil in the oil pan in order to start their engines in the mornings in winter. I've never personally seen that being done; I just heard that it is done.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 01:17:25 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

Your queastion is impossible to answer. Depends on battery size, type
of bulb in flasher, and so on. If they are LED they can go for days on
even a small battery.

On 11/20/2013 9:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


Nah...I just wanted to climb into the
cab of a Cat! It's not something this
big kid gets to do very often.


I can understand that. I've talked to guys, and
they say it takes ten minutes to learn how to use
such a machine. And ten years to get good.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/20/2013 9:57 PM, Erik wrote:

There are a ton of variables as well... how much amperage do the lights
draw, what percentage of the time are they on while flashing, charge on
the feed battery at the beginning, condition of the feed battery at the
beginning, battery temperature and likely others...

Erik

And if the flashers are LED or incandescent.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

The good old days, we didn't need no stinken hazard lights, we had
stinken road flares.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Road...-/171176450377

On 11/21/13 07:32 am, Fat-Dumb and Happy wrote:

The good old days, we didn't need no stinken hazard lights, we had
stinken road flares.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Road...-/171176450377

And how long do those newfangled road flares last? Not nearly as long as
the kerosene lamps I remember from my youth, I'm sure.

Perce

LED bulbs draw much less current so battery would last longer

the batterys age makes a big difference too.

my 3 year old van battery died recently after the radio played for 2 to 3 hours.

i was cleaning and reorganizing my van.

I have a boost charger so it was no big deal, but it told me its time to replace the battery....

mine shouldnt of died so quickly, since i do the clean up the work van several times a year

On Thursday, November 21, 2013 2:29:54 AM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
In fact, my understanding is that in Northern Ontario, they will often

collect wood and start a fire under the engine of the graders and

bulldozers to warm up the oil in the oil pan in order to start their

engines in the mornings in winter. I've never personally seen that

being done; I just heard that it is done.

Many years ago I worked in northern Wisconsin. One of my coworkers would arrive, start the oil draining while he disconnected his battery, and bring both inside the building. He was so skilled at these tasks they hardly added any time to his commute.

At the end of the shift he'd pour the warm oil back in, reconnect the warm battery, and start his car. Then often he'd jump the rest of us before he went home himself.

That's no longer necessary with the improvements in cars.

On 11/21/2013 11:50 AM, TimR wrote:

Many years ago I worked in northern Wisconsin.
One of my coworkers would arrive, start the oil
draining while he disconnected his battery, and
bring both inside the building. He was so skilled
at these tasks they hardly added any time to his commute.

At the end of the shift he'd pour the warm oil
back in, reconnect the warm battery, and start
his car. Then often he'd jump the rest of us
before he went home himself.

That's no longer necessary with the improve-
ments in cars.


Sounds like a bit of extra work. But, it did
manage to get his car started when others would
not.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"nestork" wrote in message

stuff snipped

In fact, my understanding is that in Northern Ontario, they will often
collect wood and start a fire under the engine of the graders and
bulldozers to warm up the oil in the oil pan in order to start their
engines in the mornings in winter. I've never personally seen that
being done; I just heard that it is done.

I've seen film on NatGeo of Siberians doing something like that to keep
their trucks going. Looks a little dangerous. They don't actually light a
fire, but use a metal box filled with glowing coals (charcoal?) that has a
long handle attached. They position the box under the oil pan and replenish
the coals when required. An open flame is likely to burn cables and rubber
hoses, I would think.

German tank drivers did the same thing with their Panzers during the
invasion of Russia in WWII but the russkie's famous "General Winter" still
defeated the Nazis. The Germans were so low on fuel they couldn't keep the
engines idling all the time, which was another way to keep the engines from
getting so cold they couldn't be restarted.

Panther and Tiger tanks were plagued by constant mechanical failures that
many believe were the result of sabotage during their manufacture by the
slave and foreign laborers the Germans forced to build them. I recall
reading that more Panzers were lost to mechanical failure than enemy action.

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
DerbyDad03 wrote:
...snipped...
.... The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

Of course it would depend on the condition of the battery (or batteries,
some construction equipment and heavy trucks have more than one) but
any automotive or heavy equipment battery in good condition could easily
run typical hazard lights for 6 hours. I've known of instances where
they ran 14-15 hours, and certainly even periods are possible.



--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

The vehicle in question is this one:


http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were
on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Any chance they had left the flashers on deliberately to alert motorists to
their presence in the roadway? Playing Advil's devocate here . . . (-:
I've seen that done before - leaving hazard lights flashing - when the
equipment takes up a lot of road space and is being left overnight.

I much more impressed that you have the crew chief's cell phone number.
You're a "total immersion" sort of guy. g Now the important question is
whether you call him during the day to find out whether you were a hero or
not. You've made me curious. I always vote for hero but I even wonder
whether you legally had a right to touch that equipment, even as a good
samaritan.

It's a tough call. I am not sure I would have done it but I would agree
there's a presumption it was accidental because both weren't flashing and
any flashing lights would have to have been turned on during daylight,
perhaps accidentally, and might not be noticed by a crew departing at
3:30PM.

There's always more than one possible explanation. The driver might have
been trying to get his boss to buy a new battery so he was deliberately
killing this one before the real cold sets in and it could be a big hassle
(that's for Clare - now I *am* grasping at straws, but for comedic effect).

So we have several questions for you to ask the crew chief:

Were they on by design/law/insurance requirement or on by accident?

Were they LED lights (you should be able to answer, flashing LEDs are very
stroboscopic - not so with incandescent hazard lights. I would bet they are
LEDs nowadays because they're on hazardous equipment and the extended run
time - thus avoiding a dead battery if they're lit for too long - is a
*real* benefit.

Third question is how long those batteries last in such situations?

Fourth question - should you have entered the cab (his perspective)?

A topic for another thread might be whether replacing the tungsten bulbs in
my old van with LEDs would preserve a significant amount of battery life in
an emergency. I am not even sure that LEDs are legal substitutes for hazard
bulbs or worse that they interact badly with the flasher electronics in this
rather elderly (over 10 years) car and cause them to fail.

It might be better and smarter to retrofit a completely secondard LED based
hazard light system, placing LED's inside the van's copious head and tail
light lenses and wiring them back to a 12V gel cell and flash controller.

I recently saw a car with an amber turn signal LED on the outboard edge of
the passenger side mirror. What a great idea. I might want that retrofit,
too. The turn signals embedded inside the aforementioned lenses aren't
anywhere near as visible as the tiny little outboard amber LED on the
mirror. See what you've started wandering around in the dark, Derby? (-:

Speaking of calling you Derby I have to protest that I'm seeing TV news
shows put up statements from totally made up names during "here's the buzz
on the internet" segments they seem to be doing more often. Probably
letting callers rant is about the cheapest form of programming available and
station owners just love it. Just lamenting the state of modern journalism.
When I watch the news and it tells me "ChickenMan23" said X about Y I wonder
if end is nigh.

More straws. The driver is at this moment making a phony insurance claim
for something he says was stolen from the Cat last night and the police are
dusting for your fingerprints on the cab door right now. Your neighbor has
already told police he saw you climbing on the equipment in the dark with
two accomplices standing by.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist after the thread's beginning where it was posited
that these men were out to rob you!)

Are you sure they didn't leave radio-controlled canisters of fentanyl sleep
gas so that they could invade your home, knock you out by remote control and
steal all your worldly possesions even if you were armed? Better start
sleeping with a gas mask, just so S feels safe about your reckless decision
to let them in your house. Dangerous Derby Dad, always living on the edge.
(0-:

--
Bobby G.

How long does it take hazard lights to kill a vehicle's battery?

This made me think of "Blade Runner" where Deckard is asked by the Replicant
Leon:

"How long do I live?"

Deckard replies:

"4 years" and the Replicant says

"Longer than YOU!" and proceeds to try punching his lights out.

One of the greatest lines in all Sci Fi movie history.

--
Bobby G.

On 2013-11-21, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

Depends on too many variables. How old the battery, how big, how many
haz lights, what kinda bulbs, etc. My '91 toyota p/u's fairly new
battery will go stone dead with haz lights flashing, overnight. All
my bulbs are incandescents.

nb

DerbyDad03 wrote:
The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?


If the Cat was parked in the street, it maybe a law in your state to
have the hazard lights on overnight.
If the battery died during the night and someone ran into the Cat, it
would be their fault. If you turned off the lights, it would be your fault.

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 05:52:22 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

LED bulbs draw much less current so battery would last longer

the batterys age makes a big difference too.

my 3 year old van battery died recently after the radio played for 2 to 3 hours.

i was cleaning and reorganizing my van.

I have a boost charger so it was no big deal, but it told me its time to replace the battery....

mine shouldnt of died so quickly, since i do the clean up the work van several times a year

Modern car radios can take a surprising amount of juice. My vehicles
don't even have an "accessory" ignition position. There is no way to
play the radio with the engine off, once the door opens. But, yes, if
it killed your battery in 2 or 3 hours, the battery was past due for
replacement.

"Robert Green" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

The vehicle in question is this one:


http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were
on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Any chance they had left the flashers on deliberately to alert motorists to
their presence in the roadway? Playing Advil's devocate here . . . (-:
I've seen that done before - leaving hazard lights flashing - when the
equipment takes up a lot of road space and is being left overnight.

The machines have been parked in the exact same location every night for
close to 3 weeks now. They are off the road on a flat section of land along
side the wooded hill that overlooks the bay. This was the first time they
flashers were on.

It's interesting how they park the vehicles. They have been using 3 pieces
of equipment for the gas main project. A small Cat excavator, a larger Cat
with a dozer bucket and excavator bucket and some kind of a compressor
device that they tow around. Each night they position the trailer tightly
between the 2 Cats so it can't be moved back or forth. They place the
excavator bucket of the smaller cat on the street side of the compressor so
it can't be swung towards the street. There's no sense in swinging it away
from the street because it's too close to the wooded hill so you could
never get it out that way. Finally, they put the excavator bucket from the




I much more impressed that you have the crew chief's cell phone number.
You're a "total immersion" sort of guy. g


He gave me his number so that I could set the appointment to have them hook
up my service. It seems like they have no real plan for the individual
services part of the project. Last Friday they were working down the block
when I came out to go to work. They waved me down and asked when they could
hook up my house. "It'll only take a couple of hours, we could do it
today." I told them I had to check my schedule at work. He gave me his
number so I could call and set it up a time. I called and and asked for a
Monday morning appt and they said fine. Seems like they have no pattern,
they're just hooking up services whenever the homeowner is available. Maybe
as the project winds down they'll have to be more organized, but as long as
they can do 2 or 3 houses a day, I guess it doesn't matter which house they
do when.

Now the important question is
whether you call him during the day to find out whether you were a hero or
not.

I left him my number when I called about the lights. He didn't call me back
the next day and I don't plan to call him.

You've made me curious. I always vote for hero but I even wonder
whether you legally had a right to touch that equipment, even as a good
samaritan.

Oh, I'm sure I had no legal right to be in the vehicle. I'm pretty sure
that if I had done something wrong, like started it up and crushed the
compressor or drove the Cat over the hill, my phone would have been ringing
real early that morning.

It's a tough call. I am not sure I would have done it but I would agree
there's a presumption it was accidental because both weren't flashing and
any flashing lights would have to have been turned on during daylight,
perhaps accidentally, and might not be noticed by a crew departing at
3:30PM.

There's always more than one possible explanation. The driver might have
been trying to get his boss to buy a new battery so he was deliberately
killing this one before the real cold sets in and it could be a big hassle
(that's for Clare - now I *am* grasping at straws, but for comedic effect).


Now that's a stretch!

So we have several questions for you to ask the crew chief:

None of which will be asked. :-)


Were they on by design/law/insurance requirement or on by accident?

Were they LED lights (you should be able to answer, flashing LEDs are very
stroboscopic - not so with incandescent hazard lights. I would bet they are
LEDs nowadays because they're on hazardous equipment and the extended run
time - thus avoiding a dead battery if they're lit for too long - is a
*real* benefit.

Third question is how long those batteries last in such situations?

Fourth question - should you have entered the cab (his perspective)?

A topic for another thread might be whether replacing the tungsten bulbs in
my old van with LEDs would preserve a significant amount of battery life in
an emergency. I am not even sure that LEDs are legal substitutes for hazard
bulbs or worse that they interact badly with the flasher electronics in this
rather elderly (over 10 years) car and cause them to fail.

It might be better and smarter to retrofit a completely secondard LED based
hazard light system, placing LED's inside the van's copious head and tail
light lenses and wiring them back to a 12V gel cell and flash controller.

I recently saw a car with an amber turn signal LED on the outboard edge of
the passenger side mirror. What a great idea. I might want that retrofit,
too. The turn signals embedded inside the aforementioned lenses aren't
anywhere near as visible as the tiny little outboard amber LED on the
mirror. See what you've started wandering around in the dark, Derby? (-:

Speaking of calling you Derby I have to protest that I'm seeing TV news
shows put up statements from totally made up names during "here's the buzz
on the internet" segments they seem to be doing more often. Probably
letting callers rant is about the cheapest form of programming available and
station owners just love it. Just lamenting the state of modern journalism.
When I watch the news and it tells me "ChickenMan23" said X about Y I wonder
if end is nigh.

More straws. The driver is at this moment making a phony insurance claim
for something he says was stolen from the Cat last night and the police are
dusting for your fingerprints on the cab door right now. Your neighbor has
already told police he saw you climbing on the equipment in the dark with
two accomplices standing by.

I could have stolen the boatload of empty water and sports drink bottles
that were piled up inside the cab. Turned them all in for the nickel
deposit. My wife will deny the accomplices claim.


(Sorry, I couldn't resist after the thread's beginning where it was posited
that these men were out to rob you!)

Are you sure they didn't leave radio-controlled canisters of fentanyl sleep
gas so that they could invade your home, knock you out by remote control and
steal all your worldly possesions even if you were armed? Better start
sleeping with a gas mask, just so S feels safe about your reckless decision
to let them in your house. Dangerous Derby Dad, always living on the edge.
(0-:


We've been fine since Monday. They may be waiting until they finish all the
houses and then get us all on the same day.

--
Bobby G.

willshak wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
The vehicle in question is this one:
http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg
Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.
Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.
When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.
Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?


If the Cat was parked in the street, it maybe a law in your state to have
the hazard lights on overnight.
If the battery died during the night and someone ran into the Cat, it
would be their fault. If you turned off the lights, it would be your fault.


Both Cats have been parked in the same off-the-road spot for 3 weeks. That
night was the only night the flashers were on. They haven't been on for the
last 2 nights.

I guess someone could run into the machines since they are right near the
road, but drivers could also fall into ditches protected only by that
orange hazard fence or run into one of the many dirt or gravel piles that
are only marked by cones.

Heck for that matter, drivers could just drive off the road and roll down
the hill into the bay. There's no protection from that.

"nestork" wrote in message ...

Nightcrawler®;3152562 Wrote:

Not to discount the good Samaritan aspect of what was done, but those
things have two batteries. I believe that they are designed with long
standby while not having the engine running and having full lights
on. Emergency flashers really do not pull that much. The small
batteries
in cars are their primary liability.

I agree with Nightcrawler on this one.

I was in my local battery shop when someone brought in a huge battery;
much larger than a car battery. Just out of interest I asked what it
was out of, and I was told it was from a Caterpiller Grader. They use
those a lot here in Winnipeg for clearing snow. The guy told me that
the grader doesn't just have one of those, but two of them. And, the
reason why they have two batteries is because they're often left at
construction sites overnight in the winter where there's no electricity
available for a block heater. So, they need both batteries to provide
the power needed to start their cold engines in the morning.

In fact, my understanding is that in Northern Ontario, they will often
collect wood and start a fire under the engine of the graders and
bulldozers to warm up the oil in the oil pan in order to start their
engines in the mornings in winter. I've never personally seen that
being done; I just heard that it is done.




--
nestork

Some places up there they never turn off their engines unless they can
get the vehicle/equipment inside.

I know that semi-trailers will idle their engines all night long while the driver is sleeping, but often that's because the engine is operating the heating or air conditioning system in the sleeper behind the cab. So, the truck is locked and the driver is right on site, albeit fast asleep.

But, I'd say it's kinda pushing your luck to leave heavy equipment idling and unattended all night long, even in the bush. Those big diesel engines make a lot of noise, and out in the bush where you don't have any other noise, sound carries for miles. The sound of a continuously idling diesel engine is going to attract the attention of people inclined to steal equipment like that. It might still be there in the morning, but if you make a habit of leaving it idling and unattended at night, it's not going to be there in the morning for very long.

"nestork" wrote in message ...

Nightcrawler®;3153115 Wrote:

Some places up there they never turn off their engines unless they can
get the vehicle/equipment inside.


I know that semi-trailers will idle their engines all night long while
the driver is sleeping, but often that's because the engine is operating
the heating or air conditioning system in the sleeper behind the cab.
So, the truck is locked and the driver is right on site, albeit fast
asleep.

But, I'd say it's kinda pushing your luck to leave heavy equipment
idling and unattended all night long, even in the bush. Those big
diesel engines make a lot of noise, and out in the bush where you don't
have any other noise, sound carries for miles. The sound of a
continuously idling diesel engine is going to attract the attention of
people inclined to steal equipment like that. It might still be there
in the morning, but if you make a habit of leaving it idling and
unattended at night, it's not going to be there in the morning for very
long.




--
nestork

I imagine that the heavy equipment has some heavy duty engine heaters
that require an APU to fire up. I cannot fathom trying to fire up
an engine that was left overnight in sub-zero temps. I hear that any
equipment left for an amount of time out there needs to be towed and
heated up before they can be re-started.

Down here in the states some of the small internal combustion gen-sets
have heaters in their filter housings (1.5ft dia x 4.5ft) and circulate
the oil until a block temperature switch enables the start sequence.
They all have a pre-lube cycle, anyway, this is just another level of
protection in the event the grid kicks the plant offline for an extended
period of time, or if there is a step-up transformer/re-closure problem.

I suppose that if the equipment can be moved to a warmer location, that'd be the way to go, but often the equipment can't really be moved. For example, the diesel engines in a mining drag line or oil drilling rig. You can't move the diesel engine in an oil drilling rig without moving the rig, and it takes several days to set up the rig and take it down. Having to do all that just because an engine won't start isn't economic when you have to pay the crew a daily wage even when they're not working.

In those cases, there are still ways to start cold diesel engines. I've seen one case where you can set up quick connect fittings (like the kind on compressed air lines) on the engine of a pick up truck and the engine of a bull dozer (for example). You connect the pick-up truck's engine to the bulldozer engine with hoses so that hot engine oil from the pick up truck's engine flows through the engine of the bulldozer. After a while, all of the oil in both engines is hot, and the bulldozer will be much easier to start.

On really large diesel engines, like the diesel engine in a locomotive, they will typically use an electrically powered coolant preheater. The coolant preheater is entirely electric and both heats and pumps hot coolant through the diesel engines's water jacket, thereby warming up the entire engine. If the engine can't be brought to the preheater, the preheater can be brought to the engine, but in that case you also need to take along a gasoline powered generator to provide the electrical power the preheater needs.

Machinery-Heavy Equipment Engine Heating Products | HOTSTART

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote:

stuff snipped

Any chance they had left the flashers on deliberately to alert motorists
to
their presence in the roadway? Playing Advil's devocate here . . . (-:
I've seen that done before - leaving hazard lights flashing - when the
equipment takes up a lot of road space and is being left overnight.

The machines have been parked in the exact same location every night for
close to 3 weeks now. They are off the road on a flat section of land
along
side the wooded hill that overlooks the bay. This was the first time they
flashers were on.

That pretty much destroys my contention they were deliberately left on. )-:

It's interesting how they park the vehicles. They have been using 3 pieces
of equipment for the gas main project. A small Cat excavator, a larger Cat
with a dozer bucket and excavator bucket and some kind of a compressor
device that they tow around. Each night they position the trailer tightly
between the 2 Cats so it can't be moved back or forth. They place the
excavator bucket of the smaller cat on the street side of the compressor
so
it can't be swung towards the street. There's no sense in swinging it away
from the street because it's too close to the wooded hill so you could
never get it out that way. Finally, they put the excavator bucket from the

Yes, those are typical anti-theft precautions. Around here (near D.C.) you
will often see a small compressor or generator unit left hanging in the air
from a crane to keep them from "sleepwalking" if you know what I mean. (-:

I much more impressed that you have the crew chief's cell phone number.
You're a "total immersion" sort of guy. g


He gave me his number so that I could set the appointment to have them
hook
up my service. It seems like they have no real plan for the individual
services part of the project. Last Friday they were working down the block
when I came out to go to work. They waved me down and asked when they
could
hook up my house. "It'll only take a couple of hours, we could do it
today." I told them I had to check my schedule at work. He gave me his
number so I could call and set it up a time. I called and and asked for a
Monday morning appt and they said fine. Seems like they have no pattern,
they're just hooking up services whenever the homeowner is available.
Maybe
as the project winds down they'll have to be more organized, but as long
as
they can do 2 or 3 houses a day, I guess it doesn't matter which house
they
do when.

An interesting perspective - they take the targets of opportunity first,
which makes sense when you consider all the variables in dealing with
homeowners during the workday.

Now the important question is
whether you call him during the day to find out whether you were a hero
or
not.

I left him my number when I called about the lights. He didn't call me
back
the next day and I don't plan to call him.

Well, I think you've already answered the important question and proved that
you really did do a mitzvah by turning off the flashers. Mazel Tov!

You've made me curious. I always vote for hero but I even wonder
whether you legally had a right to touch that equipment, even as a good
samaritan.

Oh, I'm sure I had no legal right to be in the vehicle. I'm pretty sure
that if I had done something wrong, like started it up and crushed the
compressor or drove the Cat over the hill, my phone would have been
ringing
real early that morning.

When I was a kid we lived next to a fuel oil company and one of their trucks
was left out on the street without any brakes on. The slope of the street
was small but noticeable (it took much more effort to pedal up the block
than down. Imperceptibly, the truck started to roll and within a short time
was moving at a very good clip. One of the neighbor teens managed to climb
up into the cab and stop the truck before it did considerable damage. He
became a neighborhood hero.

From what I've seen of the problems they often have starting heavy equipment
up, I can't imagine anything accidental you might have done that would have
resulted in a runaway Cat. IOW, I don't see any *real* downside to turning
off the flashers other than you might have fallen off while climbing down.
I suppose there could have been a "deadfall" set up to injure potential
thieves, but that would have been unlikely even though heavy equipment
thefts are on the rise:

http://www.edmondsun.com/local/x1666...quipment-rises

"These high-dollar thieves like to strike during the holidays, when heavy
equipment may be more accessible because it is being used during bad
weather, or left unattended on vacated construction sites," said Glynda Chu,
spokeswoman for the Edmond Police Department.

Where do you sell a huge highway grader or bulldozer? Craig's list? (-;

It's a tough call. I am not sure I would have done it but I would agree
there's a presumption it was accidental because both weren't flashing
and
any flashing lights would have to have been turned on during daylight,
perhaps accidentally, and might not be noticed by a crew departing at
3:30PM.

There's always more than one possible explanation. The driver might
have
been trying to get his boss to buy a new battery so he was deliberately
killing this one before the real cold sets in and it could be a big
hassle
(that's for Clare - now I *am* grasping at straws, but for comedic
effect).


Now that's a stretch!

Well, considering we've been entertained by the possibility they rented out
all this heavy equipment and performed actual maintenance work just to get
to burglarize your house, it's not a BIG stretch. (-:

So we have several questions for you to ask the crew chief:

None of which will be asked. :-)

Well, maybe we can answer them without his input based on the additional
information you've supplied.

Were they on by design/law/insurance requirement or on by accident?

Accident. This was the only time they were on.

Were they LED lights (you should be able to answer, flashing LEDs are
very
stroboscopic - not so with incandescent hazard lights. I would bet they
are
LEDs nowadays because they're on hazardous equipment and the extended
run
time - thus avoiding a dead battery if they're lit for too long - is a
*real* benefit.

You could probably answer this too with a little "hard recollection" - fast,
sharp blips with no dimming or slowly pulsating? Can you visualize the
blinking? I just read a fascinating article about people with Highly
Superior Autobiographical Memory:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...e-fake/281558/

Apparently even people with superb memories have trouble remembering things
they haven't concentrated on. Just another nail in the coffin of the
reliability of eye-witness testimony.

Third question is how long those batteries last in such situations?

Fourth question - should you have entered the cab (his perspective)?

A topic for another thread might be whether replacing the tungsten bulbs
in
my old van with LEDs would preserve a significant amount of battery life
in
an emergency. I am not even sure that LEDs are legal substitutes for
hazard
bulbs or worse that they interact badly with the flasher electronics in
this
rather elderly (over 10 years) car and cause them to fail.

It might be better and smarter to retrofit a completely secondard LED
based
hazard light system, placing LED's inside the van's copious head and
tail
light lenses and wiring them back to a 12V gel cell and flash
controller.

I recently saw a car with an amber turn signal LED on the outboard edge
of
the passenger side mirror. What a great idea. I might want that
retrofit,
too. The turn signals embedded inside the aforementioned lenses aren't
anywhere near as visible as the tiny little outboard amber LED on the
mirror. See what you've started wandering around in the dark, Derby?
(-:

Speaking of calling you Derby I have to protest that I'm seeing TV news
shows put up statements from totally made up names during "here's the
buzz
on the internet" segments they seem to be doing more often. Probably
letting callers rant is about the cheapest form of programming available
and
station owners just love it. Just lamenting the state of modern
journalism.
When I watch the news and it tells me "ChickenMan23" said X about Y I
wonder
if end is nigh.

More straws. The driver is at this moment making a phony insurance
claim
for something he says was stolen from the Cat last night and the police
are
dusting for your fingerprints on the cab door right now. Your neighbor
has
already told police he saw you climbing on the equipment in the dark
with
two accomplices standing by.

I could have stolen the boatload of empty water and sports drink bottles
that were piled up inside the cab. Turned them all in for the nickel
deposit. My wife will deny the accomplices claim.

Not if they offer her immunity!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist after the thread's beginning where it was
posited
that these men were out to rob you!)

Are you sure they didn't leave radio-controlled canisters of fentanyl
sleep
gas so that they could invade your home, knock you out by remote control
and
steal all your worldly possesions even if you were armed? Better start
sleeping with a gas mask, just so S feels safe about your reckless
decision
to let them in your house. Dangerous Derby Dad, always living on the
edge.
(0-:


We've been fine since Monday. They may be waiting until they finish all
the
houses and then get us all on the same day.

Yeah, I am sure that's the ticket.

I've read some scary stories about how bad the gas infrastructure is in the
US and how many major gas pipelines are showing signs of failure from
corrosion, ground movement and accidental punctures from earthmoving
equipment.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveban...mers-billions/

An August 1, 2013 report prepared for Senator Ed Markey of Massachusetts
illuminates the fact that gas companies have little incentive to replace
leaky aging pipes because they are able to pass along the cost of lost gas
to consumers. As a consequence, American consumers pay about a billion
dollars a year for natural gas that never reaches their homes . . . "Gas
distribution companies in 2011 reported releasing 69 billion cubic feet of
natural gas to the atmosphere, almost enough to meet the state of Maine's
gas need for a year."

That's a recipe for trouble if there ever was one . . .

--
Bobby G.

"notbob" wrote in message
...
On 2013-11-21, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

Depends on too many variables. How old the battery, how big, how many
haz lights, what kinda bulbs, etc. My '91 toyota p/u's fairly new
battery will go stone dead with haz lights flashing, overnight. All
my bulbs are incandescents.

Anyone know if there are approved LEDs that can be substituted.

Just recently I came across backup/reversing light replacements that have
built in beepers. With just a simple bulb changeout my van now has backup
beeping.

I'd consider replacing the flasher bulbs with LEDs if they met DOT specs
because they *have* to last longer in emergencies. I'd be a little
concerned that they might negatively impact the flasher module because of
their different electrical profile.

--
Bobby G.

"willshak" wrote in message
...
DerbyDad03 wrote:
The vehicle in question is this one:


http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had
its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's
his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked
past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were
on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?


If the Cat was parked in the street, it maybe a law in your state to
have the hazard lights on overnight.
If the battery died during the night and someone ran into the Cat, it
would be their fault. If you turned off the lights, it would be your
fault.

Good point but I think DD's already established they were left on by
accident since they were only flashing on one vehicle and they weren't
flashing on previous nights.

--
Bobby G.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message willshak
wrote:

stuff snipped

If the Cat was parked in the street, it maybe a law in your state to
have
the hazard lights on overnight.
If the battery died during the night and someone ran into the Cat, it
would be their fault. If you turned off the lights, it would be your
fault.

Both Cats have been parked in the same off-the-road spot for 3 weeks. That
night was the only night the flashers were on. They haven't been on for
the
last 2 nights.

I guess someone could run into the machines since they are right near the
road, but drivers could also fall into ditches protected only by that
orange hazard fence or run into one of the many dirt or gravel piles that
are only marked by cones.

Heck for that matter, drivers could just drive off the road and roll down
the hill into the bay. There's no protection from that.

It's much harder to sue a bay for negligence than it is to sue a
construction company. (-: Sadly, I'll bet that at least one avaricious
lawyer has already tried (to sue a body of water). humor alert

--
Bobby G.

On 11/21/2013 11:50 AM, TimR wrote:


Many years ago I worked in northern Wisconsin. One of my coworkers would arrive, start the oil draining while he disconnected his battery, and bring both inside the building. He was so skilled at these tasks they hardly added any time to his commute.

At the end of the shift he'd pour the warm oil back in, reconnect the warm battery, and start his car. Then often he'd jump the rest of us before he went home himself.

That's no longer necessary with the improvements in cars.

When I lived in Philadelphia in the earlyh 70's, I had a 1964 Karman
Ghia. I did bring the battery in the house at night. I did not have a
problem at work because I parked on a hill and could get rolling and
pop the clutch.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 11/21/2013 11:50 AM, TimR wrote:


Many years ago I worked in northern Wisconsin. One of my coworkers
would arrive, start the oil draining while he disconnected his battery, and
bring both inside the building. He was so skilled at these tasks they
hardly added any time to his commute.

At the end of the shift he'd pour the warm oil back in, reconnect the
warm battery, and start his car. Then often he'd jump the rest of us before
he went home himself.

That's no longer necessary with the improvements in cars.

When I lived in Philadelphia in the earlyh 70's, I had a 1964 Karman
Ghia. I did bring the battery in the house at night. I did not have a
problem at work because I parked on a hill and could get rolling and
pop the clutch.

The Karman Ghia body design was as far ahead for it's time as the VW beetle
wasn't. I'll bet that body style could easily be revived today - it really
was a standout. Did you have the easy open (with a knife) ragtop, the
hardshell removable top or the hardtop?

--
Bobby G.

On Thursday, November 21, 2013 5:44:53 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
How long does it take hazard lights to kill a vehicle's battery?



This made me think of "Blade Runner" where Deckard is asked by the Replicant

Leon:



"How long do I live?"



Deckard replies:



"4 years" and the Replicant says



"Longer than YOU!" and proceeds to try punching his lights out.



One of the greatest lines in all Sci Fi movie history.


I like the line in Drive Angry. One of the disposable bad guys tells Nicholas Cage he's going to sacrifice the baby and live forever. Cage's line is "if by forever you mean the next 5 seconds, you're right." Then Cage kills him.

We lived in a small German town courtesy of the US Army.

Parked cars in some areas were required to have a taillight on all night. The German cars come with a low powered taillight and a separate switch. It easily works all night without draining the battery.

TimR wrote:
We lived in a small German town courtesy of the US Army.

Parked cars in some areas were required to have a taillight on all night.
The German cars come with a low powered taillight and a separate switch.
It easily works all night without draining the battery.

This has nothing to do with lights and batteries, but it is related in
terms of cars, Germany and the US Military.

I lived on the resort island of Sylt, Germany courtesy of the USCG. I
totaled a VW bug and it had to be disposed of. Since there was no junkyard
on the island, it had to be transported off of the island on the
auto-train. The metal and other salvageable parts were worth some money, so
a local handyman volunteered to take it off my hands - and off the island -
for nothing. I give him the car, he makes it disappear, we call it even.

We spent a full Saturday dismantling the bug and breaking it down into
parts that one person could carry, except for the engine of course. When we
were done, the entire car was put in the back of his tiny euro-style
pick-up truck and driven off base.

3 decades later and I still miss that car.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 01:17:25 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

The vehicle in question is this one:

http://www.halshydraulics.com/sites/...ulldozer03.jpg

Last night I came home from work around 5 PM and noticed that one of the
two Cats they're using for the gas main project in my neighborhood had its
hazard lights flashing. I tried the crew chief's cell phone, but it's his
work cell, and I guess he doesn't answer it after hours. I knew from
previous conversations that they are done at 3:30.

Later, around 9:30, when SWMBO and I were walking the dogs, we walked past
the Cat and I decided to try the door. It wasn't locked, so I climbed in
and turned the hazard lights off. The best I can guess is that they were on
for about 6 hours.

When I left for work this morning, both Cats were gone, so either they
jumped one with the other or the battery was fine.

Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?
That really depends on the lights and the battery. Generally a cat
will have a pretty heavy battery, and the cat will generally have only
2 lamps flashing. 35 watt flashersX2, with a 30% duty cycle would be
21 watts - if the cat is 12 volt, that is less than 2 amps - and a
deisel starting battery is usually WELL OVER 200 amp hours - which
would run that flasher for 100 hours.

My guess is the average cat crawler would still start in temperate
weather after 10 hours with the flashers on if the battery was in
decent shape - and quite possibly after 24 hours or more.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 07:53:21 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

We lived in a small German town courtesy of the US Army.

Parked cars in some areas were required to have a taillight on all night. The German cars come with a low powered taillight and a separate switch. It easily works all night without draining the battery.
Called a side light or "parking" light, generally energized by
turning the signal lever to the "off side" with the key turned off - a
3 watt (more or less) lamp was lit.

wrote:
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 01:17:25 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03

....snip...


Anybody know how long the battery in a Cat like that would last with the
hazard lights on?

That really depends on the lights and the battery. Generally a cat
will have a pretty heavy battery, and the cat will generally have only
2 lamps flashing. 35 watt flashersX2, with a 30% duty cycle would be
21 watts - if the cat is 12 volt, that is less than 2 amps - and a
deisel starting battery is usually WELL OVER 200 amp hours - which
would run that flasher for 100 hours.

This Cat 420E had 6 lamps flashing. 2 front, 2 rear, 2 indicator lamp
inside the cab.

http://www.murrietadevelopment.com/images/420e-1.jpg



My guess is the average cat crawler would still start in temperate
weather after 10 hours with the flashers on if the battery was in
decent shape - and quite possibly after 24 hours or more.