Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.
--
EA

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

Hi,
In real world situation you will have hard time finding purely resistive
load. Most loads are inductive affecting power factor. IMO, your
generator maybe border line under powered for the welder.

On Jan 12, 5:55*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.


thats actually a real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark

"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me.

Greg

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:10:58 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the
generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is
causing 12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage
variation being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer
load is substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this
would require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

Depending on what's loading the transformer, a transformer load isn't
necessarily substantially inductive.

That's the egghead theory. Unfortunately, my knowledge of welders starts
with being able to stick weld, then has this long, dark, gap, then gets
to the circuits theory that I know as an electrical engineer. So I
couldn't tell you just what the power factor of a welder is (PF = how
"resistive" it is). I can tell you that it probably varies with the type
of welder, what its technology is, and probably by whether it's cheap
Chinese or quality late-model 'merican.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On 1/12/2013 4:11 PM, Mark wrote:
On Jan 12, 5:55 pm, Tony wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.


thats actually a real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark
I'd like to see some measurements. We don't know much about the load.
If it's a transformer and a stick welder, is there reason to believe
that the load voltage/current presented by the arc isn't relatively
in phase?
Would be interesting to see the V-I curve of a plasma under welding
conditions.

On Jan 12, 5:48*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:10:58 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the
generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is
causing 12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage
variation being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer
load is substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this
would require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

Depending on what's loading the transformer, a transformer load isn't
necessarily substantially inductive.

That's the egghead theory. *Unfortunately, my knowledge of welders starts
with being able to stick weld, then has this long, dark, gap, then gets
to the circuits theory that I know as an electrical engineer. *So I
couldn't tell you just what the power factor of a welder is (PF = how
"resistive" it is). *I can tell you that it probably varies with the type
of welder, what its technology is, and probably by whether it's cheap
Chinese or quality late-model 'merican.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consultingwww.wescottdesign.com


Looks like the Chinese have made tremendous progress when it comes to
inverter welders. This one has gotten good reviews. I have no idea how
durable it is. My guess is not great. A quick check didn't turn up any
complaints. I would not buy the 3 in 1 unit. (has plasma capabilities)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CblpZF54_uM

$500 seems like a good way to learn Arc and TIG welding to me. If
someone got two years out of it, built their skill set and then tossed
it in the trash, I think someone would be ahead of the game. Seems to
me it's an affordable little machine idea for someone who has space
issues on a tight budget and who wants to learn on the cheap.

Tony Hwang wrote:


Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the
generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is
causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage
variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this
would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

Hi,
In real world situation you will have hard time finding purely resistive
load. Most loads are inductive affecting power factor. IMO, your
generator maybe border line under powered for the welder.



Just get an old electric range top. You can switch the loads on and off
as necessary.

John

"John" wrote in message
...
Tony Hwang wrote:


Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the
generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is
causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage
variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this
would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

Hi,
In real world situation you will have hard time finding purely resistive
load. Most loads are inductive affecting power factor. IMO, your
generator maybe border line under powered for the welder.



Just get an old electric range top. You can switch the loads on and off
as necessary.


Infinate burner controls don't present a steady load.

On Jan 12, 10:10*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

On Jan 13, 1:30*am, gregz wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me..

Greg

Not true. If power factor is bad, ( ie inductive) the generator can be
overloaded at below it's rated capacity in Kw.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:30:53 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me.

No, it cares about the current being supplied. Heating is done by the
current, not the real power generated. Generators are rated in KVA,
not watts.

On Jan 12, 5:10*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

On Jan 13, 3:40*pm, Transition Zone wrote:
On Jan 12, 5:10*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote: Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

* *I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, *cuz, *well,

PURELY resistive? *Where in the heck would you find a PURELY
RESISTIVE
load?

Oh, Attenuators. I didn't know that. I guess that part of the circuit
is purely resistive or resistive/inductive.

(I just looked up "purely resistive")

On Jan 13, 3:44*pm, Transition Zone wrote:
On Jan 13, 3:40*pm, Transition Zone wrote: On Jan 12, 5:10*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote: Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

* *I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, *cuz, *well,

*PURELY resistive? **Where in the heck would you find a PURELY
RESISTIVE

*load?

Oh, Attenuators. I didn't know that. *I guess that part of the circuit
is purely resistive or resistive/inductive.

(I just looked up "purely resistive")

An electric heating element, like a range element, toaster,
heater without a fan, water heater, light bulb etc are examples.
They all have some theoretical small inductance, capacitance,
too, but it's so tiny it can be ignored. The voltage and current
through those devices is in phase.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 12:40:11 -0800 (PST), Transition Zone
wrote:

On Jan 12, 5:10*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well,

PURELY resistive? Where in the heck would you find a PURELY RESISTIVE
load?

A heater?

A large block of carbon crystal with plates on the outside.
Compression of the plates changes the resistance.

Used them in lab experiments. 200 amp switcher supplies.

Martin

On 1/13/2013 2:40 PM, Transition Zone wrote:
On Jan 12, 5:10 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well,

PURELY resistive? Where in the heck would you find a PURELY RESISTIVE
load?

On Jan 13, 5:50*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:30:53 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:









"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me.

No, it cares about the current being supplied. *Heating is done by the
current, not the real power generated. *Generators are rated in KVA,
not watts.

Watts generated (in any conductor = Amps squared X resistance.

Poor power factor increases amps which means more heat has to be
dissipated in the generator.
(in the whole circuit in fact)

On Jan 13, 8:40*pm, Transition Zone wrote:
On Jan 12, 5:10*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote: Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

* *I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, *cuz, *well,

PURELY resistive? *Where in the heck would you find a PURELY RESISTIVE
load?

Any electric heater is as near as dammit.

On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, "MarkK" wrote:
Ill repeat my reply here for the sake of those that filter google groups

thats actually a *real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. *It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. *If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark

You neglect the resistance of the generator windings.

On Jan 14, 2:45*am, Martin Eastburn
wrote:
A large block of carbon crystal with plates on the outside.
Compression of the plates changes the resistance.

Used them in lab experiments. *200 amp switcher supplies.

Martin



You can buy one. Sewing machine speed foot control.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:28:47 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Jan 13, 5:50*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:30:53 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:









"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me.

No, it cares about the current being supplied. *Heating is done by the
current, not the real power generated. *Generators are rated in KVA,
not watts.

Watts generated (in any conductor = Amps squared X resistance.

What about "watts generated"? Is English your first language?

Poor power factor increases amps which means more heat has to be
dissipated in the generator.
(in the whole circuit in fact)

....and your point?

On Jan 14, 3:37*am, harry wrote:
On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, "MarkK" wrote:





Ill repeat my reply here for the sake of those that filter google groups

thats actually a *real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. *It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. *If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark

You neglect the resistance of the generator windings.-

I don't see that he neglected the resistance of the
generator windings. In a generator the resistance of
the windings is very small, negligible compared to
the resistance of any real load.

In article ,
Martin Eastburn wrote:

A large block of carbon crystal with plates on the outside.
Compression of the plates changes the resistance.

Used them in lab experiments. 200 amp switcher supplies.

Used to be used for speed control in electric trolleys, circa 1910.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9zM...PA29&dq=carbon
+pile+rheostat&source=bl&ots=G0OU5QxYJv&sig=hMmbFw em2ne9HADMpw6RunAhqOg&h
l=en&sa=X&ei=2BX0ULi9KJKD0QHX_IGgCA&sqi=2&ved=0CEQ Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=car
bon%20pile%20rheostat&f=false

Joe Gwinn



Martin

On 1/13/2013 2:40 PM, Transition Zone wrote:
On Jan 12, 5:10 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well,

PURELY resistive? Where in the heck would you find a PURELY RESISTIVE
load?

On Jan 14, 2:01*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:28:47 -0800 (PST), harry









wrote:
On Jan 13, 5:50*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:30:53 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me.

No, it cares about the current being supplied. *Heating is done by the
current, not the real power generated. *Generators are rated in KVA,
not watts.

Watts generated *(in any conductor = Amps squared X resistance.

What about "watts generated"? *Is English your first language?

Poor power factor increases amps which means more heat has to be
dissipated in the generator.
(in the whole circuit in fact)

...and your point?

The point is that if power factor is poor, the generator will have to
be derated you numbskull..

On Jan 14, 2:17*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 14, 3:37*am, harry wrote:









On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, "MarkK" wrote:

Ill repeat my reply here for the sake of those that filter google groups

thats actually a *real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. *It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. *If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark

You neglect the resistance of the generator windings.-

I don't see that he neglected the resistance of the
generator windings. *In a generator the resistance of
the windings is very small, negligible compared to
the resistance of any real load.

If there is no resistance in the load (ie purely inductive/
capacitive), it would be the only resistance in the circuit and hence
hugely important.

There is no such thing as a pure inductor BTW.
There are almost pure capacitors.

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:10:58 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the
generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is
causing 12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage
variation being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer
load is substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this
would require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

Depending on what's loading the transformer, a transformer load isn't
necessarily substantially inductive.

That's the egghead theory. Unfortunately, my knowledge of welders starts
with being able to stick weld, then has this long, dark, gap, then gets
to the circuits theory that I know as an electrical engineer. So I
couldn't tell you just what the power factor of a welder is (PF = how
"resistive" it is). I can tell you that it probably varies with the type
of welder, what its technology is, and probably by whether it's cheap
Chinese or quality late-model 'merican.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

Tim. Just a thought.... Would a large capacitor across the line help the
power factor? WW

On Jan 14, 3:23*pm, harry wrote:
On Jan 14, 2:17*pm, "
wrote:





On Jan 14, 3:37*am, harry wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, "MarkK" wrote:

Ill repeat my reply here for the sake of those that filter google groups

thats actually a *real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. *It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. *If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark

You neglect the resistance of the generator windings.-

I don't see that he neglected the resistance of the
generator windings. *In a generator the resistance of
the windings is very small, negligible compared to
the resistance of any real load.

If there is no resistance in the load (ie purely inductive/
capacitive), it would be the only resistance in the circuit and hence
hugely important.

There is no such thing as a pure inductor BTW.

Uh, huh. So, why did you just bring such a load
into the discussion?


There are almost pure capacitors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Uh, no. The generator winding resistance is still small. Small is
still small, whether you have a purely resistance
load or a load that has a substantial component of
inductance or capcitance, like the welder in question
or a motor.

On Jan 13, 4:02*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 13, 3:44*pm, Transition Zone wrote:









On Jan 13, 3:40*pm, Transition Zone wrote: On Jan 12, 5:10*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote: Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

* *I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, *cuz, *well,

*PURELY resistive? **Where in the heck would you find a PURELY
RESISTIVE

*load?

Oh, Attenuators. I didn't know that. *I guess that part of the circuit
is purely resistive or resistive/inductive.

(I just looked up "purely resistive")

An electric heating element, like a range element, toaster,
heater without a fan, water heater, light bulb etc are examples.
They all have some theoretical small inductance, capacitance,
too, but it's so tiny it can be ignored. *The voltage and current
through those devices is in phase.

I mean, you know. To be technical, in DC/AC/Grounding in electrician
school, they teach you that nothing is "purely resistive"

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:19:27 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Jan 14, 2:01*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:28:47 -0800 (PST), harry









wrote:
On Jan 13, 5:50*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:30:53 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me.

No, it cares about the current being supplied. *Heating is done by the
current, not the real power generated. *Generators are rated in KVA,
not watts.

Watts generated *(in any conductor = Amps squared X resistance.

What about "watts generated"? *Is English your first language?

Since you declined comment, I guess not.

Poor power factor increases amps which means more heat has to be
dissipated in the generator.
(in the whole circuit in fact)

...and your point?

The point is that if power factor is poor, the generator will have to
be derated you numbskull..

That's already been said. Many times, moron.

On Jan 14, 10:49*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:19:27 -0800 (PST), harry









wrote:
On Jan 14, 2:01*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:28:47 -0800 (PST), harry

wrote:
On Jan 13, 5:50*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:30:53 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me.

No, it cares about the current being supplied. *Heating is done by the
current, not the real power generated. *Generators are rated in KVA,
not watts.

Watts generated *(in any conductor = Amps squared X resistance.

What about "watts generated"? *Is English your first language?

Since you declined comment, I guess not.

Poor power factor increases amps which means more heat has to be
dissipated in the generator.
(in the whole circuit in fact)

...and your point?

The point is that if power factor is poor, the generator will have to
be derated you numbskull..

That's already been said. *Many times, moron.

Then why ask the question, **** fer brains?

On Jan 14, 10:04*pm, Transition Zone wrote:
On Jan 13, 4:02*pm, "
wrote:







On Jan 13, 3:44*pm, Transition Zone wrote:

On Jan 13, 3:40*pm, Transition Zone wrote: On Jan 12, 5:10*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote: Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

* *I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, *cuz, *well,

*PURELY resistive? **Where in the heck would you find a PURELY
RESISTIVE

*load?

Oh, Attenuators. I didn't know that. *I guess that part of the circuit
is purely resistive or resistive/inductive.

(I just looked up "purely resistive")

An electric heating element, like a range element, toaster,
*heater without a fan, water heater, light bulb etc are examples.

* *They all have some theoretical small inductance, capacitance,
*too, *but it's so tiny it can be ignored. *The voltage and current

*through those devices is in phase.

I mean, you know. To be technical, in DC/AC/Grounding in electrician
school, they teach you that nothing is "purely resistive"

True. But electric heaters are near as dammit for practical purposes.

On Jan 14, 9:22*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 14, 3:23*pm, harry wrote:









On Jan 14, 2:17*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 14, 3:37*am, harry wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, "MarkK" wrote:

Ill repeat my reply here for the sake of those that filter google groups

thats actually a *real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. *It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. *If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark

You neglect the resistance of the generator windings.-

I don't see that he neglected the resistance of the
generator windings. *In a generator the resistance of
the windings is very small, negligible compared to
the resistance of any real load.

If there is no resistance in the load (ie purely inductive/
capacitive), it would be the only resistance in the circuit and hence
hugely important.

There is no such thing as a pure inductor BTW.

Uh, huh. *So, why did you just bring such a load
into the discussion?

Someone else did.

There are almost pure capacitors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Uh, no. *The generator winding resistance is still small. * Small is
still small, whether you have a purely resistance
load or a load that has a substantial component of
inductance or capcitance, like the welder in question
or a motor.

Uh............Yes. The resistance however small will be the only thing
in the circuit consuming any energy.

One considers the Inductive element of a circuit separately when doing
any calculations.

On Jan 15, 2:21*am, harry wrote:
On Jan 14, 9:22*pm, "
wrote:





On Jan 14, 3:23*pm, harry wrote:

On Jan 14, 2:17*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 14, 3:37*am, harry wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, "MarkK" wrote:

Ill repeat my reply here for the sake of those that filter google groups

thats actually a *real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

On Jan 15, 2:02*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 15, 2:21*am, harry wrote:









On Jan 14, 9:22*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 14, 3:23*pm, harry wrote:

On Jan 14, 2:17*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 14, 3:37*am, harry wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, "MarkK" wrote:

Ill repeat my reply here for the sake of those that filter google groups

thats actually a *real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. *It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. *If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark

You neglect the resistance of the generator windings.-

I don't see that he neglected the resistance of the
generator windings. *In a generator the resistance of
the windings is very small, negligible compared to
the resistance of any real load.

If there is no resistance in the load (ie purely inductive/
capacitive), it would be the only resistance in the circuit and hence
hugely important.

There is no such thing as a pure inductor BTW.

Uh, huh. *So, why did you just bring such a load
into the discussion?

Someone else did.

There are almost pure capacitors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Uh, no. *The generator winding resistance is still small. * Small is
still small, whether you have a purely resistance
load or a load that has a substantial component of
inductance or capcitance, like the welder in question
or a motor.

Uh............Yes. The resistance however small will be the only thing
in the circuit consuming any energy.

One considers the Inductive element of a circuit separately when doing
any calculations.- Hide quoted text -

And there you have it folks, after telling others here
that they have s*** for brains, the village idiot has once
again demonstrated that he's the one that is clueless.

Resistance is most certainly *not* the only place
energy is consumed. *Take a simple electric motor,
for example., like the one powering a water pump.
If resistance is the only place that consumes energy,
how do you account for the work done by the motor?
The motor isn't a resistance heater and the energy
is being used pushing the water. *According to your
logic, if we had a 1hp motor, all the power would
have to be in the form of resistance and we'd
actually have a 750watt heater.

We were discussing the electrical losses in a generator.
And the heating losses in the generator arise from the resistance of
the windings (copper losses) and the magnetic hysterisis losses of the
iron core.
If there was no resistance. there would be no copper losses.

On Jan 15, 12:43*pm, harry wrote:
On Jan 15, 2:02*pm, "
wrote:





On Jan 15, 2:21*am, harry wrote:

On Jan 14, 9:22*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 14, 3:23*pm, harry wrote:

On Jan 14, 2:17*pm, "
wrote:

On Jan 14, 3:37*am, harry wrote:

On Jan 13, 10:18*pm, "MarkK" wrote:

Ill repeat my reply here for the sake of those that filter google groups

thats actually a *real interesting question...

with a pure reactive (inductive or capacitive) load, the current flow
in the windings will cause a voltage drop but if i'm not mistaken
since there is no (or very little) actual power flow, there will not
be a load on the engine so the engine speed will not be a factor.

with a pure resistive load, the current through the windings will
cause a voltage drop AND there will be a load on the engine that will
try to slow it down. *It is the job of the speed governor on the
engine to keep the speed constant. *If the speed drops the voltage and
frequency will drop due to the engine speed drop.

So for a given amps, you may get more of a drop with a resistive load
depending on how tight the governor speed control the engine.

Mark

You neglect the resistance of the generator windings.-

I don't see that he neglected the resistance of the
generator windings. *In a generator the resistance of
the windings is very small, negligible compared to
the resistance of any real load.

If there is no resistance in the load (ie purely inductive/
capacitive), it would be the only resistance in the circuit and hence
hugely important.

There is no such thing as a pure inductor BTW.

Uh, huh. *So, why did you just bring such a load
into the discussion?

Someone else did.

There are almost pure capacitors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Uh, no. *The generator winding resistance is still small. * Small is
still small, whether you have a purely resistance
load or a load that has a substantial component of
inductance or capcitance, like the welder in question
or a motor.

Uh............Yes. The resistance however small will be the only thing
in the circuit consuming any energy.

One considers the Inductive element of a circuit separately when doing
any calculations.- Hide quoted text -

And there you have it folks, after telling others here
that they have s*** for brains, the village idiot has once
again demonstrated that he's the one that is clueless.

Resistance is most certainly *not* the only place
energy is consumed. *Take a simple electric motor,
for example., like the one powering a water pump.
If resistance is the only place that consumes energy,
how do you account for the work done by the motor?
The motor isn't a resistance heater and the energy
is being used pushing the water. *According to your
logic, if we had a 1hp motor, all the power would
have to be in the form of resistance and we'd
actually have a 750watt heater.

We were discussing the electrical losses in a generator.
And the heating losses in the generator *arise from the resistance of
the windings (copper losses) and the magnetic hysterisis losses of the
iron core.
If there was no resistance. there would be no copper losses.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nice try at back peddling. We weren't discussing the
resistance of anything. Mark made a post about the
voltage regulating characteristics of the generator.
Then you claimed that the resistance of the generator
matters. The guy is hooking up a frigging welder.
THAT is significant in regard to voltage regulation.
The very small resistance of the generator is not.

Then you went even further off the rails:

"Uh............Yes. The resistance however small will be the only
thing in the circuit consuming any energy.
One considers the Inductive element of a circuit separately when doing
any calculations. "

Clearly a circuit, is, well a circuit. It's *not* just
the generator windings. It's the generator plus the
load. Your statement means that
there is no other energy transfer in a circuit with that
welder or a motor, other than through resistance.
THAT is just wrong.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:16:00 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Jan 14, 10:49*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:19:27 -0800 (PST), harry









wrote:
On Jan 14, 2:01*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:28:47 -0800 (PST), harry

wrote:
On Jan 13, 5:50*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:30:53 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. *A small miller welder is causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage variation
being fairly proportional to load. *I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

All the generator cares is how much real power it takes to spin. It's not
measuring LC, just measuring the final outcome. 1-2 % really surprises me.

No, it cares about the current being supplied. *Heating is done by the
current, not the real power generated. *Generators are rated in KVA,
not watts.

Watts generated *(in any conductor = Amps squared X resistance.

What about "watts generated"? *Is English your first language?

Since you declined comment, I guess not.

Poor power factor increases amps which means more heat has to be
dissipated in the generator.
(in the whole circuit in fact)

...and your point?

The point is that if power factor is poor, the generator will have to
be derated you numbskull..

That's already been said. *Many times, moron.

Then why ask the question, **** fer brains?

It wasn't a question, dumb****. Really, is English not your first
language?

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
Tony Hwang wrote:


Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the
generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is
causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage
variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this
would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

Hi,
In real world situation you will have hard time finding purely resistive
load. Most loads are inductive affecting power factor. IMO, your
generator maybe border line under powered for the welder.



Just get an old electric range top. You can switch the loads on and off
as necessary.


Infinate burner controls don't present a steady load.





I did say old like in low, medium , high. or you could use a couple of
electric baseboard heaters.
John

"John" wrote in message ...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
Tony Hwang wrote:


Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

In a portable generator.

Does one type of load vs the other make it more difficult for a typical
portable generator to maintain constant voltage?
Esp at a current approaching the continuous current limit of the
generator.

I ask bec the mfr claims 1-2% regulation. A small miller welder is
causing
12%+ variation, within the current limitations, with the voltage
variation
being fairly proportional to load. I'm assuming a transformer load is
substantially inductive?

I haven't yet tested it with purely resistive loads, cuz, well, this
would
require a lot of heaters, a pita to wire up.

Hi,
In real world situation you will have hard time finding purely resistive
load. Most loads are inductive affecting power factor. IMO, your
generator maybe border line under powered for the welder.



Just get an old electric range top. You can switch the loads on and off
as necessary.


Infinate burner controls don't present a steady load.





I did say old like in low, medium , high. or you could use a couple of
electric baseboard heaters.


Or you could wire the elements up directly.