Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.
http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/P..._Softeners.pdf

Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.

Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he tested
a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he says makes it
30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is about the 200 ppm
calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well water at.

He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is hard,
so, he said, mine is super hard.

He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars.

The only things I 'see' are the pool has Calcium on the walls, and the
kitchen kettle gets a white coating on the bottom after a week of use. I
also hear the hot water tank bubbling (which he says is due to chunks of
the foot-thick coating cracking and then the water hits the super hot
bottom of the hot water heater and turns into steam).

While these are not good things, can't I get a home water softener for
less (much less?) than six thousand bucks installed?

Oh, he said I could rent it, at $600 installation + $55 a month.

On May 17, 4:54*pm, "Arklin K." wrote:
Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/P..._Softeners.pdf

Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.

Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
*http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he tested
a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he says makes it
30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is about the 200 ppm
calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well water at.

He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is hard,
so, he said, mine is super hard.

He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars.

The only things I 'see' are the pool has Calcium on the walls, and the
kitchen kettle gets a white coating on the bottom after a week of use. I
also hear the hot water tank bubbling (which he says is due to chunks of
the foot-thick coating cracking and then the water hits the super hot
bottom of the hot water heater and turns into steam).

While these are not good things, can't I get a home water softener for
less (much less?) than six thousand bucks installed?

Oh, he said I could rent it, at $600 installation + $55 a month.



The county changed our water recipe sometime last year and now we have
a lot more calcium and lime deposits than before. We have a water
softener - for the whole house - and it had always worked just fine.
It still does for the most part but I have scrub to get the white
spots off the sink and use Jet Dry in the dishwasher. My neighbors
have the same problem -- and they have water softeners, too. The
point is -- don't expect the water softener to stop your problem. It
may make it less -- but that's not for sure. And my water softener -
from Home Depot - was installed by my late husband. He was not the
greatest handyman so if he could do it you probably could, too. He
replaced another one -- so it wasn't something he had to do from
scratch. I don't remember the exact cost but do know it was no where
as expensive as what you are paying. It's a GE. Suggest you get
several bids --

As with any big decision. The standard advice applies.

* Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.
* Do some internet research
* Talk to three or four neighbors. Ask who they use, who they say to avoid
like the plague.
* Spend some time in scripture and prayer, and see what the Spirit directs.
* I prefer to choose the one who talks advantages, rather than scare
tactics.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Arklin K." wrote in message
...
Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700, Dottie wrote:

don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.

Interesting. The salesman said that it would take the calcium down to
zero grains and that every 600 gallons it would replenish itself.

He said the only thing I'd need to do is put fifteen pounds or so of salt
into the brine tank twice a year (for the reflush every 600 gallons).

He said the family uses about 75 gallons per person so that's why there
were two tanks.

And my water softener -
from Home Depot - was installed by my late husband.

From what I can gather, there is the existing pipe going into the tank,
plus a bypass valve to bypass the system for repairs plus the system
itself.

Since the system doesn't need electricity, all it needs is plumbing -
which I can do, unless there's something special needed.

Now to find an equivalent water softener that can handle 14 grains of
calcium (is that really a lot like the guy said ... or just normal)?

"Stormin Mormon" writes:

As with any big decision. The standard advice applies.

* Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.
* Do some internet research
* Talk to three or four neighbors. Ask who they use, who they say to avoid
like the plague.
* Spend some time in scripture and prayer, and see what the Spirit directs.
* I prefer to choose the one who talks advantages, rather than scare
tactics.

** If there are no special skills involved you'll save a LOT of money
doing it yourself.

--
Dan Espen

On May 17, 6:08*pm, Dan Espen wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" writes:
As with any big decision. The standard advice applies.

* Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.
* Do some internet research
* Talk to three or four neighbors. Ask who they use, who they say to avoid
like the plague.
* Spend some time in scripture and prayer, and see what the Spirit directs.
* I prefer to choose the one who talks advantages, rather than scare
tactics.

** If there are no special skills involved you'll save a LOT of money
doing it yourself.

--
Dan Espen



I probably should have added -- my water softener uses salt pellets.
I check it monthly to be sure it doesn't need more but it doesn't use
a lot of the salt. It is hooked up to electricity some way because it
has a dial with the time, the time to re-generate (2 a.m.) and some
other things. Like I said, we got a water softener like the one that
broke so it wasn't a big thing to replace it. Ask your neighbors what
they do. I live in Florida where people coming around, offering to
test your water and finding all kinds of awful things in it is a
common problem. The newspaper and TVs have a lot of stories about the
scams. So do be careful -- don't get taken advantage of.

Arklin,

Kinetico makes very good water softeners but there are many that are
much cheaper. Sears has softeners on sale often. $600 for installation?
Thats pretty high for a simple plumbing job.
Get more quotes.
These are ion exchange devices. You'll be replacing the Calcium with
twice as much Sodium. Sodium is a lot more soluble but you'll still have
some crud build up where water dries.
I'm not sure how having a pool affects your problem but if your softener
only delivers 600 gal. and then needs to recharge, you'll be filling your
pool for a long time

Dave M.

On 05/17/12 04:54 pm, Arklin K. wrote:

Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.
http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/P..._Softeners.pdf

Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.

Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he tested
a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he says makes it
30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is about the 200 ppm
calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well water at.

He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is hard,
so, he said, mine is super hard.

I don't know how much of our water hardness is due to calcium and how
much is due to other minerals, but ISTR that our "total hardness" is
about 150ppm. Whatever the cause of our hardness, a WaterBoss softener
costing less than $400 a few years ago, that I installed myself, seems
to take care of everything. Uses a $4 bag of salt every few months.

Perce

On Thu, 17 May 2012 17:40:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

As with any big decision. The standard advice applies.

* Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.

It's a good thing you mentioned that. I got estimates once. The guy
said $1600. I said, Really? He said, Yup. I said, Are you sure?
He said Yes. So I figured I had 3 estimates and that should be
enough.

You copied that off a Jay Leno routine?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"micky" wrote in message
...
* Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.

It's a good thing you mentioned that. I got estimates once. The guy
said $1600. I said, Really? He said, Yup. I said, Are you sure?
He said Yes. So I figured I had 3 estimates and that should be
enough.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 21:41:29 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700, Dottie wrote:

don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.

A softener replaces calcium ions with sodium ions, one for two. If water is
let to stand, sodium will be left (instead of calcium), causing spots.

Interesting. The salesman said that it would take the calcium down to
zero grains and that every 600 gallons it would replenish itself.

Automatic regeneration. It's generally set up to do it at night when you're
not likely to use water. It is noisy, if you care about such things.

He said the only thing I'd need to do is put fifteen pounds or so of salt
into the brine tank twice a year (for the reflush every 600 gallons).

Not buying that! I was using a hundred pounds a month.

He said the family uses about 75 gallons per person so that's why there
were two tanks.

And my water softener -
from Home Depot - was installed by my late husband.

From what I can gather, there is the existing pipe going into the tank,
plus a bypass valve to bypass the system for repairs plus the system
itself.

Since the system doesn't need electricity, all it needs is plumbing -
which I can do, unless there's something special needed.

Now to find an equivalent water softener that can handle 14 grains of
calcium (is that really a lot like the guy said ... or just normal)?

It's more than normal, since most city water is already treated but it's not a
"lot" for a well. Thirty or even forty grains is a lot, but not unheard of.
I few years ago, we lived in an apartment where the calcium came out as rocks.
*THAT* was hard water.

On 5/17/2012 4:54 PM, Arklin K. wrote:
Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.
http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/P..._Softeners.pdf

Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.

Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

I have an ECOWater softener and I would NEVER use it for pool or garden.
Our water is 28 grain and the softener is for indoor water use only.

I would never buy a softner from a big box store or sears. Do your
reasearch, many of them are poorly built with poor quality valves. Many
of them are built by Ecowater, HOWEVER Ecowater build their own branded
with 5 layers of resin and much better quality valves than the 1 layer
of resin for the sears/home depot crap.

Ours has filtration and we paid $2100 installed. We expect it to last
25 years. Make sure you do your research on Valves for water softeners

Our softener is programmed to flush out every 550 gallons. Frankly I
wouldn't waste softened water on outdoor use and it's not reccommended
for gardening..

Should mention that Culligan has had bankruptcy issues in the past and
you may have to research your local dealer. Some are great and some are
poor but I bet most are better that the big box stores.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT), Dottie
wrote:




The county changed our water recipe sometime last year and now we have
a lot more calcium and lime deposits than before. We have a water
softener - for the whole house - and it had always worked just fine.
It still does for the most part but I have scrub to get the white
spots off the sink and use Jet Dry in the dishwasher. My neighbors
have the same problem -- and they have water softeners, too. The
point is -- don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.

The softener need to be adjusted for the new water mix if it is higher
in calcium or other minerals. It must be regenerated more frequently
too.

A good softener properly adjusted for your water will give zero
hardness.


Suggest you get
several bids --

Don't buy on price alone. A good unit properly setup and serviced by
a reputable company is far more important than saving fifty bucks up
front. Find a reliable seller.

Apologies for the uncorrected spelling... I hit send too soon...

On Thu, 17 May 2012 21:41:29 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700, Dottie wrote:

don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.

Interesting. The salesman said that it would take the calcium down to
zero grains and that every 600 gallons it would replenish itself.

He said the only thing I'd need to do is put fifteen pounds or so of salt
into the brine tank twice a year (for the reflush every 600 gallons).

He's right, but that sounds light on the salt.




Since the system doesn't need electricity, all it needs is plumbing -
which I can do, unless there's something special needed.

It needs power for the timer and maybe a synchron motor for the
valves is so equipped. In most cases, you can just plug in a power
supply and can even use an extension cord.



Now to find an equivalent water softener that can handle 14 grains of
calcium (is that really a lot like the guy said ... or just normal)?

A bit high, but not a big deal. At work, we handle 21 grains and use
5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.

Arklin K. wrote:
Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.
http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/P..._Softeners.pdf

Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.

Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he tested
a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he says makes it
30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is about the 200 ppm
calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well water at.

He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is hard,
so, he said, mine is super hard.

He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars.

The only things I 'see' are the pool has Calcium on the walls, and the
kitchen kettle gets a white coating on the bottom after a week of use. I
also hear the hot water tank bubbling (which he says is due to chunks of
the foot-thick coating cracking and then the water hits the super hot
bottom of the hot water heater and turns into steam).

While these are not good things, can't I get a home water softener for
less (much less?) than six thousand bucks installed?

Oh, he said I could rent it, at $600 installation + $55 a month.
Hi,
One thing for sure is you need two resin tank system so always softened
water is ready w/o pause for regeneration.
Kinetico is like that and it does not need power to run it.

Not buying that! I was using a hundred pounds a month.



I use 100 gallons of water a day average. I add 80 pounds of salt to our
EcoWater 3500 every 4 months. It's programmed to regenerate every 550
gallons.

We use Windsor System Saver pellets only.

On 5/17/2012 10:55 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:




The county changed our water recipe sometime last year and now we have
a lot more calcium and lime deposits than before. We have a water
softener - for the whole house - and it had always worked just fine.
It still does for the most part but I have scrub to get the white
spots off the sink and use Jet Dry in the dishwasher. My neighbors
have the same problem -- and they have water softeners, too. The
point is -- don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.

The softener need to be adjusted for the new water mix if it is higher
in calcium or other minerals. It must be regenerated more frequently
too.

A good softener properly adjusted for your water will give zero
hardness.



Many good models have programming that can take care of the guess work
now. You can program in the hardness and the softener will monitor flow
rates daily and adjust it's regeneration accordingly

5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.

5000 gallons a day??

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:36:19 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:


5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.

5000 gallons a day??

You think 5000 gallons is a lot for a decent sized business?

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:24:01 -0400, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

A softener replaces calcium ions with sodium ions, one for two. If
water is let to stand, sodium will be left (instead of calcium), causing
spots.

Wow. He did NOT mention that!

He gave me a litany of the bad things that were happening due to the
calcium, from:
- spots on dishes
- film on shower stalls
- clogged pipes
- clogged faucets
- crusty kitchen kettles
- less efficient water heater due to a foot of calcium
- less efficient laundry soap & fabric softener
- better tasting water

Of all those, which would replacing calcium-water with sodium-water
actually solve?

BTW, about the only ones I care about are the kitchen kettle, the pipes,
and the water heater.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:18:40 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

I add 80 pounds of salt to our EcoWater 3500 every 4 months

How much does 240 pounds (80x3) of salt for a full year cost?

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:04:06 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

It needs power for the timer and maybe a synchron motor for the valves
is so equipped.

Apparently the valves are all water flow based.

The salesman even went to great length to explain how the ceramic disks
that determine the 600 gallon regeneration period are based only on usage
and not ever on time.

He also mentioned that the water is always the already-cleaned water so
that the disks themselves don't get gunked up.

http://www.kineticoofsiouxland.com/i...green-package/
kinetico-2060s

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:55:14 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

A good unit properly setup and serviced by a reputable company is far
more important than saving fifty bucks up front. Find a reliable
seller.

Fifty bucks is one thing, but this seems to be $6000 bucks.

Googling, I found this price which is $6,500 installed for the Kinetico
2060s (which I assume is the same or similar to the Kinetico 2060 I was
quoted for $6,000).

Seems high though - for 'just' a water softener ...

On Thu, 17 May 2012 18:08:45 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

** If there are no special skills involved you'll save a LOT of money
doing it yourself.

That's what I'm thinking.

It seems to be just plumbing. Nothing else.

I called Kinetico for a price quote for them to ship the tanks to me.
They said they'd get back to me but I have not received the call yet (it
was later in the day and I'm in a different time zone).

On Thu, 17 May 2012 16:12:03 -0700, Dottie wrote:

So do be careful -- don't get taken advantage of.

I am. That's why I'm asking you guys and gals!

I do know the water is hard as I can see the white stuff on the bottom of
the kettle after about a week of daily coffee making.

I can also see the white stuff in the garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

So, I can 'assume' what's in the pipes and in the water heaters ...

On Thu, 17 May 2012 19:12:26 -0400, Dave M. wrote:
These are ion exchange devices. You'll be replacing the Calcium with
twice as much Sodium. Sodium is a lot more soluble but you'll still have
some crud build up where water dries.

You're the second person to mention you replace 1 calcium with 2 sodiums.

Does the water taste salty?

Given the three things I care about most a
1. Clogging the pipes
2. Clogging the hot water heater
3. Staining the kettle and glass shower

May I ask:
Q: Would the double sodium water do those three things also?

I'm not sure how having a pool affects your problem

We discussed that. The salesman said he'd tie the softener to the input
AT the house. He said most pools are filled from the irrigation system
which is NOT tied to the house (he said).

I didn't design the house so I don't know but we could test it by hitting
the shutoff valve inside the house, he told me.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 19:53:36 -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

don't know how much of our water hardness is due to calcium and how
much is due to other minerals, but ISTR that our "total hardness" is
about 150ppm. Whatever the cause of our hardness, a WaterBoss softener
costing less than $400 a few years ago, that I installed myself, seems
to take care of everything. Uses a $4 bag of salt every few months.

I didn't know what ISTR meant so I googled it.
I Seem To Recall ...

The salesman told me to divide by 17 to convert so, in your case, 150 ppm
divided by 17 = about 9 grains of 'hardness'.

I, like you, have no idea if that's calcium or a mixture but I certainly
see pure white stuff as in this picture of my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

I "assume" that's calcium. The salesman said it was calcium. But he only
did one drop test which turned the water from red to blue in 12 to 14
drops where he said every drop was 1 grain of calcium.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:54:35 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:
I would never buy a softner from a big box store or sears. Do your
reasearch, many of them are poorly built with poor quality valves.

The salesman told me that the ones at Costco and Sears are membrane
filters and he said that, at 12 to 14 grains, they would get clogged in
months.

I don't know if that's true or not though ...


Ours has filtration and we paid $2100 installed.

Ah, that's about 1/3 the price I was quoted in the Silicon Valley!

Our softener is programmed to flush out every 550 gallons.
This one he tried to sell me would be programmed for 600 gallons. So
those numbers jive.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 21:09:04 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

you need two resin tank system so always softened water is ready w/o
pause for regeneration.
Kinetico is like that and it does not need power to run it.

Thanks for confirming that.

The 2060 Kinetico system 'is' a two-tank (actually three when you count
the brine tank) where one works then it switches to the second one for
cleaning and then back to the first - all with the water-operated valves
on top.

On Fri, 18 May 2012 04:57:22 +0000, Arklin K. wrote:

The 2060 Kinetico system 'is' a two-tank (actually three when you count
the brine tank) where one works then it switches to the second one for
cleaning and then back to the first - all with the water-operated valves
on top.

I forgot to mention that the salesman 'sized' the system based on the
size of the house and the pipes (e.g., I have smallish 1 inch or maybe
1.5 inch pipes he said).

http://www.kineticoofsiouxland.com/i...green-package/
kinetico-2060s

You need to do some googling. There are plenty of web sites that can
educate you better than I can. However, some comments from my
experience:

I never felt that the treated water tasted salty.

I had 22 grains of hardness. The metal spray arms on my dishwasher
were white from the calcium deposits and clogged regularly. After
installing a water softener, no more issues.

A water softener should be sized based on the number of people,
overall water usage and the water hardness. Pipe size mainly
determines the controller valve inlet size and the max flow possible.
If you plan on supplying soft water to your pool, you will need to
add that to your overall water usage. You will need a larger unit if
that is your plan. Most installations are set up to only treat inside
water usage. If sodium is a concern, you might want to run an
untreated supply to the kitchen.

I seriously doubt that hard water will ever clog your pipes. It will
cause buildup where the water can evaporate such as in the dishwater,
toilets, sinks, faucets, etc. I don't know about the water heater. I
suspect you could get some buildup (not a foot!) and lose some
efficiency and maybe a little bit of life.

They will tell you about all the money you will save on cleaning
products. In reality, you should be able to use less detergent in the
dishwasher and washing machine but the saving are not that great. Your
shower doors will be easier to clean.

My first water softener was from Sears for $500. Last about 7+ years
until the resin tank started to fail. Worked fine, never clogged. I
would not recommend Sears. The second unit was purchased on the web.
This one had a Fleck valve with demand driven regeneration. Cost about
$800 about 4 years ago and should last 10+ years. Very easy to install
but you do need power. The support from the dealer was excellent.

You will need way more than 15 pounds of salt.

Regeneration is usually done at night. During that time (roughly 1-2
hours), you will have untreated water. Who cares if at 2 am that the
water is hard.

These systems tend to reliable. If the controller fails, they can be
repaired or replaced. The resin does have a life span and can also be
replaced.

My recommendation is to consider buying on the web or maybe a local
dealer. Find a dealer that will help you properly size the unit. You
do not want to vastly oversize or undersize the unit. From what I
remember, the unit should be sized so that regeneration happens every
7-14 days. Stay with a high quality controller (Fleck is one popular
brand). Install it yourself or hire a plumber or handyman to do for
you. Make sure that you have a means to bypass the system if service
is needed. A lot of controllers have this as part of the system.
Unless there is more to the story, a $6000 dollar system is overkill.

On May 18, 2:37*am, noname87 wrote:
You need to do some googling. There are plenty of web sites that can
educate you better than I can. However, some comments from my
experience:

I never felt that the treated water tasted salty.

I had 22 grains of hardness. The metal spray arms on my dishwasher
were white from the calcium deposits and clogged regularly. After
installing a water softener, no more issues.

A water softener should be sized based on the number of people,
overall water usage and the water hardness. Pipe size mainly
determines the controller valve inlet size and the max flow possible.
If you plan on supplying *soft water to your pool, you will need to
add that to your overall water usage. You will need a larger unit if
that is your plan. Most installations are set up to only treat inside
water usage. If sodium is a concern, you might want to run an
untreated supply to the kitchen.

I seriously doubt that hard water will ever clog your pipes. *It will
cause buildup where the water can evaporate such as in the dishwater,
toilets, sinks, faucets, etc. I don't know about the water heater. I
suspect you could get some buildup (not a foot!) and lose some
efficiency and maybe a little bit of life.

They will tell you about all the money you will save on cleaning
products. In reality, you should be able to use less detergent in the
dishwasher and washing machine but the saving are not that great. Your
shower doors will be easier to clean.

My first water softener was from Sears for $500. Last about 7+ years
until the resin tank started to fail. Worked fine, never clogged. I
would not recommend Sears. The second unit was purchased on the web.
This one had a Fleck valve with demand driven regeneration. Cost about
$800 about 4 years ago and should last 10+ years. Very easy to install
but you do need power. The support from the dealer was excellent.

You will need way more than 15 pounds of salt.

Regeneration is usually done at night. During that time (roughly 1-2
hours), you will have untreated water. Who cares if at 2 am that the
water is hard.

These systems tend to reliable. If the controller fails, they can be
repaired or replaced. The resin does have a life span and can also be
replaced.

My recommendation is to consider buying on the web or maybe a local
dealer. Find a dealer that will help you properly size the unit. You
do not want to vastly oversize or undersize the unit. From what I
remember, the unit should be sized so that regeneration happens every
7-14 days. Stay with a high quality controller (Fleck is one popular
brand). Install it yourself or hire a plumber or handyman to do for
you. *Make sure that you have a means to bypass the system if service
is needed. A lot of controllers have this as part of the system.
Unless there is more to the story, a $6000 dollar system is overkill.

my dad and step mom have high blood pressure so the drinking water is
run thru a osmosis filter.

honestly i cant tell a difference in salt taste between osmosis and
softened.

the most interesting trouble they had was a osmosis filter system
failure while away on vacation. their home is in phoenix one floor on
a slab. they had water leaking out the doors when they got home from a
week cruise. the house had over a foot of water filling it.

they had trouble opening the doors, i think they had to break a window
to get in. the water pressure held all the doors shut. this was years
ago. a tank seam burst

dad wasnt upset homeowners insurance and the osmosis manufacturer paid
for wall repairs, a complete repaint, all new carpeting, a bunch of
new furniture, and a week at a nice hotel with jacuzzi while
everything was fixed..

On Thu, 17 May 2012 20:54:00 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote Re Do I need $6,000 water softener for
12 to 14 grains of calcium in well water?:

Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.
http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/P..._Softeners.pdf

This will work just as well:
http://www.sears.com/kenmore-ultra-h...2&blockType=G2

Installation cost will probably be about $400 or less. You'll have to
get a quote on that yourself.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:36:19 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:


5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.

5000 gallons a day??

Yes, business is slow right now. Mostly it should be 7500 gallons.
This is used to feed two industrial boilers. I buy salt 2000 pounds
at a time to.

Check out what a big hotel uses. Or bigger industry.

On Fri, 18 May 2012 04:40:44 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:55:14 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

A good unit properly setup and serviced by a reputable company is far
more important than saving fifty bucks up front. Find a reliable
seller.

Fifty bucks is one thing, but this seems to be $6000 bucks.

Googling, I found this price which is $6,500 installed for the Kinetico
2060s (which I assume is the same or similar to the Kinetico 2060 I was
quoted for $6,000).

Seems high though - for 'just' a water softener ...

For comparison, check an Ecowat4er dealer for a price
http://www.ecowater.com/

That is the system we have at work. Very reliable for about 10 years
now. We use thousands of gallons a day.

Most important part of a system is the valves. Cheap one fail often,
good ones rarely.

I've heard bad stories about Culligan and would avoid them. They also
went bankrupt a while back.

On 05/18/12 12:52 am, Arklin K. wrote:

don't know how much of our water hardness is due to calcium and how
much is due to other minerals, but ISTR that our "total hardness" is
about 150ppm. Whatever the cause of our hardness, a WaterBoss softener
costing less than $400 a few years ago, that I installed myself, seems
to take care of everything. Uses a $4 bag of salt every few months.

I didn't know what ISTR meant so I googled it.
I Seem To Recall ...

The salesman told me to divide by 17 to convert so, in your case, 150 ppm
divided by 17 = about 9 grains of 'hardness'.

I, like you, have no idea if that's calcium or a mixture but I certainly
see pure white stuff as in this picture of my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

I "assume" that's calcium. The salesman said it was calcium. But he only
did one drop test which turned the water from red to blue in 12 to 14
drops where he said every drop was 1 grain of calcium.

I would first get the water tested somewhere else -- preferably not by
someone who wants to sell you something. Or you can do it yourself with
test strips that the "home improvement" stores often have free for the
taking next to their water softeners; these may not be super-accurate,
but they should at least put you in the right ball park.

Our softened water doesn't taste salty, but we take our drinking water
from a point before the water softener, then filter it to remove crud
(mostly rust) and chlorine. I guess that won't work for you, because you
are concerned about deposits in your kettle -- but they should be able
to be removed with vinegar.

I think that there are under-sink water-filtration systems that
incorporate reverse osmosis as well. Maybe one of those would work for
your drinking/coffee-making water.

Perce

On 5/18/2012 12:35 AM, Arklin K. wrote:
On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:18:40 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

I add 80 pounds of salt to our EcoWater 3500 every 4 months

How much does 240 pounds (80x3) of salt for a full year cost?

I pay $4.88 CDN plus sales tax for a 20 lb bag at Walmart or one of the
local grocery stores

On 5/17/2012 11:52 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:36:19 -0400, wrote:


5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.

5000 gallons a day??

You think 5000 gallons is a lot for a decent sized business?


It may be it may not be? I was hoping he'd tell me the business though.
I just wanted to know what they used the water for, cleaning or
brewing beer or whatever.

Arklin K. wrote:
Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.
http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/P..._Softeners.pdf

Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.

Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8281448.jpg

The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he
tested a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he
says makes it 30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is
about the 200 ppm calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well
water at.

He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is
hard, so, he said, mine is super hard.

He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars.

The only things I 'see' are the pool has Calcium on the walls, and the
kitchen kettle gets a white coating on the bottom after a week of
use. I also hear the hot water tank bubbling (which he says is due to
chunks of the foot-thick coating cracking and then the water hits the
super hot bottom of the hot water heater and turns into steam).

While these are not good things, can't I get a home water softener for
less (much less?) than six thousand bucks installed?


Yes you can. For about $600-$900 plus installation. If you can cut and
join pipes you can DIY.

Get one with a Fleck valve.

--

dadiOH
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