One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local wacko
radio station.

On May 15, 4:35*am, micky wrote:
One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. *Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. * Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?

BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local wacko
radio station.

"Smart meter" can cover a variety of things.

They may vary the price of electricity at different times.

They might be able to cut you off for non-payment.

They enable the meter to be remotely read (by many technologies not
just by RF) If it is RF they may use the mobile phone network.

They may be able to "load shed" you if there is a electricity supply
shortage problem

They may also function as an export meter if you have a PV array.

It's likely the function will be easily changeable too, so it may mean
something completely different in the future.

On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400, micky
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local wacko
radio station.

I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee because
someone would have to come and read it.

wrote:

On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400, micky
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local wacko
radio station.

There are at least three schools of thought

1. they are a radiation hazard since they RF the data back to the host
2. they are a privacy problem because they can send usage data in real
time
3. they do not read low like a 40 year old, worn out mechanical meter
so you bill will go up.

#3 is probably driving the other two.

Agree-- but you missed
#4 - they are new so they must be evil.

I was surprised that I didn't notice when they replaced my 30yr old
electric meter that I didn't notice a spike.

My water went up a bit when they replaced that 40+ yr old one-- but
not enough to worry about.

Jim

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local wacko
radio station.

I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee because
someone would have to come and read it.


One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

On 5/15/2012 7:21 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

1. they are a radiation hazard since they RF the data back to the host
2. they are a privacy problem because they can send usage data in real
time
3. they do not read low like a 40 year old, worn out mechanical meter
so you bill will go up.

#3 is probably driving the other two.

Agree-- but you missed
#4 - they are new so they must be evil.


My thoughts too.


I was surprised that I didn't notice when they replaced my 30yr old
electric meter that I didn't notice a spike.

Same here, our old meter was around 30 years old when they replaced it
with a smart meter maybe two years ago. There was no difference in the bill.


My water went up a bit when they replaced that 40+ yr old one-- but
not enough to worry about.

Jim

On May 15, 8:44*am, George wrote:
On 5/15/2012 7:21 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

1. they are a radiation hazard since they RF the data back to the host
2. they are a privacy problem because they can send usage data in real
time
3. they do not read low like a 40 year old, worn out mechanical meter
so you bill will go up.

#3 is probably driving the other two.

Agree-- but you missed
#4 - they are new so they must be evil.

My thoughts too.



I was surprised that I didn't notice when they replaced my 30yr old
electric meter that I didn't notice a spike.

Same here, our old meter was around 30 years old when they replaced it
with a smart meter maybe two years ago. There was no difference in the bill.





My water went up a bit when they replaced that 40+ yr old one-- but
not enough to worry about.

Jim

actually its a spying thing, they can pick up conversations in the
home, and send it back over the power line. thank terrorists

micky wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters.

Is there any reason to reject one?

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that they
allow for time-of-use billing.

In other words, the cost of electricity changes during the course of a
day, and smart meters allow utility companies to more equitably charge
individual home owers for the electricity they use.

But this represents a false economy when applied on such a small scale
as the individual home.

The REAL unspoken reason for smart meters is that they save manpower
costs (meter-reading costs) for electric utilities.

The main problem is this:

Over the life of the meter, the meter will save the utility company
maybe $100 in meter-reading and other costs (remote turn on/off, etc).
However, this is offset by the up-front cost of buying the meter,
installing the network, billing software, etc. This cost (say, $500
over the life of the meter) will be borne by the home owner through
additional monthly fees.

The real savings (manpower mostly) will be enjoyed by the utility (say,
$100) at the expense of the home owner - a much larger expense (say,
$500) than the utility will gain.

Ordinarily, such a bargain in the commercial / retail marketplace is
more equitable.

For example, a consumer might pay a higher annual cost for one
credit-card over another, where the benefits of the card are perceived
to be worth the extra cost.

Utility companies want smart meters because they reduce their
meter-reading costs, plus they can do more with the meters (remote
disconnect/reconnect, offer pre-paid electicity service, etc).

The time-of-use aspect of billing for residential electricity is bogus.

Electric utilities that supply a given residential customer base always
recoup what they spend to buy electricity by charging the customer base
accordingly. There is no need to figure out, on a house-by-house basis,
who used how many kwh during 9-am to 5-pm (or what-ever). A total kwh
reading per month is sufficient. The differences in use patterns
between houses do not amount to anything worthy of spending $500 to
$1000 for a new meter and related billing infrastructure.

Again, time-of-use electricity billing for residential customers
represents a false economy, when the cost of the metering systems and
software are taken into account.

If those costs are borne mainly or exclusively by the home owner, then
only the utility company wins - and the home owner can never
realistically change their life-style to the point where they time-shift
enough of their electricity use to recoup the extra new costs of paying
for the meter that is imposed on them by the utility.

Maybe reprogram your TV remote, too?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"bob haller" wrote in message
...

My water went up a bit when they replaced that 40+ yr old one-- but
not enough to worry about.

Jim

actually its a spying thing, they can pick up conversations in the
home, and send it back over the power line. thank terrorists

micky wrote:
One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?

Among other concerns, they will be used to implement "time of day" and
"demand" price structuring, increasing the cost of residential electicity.
A lot of "greens" are solidly behind this technology as a way to jack up
prices in an effort to reduce electricity usage (and reduce what they see as
the cause of global warming/climate change).

We actually have a fellow in the current election for electric board
commisioner who is running on that exact platform.

Jon

On 5/15/2012 7:33 AM, Home Guy wrote:
micky wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters.

Is there any reason to reject one?

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that they
allow for time-of-use billing.

In other words, the cost of electricity changes during the course of a
day, and smart meters allow utility companies to more equitably charge
individual home owers for the electricity they use.

But this represents a false economy when applied on such a small scale
as the individual home.

The REAL unspoken reason for smart meters is that they save manpower
costs (meter-reading costs) for electric utilities.

The main problem is this:

Over the life of the meter, the meter will save the utility company
maybe $100 in meter-reading and other costs (remote turn on/off, etc).
However, this is offset by the up-front cost of buying the meter,
installing the network, billing software, etc. This cost (say, $500
over the life of the meter) will be borne by the home owner through
additional monthly fees.

The real savings (manpower mostly) will be enjoyed by the utility (say,
$100) at the expense of the home owner - a much larger expense (say,
$500) than the utility will gain.

Ordinarily, such a bargain in the commercial / retail marketplace is
more equitable.

For example, a consumer might pay a higher annual cost for one
credit-card over another, where the benefits of the card are perceived
to be worth the extra cost.

Utility companies want smart meters because they reduce their
meter-reading costs, plus they can do more with the meters (remote
disconnect/reconnect, offer pre-paid electicity service, etc).

The time-of-use aspect of billing for residential electricity is bogus.

Electric utilities that supply a given residential customer base always
recoup what they spend to buy electricity by charging the customer base
accordingly. There is no need to figure out, on a house-by-house basis,
who used how many kwh during 9-am to 5-pm (or what-ever). A total kwh
reading per month is sufficient. The differences in use patterns
between houses do not amount to anything worthy of spending $500 to
$1000 for a new meter and related billing infrastructure.

Again, time-of-use electricity billing for residential customers
represents a false economy, when the cost of the metering systems and
software are taken into account.

If those costs are borne mainly or exclusively by the home owner, then
only the utility company wins - and the home owner can never
realistically change their life-style to the point where they time-shift
enough of their electricity use to recoup the extra new costs of paying
for the meter that is imposed on them by the utility.

again, you're mostly wrong

in the case where the home is generating power during the day, it is
critical to know which way power is going when.

in the case where you have a very new energy efficient home, it is
critical to know the difference in power being used between other nearby
homes when.

chaniarts wrote:

Is there any reason to reject one?

The REAL unspoken reason for smart meters is that they save
manpower costs (meter-reading costs) for electric utilities.

The real savings (manpower mostly) will be enjoyed by the utility
(say, $100) at the expense of the home owner - a much larger
expense (say, $500) than the utility will gain.

Utility companies want smart meters because they reduce their
meter-reading costs, plus they can do more with the meters
(remote disconnect/reconnect, offer pre-paid electicity service,
etc).

The time-of-use aspect of billing for residential electricity is
bogus.

Time-of-use electricity billing for residential customers represents
a false economy, when the cost of the metering systems and software
are taken into account.

The home owner can never realistically change their life-style to
the point where they time-shift enough of their electricity use to
recoup the extra new costs of paying for the meter that is imposed
on them by the utility.

again, you're mostly wrong

But you won't speak to these facts will you:

- Utilities are installing meters at the customer's expense that
will cost customers 4 to 8 times what the utility will save
in reduced operating costs (meter-reading mostly).

- home owners are unlikely to shift electricity usage or change
lifestyle to compensate for extra charges designed to cover
the cost of the meter, billing systems, etc.

- Utilities want smart meters to reduce manpower costs (meter
reading, automated connect / disconnect, new services such as
pay-as-you-go, pre-paid use, etc). The utilities are not willing
to pay the full up-front cost of new meters out of their operating
profit, and so they use politics to force new meters on residential
customers AND get new / additional tarrifs or fees imposed on monthly
bills so that customers bankroll the new meters, billing systems, etc.

Now I will address you extremely weak counter-arguments:

in the case where the home is generating power during the day, it
is critical to know which way power is going when.

A very big piece of horse-****. Why?

Because any customer co-gen system will by law have it's own meter and
will feed any power generated by the system back into the grid through
that meter. What-ever meter the customer has for his existing
residential load would remain in-place.

And a second reason why your example is horse-**** is simply the
numbers. The numbers of residential co-gen systems (solar or wind) is
EXTREMELY small, and hardly a factor when considering why TOU meters are
being deployed for residential use.

in the case where you have a very new energy efficient home, it
is critical to know the difference in power being used between
other nearby homes when.

Again, here's where you don't understand what's going on.

If I have an energy-efficient home, I'm already going to use fewer KWH
compared to my neighbor. So if we were both billed only on total
monthly KWH, I would use less electricity, and my bill would be lower
than my neighbor.

Now, if I and my neighbor both have TOU meters and we are billed based
on TOU rates, then if the percentage break-down of our usage is the
same, then there is no advantage to TOU measurements and billing. If we
both consume 25% of our total KWH during prime-time, and 75% of the rest
at "cheap-time", then it makes no difference if we are billed based on
TOU or by flat-rate.

Now if I shift any percentage of my prime-time use to cheap-time, then I
would theoretically benefit if I'm billed under TOU vs flat-rate. The
more I shift, the more I benefit. - The more my house is energy
efficient, the LESS I benefit. !!

Now, do the math.

Regardless if your house is energy efficient or not.

Unless you are willing to consume NO electricity during prime time, you
will not save enough under TOU metering to compensate for the additional
charges the utility is saddling you with to pay for the ****ing meter in
the first place.

That is why it's a false economy.

Same for hybrid or electric cars. An electric car *might* cost you less
to operate on a per-mile basis, but the up-front cost of the batteries
will far exceed the operational savings. It's a false economy.

Home Guy wrote:
micky wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters.

Is there any reason to reject one?

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that they
allow for time-of-use billing.

In other words, the cost of electricity changes during the course of a
day, and smart meters allow utility companies to more equitably charge
individual home owers for the electricity they use.

But this represents a false economy when applied on such a small scale
as the individual home.

The REAL unspoken reason for smart meters is that they save manpower
costs (meter-reading costs) for electric utilities.

The main problem is this:

Over the life of the meter, the meter will save the utility company
maybe $100 in meter-reading and other costs (remote turn on/off, etc).
However, this is offset by the up-front cost of buying the meter,
installing the network, billing software, etc. This cost (say, $500
over the life of the meter) will be borne by the home owner through
additional monthly fees.

The real savings (manpower mostly) will be enjoyed by the utility
(say, $100) at the expense of the home owner - a much larger expense
(say, $500) than the utility will gain.

Ordinarily, such a bargain in the commercial / retail marketplace is
more equitable.

For example, a consumer might pay a higher annual cost for one
credit-card over another, where the benefits of the card are perceived
to be worth the extra cost.

Utility companies want smart meters because they reduce their
meter-reading costs, plus they can do more with the meters (remote
disconnect/reconnect, offer pre-paid electicity service, etc).

The time-of-use aspect of billing for residential electricity is
bogus.

Electric utilities that supply a given residential customer base
always recoup what they spend to buy electricity by charging the
customer base accordingly. There is no need to figure out, on a
house-by-house basis, who used how many kwh during 9-am to 5-pm (or
what-ever). A total kwh reading per month is sufficient. The
differences in use patterns between houses do not amount to anything
worthy of spending $500 to $1000 for a new meter and related billing
infrastructure.

Again, time-of-use electricity billing for residential customers
represents a false economy, when the cost of the metering systems and
software are taken into account.

If those costs are borne mainly or exclusively by the home owner, then
only the utility company wins - and the home owner can never
realistically change their life-style to the point where they
time-shift enough of their electricity use to recoup the extra new
costs of paying for the meter that is imposed on them by the utility.

I know maths is hard, but let's see if we can figure this out:

Let's assume a manual meter-read can read, oh, one meter every three
minutes.

At $20/hr, all things considered, it costs the power company about $1/month
to read your meter.

A "smart" meter costs about $200 and about $40 worth of labor to install it.

So, then, for all that, the power company will recoup the expense for buying
and installing the meter in 240 months, about 20 years.

Obviously the power company can't make economic sense with this scenario. I
guess that's why they're charging me a few bucks per month for this shiny
new meter.

Aside:
The power distribution company DID come out and test the pole in my backyard
recently. They dug an access hole about 18" deep around it and bored out a
1/2" plug of wood. I don't know what they did with the plug - maybe sent it
to a lab for testing - but they did nail an aluminum plate about the size of
a fifty-cent piece to the pole with the test date on it.

The power company employee did say he thought the pole in my yard was okay -
it was one of the older ones pressure treated with creosote. It should last
sixty years he opined. He further said the newer poles, those treated with
eco-friendly materials (like extract of arugula), rot out in about a week.

On Tue, 15 May 2012 05:54:49 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400, micky
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local wacko
radio station.

I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee because
someone would have to come and read it.

I think $100/mo is fair.

HeyBub wrote:

At $20/hr, all things considered, it costs the power company about
$1/month to read your meter.

A "smart" meter costs about $200 and about $40 worth of labor to
install it.

I don't buy your estimated price of $200.

So, then, for all that, the power company will recoup the expense
for buying and installing the meter in 240 months, about 20 years.

Obviously the power company can't make economic sense with this
scenario.

No - that's why they have added either completely new line-items on your
bill, or have increased existing ones.

I guess that's why they're charging me a few bucks per month for
this shiny new meter.

And now tell me how that's working out for the customer.

Aside:

(stuff about a pole)

What's that got to do with this discussion?

On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400, micky
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?

Well, thanks all. Although money is a problem for her -- iirc she
told me they raised her health insurance premium a lot while cutting
benefits -- I didn 't think her objection was just to the money. I
don't know if they have said how much money they'll be charging, if
any.


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local wacko
radio station.

I think it's on Saturday night, and when I'm not doing anything else,
there is certainly nothing else on tv or the radio, so maybe I'll
isten to see if he's a wacko too.

Late at night the station has George Nuri (sp?) for 3 or 4 hours, who
often doesn't say much, but his callers are sure wackos.

On May 16, 1:29*am, wrote:
On Tue, 15 May 2012 20:37:20 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

A "smart" meter costs about $200 and about $40 worth of labor to install it.

How is that going to be $40?
If it took 3 minutes to read the meter, it was about a minute longer
to replace it. The guy had the power off for about 10 seconds and it
took another 10 seconds to wrap the ring around it and clip on the
seal. He was doing them 4 at a time (each trip from the truck)
I bet they do 16-20 an hour.

I was in the garage at the time and I tripped the main for him but he
said he does them hot all of the time, usually without even telling
the homeowner he was there.

utility companies are required by law in many areas to replace meters
every X years....

i they have to replace them anyway a smart meter is likely a good
choice.

i know a retired meter manager from duquesne light and will ask him
some questions the next time i see him.

he has a retirement business building meter testers

"HeyBub" wrote:

-snip-

I know maths is hard, but let's see if we can figure this out:

Let's assume a manual meter-read can read, oh, one meter every three
minutes.

Not in my neck of the woods he can't-- and I'm just in the burbs. In
rural areas he might drive 5 minutes between meters.


At $20/hr, all things considered, it costs the power company about $1/month
to read your meter.

$20/hr? I'll bet it is closer to $100 "all things considered" --
oh, and don't forget the other $100 for the truck he's driving.


A "smart" meter costs about $200 and about $40 worth of labor to install it.

So, then, for all that, the power company will recoup the expense for buying
and installing the meter in 240 months, about 20 years.

Obviously the power company can't make economic sense with this scenario. I
guess that's why they're charging me a few bucks per month for this shiny
new meter.

There are a ton of 'hidden costs' buried in my electric bill-- but the
meter isn't one of them.


Aside:
The power distribution company DID come out and test the pole in my backyard
recently. They dug an access hole about 18" deep around it and bored out a
1/2" plug of wood. I don't know what they did with the plug - maybe sent it
to a lab for testing - but they did nail an aluminum plate about the size of
a fifty-cent piece to the pole with the test date on it.
-snip-
Never heard of that one. I'll bet in NY, some guy would come out and
eyeball it from the street and tell you to replace it.

Jim

Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

At $20/hr, all things considered, it costs the power company about
$1/month to read your meter.

A "smart" meter costs about $200 and about $40 worth of labor to
install it.

I don't buy your estimated price of $200.


So, how much do YOU think they cost?

"Various kinds of smart meters are available and in use around the country.
Depending on its capabilities, a smart meter - at a cost of about $200 per
home - also can play a role in how much information about energy use is made
available to customers and how much money can be saved."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24459145...ectricity-use/



Aside:

(stuff about a pole)

What's that got to do with this discussion?

My apologies. Nothing if all we're discussing are meters; that's why I
prefaced the observation with "Aside". Next time I'll use "OT" instead of
"Aside" so you won't nearly twitch to death.

wrote:
On Tue, 15 May 2012 20:37:20 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

A "smart" meter costs about $200 and about $40 worth of labor to
install it.

How is that going to be $40?
If it took 3 minutes to read the meter, it was about a minute longer
to replace it. The guy had the power off for about 10 seconds and it
took another 10 seconds to wrap the ring around it and clip on the
seal. He was doing them 4 at a time (each trip from the truck)
I bet they do 16-20 an hour.


I asked the meter replacement man how many a day he does. He said "about
40." If the company absorbs about $30/hr for his labor ($240/day), that's
six bucks. Then there is the cost for the truck, paperwork, disposing of the
old meter, and other incidentals. My guess of $40 may be high, but not
unreasonably so.

Besides, $40 in the original computation made the numbers come out more
easily than if I had used $7.53.

Jim Elbrecht wrote:


Aside:
The power distribution company DID come out and test the pole in my
backyard recently. They dug an access hole about 18" deep around it
and bored out a 1/2" plug of wood. I don't know what they did with
the plug - maybe sent it to a lab for testing - but they did nail an
aluminum plate about the size of a fifty-cent piece to the pole with
the test date on it.
-snip-
Never heard of that one. I'll bet in NY, some guy would come out and
eyeball it from the street and tell you to replace it.


Sounds like your power company uses the "Necessary Pole Management" system.
When the pole falls over, they replace it.

In my neighborhood, Houston, we had a hurricane four years ago (Hurricane
Yikes). The electrical distribution system was so dilapidated that four
million people were without power for up to ten days! Since then, the local
power distribution company has been beavering away to upgrade and rigorously
maintain the system. It seems like once a month, some tree-trimming truck
comes by whacks the bejesus out of everthing taller than a rose bush.

On Wed, 16 May 2012 07:42:10 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote:

-snip-

I know maths is hard, but let's see if we can figure this out:

Let's assume a manual meter-read can read, oh, one meter every three
minutes.

Maybe in an apartment building basement he can do that.

Not in my neck of the woods he can't-- and I'm just in the burbs. In
rural areas he might drive 5 minutes between meters.

I live in a townhouse, and even here I think 3 minutes is unlikely,
even wiithout goofing off. At my house he'd have to move things out
of his way, garbage cans, etc, then squeeze past the motorcycle (1 or
2 minutes) then remove the old one (1 minute) and put in the new one
(1 minute) , then go back to the truck to get another meter (2
minutes, 3 if has to unlock/lock the truck) then go to the next house
1 minute. And he will probably relax for 30 seconds between meters.

So I think we're talking 6 to 9 minutes/meter. Not much more for
single family houses in small to modertate sized lots, except he has
longer to walk to the truck and has to move it more often.


At $20/hr, all things considered, it costs the power company about $1/month
to read your meter.

$20/hr? I'll bet it is closer to $100 "all things considered" --
oh, and don't forget the other $100 for the truck he's driving.


A "smart" meter costs about $200 and about $40 worth of labor to install it.

So, then, for all that, the power company will recoup the expense for buying
and installing the meter in 240 months, about 20 years.

Obviously the power company can't make economic sense with this scenario. I
guess that's why they're charging me a few bucks per month for this shiny
new meter.

There are a ton of 'hidden costs' buried in my electric bill-- but the
meter isn't one of them.


Aside:
The power distribution company DID come out and test the pole in my backyard
recently. They dug an access hole about 18" deep around it and bored out a
1/2" plug of wood. I don't know what they did with the plug - maybe sent it
to a lab for testing - but they did nail an aluminum plate about the size of
a fifty-cent piece to the pole with the test date on it.
-snip-
Never heard of that one. I'll bet in NY, some guy would come out and
eyeball it from the street and tell you to replace it.

Jim

On 5/16/2012 2:23 PM, micky wrote:
On Wed, 16 May 2012 07:42:10 -0400, Jim
wrote:

wrote:

-snip-

I know maths is hard, but let's see if we can figure this out:

Let's assume a manual meter-read can read, oh, one meter every three
minutes.

Maybe in an apartment building basement he can do that.

Not in my neck of the woods he can't-- and I'm just in the burbs. In
rural areas he might drive 5 minutes between meters.

I live in a townhouse, and even here I think 3 minutes is unlikely,
even wiithout goofing off. At my house he'd have to move things out
of his way, garbage cans, etc, then squeeze past the motorcycle (1 or
2 minutes) then remove the old one (1 minute) and put in the new one
(1 minute) , then go back to the truck to get another meter (2
minutes, 3 if has to unlock/lock the truck) then go to the next house
1 minute. And he will probably relax for 30 seconds between meters.

So I think we're talking 6 to 9 minutes/meter. Not much more for
single family houses in small to modertate sized lots, except he has
longer to walk to the truck and has to move it more often.


At $20/hr, all things considered, it costs the power company about $1/month
to read your meter.

$20/hr? I'll bet it is closer to $100 "all things considered" --
oh, and don't forget the other $100 for the truck he's driving.


A "smart" meter costs about $200 and about $40 worth of labor to install it.

So, then, for all that, the power company will recoup the expense for buying
and installing the meter in 240 months, about 20 years.

Obviously the power company can't make economic sense with this scenario. I
guess that's why they're charging me a few bucks per month for this shiny
new meter.

There are a ton of 'hidden costs' buried in my electric bill-- but the
meter isn't one of them.


Aside:
The power distribution company DID come out and test the pole in my backyard
recently. They dug an access hole about 18" deep around it and bored out a
1/2" plug of wood. I don't know what they did with the plug - maybe sent it
to a lab for testing - but they did nail an aluminum plate about the size of
a fifty-cent piece to the pole with the test date on it.
-snip-
Never heard of that one. I'll bet in NY, some guy would come out and
eyeball it from the street and tell you to replace it.

Jim


i live in a town of 32 square miles with about 2600 residences of all
kinds (houses, ranches, apartments, businesses). it used to take about 8
days by a few people to read all the water meters manually. the town
replaced them all with remote read meters (radio based), and it can be
done in about 1 day by 1 person just by driving down the street.

most of the remote read electric meters being discussed here are
readable without ANY labor costs, as they can be polled from the utility
computers directly.

chaniarts wrote:

most of the remote read electric meters being discussed here are
readable without ANY labor costs, as they can be polled from the
utility computers directly.

And if the utility gets home owners to foot the entire bill for the
meters, computers and software, then in this equation we have customers
forking over $500 over the lifespan of the meter just so the utility can
save $100 in meter-reading costs over the same period.

Brilliant economics there.

Home Guy wrote:
chaniarts wrote:

most of the remote read electric meters being discussed here are
readable without ANY labor costs, as they can be polled from the
utility computers directly.

And if the utility gets home owners to foot the entire bill for the
meters, computers and software, then in this equation we have
customers forking over $500 over the lifespan of the meter just so
the utility can save $100 in meter-reading costs over the same period.

Brilliant economics there.

I don't know where you live, but there is no "Extra" charge after they changed
the meter to add this feature here in Seattle.

On May 17, 12:29*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 16 May 2012 17:23:21 -0400, micky
wrote:





On Wed, 16 May 2012 07:42:10 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote:

-snip-

I know maths is hard, but let's see if we can figure this out:

Let's assume a manual meter-read can read, oh, one meter every three
minutes.

Maybe in an apartment building basement he can do that.

Not in my neck of the woods he can't-- *and I'm just in the burbs. In
rural areas he might drive 5 minutes between meters.

I live in a townhouse, and even here I think 3 minutes is unlikely,
even wiithout goofing off. *At my house he'd have to move things out
of his way, garbage cans, etc, then squeeze past the motorcycle (1 or
2 minutes) *then remove the old one (1 minute) and put in the new one
(1 minute) , then go back to the truck to get another meter (2
minutes, 3 if has to unlock/lock the truck) then go to the next house
1 minute. *And he will probably relax for 30 seconds between meters.

So I think we're talking 6 to 9 minutes/meter. * Not much more for
single family houses in small to modertate sized lots, except he has
longer to walk to the truck and has to move it more often.

If you obstruct a meter here you get a nasty note on your door,
threatening to disconnect the power. Meter readers are usually college
kids and I think they get paid by the route so they move right along.
The meter swappers were contractors too so they were not screwing
around either.

It is probably different in a mobbed up northern union state but the
meter reader union probably stops the remote readers anyway.

think of the cost per year to read meters. employee, vehicle expense,
workmens comp, social security, retirement etc etc...

the smart meters must save money over their lifetime, and the ability
to disconnect no pay customers saves bucks too

"bob haller" wrote in message ...
the smart meters must save money over their lifetime, and the ability
to disconnect no pay customers saves bucks too

Bingo!

Nothing like a disconnect to motivate even the lasiest of welfare queens up off the couch to go pay their bill.

Bob F wrote:

And if the utility gets home owners to foot the entire bill for
the meters, computers and software, then in this equation we have
customers forking over $500 over the lifespan of the meter just
so the utility can save $100 in meter-reading costs over the same
period.

Brilliant economics there.

I don't know where you live, but there is no "Extra" charge after
they changed the meter to add this feature here in Seattle.


Here are some numbers for my jurisdiction (Ontario, Canada):

http://www.eda-on.ca/eda/edaweb.nsf/...256F4A0072C976

The startup costs for TOU meters are pegged at $240 / $250 per customer,
and:

"In addition to these considerations, it is estimated that it will
cost about $3.00 per customer per month for the incremental costs
of the billing. Province wide this would be about $12.9M."

If you are not seeing any additional line-item charges on your
electricity bill, and if any of your existing line-item charges
(delivery, infrastructure, etc) haven't been increased, then you can be
sure that the TOU rates you're paying were juggled so that the utility
is recouping an additional few dollars per month for all costs
associated with the TOU meter (cost of meter, installation, cost of
installing / operating communications network, cost of billing
software).

"The EDA believes that distributors should be properly compensated
for the premature retirement of existing meters."

In other words, someone is going to pay for the "loss-of-value" when an
existing (but working) analog meter is replaced by a TOU meter.

"The EDA opposes the creation of additional variance accounts
to implement this initiative."

They don't want customers to see exactly what the smart meter is costing
them?

"The EDA believes that the capital cost of the smart meters and
associated systems should be allowed to be fully recovered within
a timeframe that recognizes the rapid change in technology and in
accordance with proper business principles and be placed in the
rate base."

But they still want utility companies to fully recover the costs of
smart-meter implimentation, and naturally this will have to come from
customers - and in a timely (rapid) manner.

This document:

http://marylandsmartmeterawareness.o...SCcomments.pdf

claims that analog meters have a lifespan of 30 to 40 years, while smart
TOU meters have a lifespan of 10 to 20 years.

This industry PR document:

http://ci.ojai.ca.us/vertical/sites/...t_F INAL_.pdf

specifies a 20-year lifespan for the "Edison SmartConnect" meter.

This appears to be a professional study of smart-meter implimentation in
5 areas around the world:

http://www.worldenergy.org/documents...art_meters.pdf

============
Smart Meters do not necessarily bring environmental benefits. Like many
new technologies, their rollout requires replacing an entire, fully
functional, existing system. Their lifespan is expected to be short, at
only 15 to 20 years (rather than over 30 years for traditional meters)
and they use electricity to run – which requires extra generation to
supply.

The overreaching conclusion of the study is that the policies governing
smart meters, are decisive in limiting or maximizing the positive
impacts of this technology. Smart Meters (AMI) are measuring devices
which send consumption information to the utility using communication
technology at pre-programmed intervals. They will also include more
advanced features such as outage information, two-way communication
capabilities, a remote on/off switch etc.

A fully functional AMI meter, such as those being rolled out in
Australia and California, will have approximately 30 separate
functionalities. Most of these functionalities will primarily benefit
the utility unless expressly employed toward end-consumer programmes
with the support of regulation and supportive market structures.

Main Conclusions of the Report

1) As a technology, (without appropriate regulation) smart meters
provide more benefits to the utilities than to the end consumers.

2) Smart Meters do not benefit the environment without proper
regulation.

3) Smart Meter enabled programmes can provide substantial, long term
societal and environmental benefits if they are placed in their correct
position; namely as a platform for efficiency programmes supported
through appropriate regulation and market structures.

4) There are basic conflicts of interest caused when a utility which
earns off of electricity sales, is asked to lower those sales through
helping consumers lower consumption. Regulation and polity can overcome
this barrier if it takes it into consideration.

5) If the correct structures are in place, and efficiency measures are
rewarded, utilities and private companies tend to exceed the minimal
requirements set by regulators in their drive to maximize the benefits
of the new market structures.

6) Smart Meters and the communication technology required for energy
efficiency programmes are expensive – at least €200 per household. They
are therefore not necessarily appropriate tools for developing nations,
or those were household consumption is low.

7) Regulators should calculate the impact of smart meter rollout,
dynamic pricing structures and new tariffs on vulnerable consumers.

8) Regulators and utilities should take into account that an increase in
costs for consumers should be included only with a method for
controlling those costs, through easily accessible feedback information.
Accurate monthly billing has not been found satisfactory enough by
residential consumers or consumer interest groups.
==================

On Thu, 17 May 2012 17:43:09 -0400, "Ceesar Milan" ceesar@comcast
wrote:


"bob haller" wrote in message ...
the smart meters must save money over their lifetime, and the ability
to disconnect no pay customers saves bucks too

Bingo!

Nothing like a disconnect to motivate even the lasiest of welfare queens up off the couch to go pay their bill.

Well, I'm not a welfare queen, or a queen of any sort, or even
femaile, but I've neglected to pay my bill. Once the power was
disconnected in the afternoon and I had paid the billl soon after. By
5:30 I became convinced that the work day was over and I wouldn't be
reconnected until the next day. So I cut the seal on meter, took out
the meter, and removed the plastic covers on the 2 or 3 big prongs in
the back of the meter, and recconnected myself.

I was surprised when the Electric Co. guy showed up an hour or two
later. I told him someone else had come and reconnected it, and he
left.

That sounded perfectly reasonable when I said it, but I eventually
concluded that he his job was disconnecting and reconnecting, and for
any location on a given day, only one person had that job. One guy
per region. The fact that he was working to 7:30 or so is what
convinced me. So he knew he was the only one who would come and no
one else had come, but he didn't let on. He also knew I had paid what
I owed.

I knew it would be easy to reconnect, because the first time I was
disconnected, I found the plactic prong covers on the ground weeks
afterwards, and figured out what they were.

When I get a smart meter, I won't be able to do that anymore. ;-(


;(

George wrote in :

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local
wacko
radio station.

I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee because
someone would have to come and read it.


One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

Yes, now a criminal working at a power company can check whether
you are at home, so they can "visit" your home safely......

Sjouke Burry wrote the following on 5/18/2012 8:19 PM (ET):
George wrote in :

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local
wacko
radio station.
I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee because
someone would have to come and read it.

One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

Yes, now a criminal working at a power company can check whether
you are at home, so they can "visit" your home safely......


How would he/she know you are home or away?
Does the meter stop running when you leave the house?
I would think it would be easier for them to check the present occupancy
of the home when they are standing at the meter.

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

willshak wrote in news:mvOdnYnHuM5
:

Sjouke Burry wrote the following on 5/18/2012 8:19 PM (ET):
George wrote in news:jotiul$usd$1@dont-
email.me:

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer,
but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local
wacko
radio station.
I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee
because
someone would have to come and read it.

One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

Yes, now a criminal working at a power company can check whether
you are at home, so they can "visit" your home safely......


How would he/she know you are home or away?
Does the meter stop running when you leave the house?
I would think it would be easier for them to check the present
occupancy
of the home when they are standing at the meter.


When you are out, consumption of power kind of drops off.
when you are sleeping, the same.
When you are on vacation, it drops off for several days.
With some nice plotting software it will make the change in
load pattern obvious, the units proposed in the Netherlands
have a 15 minute sample rate.
Talk about big brother watching you.

On Fri, 18 May 2012 21:18:25 -0400, willshak
wrote:

How would he/she know you are home or away?
Does the meter stop running when you leave the house?
I would think it would be easier for them to check the present occupancy
of the home when they are standing at the meter.

Burglars usually just ring the doorbell to see if anyone's home.
Perhaps a bit low tech, but still, it works just fine...

micky wrote:

I knew it would be easy to reconnect, because the first time I was
disconnected, I found the plactic prong covers on the ground weeks
afterwards, and figured out what they were.

When I get a smart meter, I won't be able to do that anymore. ;-(


Hmm. I've got smart meters. When I requested a temporary disconnect, a guy
came out and installed those plastic prong covers.

Wonder what's up with that...

Sjouke Burry s@b wrote in
2.10:

George wrote in :

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local
wacko
radio station.

I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee because
someone would have to come and read it.


One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

Yes, now a criminal working at a power company can check whether
you are at home, so they can "visit" your home safely......


to answer the original question,"smart meters" are electric meters for
homes that monitor your power usage continuously and keep record of how
much power is used at what times of the day and night,periodically read
remotely by the power company.

So they have a detailed record of YOUR lifestyle,when you do things that
use power. you may not like that data being accumulated and available to
gov't officials.(and maybe private companies too. It's data that is worth
something,thus salable.)

they may also have the capability to remotely CONTROL(shut off) some of
your home's appliances to aid the power company in load managment.

You may not like the power company turning off your AC,water heater,or
washer-dryer at peak demand times.

I'm not sure if these will also turn off electric car chargers.

and you won't KNOW when these items are off....there will not be any
announcement when it occurs.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Fri, 18 May 2012 21:18:28 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

micky wrote:

I knew it would be easy to reconnect, because the first time I was
disconnected, I found the plactic prong covers on the ground weeks
afterwards, and figured out what they were.

When I get a smart meter, I won't be able to do that anymore. ;-(


Hmm. I've got smart meters. When I requested a temporary disconnect, a guy
came out and installed those plastic prong covers.

Wonder what's up with that...

Very good question. Maybe they don't trust the electronics.

I just got an email today from BGE and it says the smart meterrs will
be installed within 3 years. Maybe when that happens I should write
down whatever is on the metal seal, so I can tell if they've removed
it again. I dont think I'll need the disconnect you wanted,
however.

On 19 May 2012 01:31:50 GMT, Sjouke Burry s@b wrote:

willshak wrote in news:mvOdnYnHuM5
:

Sjouke Burry wrote the following on 5/18/2012 8:19 PM (ET):
George wrote in news:jotiul$usd$1@dont-
email.me:

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer,
but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local
wacko
radio station.
I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee
because
someone would have to come and read it.

One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

Yes, now a criminal working at a power company can check whether
you are at home, so they can "visit" your home safely......


How would he/she know you are home or away?
Does the meter stop running when you leave the house?
I would think it would be easier for them to check the present
occupancy
of the home when they are standing at the meter.


When you are out, consumption of power kind of drops off.

At night I leave a light on when I go out. If I'm home, I play the
radio, maybe 10 watts. Sometimes the TV -- isn't that 50 watts for a
12" color tv.

when you are sleeping, the same.

If I'm sleeping at home, I'm home.

When you are on vacation, it drops off for several days.
With some nice plotting software it will make the change in
load pattern obvious, the units proposed in the Netherlands
have a 15 minute sample rate.
Talk about big brother watching you.

That assumes anyone would want to do that for me. A burglar would be
better off going to a fancier n'hood. And I'll have my own burglar
alarm up and running again soon. That only uses about 10 watts iirc,
so he won't know until he sets it off.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
micky wrote:

I knew it would be easy to reconnect, because the first time I was
disconnected, I found the plactic prong covers on the ground weeks
afterwards, and figured out what they were.

When I get a smart meter, I won't be able to do that anymore. ;-(


Hmm. I've got smart meters. When I requested a temporary disconnect, a guy
came out and installed those plastic prong covers.

Wonder what's up with that...

I've never seen anything in widespread use that couldn't be hacked. It just
means you'll have to know something about smart meters and how they work
rather than how to use a pair of pliers.

Tomsic

Maybe the people who run Mom's Gas and snacks
can figure out how to get the program code for
Pop's Fuel and Munchies, and shut down their
meter, to put em out of business?

Middle of the summer, Rachel, who works for
Progressive Gas and Electric shuts down the meter
of her ex boyfriend, Martin, right in the middle of
Martin's football game?

Right at the peak of the election, Progressive Gas
and Electric shuts down the meters, at the Republican
and the Tea party offices?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Tomsic" wrote in message ...

I've never seen anything in widespread use that couldn't be
hacked. It just means you'll have to know something about
smart meters and how they work rather than how to use a
pair of pliers.

Tomsic

On 19 May 2012 01:31:50 GMT, Sjouke Burry s@b wrote:

willshak wrote in news:mvOdnYnHuM5
:

Sjouke Burry wrote the following on 5/18/2012 8:19 PM (ET):
George wrote in news:jotiul$usd$1@dont-
email.me:

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer,
but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local
wacko
radio station.
I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee
because
someone would have to come and read it.

One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

Yes, now a criminal working at a power company can check whether
you are at home, so they can "visit" your home safely......


How would he/she know you are home or away?
Does the meter stop running when you leave the house?
I would think it would be easier for them to check the present
occupancy
of the home when they are standing at the meter.


When you are out, consumption of power kind of drops off.
when you are sleeping, the same.
When you are on vacation, it drops off for several days.
With some nice plotting software it will make the change in
load pattern obvious, the units proposed in the Netherlands
have a 15 minute sample rate.
Talk about big brother watching you.
My power use varies more from day to day when I'm home than it does
between home and away.