Arklin K. wrote:
Get one with a Fleck valve.

I couldn't find "fleck valve" on Wikipedia - but the company has an
FAQ: http://www.fleckvalves.com/FAQ.htm

Which is better?

Totally hydraulic for regeneration or the fleck type with an electric
timer for regeneration?

Beats me. I can see a minor advantage to basing regeneration on the amount
of water actually used but have no idea as to what could go out of whack in
the metering. All in all, I like Thoreau's axiom of, "Simplify, simplify".

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Mon, 21 May 2012 01:11:17 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:


Get one with a Fleck valve.

I couldn't find "fleck valve" on Wikipedia - but the company has an FAQ:
http://www.fleckvalves.com/FAQ.htm

Which is better?

Totally hydraulic for regeneration or the fleck type with an electric
timer for regeneration?

Mine is the Fleck 5600SE

Solid state microprocessor with LED display. Time of day, Remaining
capacity, Regeneration cycle in process.

Compact turbine meter downflow or upflow regeneration cycles.

Choose from 3 modes of operation: immediate meter regeneration,
delayed meter regeneration, or delayed time clock regeneration.

NOVRAM valve status and memory backup.

Continuous flow rate if 20 gpm.

Backwash capacity handles tanks up to 12" diameter for softner
applications, 10" for filter applications

http://www.fleckvalves.com/Residential/ResidentialProducts/5600Residential/5600SEValve.htm

It is set to re-gen every 800 gallons or so of water usage. No
problems experienced with this valve.

On Mon, 21 May 2012 07:00:12 -0700, Oren wrote:

Mine is the Fleck 5600SE
It is set to re-gen every 800 gallons or so of water usage.

So does that mean the Fleck 5600SE regenerates on gallons or on time?

That is, does it assume, say, 60 gallons/day/person and then regenerate
when that calculation reaches 800 gallons (whether or not 800 gallons
were actually used) ... or does it actually count gallons?

I don't know if it matters - but I'm trying to figure this new Fleck
thing out.

Thanks,

On Mon, 21 May 2012 03:24:16 -0500, tangerine3 wrote:

have you had any of the problems that guy told you?

The 'only' problems I've had are the white stuff in the hose and the
bubbling of the hot water heater and the white stuff on the bottom of the
kitchen pot and the specks of 'sand' on the bottom of cups where water is
left in them to sit.

None of those really bother me (except maybe if I'm ruining my hot water
heater - although I read the post that said calcium is good for the hot
water heater).

Plus the pool has white sandy stuff on it but pool water needs calcium.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8229592.jpg

The repalcement of that 15 to 20 year old
tank cost around $200 for the tank, $40 for parts, and $120 labor. ($360
total). MUCH LESS THAN $6000

Agreed. Out here, you can't get a decent gas hot water tank for less than
about $600 to $800 or so (IIRC) as I replaced one a few years back
(bought the best I could find at OSH which was the major cost since I did
it myself - and had to also pay for the permit which ended up being a
waste of money).

This house has two of them hooked in series - so it's twice that if they
fail. I see I should be emptying them yearly! I never touched them!

Dump that salt water down
your septic, and the tank will be shot in a few years.

The salesman said I should just dump it outside with a long hose.

If you dont put that salt water in your septic, you will cause
environmental damage whereever it's dumped. Just picture yourself
dumping 2 or 3 50 lb bags of rock salt in your yard every couple weeks.

Hmmm... ok. This is not a good thing, I agree.

You said your only problem is your pool. Are you going to soften all
the water entering your pool?

While the pool is a problem, the salesman said we don't soften pool water
which is filled from the outside hoses.

So, yea, you may save $100 a year. Of course the salt is $9 a bag, and
at a minimum of 50 bags a year, thats $450. Plus costly septic damage,
or environmental yard damage.

You make a good case AGAINST water softeners. Very good case! I
appreciate the other side of the story. Very much so!

On Mon, 21 May 2012 05:57:47 -0400, Norm A. Brams wrote:

Whirlpool 40000-Grain Water Softener for $497.

Looks nice:
http://tinyurl.com/8425b4k

40000-Grain Water Softener

Ideal for households of 1-5 people
Maximum water hardness of 125 gpg
Clear water (ferrous) iron removal of 10 ppm
Demand initiated regeneration with salt saving technology
Super high flow rate - up to 1-1/4" super high flow valve
Only recharges when necessary, saving salt and water
Control display features: demand initiated regeneration,
water flow indicator and low salt indicator
Space saving single tank design
Warranty: 1-year full parts and labor, 3-year limited electronics,
10-year limited tanks

On Mon, 21 May 2012 15:44:43 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

On Mon, 21 May 2012 07:00:12 -0700, Oren wrote:

Mine is the Fleck 5600SE
It is set to re-gen every 800 gallons or so of water usage.

So does that mean the Fleck 5600SE regenerates on gallons or on time?

That is, does it assume, say, 60 gallons/day/person and then regenerate
when that calculation reaches 800 gallons (whether or not 800 gallons
were actually used) ... or does it actually count gallons?

I don't know if it matters - but I'm trying to figure this new Fleck
thing out.

Thanks,

Types of regeneration:

Time Clock Delayed
Meter Delayed
Meter Immediate

Mine is for 75 gallons per day per person. It re-gens at 800 gallons,
two people.

BTW - use salt crystals, instead of pellets. No more salt dams in the
bottom of the brine tank. I pay ~$4.50 or so for salt. Not $9.00 as
mentioned elsewhere.

http://www.fleckvalves.com/pdfs/se.pdf

On Mon, 21 May 2012 15:54:23 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:


So, yea, you may save $100 a year. Of course the salt is $9 a bag, and
at a minimum of 50 bags a year, thats $450. Plus costly septic damage,
or environmental yard damage.

You make a good case AGAINST water softeners. Very good case! I
appreciate the other side of the story. Very much so!

.... but, but ... a softener can reduce damage to appliances (washer,
dishwasher, ice maker, etc....

A former neighbor had no softener -- guess what he spent money on...

On Mon, 21 May 2012 09:09:14 -0700, Oren wrote:

Time Clock Delayed
Meter Delayed
Meter Immediate

Ah. I see. I'd put the Fleck valve on "Meter Immediate" and it would
regenerate at 800 gallons using the second tank during that time.

On Mon, 21 May 2012 16:49:11 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

On Mon, 21 May 2012 09:09:14 -0700, Oren wrote:

Time Clock Delayed
Meter Delayed
Meter Immediate

Ah. I see. I'd put the Fleck valve on "Meter Immediate" and it would
regenerate at 800 gallons using the second tank during that time.

What "second tank"? As to re-gen types, speak to someone with a higher
pay-grade than myself :-\

On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:01:52 -0700, Oren wrote:

What "second tank"? As to re-gen types, speak to someone with a higher
pay-grade than myself :-\

Oh. OK. I guess it regenerates from one tank at night when nobody is
using the water.

On Mon, 21 May 2012 15:54:23 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

The 'only' problems I've had are the white stuff in the hose and the
bubbling of the hot water heater and the white stuff on the bottom of the
kitchen pot and the specks of 'sand' on the bottom of cups where water is
left in them to sit.

If you're getting specks of sand, you might have the pump too low in the
well (too close to the bottom). This could be due to poor installation,
or the well might be accumulating sand (filling up) due to the way the
ground water is entering it. For example, my well is 300 ft deep, the
pump is at 280 ft. If you're pump is only a few feet from the bottom,
you will be sucking sand. BAD FOR THE PUMP TOO!

I'd have the well inspected by a professional well company before doing
anything else. If you have any data about the well from when the pump
was installed, it should say the depth. Normally they write this on the
manual that came with the pump and give it to the homeowner. If you
know that, you can actually measure the well depth with a weight
attached to a string.

None of those really bother me (except maybe if I'm ruining my hot water
heater - although I read the post that said calcium is good for the hot
water heater).

Plus the pool has white sandy stuff on it but pool water needs calcium.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8229592.jpg

Seeing the picture, I sure would not worry about that... If anything, it
provides a slip free surface. You'd be stepping on sand in a lake!!!

The repalcement of that 15 to 20 year old
tank cost around $200 for the tank, $40 for parts, and $120 labor. ($360
total). MUCH LESS THAN $6000

Agreed. Out here, you can't get a decent gas hot water tank for less than
about $600 to $800 or so (IIRC) as I replaced one a few years back
(bought the best I could find at OSH which was the major cost since I did
it myself - and had to also pay for the permit which ended up being a
waste of money).

This house has two of them hooked in series - so it's twice that if they
fail. I see I should be emptying them yearly! I never touched them!

In your case, I'd empty and flush them TWICE a year or more often. You
must use a lot of hot water to need two tanks. Did you say you're in
Florida? Or did I confuse this with another post on here? If you are
in FL, you should rig up a Solar Pre-heater for your hot water.
Basically a storage tank painted black and placed in the sun, with
piping from the cold water to the input of the hot water tank(s).

I'm in a northern climate and I made one. Saved a lot of money in fuel.
Except up here I have to constantly be on alert in late fall and early
spring, or the pipes freeze during cold snaps. And of course it cant be
used in winter. You can buy commercial units, or you cna make them from
odds and ends. I built mine from recycled materials. Cost me less than
$100.

Basically it's a flat black tank (BBQ grill paint), placed inside of a
glass enclosure (2 old storm windows in the shape of a V, with plywood
ends). The rest is just piping, and a ONE WAY valve to prevent heated
water going backward into the cold water system. I have mine in the
backyard in a sunny location. It sits on the lawn on top of some
concrete blocks with plywood across them. (some people put them on their
roofs).

Note: (You want FLAT black, not glossy paint, glossy will reflect some
of the heat away).

On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:04:14 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:01:52 -0700, Oren wrote:

What "second tank"? As to re-gen types, speak to someone with a higher
pay-grade than myself :-\

Oh. OK. I guess it regenerates from one tank at night when nobody is
using the water.

Right. The only tank that has the resin.

On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:04:14 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:01:52 -0700, Oren wrote:

What "second tank"? As to re-gen types, speak to someone with a higher
pay-grade than myself :-\

Oh. OK. I guess it regenerates from one tank at night when nobody is
using the water.

Unless it has a second tank. Larger systems than cannot be down for
any length of time will have two tanks and switch between them as one
regenerates.

Arklin K. wrote:

[blah-blah-blah]

The answer to your question is no.

On Mon, 21 May 2012 13:32:45 -0500, wrote:




If you're getting specks of sand, you might have the pump too low in the
well (too close to the bottom). This could be due to poor installation,
or the well might be accumulating sand (filling up) due to the way the
ground water is entering it.

We've stayed at a Villa in Italy a couple of times where there is a
lot of limestone and very had water. If you let the clear water stand
you will see solids after an hour or so.

If it is actual sand as you say, a filter should be in the line before
the softener.

On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:07:38 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Mon, 21 May 2012 13:32:45 -0500, wrote:




If you're getting specks of sand, you might have the pump too low in the
well (too close to the bottom). This could be due to poor installation,
or the well might be accumulating sand (filling up) due to the way the
ground water is entering it.

We've stayed at a Villa in Italy a couple of times where there is a
lot of limestone and very had water. If you let the clear water stand
you will see solids after an hour or so.

If it is actual sand as you say, a filter should be in the line before
the softener.

Yep, that can happen even if the pump is not too low, if there is
incoming water ABOVE the pump (which is quite normal). After checking
on the pump, I'd suggest a filter, even without a softner. That's a
small expense compared to the softener.

If you don't spend $6,000 on a water softener, then you don't really care about your family.

The only advantages I see to an expensive Kinetico are that you'll have soft water 24 hours a day, as opposed to 22 hours a day with other softeners, and the thing will work even during electrical blackouts.

Get the 2nd cheapest type of conventional softer sold by Home Depot, Sears, or Lowe's, about $400-600, which will be a demand regulated, timer delayed model. The very cheapest type of softeners don't have demand regulation.

"Arklin K." wrote in message
...

You make a good case AGAINST water softeners. Very good case! I
appreciate the other side of the story. Very much so!

Except if the water is so hard it causes build up in pipes. We had serious
plumbing issues and spent a lot of money replacing pipes and failed washer
hoses. And, since we've had soft water our clothing lasts longer and my skin
is not dry and itchy anymore, even in the winter! I'll never go back to hard
water. Also, we have a septic tank and no issues for the last 25 years.