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  #1   Report Post  
much_to_do
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


  #2   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the tooth
fairy.

Christian.


  #3   Report Post  
Nick Brooks
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at 800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

DO IT ASAP

Nick
  #4   Report Post  
Martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"much_to_do" wrote in message
. ..
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their

own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


Got a CombiMate on mine, doses the water with PolyPhosphate.
It works very well, but, bath water is more then a little scummy, doesn't
bother me but could easily bother others.


  #5   Report Post  
Ed Sirett
 
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Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the tooth
fairy.

ROFL
Asking how it works will surely cause it to cease doing so!

The manufacturers may quibble about feeding the boiler softened water but
AFAIK there is no good reason why this should cause any problems.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html




  #6   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the

tooth
fairy.


I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

ROFL
Asking how it works will surely cause it to cease doing so!

The manufacturers may quibble about feeding the boiler softened water but
AFAIK there is no good reason why this should cause any problems.



  #7   Report Post  
RichardS
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the

tooth
fairy.


I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

....and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.



--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk


  #8   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the

tooth
fairy.


I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.


Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.


  #9   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"much_to_do" wrote in message
. ..
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their

own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


I have an electronic box made by Aqua Dial. It is about 80% plus
successful. I also have a phosphor canister descaler. This is better. I
haven't put both together. but it would be a nice experiment.


  #10   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their

own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at 800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC


That 800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.




  #11   Report Post  
Ed Sirett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:34:10 +0000, IMM wrote:


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.


Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.


Do you seriously think that the person specifiying what to install was an
engineer? Probably not even an architect, might even have been left to the
whim of the installer. Especially if there was a something to be gained
from doing so.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html


  #12   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:34:10 +0000, IMM wrote:


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing

from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in

the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.


Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.


Do you seriously think that the person specifiying what to install was an
engineer? Probably not even an architect, might even have been left to the
whim of the installer. Especially if there was a something to be gained
from doing so.


There was a lot of them about. It appeared it was decision from the top
engineer. They don't do that unless they have some sort of evidence of
effectiveness.

Hospitals use very large electronic descalers. They used to use large boxes
on the wall. I first came across them over 20 years ago, and they were very
effective. They were made in Holland. I think they still do on some steam
calorifiers.


  #13   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:34:10 +0000, IMM wrote:


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing

from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in

the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.


Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.


Do you seriously think that the person specifiying what to install was an
engineer? Probably not even an architect, might even have been left to the
whim of the installer. Especially if there was a something to be gained
from doing so.


see:
http://www.gas-news.co.uk/discus/messages/18/476.html? search on Liff and
Scalewatcher

and..
http://www.plumbingpages.com/forums/...m=14&Topic=474
search on Liff and Scalewatcher



  #14   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:57:52 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the

tooth
fairy.


I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.


... and they let you out?



ROFL
Asking how it works will surely cause it to cease doing so!

The manufacturers may quibble about feeding the boiler softened water but
AFAIK there is no good reason why this should cause any problems.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #15   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:57:52 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the

tooth
fairy.


I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.


.. and they let you out?


They thought me so brilliant they didn't want me to go.





  #16   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:34:10 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.


Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.

Yes but we know that you believe in the tooth fairy..


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #17   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:37:05 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their

own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at 800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC


That 800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.

It doesn't matter how many you put in, they won't soften the water.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #18   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:34:10 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing

from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in

the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.


Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.

Yes but we know that you believe in the tooth fairy..


Go to those links I gave. Men in the trade. Where the consensual opinion
was: soften water go salt, descale go Scalewatcher electronic.

One said the salt ones were a waste of time. I agree.


  #19   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:37:05 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from

their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at 800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC


That 800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.

It doesn't matter how many you put in, they won't soften the water.


It is pretty certain he wants descaled water.


  #20   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:40:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:34:10 +0000, IMM wrote:


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but
just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing

from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in

the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.

Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.


Do you seriously think that the person specifiying what to install was an
engineer? Probably not even an architect, might even have been left to the
whim of the installer. Especially if there was a something to be gained
from doing so.


see:
http://www.gas-news.co.uk/discus/messages/18/476.html? search on Liff and
Scalewatcher


Have you read the rest of the articles on that page? Are these people
meant to be professional installers? They look more like a
convention of court jesters to me.

They need to have seminars on how condensing boilers work? Good
grief!



and..
http://www.plumbingpages.com/forums/...m=14&Topic=474
search on Liff and Scalewatcher



nothing there apart from a few articles from "professionals" who
should know better and one from a manufacturer.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


  #21   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:58:27 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:57:52 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.


.. and they let you out?


They thought me so brilliant they didn't want me to go.


Didn't Randle Patrick McMurphy say something like that.?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #22   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:40:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:34:10 +0000, IMM wrote:


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG

but
just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing

from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe

in
the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water

heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.

Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.

Do you seriously think that the person specifiying what to install was

an
engineer? Probably not even an architect, might even have been left to

the
whim of the installer. Especially if there was a something to be gained
from doing so.


see:
http://www.gas-news.co.uk/discus/messages/18/476.html? search on Liff

and
Scalewatcher


Have you read the rest of the articles on that page? Are these people
meant to be professional installers? They look more like a
convention of court jesters to me.

They need to have seminars on how condensing boilers work? Good
grief!


I only looked atbthe Liff bits.

and..
http://www.plumbingpages.com/forums/...m=14&Topic=474
search on Liff and Scalewatcher


nothing there apart from a few articles from "professionals" who
should know better


You mean they state the electronic Scalewatchers work from experience, and
one says salt softeners are "pants". I will use Cockneyisms to communicate
with you better.


  #23   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:01:07 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


...

Go to those links I gave. Men in the trade.


If these are men in the trade, then I can see why DIY is attractive.

Where the consensual opinion
was: soften water go salt, descale go Scalewatcher electronic.


I'm not sure that they would even know what consensual sex is.


One said the salt ones were a waste of time. I agree.

I think you misread it. The only reference I could find that talked
about waste referred to waste of money and in connection with
electronic devices. Can you point to the specific article, the
author and date?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #24   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:58:27 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:57:52 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in

the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

.. and they let you out?


They thought me so brilliant they didn't want me to go.


Didn't Randle Patrick McMurphy say something like that.?


I don't know, was he at the same Hossy?


  #25   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:02:41 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:37:05 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from

their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at 800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

That 800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.

It doesn't matter how many you put in, they won't soften the water.


It is pretty certain he wants descaled water.


Well, let's see now. Title of thread:

"Water Softener for combi in very hard water area"



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


  #26   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:02:41 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:37:05 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from

their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper"

(ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at 800 but I

wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

That 800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.

It doesn't matter how many you put in, they won't soften the water.


It is pretty certain he wants descaled water.


Well, let's see now. Title of thread:

"Water Softener for combi in very hard water area"


He is confused with terminology. He doesn't want his system scaling up.


  #27   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:01:07 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Go to those links I gave. Men in the trade.


If these are men in the trade, then I can see why DIY is attractive.


They generally were quite knowledgeable. They did say salt softeners are
"pants".

Where the consensual opinion
was: soften water go salt, descale go Scalewatcher electronic.


I'm not sure that they would even know what consensual sex is.


Andy, are you going through a mid life crisis?

One said the salt ones were a waste of time. I agree.


I think you misread it. The only reference I could find that talked
about waste referred to waste of money and in connection with
electronic devices. Can you point to the specific article, the
author and date?


Some posts I picked up...


thescruff -- 10-30-2002 @ 10:56 PM
The school of Water Sciences ( Cranfield University )have recently produced
a do***ent to the effects of antiscale magnectic treatment.

Scientific research proves my theory, I Quote. Antiscale magnetic Treatment
and other physical methods of scale suppression remain controversial and are
still labled as gadgetry in some scientific circles.

Should anyone require the full 5 page report I could email this instead of
wasting the forums space.

The British Water Co also confirm this report.
A.. A water softener softens the water.
B.. A magnetic device prevent scale.

thescruff



Dan -- 10-28-2002 @ 9:20 PM
Personally I have only been using it [Scalewatcher] for a few months - but
my bathroom engineer (who is friends with the UK distribution manager) has
used them for quite a while. I have been very happy with the results so far.
In fact the last customer to have one phoned me today (I mentioned her
scaled up Response in another post). I told her to leave it for a while
before paying - to make sure she was happy - and she was. Can't say fairer
than that .

As for salt softeners, they are not worth their salt... (oh dear it's
getting late ).

They are expensive to buy, expensive to run, and need a separate drinking
supply. When you can fit an effective electronic unit for less than the cost
of a salt unit why bother? There is also much less to go wrong. There is
also the space consideration. They are not small, and the bags of salt weigh
a fair bit too.

Another thing I always thought a bit of an annoyance for cusotmers, is the
need to recharge over night, producing waste water. Not much use if you are
on a meter.

On a fairer note, I know these units are a bit more expensive than some
others on the market, but I do not know how much the others go towards
eliminating exisitng scale, and some of them require several units fitted in
some installations. You would need a large house to require more than one of
the larger models of this ScaleWatcher; but then they cost more.

At the end of the day, I and my engineers like them, but they are not the
only ones on the market, and they are not suitable for everyone.

Regards...

Dan Robinson
Director - Jennings Heating & Plumbing.
CORGI 138845
Tel: 0208 961 5936
email:



  #28   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:28:57 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




see:
http://www.gas-news.co.uk/discus/messages/18/476.html? search on Liff

and
Scalewatcher


Have you read the rest of the articles on that page? Are these people
meant to be professional installers? They look more like a
convention of court jesters to me.

They need to have seminars on how condensing boilers work? Good
grief!


I only looked atbthe Liff bits.


It's always important to validate the credentials of the contributor
and the context before quoting. It is somewhat concerning that
these individuals are having to go to condensing boiler seminars when
they are supposed to be industry or trade professionals. Condensing
boilers are hardly new technology are they?



and..
http://www.plumbingpages.com/forums/...m=14&Topic=474
search on Liff and Scalewatcher


nothing there apart from a few articles from "professionals" who
should know better


You mean they state the electronic Scalewatchers work from experience, and
one says salt softeners are "pants". I will use Cockneyisms to communicate
with you better.


If I do a word search for "pants" on both pages that you mention, it
does not appear as far as I can see. Can you clarify......



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #29   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:29:57 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:58:27 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:57:52 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but

just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in

the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

.. and they let you out?

They thought me so brilliant they didn't want me to go.


Didn't Randle Patrick McMurphy say something like that.?


I don't know, was he at the same Hossy?

He could easily have been.....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #30   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:28:57 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




see:
http://www.gas-news.co.uk/discus/messages/18/476.html? search on Liff

and
Scalewatcher

Have you read the rest of the articles on that page? Are these people
meant to be professional installers? They look more like a
convention of court jesters to me.

They need to have seminars on how condensing boilers work? Good
grief!


I only looked atbthe Liff bits.


It's always important to validate the credentials of the contributor
and the context before quoting. It is somewhat concerning that
these individuals are having to go to condensing boiler seminars when
they are supposed to be industry or trade professionals. Condensing
boilers are hardly new technology are they?


It was a corrosion, and one maker gave a brief talk on how condensers work.

and..
http://www.plumbingpages.com/forums/...m=14&Topic=474
search on Liff and Scalewatcher


nothing there apart from a few articles from "professionals" who
should know better


You mean they state the electronic Scalewatchers work from experience,

and
one says salt softeners are "pants". I will use Cockneyisms to

communicate
with you better.


If I do a word search for "pants" on both pages that you mention, it
does not appear as far as I can see. Can you clarify......


The word "pants" is for your comprehension.




  #31   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:37:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



It is pretty certain he wants descaled water.


Well, let's see now. Title of thread:

"Water Softener for combi in very hard water area"


He is confused with terminology. He doesn't want his system scaling up.


Here's the original question:

"I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence."

Anyway, how can you have "descaled water". The scale occurs as a
deposit on solid surfaces. A phosphor descaler will address that but
not soften the water.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #32   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:56:30 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:28:57 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




see:
http://www.gas-news.co.uk/discus/messages/18/476.html? search on Liff
and
Scalewatcher

Have you read the rest of the articles on that page? Are these people
meant to be professional installers? They look more like a
convention of court jesters to me.

They need to have seminars on how condensing boilers work? Good
grief!

I only looked atbthe Liff bits.


It's always important to validate the credentials of the contributor
and the context before quoting. It is somewhat concerning that
these individuals are having to go to condensing boiler seminars when
they are supposed to be industry or trade professionals. Condensing
boilers are hardly new technology are they?


It was a corrosion, and one maker gave a brief talk on how condensers work.


?????


and..
http://www.plumbingpages.com/forums/...m=14&Topic=474
search on Liff and Scalewatcher

nothing there apart from a few articles from "professionals" who
should know better

You mean they state the electronic Scalewatchers work from experience,

and
one says salt softeners are "pants". I will use Cockneyisms to

communicate
with you better.


If I do a word search for "pants" on both pages that you mention, it
does not appear as far as I can see. Can you clarify......


The word "pants" is for your comprehension.


I know what it means.
So, the article reference please.........


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #33   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:56:30 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:28:57 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




see:
http://www.gas-news.co.uk/discus/messages/18/476.html? search on

Liff
and
Scalewatcher

Have you read the rest of the articles on that page? Are these

people
meant to be professional installers? They look more like a
convention of court jesters to me.

They need to have seminars on how condensing boilers work? Good
grief!

I only looked atbthe Liff bits.

It's always important to validate the credentials of the contributor
and the context before quoting. It is somewhat concerning that
these individuals are having to go to condensing boiler seminars when
they are supposed to be industry or trade professionals. Condensing
boilers are hardly new technology are they?


It was on corrosion, and one maker gave a brief talk on how condensers

work.

?????


and..

http://www.plumbingpages.com/forums/...m=14&Topic=474
search on Liff and Scalewatcher

nothing there apart from a few articles from "professionals" who
should know better

You mean they state the electronic Scalewatchers work from experience,

and
one says salt softeners are "pants". I will use Cockneyisms to

communicate
with you better.


If I do a word search for "pants" on both pages that you mention, it
does not appear as far as I can see. Can you clarify......


The word "pants" is for your comprehension.


I know what it means.
So, the article reference please.........


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl



  #34   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:49:50 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:01:07 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Go to those links I gave. Men in the trade.


If these are men in the trade, then I can see why DIY is attractive.


They generally were quite knowledgeable. They did say salt softeners are
"pants".

Where the consensual opinion
was: soften water go salt, descale go Scalewatcher electronic.


I'm not sure that they would even know what consensual sex is.


Andy, are you going through a mid life crisis?

One said the salt ones were a waste of time. I agree.


I think you misread it. The only reference I could find that talked
about waste referred to waste of money and in connection with
electronic devices. Can you point to the specific article, the
author and date?


Some posts I picked up...


thescruff -- 10-30-2002 @ 10:56 PM
The school of Water Sciences ( Cranfield University )have recently produced
a do***ent to the effects of antiscale magnectic treatment.

Scientific research proves my theory, I Quote. Antiscale magnetic Treatment
and other physical methods of scale suppression remain controversial and are
still labled as gadgetry in some scientific circles.

Should anyone require the full 5 page report I could email this instead of
wasting the forums space.

The British Water Co also confirm this report.
A.. A water softener softens the water.
B.. A magnetic device prevent scale.

thescruff




chriswatts -- 10-31-2002 @ 11:02 PM
Just as well it's Halloween. Some people believe in Voodoo.

The magnetic / electronic / electrolytic water "conditioners" have
less effect on hardness than my pee would after a few pints of IPA.

If they are so effective how come everyone hasn't got a magnet on
their gas pipe (20% savings claimed) or on their car fuel pipe
(similar claims in the paper).

The only way to truly soften water, i.e. remove the calcium is by ion
exchange. This means an old fashioned water softener. The running
costs are a lot less than the savings made in soap / washing powder/
shampoo & cleaning time.
It does't matter if the calcium is suspended if you evapoirate the
water off as it will remain behind.

I have fitted hundreds of softeners over the years and the newer
metered models are indeed better than the earlier ones, but they still
use the same principal.

As regards to the drinking water issue, whilst I would not advocate
drinking gallons of softened water due to the increased sodium levels,
it should be noted that it is still a lot less that the sodium content
of cows' milk.

Chris Watts AIP RP

C.Watts Plumbing & Htg
Pinner
HA5 2BU












Dan -- 10-28-2002 @ 9:20 PM
Personally I have only been using it [Scalewatcher] for a few months - but
my bathroom engineer (who is friends with the UK distribution manager) has
used them for quite a while.


"Familial" connections to the UK distribution manager........

Further on he goes on to say:

"The Scale watcher DOES NOT - as scruff says soften water. It creates
the same effect as softened water without adding anything to the
supply. It mearly (for want of a better term) alters the water passing
through it. "


Which is, of course, complete nonsense.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #35   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:49:50 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:01:07 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Go to those links I gave. Men in the trade.

If these are men in the trade, then I can see why DIY is attractive.


They generally were quite knowledgeable. They did say salt softeners are
"pants".

Where the consensual opinion
was: soften water go salt, descale go Scalewatcher electronic.

I'm not sure that they would even know what consensual sex is.


Andy, are you going through a mid life crisis?

One said the salt ones were a waste of time. I agree.

I think you misread it. The only reference I could find that talked
about waste referred to waste of money and in connection with
electronic devices. Can you point to the specific article, the
author and date?


Some posts I picked up...


thescruff -- 10-30-2002 @ 10:56 PM
The school of Water Sciences ( Cranfield University )have recently

produced
a do***ent to the effects of antiscale magnectic treatment.

Scientific research proves my theory, I Quote. Antiscale magnetic

Treatment
and other physical methods of scale suppression remain controversial and

are
still labled as gadgetry in some scientific circles.

Should anyone require the full 5 page report I could email this instead

of
wasting the forums space.

The British Water Co also confirm this report.
A.. A water softener softens the water.
B.. A magnetic device prevent scale.

thescruff




chriswatts -- 10-31-2002 @ 11:02 PM
Just as well it's Halloween. Some people believe in Voodoo.

The magnetic / electronic / electrolytic water "conditioners" have
less effect on hardness than my pee would after a few pints of IPA.

If they are so effective how come everyone hasn't got a magnet on
their gas pipe (20% savings claimed) or on their car fuel pipe
(similar claims in the paper).

The only way to truly soften water, i.e. remove the calcium is by ion
exchange. This means an old fashioned water softener. The running
costs are a lot less than the savings made in soap / washing powder/
shampoo & cleaning time.
It does't matter if the calcium is suspended if you evapoirate the
water off as it will remain behind.

I have fitted hundreds of softeners over the years and the newer
metered models are indeed better than the earlier ones, but they still
use the same principal.

As regards to the drinking water issue, whilst I would not advocate
drinking gallons of softened water due to the increased sodium levels,
it should be noted that it is still a lot less that the sodium content
of cows' milk.

Chris Watts AIP RP

C.Watts Plumbing & Htg
Pinner
HA5 2BU



he gave no evidence and the only dissenter.


Dan -- 10-28-2002 @ 9:20 PM
Personally I have only been using it [Scalewatcher] for a few months -

but
my bathroom engineer (who is friends with the UK distribution manager)

has
used them for quite a while.


"Familial" connections to the UK distribution manager........


Not him an employee, or subbie.

Further on he goes on to say:

"The Scale watcher DOES NOT - as scruff says soften water. It creates
the same effect as softened water without adding anything to the
supply. It mearly (for want of a better term) alters the water passing
through it. "


Which is, of course, complete nonsense.


I think he mean descale rather than soften. he has satisfied customers too,
and will refund.




  #36   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:45:30 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




he gave no evidence and the only dissenter.


There was nothing of any substance from anybody who posted in that
thread.



Dan -- 10-28-2002 @ 9:20 PM
Personally I have only been using it [Scalewatcher] for a few months -

but
my bathroom engineer (who is friends with the UK distribution manager)

has
used them for quite a while.


"Familial" connections to the UK distribution manager........


Not him an employee, or subbie.


Which is why I said "familial". As he admits himself, he has only
been using the thing for a few months.




Further on he goes on to say:

"The Scale watcher DOES NOT - as scruff says soften water. It creates
the same effect as softened water without adding anything to the
supply. It mearly (for want of a better term) alters the water passing
through it. "


Which is, of course, complete nonsense.


I think he mean descale rather than soften.


Who knows? the comments are totally confused and hardly inspire any
confidence.

he has satisfied customers too,


He's hardly likely to post that he has dissatisfied customers, now is
he?



and will refund.

good to hear....


..andy

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  #37   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:45:30 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


he gave no evidence and the only dissenter.


There was nothing of any substance from anybody who posted in that
thread.


Andy, how would you know.


Dan -- 10-28-2002 @ 9:20 PM
Personally I have only been using it [Scalewatcher] for a few months -

but
my bathroom engineer (who is friends with the UK distribution manager)

has
used them for quite a while.

"Familial" connections to the UK distribution manager........


Not him an employee, or subbie.


Which is why I said "familial". As he admits himself, he has only
been using the thing for a few months.


Personally. yet he has had excellent results in the field with customers.
That is why he got one.

Further on he goes on to say:

"The Scale watcher DOES NOT - as scruff says soften water. It creates
the same effect as softened water without adding anything to the
supply. It mearly (for want of a better term) alters the water passing
through it. "


Which is, of course, complete nonsense.


I think he mean descale rather than soften.


Who knows? the comments are totally confused and hardly inspire any
confidence.

he has satisfied customers too,


He's hardly likely to post that he has dissatisfied customers, now is
he?


Why not. he could say. Oh Tosh! these don't work I have tried them. he
never and said the opposite.

and will refund.

good to hear....


And the customers said it worked and kept it.


  #38   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

Nick Brooks wrote:

much_to_do wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at 800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

DO IT ASAP

Nick


Any decent ion exchange unit that does he flow rate you will need - and
that IS important for a combi on mains pressure feeding showers - will
make the world of difference.

DO IT ASAP.
As the man said.


  #39   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:14:00 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:45:30 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


he gave no evidence and the only dissenter.


There was nothing of any substance from anybody who posted in that
thread.


Andy, how would you know.


It seemed pretty obvious to me that this was a thread of the blind
leading the blind.

Put it another way.

I know from personal experience that ion exchange softeners work. I
can test the water and I know that less detergent is required than
without. I also know the chemical processes by which they work.

I know from personal experience that phosphate dosing works. I have
seen the results of that and again there is a well understood
mechanism.


I have seen from the experience of neighbours using exactly the same
water supply that I have that electronic and magnetic conditioners
don't work. Everybody that has bought one has taken it back for a
refund. There has never been a reliable scientific explanation of
why the mechanisms used would work in a domestic setting.
At best, there are a few people who claim that there is some positive
effect. Given that, and the efficacy of the other two methods,
the exercise seems pointless.





Personally. yet he has had excellent results in the field with customers.
That is why he got one.


When somebody admits they have a personal contact with the supplier of
something, I take that into account when they sing the praises of it,
that this might not be an unbiased view.





And the customers said it worked and kept it.

or they didn't notice that there was no effect but didn't care.


..andy

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  #40   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water Softener for combi in very hard water area


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:14:00 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:45:30 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


he gave no evidence and the only dissenter.

There was nothing of any substance from anybody who posted in that
thread.


Andy, how would you know.


It seemed pretty obvious to me that this was a thread of the blind
leading the blind.

Put it another way.

I know from personal experience that ion exchange softeners work.


No one said they didn't work.

I can test the water and I know that less detergent is required than
without. I also know the chemical processes by which they work.


I know from personal experience that phosphate dosing works. I have
seen the results of that and again there is a well understood
mechanism.

I have seen from the experience of neighbours using exactly the same
water supply that I have that electronic and magnetic conditioners
don't work.


Mine works. And these pros tended to agree they worked too, who have
greater exposure than you.

Everybody that has bought one has taken it back for a
refund.


I never, and the poster said he customers do send them back.

Personally. yet he has had excellent results in the field with

customers.
That is why he got one.


When somebody admits they have a personal contact with the supplier of
something,


He knew someone who did. Not himself.

I take that into account when they sing the praises of it,
that this might not be an unbiased view.


And the customers said it worked and kept it.

or they didn't notice that there was no effect but didn't care.


If you read it he was called to a scaled up Responses, descaled it and
fitted a Scalewatcher. The customer would know the difference.


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