On Mon, 28 May 2012 14:47:56 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 May 2012 12:10:47 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


"George" wrote in message
...
On 5/27/2012 1:37 AM, NotMe wrote:


snip

Not if every home does the same thing. It can ammount to several large
power stations not needing to be built.
The REAL unspoken reason for smart meters is that they save manpower
costs (meter-reading costs) for electric utilities.

At the cost of significant investment in technology - so no, I have
to disagree that it is "the REAL" reason. Remote reading could be
added to a standard meter, or "customer read" with quarterly or
by-annual "agent read" to verify honesty can also be used - and have
been in several areas.

Cost of smart meters in this area are an add on, monthly, line item fee
to
the customer bill.


No additional charge here.


No real savings because the other meters (gas and water) are still read
manually.


Our gas supplier previously fitted remote readers on the registers of
inside meters. Then maybe 4 years ago they retrofitted all of them.
There
is no additional charge. The water utility put remote readers on meters
maybe 5 years ago. No additional charge for that either.


I also expect the fee to remain long after the cost of the meter is
recoverd.


dig deeper it's there but perhaps not as a line item.

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service when it
was
actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse.

In what universe do you live?

One where they paid me to track/follow various phone company tariffs and
assorted applications including the real world back story of the process.

Two decades ago, perhaps. I want to know which one you live in now.

wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 May 2012 14:47:56 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 May 2012 12:10:47 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


"George" wrote in message
...
On 5/27/2012 1:37 AM, NotMe wrote:


snip

Not if every home does the same thing. It can ammount to several
large
power stations not needing to be built.
The REAL unspoken reason for smart meters is that they save
manpower
costs (meter-reading costs) for electric utilities.

At the cost of significant investment in technology - so no, I have
to disagree that it is "the REAL" reason. Remote reading could be
added to a standard meter, or "customer read" with quarterly or
by-annual "agent read" to verify honesty can also be used - and have
been in several areas.

Cost of smart meters in this area are an add on, monthly, line item
fee
to
the customer bill.


No additional charge here.


No real savings because the other meters (gas and water) are still
read
manually.


Our gas supplier previously fitted remote readers on the registers of
inside meters. Then maybe 4 years ago they retrofitted all of them.
There
is no additional charge. The water utility put remote readers on
meters
maybe 5 years ago. No additional charge for that either.


I also expect the fee to remain long after the cost of the meter is
recoverd.


dig deeper it's there but perhaps not as a line item.

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service when it
was
actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse.

In what universe do you live?

One where they paid me to track/follow various phone company tariffs and
assorted applications including the real world back story of the process.

Two decades ago, perhaps. I want to know which one you live in now.

There are a lot of different state PUCs as there are more local phone
companies. Not all are operated/regulated the same.

On Mon, 28 May 2012 23:14:29 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service when it
was
actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse.

You said, "Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service
^^^^^^^^^^^^
when it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse." No
I don't recall (that they still do). I asked what universe you live in.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 May 2012 23:14:29 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service when
it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse.

You said, "Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone
service
^^^^^^^^^^^^
when it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse."
No I don't recall (that they still do). I asked what universe you live
in.

Obviously a bigger one than you do.

On Mon, 28 May 2012, dpb wrote:

On 5/28/2012 12:10 PM, NotMe wrote:
...

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service when it
was
actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse.

Not what I recall--we were still on pulse until SW Bell finally converted the
tie-in to the switches in town (within the last 15 years) and afaicr the base
rate didn't change.

It depends on where you live. In Canada, touch-tone is sitll a premium
price. Some years back, maybe as much as ten years now, Bell wanted to
change things so there was no premium on touch-tone, but they did want the
fee applied to touch-tone users to become part of the basic bill. The
CRTC, which controls telephone tariffs among other things, said no.

Michael

On Mon, 28 May 2012 23:36:52 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 May 2012 23:14:29 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service when
it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse.

You said, "Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone
service
^^^^^^^^^^^^
when it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse."
No I don't recall (that they still do). I asked what universe you live
in.

Obviously a bigger one than you do.


Certainly a dumber one. You're too embarrassed to answer the question.
Obviously.

wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 May 2012 23:36:52 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 May 2012 23:14:29 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service
when
it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse.

You said, "Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone
service
^^^^^^^^^^^^
when it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial
pulse."
No I don't recall (that they still do). I asked what universe you live
in.

Obviously a bigger one than you do.


Certainly a dumber one. You're too embarrassed to answer the question.
Obviously.

I'll give you the dumber one credit point but then that's the nature of the
real world/universe. As always follow the money.

On Tue, 29 May 2012 13:08:55 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 May 2012 23:36:52 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 May 2012 23:14:29 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service
when
it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial pulse.

You said, "Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone
service
^^^^^^^^^^^^
when it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial
pulse."
No I don't recall (that they still do). I asked what universe you live
in.

Obviously a bigger one than you do.


Certainly a dumber one. You're too embarrassed to answer the question.
Obviously.

I'll give you the dumber one credit point but then that's the nature of the
real world/universe.

You haven't got one IQ point to give away. Obviously.

As always follow the money.

You couldn't count it if you could follow it.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 May 2012 13:08:55 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service
when
it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial
pulse.

You said, "Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone
service
^^^^^^^^^^^^
when it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial
pulse."
No I don't recall (that they still do). I asked what universe you
live
in.

Obviously a bigger one than you do.


Certainly a dumber one. You're too embarrassed to answer the question.
Obviously.

I'll give you the dumber one credit point but then that's the nature of
the
real world/universe.

You haven't got one IQ point to give away. Obviously.

As always follow the money.

You couldn't count it if you could follow it.

That's the best you can do?

On Tue, 29 May 2012 15:47:01 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 May 2012 13:08:55 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:

Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone service
when
it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial
pulse.

You said, "Recall phone company charged and still do for touch tone
service
^^^^^^^^^^^^
when it was actually cheaper for them to use touch tone than dial
pulse."
No I don't recall (that they still do). I asked what universe you
live
in.

Obviously a bigger one than you do.


Certainly a dumber one. You're too embarrassed to answer the question.
Obviously.

I'll give you the dumber one credit point but then that's the nature of
the
real world/universe.

You haven't got one IQ point to give away. Obviously.

As always follow the money.

You couldn't count it if you could follow it.

That's the best you can do?

I lost you again... Oh, well.

On Tue, 15 May 2012 00:05:49 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400, micky
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local wacko
radio station.

There are at least three schools of thought

1. they are a radiation hazard since they RF the data back to the host
2. they are a privacy problem because they can send usage data in real
time.

3. they do not read low like a 40 year old, worn out mechanical meter
so you bill will go up.

3a) Many of these new smart meters are programmed to read high with
certain loads. They don't give credit for power returned to the grid.
Resulting in bills 5 to 15% higher than previous..

3b) The Filters in Smart meters are not as good as those in old meters
and can result in gross errors..

3c) Like all modern electronics.. Limited lifespan.. 5-7 years.. And
when they fail the customer is likely to get screwed..

#3 is probably driving the other two.

4) Can turned on and off the customers electric service remotely.

5) Can remotely switch your service from 220v to 110v. (thus disabling
all 220v appliances, A/C, stove, pumps, etc).

6) Wireless protocal is going to be hacked. It's not a matter of if,
but when, and by whom. The consequences to society could be enormous.

On Mon, 21 May 2012 20:15:02 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:19:45 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Sjouke Burry s@b wrote in
.12.10:

George wrote in :

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local
wacko
radio station.

I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee because
someone would have to come and read it.


One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

Yes, now a criminal working at a power company can check whether
you are at home, so they can "visit" your home safely......


to answer the original question,"smart meters" are electric meters for
homes that monitor your power usage continuously and keep record of how
much power is used at what times of the day and night,periodically read
remotely by the power company.

So they have a detailed record of YOUR lifestyle,when you do things that
use power. you may not like that data being accumulated and available to
gov't officials.(and maybe private companies too. It's data that is worth
something,thus salable.)

they may also have the capability to remotely CONTROL(shut off) some of
your home's appliances to aid the power company in load managment.

You may not like the power company turning off your AC,water heater,or
washer-dryer at peak demand times.

I'm not sure if these will also turn off electric car chargers.

and you won't KNOW when these items are off....there will not be any
announcement when it occurs.

A smart METER cannot load shed - it cannot selectively control loads.
A "smart center" can. We don't have them yet in Ontario, and I can't
see them coming for quite some time as they will rquire TOTAL RETROFIT
of EVERY service panel to make them work. The electrical utility won't
pay for it - and no provinvial government that mandates the homeowner
pays for it will EVER be re-elected.

The ones being installed by FPL, 4.3 Million residential meters, can
remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to
the same 120v input. Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the
household.

They can also remotely turn on and off the service.

It's just a matter of time before the wireless protocal get's hacked
and someone else takes control.

On Sat, 26 May 2012 16:49:09 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 15:21:25 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:

Smart meters have nothing to do with selectively shedding loads.
You need equipment in each of those branch circuits to do that.
They can do metering by time of day.

I also doubt they allow the PoCo to shut off the power remotely. That
would require a pair of triacs inside the meter that could handle
200a. The I2R losses of those triacs would melt the meter base.

Oh, they can do it.

SOME can do it. There ARE smart meters in use, world-wide, that only
supply power when you have a credit balance. When your credit runs
out, the power goes off - and you go to the meter with your credit or
debit card, and "recharge" the meter to turn the lights back on.

That is NOT the kind of "smart meter" being installed by MOST local
power authorities in Canada and the USA

That feature is in most smart meters or can be added with a simple
download. I know for a fact that FPL's 4.3 million smart meters have
that feature. (I talked to GE's tech support, the manufacturer
FPL'ssmart meters, about the undocumented ordering features/codes. )

The recharge/reactivation is done wirelessly.

"T. Keating" wrote:

3a) Many of these new smart meters are programmed to read high
with certain loads.

Are you saying that smart-meters don't measure inductive, reactive or
non-linear loads correctly - such that they err on the side of the
utility company?

They don't give credit for power returned to the grid.

What returned power?

If you're referring to power generated by the customer (solar, wind,
etc) then (a) very few home-owners have a co-gen installation, and (b)
those that do are paid by the utility for any power they generate
through special feed-in tarrif programs and would have a separate meter
installed to measure the feed-in amount.

(other technical reasons - unverified but possibly true)

Beyond those possible technical reasons, smart-meters represesnt a false
economy because their installed cost far outweighs any benefit to the
residential user in terms of the possible savings they might achieve in
time-shifting their electricity usage to reduce peak-load demand for the
utility.

On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:16:26 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

(Gordon Burditt) wrote in news:apKdnW-
:

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that they
allow for time-of-use billing.

And more....

I can't speak for the meter you have but FPL is installing the GE 210+

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/smart...g/i210plus.htm

It is just an electronic meter, no "cut off" hardware or anything else

This meter feeds a low power RF device inside the meter that
communicates with a transmitter on the pole and from there it relays
the info to the utility in real time.

Silver Spring NIC 314

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/

The meter seems to be capable of transmitting a couple hundred yards
based on the distribution of the pole mounted access units.

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/ni-relay.html

(they also relay data from meter to meter.)


As for remote disconnect, I see you haven't done your homework..

I called up GE and talked to an engineer about the various
undocumented ordering options, some of ordering designations for the
GE I-210+ are,

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both
sides, no=220v appliance operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

Now go outside and check the installed options on your smart electric
meter.

On 5/30/2012 6:43 AM, T. Keating wrote:
....

The ones being installed by FPL, 4.3 Million residential meters, can
remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to
the same 120v input. Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the
household.

I don't see any indication of that in the GE product data sheet. Can
you provide a link to that; it seems unlikely design feature to me.

They can also remotely turn on and off the service.
....

If FPL is using a capable-meter and installing the 2-way communications
module, then that is a possibility.

Can you confirm which GE model FPL is actually using and which options
they bought?

--

On 5/30/2012 6:58 AM, T. Keating wrote:
....

That feature is in most smart meters or can be added with a simple
download. I know for a fact that FPL's 4.3 million smart meters have
that feature. (I talked to GE's tech support, the manufacturer
FPL'ssmart meters, about the undocumented ordering features/codes. )

The recharge/reactivation is done wirelessly.

Do you know which is the specific model FPL is using (the I-210+ or
I-210+c)?

They are prepayment-capable but doesn't mean FPL either ordered it or is
planning to.

--

On 5/30/2012 7:22 AM, T. Keating wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:16:26 -0500, Jim
wrote:

(Gordon Burditt) wrote in news:apKdnW-
rnetamerica:

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that they
allow for time-of-use billing.

And more....

I can't speak for the meter you have but FPL is installing the GE 210+

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/smart...g/i210plus.htm

It is just an electronic meter, no "cut off" hardware or anything else
....

I called up GE and talked to an engineer about the various
undocumented ordering options, some of ordering designations for the
GE I-210+ are,

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both
sides, no=220v appliance operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect& Prepaid disconnect.

Now go outside and check the installed options on your smart electric
meter.

As I read the datasheet the 210+ has both as optional capabilities; I
don't follow your above conclusion it's "just" an electronic meter
(altho FPL may not have ordered the option is what you're confirming,
maybe?)

As say, for any specific install checking the codes on the meters is the
way to know what is actually there...of course there still can be more
capability available than a utility is using (or may ever use).

--

On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:39:54 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/30/2012 6:58 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...

That feature is in most smart meters or can be added with a simple
download. I know for a fact that FPL's 4.3 million smart meters have
that feature. (I talked to GE's tech support, the manufacturer
FPL'ssmart meters, about the undocumented ordering features/codes. )

The recharge/reactivation is done wirelessly.

Do you know which is the specific model FPL is using (the I-210+ or
I-210+c)?

FPL is deploying the I-210+ (no C suffix) for nearly all of it's
residential customers. ( I refused permission to change out my
meter.)

Ordering options on FPL's I-210+ are..

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both
sides, no=220v appliance operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

They are prepayment-capable but doesn't mean FPL either ordered it or is
planning to.

See above.. ..

On 5/30/2012 8:08 AM, T. Keating wrote:
....

FPL is deploying the I-210+ (no C suffix) for nearly all of it's
residential customers. ( I refused permission to change out my
meter.)

Why? (Think you got a slow mechanical? )

Won't they just tell you to find another supplier on down the road?

--

On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:34:12 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/30/2012 6:43 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...

The ones being installed by FPL, 4.3 Million residential meters, can
remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to
the same 120v input. Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the
household.

I don't see any indication of that in the GE product data sheet. Can
you provide a link to that; it seems unlikely design feature to me.

I haven't see any online document listing the ordering options with
their letter designations. For that info you must call them up, and
track down the right person.


They can also remotely turn on and off the service.
...

If FPL is using a capable-meter and installing the 2-way communications
module, then that is a possibility.

Can you confirm which GE model FPL is actually using and which options
they bought?

Ordering options on FPL's GE-210+ residential meters a

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both
sides, no=220v appliance operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:02:45 -0400, Home Guy wrote:

"T. Keating" wrote:

3a) Many of these new smart meters are programmed to read high
with certain loads.

Are you saying that smart-meters don't measure inductive, reactive or
non-linear loads correctly - such that they err on the side of the
utility company?

Yup..


They don't give credit for power returned to the grid.

What returned power?

Certain motorised devices also act as generators and return a
percentage of that energy back to grid in backside(90-180, 270-360
degrees) of each AC -phase.

Instead of getting a credit for that returned energy, you get double
billed. (According the GE engineers).


If you're referring to power generated by the customer (solar, wind,
etc) then (a) very few home-owners have a co-gen installation, and (b)
those that do are paid by the utility for any power they generate
through special feed-in tarrif programs and would have a separate meter
installed to measure the feed-in amount.

From what I've heard, talking to smart meter installers, they don't
change out the meter for net-metering customers who've signed
agreements.


(other technical reasons - unverified but possibly true)

Beyond those possible technical reasons, smart-meters represesnt a false
economy because their installed cost far outweighs any benefit to the
residential user in terms of the possible savings they might achieve in
time-shifting their electricity usage to reduce peak-load demand for the
utility.

That I would agree on. I've been reading my meter daily for last 6
years, so I really don't need the online featues and the loss of
privacy.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:14:17 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/30/2012 8:08 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...

FPL is deploying the I-210+ (no C suffix) for nearly all of it's
residential customers. ( I refused permission to change out my
meter.)

Why? (Think you got a slow mechanical? )

No, I have an accurate mechanical meter..

I don't want an in-accurate, unreliable, hackable smart meter. That
will double bill me for and PV power I push onto the grid. I have PV
panels, and UL listed Enphase inverters ready to go, I just haven't
put them up.. yet..

Won't they just tell you to find another supplier on down the road?

Not at this time, since FPL has an exclusive monopoly in their service
area.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:14:17 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/30/2012 8:08 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...

FPL is deploying the I-210+ (no C suffix) for nearly all of it's
residential customers. ( I refused permission to change out my
meter.)

Why? (Think you got a slow mechanical? )

No, I have an accurate mechanical meter..

I don't want an in-accurate, unreliable, hackable smart meter. That
will double bill me for any PV power I push onto the grid. I have PV
panels, and UL listed Enphase inverters ready to go, I just haven't
put them up.. yet..

Won't they just tell you to find another supplier on down the road?

Not at this time, since FPL has an exclusive monopoly in their service
area.

On 5/30/2012 10:54 AM, bud-- wrote:
....

You are claiming the meters do not accurately measure power when the
power factor is not 1.0.

Cite.

Indeed, it would be hard to conceive that GE doesn't have that right
since the meters meet the same metering Standards as do the mechanical.

In all likelihood they're far more accurate (and since mechanicals tend
to underestimate as they wear, folks figure their odds are better of
getting something for nothing if they don't change I expect).

--

On 5/30/2012 8:48 AM, T. Keating wrote:
....

No, I have an accurate mechanical meter..

How do you know that?

--

On Wed, 30 May 2012 10:15:56 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/30/2012 10:54 AM, bud-- wrote:
...

You are claiming the meters do not accurately measure power when the
power factor is not 1.0.

Cite.

Indeed, it would be hard to conceive that GE doesn't have that right
since the meters meet the same metering Standards as do the mechanical.

The meter has the tech to do it right, It just has that feature
disabled by default. The power co's, claim they are preventing
stealing electricity by reversing meter can connection(Installing it
upside down). The net result you pay full price for any electricity
you put back into grid.

In all likelihood they're far more accurate (and since mechanicals tend
to underestimate as they wear, folks figure their odds are better of
getting something for nothing if they don't change I expect).

Not really. The characteristics of a spinning Al disc(ulimate in low
pass filter), will be far more reliable than any filter circuit using
modern day capacitors.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 10:17:46 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/30/2012 8:48 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...

No, I have an accurate mechanical meter..

How do you know that?

By confirming accurate measurement using alternate measurement
methods.. (Controlled experiments, shut off all circuits except
calibrated/individually measured loads, etc)

On 5/30/2012 7:40 AM, T. Keating wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:02:45 -0400, Home wrote:

"T. Keating" wrote:

3a) Many of these new smart meters are programmed to read high
with certain loads.

Are you saying that smart-meters don't measure inductive, reactive or
non-linear loads correctly - such that they err on the side of the
utility company?

Yup..


They don't give credit for power returned to the grid.

What returned power?

Certain motorised devices also act as generators and return a
percentage of that energy back to grid in backside(90-180, 270-360
degrees) of each AC -phase.

It has nothing to do with generator action. It is what inductors
(motors) do. (Also capacitors.)


Instead of getting a credit for that returned energy, you get double
billed. (According the GE engineers).


You are claiming the meters do not accurately measure power when the
power factor is not 1.0.

Cite.


--
bud--

On Wed, 30 May 2012 12:24:46 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:43:39 -0400, T. Keating
wrote:

On Mon, 21 May 2012 20:15:02 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:19:45 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Sjouke Burry s@b wrote in
news:XnsA05817B9EF72Bsjoukeburrysoesterbe@213. 75.12.10:

George wrote in :

On 5/15/2012 6:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:35:39 -0400,
wrote:

One of my friends sends me an email about a local state rep who is
preseinting to the Md. Public Service Commission a "case" to allow
people to reject smart meters. Nowhere does it say what kind of
meter, and I'm thinking it might means taximeter or galvanometer, but
I guess it means electric meters. Or gas meters?

Is there any reason to reject one?


BTW, the state rep also has a 2-hour show each week on the local
wacko
radio station.

I suppose the electric company would charge you some extra fee because
someone would have to come and read it.


One of the features of smart meters is they are remotely read.

Yes, now a criminal working at a power company can check whether
you are at home, so they can "visit" your home safely......


to answer the original question,"smart meters" are electric meters for
homes that monitor your power usage continuously and keep record of how
much power is used at what times of the day and night,periodically read
remotely by the power company.

So they have a detailed record of YOUR lifestyle,when you do things that
use power. you may not like that data being accumulated and available to
gov't officials.(and maybe private companies too. It's data that is worth
something,thus salable.)

they may also have the capability to remotely CONTROL(shut off) some of
your home's appliances to aid the power company in load managment.

You may not like the power company turning off your AC,water heater,or
washer-dryer at peak demand times.

I'm not sure if these will also turn off electric car chargers.

and you won't KNOW when these items are off....there will not be any
announcement when it occurs.

A smart METER cannot load shed - it cannot selectively control loads.
A "smart center" can. We don't have them yet in Ontario, and I can't
see them coming for quite some time as they will rquire TOTAL RETROFIT
of EVERY service panel to make them work. The electrical utility won't
pay for it - and no provinvial government that mandates the homeowner
pays for it will EVER be re-elected.

The ones being installed by FPL, 4.3 Million residential meters, can
remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to
the same 120v input. Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the
household.

They can also remotely turn on and off the service.

Bull****

Go look at the GE 210+ specs and get back to us.


You obviously can't read..

After observing some new smart meter installs. i decided to look up the meter capability
on the internet. But, I found the on-line documentation incomplete. So, I called up GE
and talked to their engineers about the undocument ordering/meter options.


As for documented features ..

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/produ...210_Family.pdf
Look up the term "service switch"..
Page 4.

"Advanced Functionality

With the addition of the fully rated 200 amp service switch, the meter is capable of
pre-payment metering without all the historical cost associated with card readers or other
legacy pre-payment technology. Load limiting and emergency conservation modes set this
meter apart when working in conjunction with a demand response program. Having the
capability to be remotely configured, as well as being firmware upgradeable, this product
serves todays needs, as well as tomorrows evolving requirements."

==========

Page 8. (I-210+)

"Optional Functions

Factory integrated Service Switch Capability
- Soft Switch Functions
- AMR Communications (AMR Interface formats include quadrature
pulse, PSEM,
SPI Format-1 data, SPI Format-2 Data
- Simple Voltag Event monitoring in addition to RMS momentary
voltage display "


=========

On Page 9 of the PDF under the table titled "Residential Meter Selector"
..
Look at the middle column for "I-210+ Basic Energy",

Go down to Items
10(Service switch) and
11(Remote disconnect).

Both are listed as "Factory installed option for I-210+"..


=========

From my conversations with GE'e engineer, some of the ordering options for the GE-210+
residential meters a

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both sides, no=220v appliance
operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

=========

Now go outside and look at GE I-210+ smart meter installed on the side of your house. (if
you have one). Write down the extra options installed, just to the right of "I-210+"
inside a rectangle box outline (Very close to the exact center of the meter face).

On Wed, 30 May 2012 12:29:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:22:27 -0400, T. Keating
wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:16:26 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

(Gordon Burditt) wrote in news:apKdnW-
ca:

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that they
allow for time-of-use billing.

And more....

I can't speak for the meter you have but FPL is installing the GE 210+

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/smart...g/i210plus.htm

It is just an electronic meter, no "cut off" hardware or anything else

This meter feeds a low power RF device inside the meter that
communicates with a transmitter on the pole and from there it relays
the info to the utility in real time.

Silver Spring NIC 314

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/

The meter seems to be capable of transmitting a couple hundred yards
based on the distribution of the pole mounted access units.

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/ni-relay.html

(they also relay data from meter to meter.)


As for remote disconnect, I see you haven't done your homework..

I called up GE and talked to an engineer about the various
undocumented ordering options, some of ordering designations for the
GE I-210+ are,

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both
sides, no=220v appliance operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

Now go outside and check the installed options on your smart electric
meter.


To do all of that you need the energy management system attached to
your service panel. I don't have one, do you?

No, All you have to do is look at the smart meter.. The factory installed options are
plain as day.. (filled in circles next to each install option, outlined by rectangle box
almost in exact center of meter.)

Now is that so hard.. Or are you legally blind?

On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:22:27 -0400, T. Keating
wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:16:26 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

(Gordon Burditt) wrote in news:apKdnW-
a:

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that they
allow for time-of-use billing.

And more....

I can't speak for the meter you have but FPL is installing the GE 210+

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/smart...g/i210plus.htm

It is just an electronic meter, no "cut off" hardware or anything else

This meter feeds a low power RF device inside the meter that
communicates with a transmitter on the pole and from there it relays
the info to the utility in real time.

Silver Spring NIC 314

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/

The meter seems to be capable of transmitting a couple hundred yards
based on the distribution of the pole mounted access units.

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/ni-relay.html

(they also relay data from meter to meter.)


As for remote disconnect, I see you haven't done your homework..

I called up GE and talked to an engineer about the various
undocumented ordering options, some of ordering designations for the
GE I-210+ are,

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both
sides, no=220v appliance operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

Now go outside and check the installed options on your smart electric
meter.
Up here they are not GE. We have Sensus iSA2 meters with FlexNet
530X communication. Also known as the i-con a. It is a bi-directional
meter with nocut-off or disconnect capability. The iSA3 is required
for remote disconnect.

On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:34:12 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/30/2012 6:43 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...

The ones being installed by FPL, 4.3 Million residential meters, can
remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to
the same 120v input. Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the
household.

I don't see any indication of that in the GE product data sheet. Can
you provide a link to that; it seems unlikely design feature to me.

Particularly since it would put the entire load on one side of the transformer
and lead in (and neutral connection).

They can also remotely turn on and off the service.
...

If FPL is using a capable-meter and installing the 2-way communications
module, then that is a possibility.

Can you confirm which GE model FPL is actually using and which options
they bought?

On 5/30/2012 10:39 AM, T. Keating wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2012 10:17:46 -0500, wrote:

On 5/30/2012 8:48 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...

No, I have an accurate mechanical meter..

How do you know that?

By confirming accurate measurement using alternate measurement
methods.. (Controlled experiments, shut off all circuits except
calibrated/individually measured loads, etc)

I just looked on the FPL site; there's no indication on the application
for net metering that it's not the same procedure for the smart meters
as mechanical.

I think the complaints/concerns are made up, frankly.

--

wrote:

Up here they are not GE. We have Sensus iSA2 meters with FlexNet
530X communication.

I have the same meter.

On Thu, 31 May 2012 00:54:29 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2012 13:33:54 -0400, T. Keating
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2012 12:29:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:22:27 -0400, T. Keating
wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:16:26 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

(Gordon Burditt) wrote in news:apKdnW-
rica:

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that they
allow for time-of-use billing.

And more....

I can't speak for the meter you have but FPL is installing the GE 210+

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/smart...g/i210plus.htm

It is just an electronic meter, no "cut off" hardware or anything else

This meter feeds a low power RF device inside the meter that
communicates with a transmitter on the pole and from there it relays
the info to the utility in real time.

Silver Spring NIC 314

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/

The meter seems to be capable of transmitting a couple hundred yards
based on the distribution of the pole mounted access units.

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/ni-relay.html

(they also relay data from meter to meter.)


As for remote disconnect, I see you haven't done your homework..

I called up GE and talked to an engineer about the various
undocumented ordering options, some of ordering designations for the
GE I-210+ are,

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both
sides, no=220v appliance operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

Now go outside and check the installed options on your smart electric
meter.


To do all of that you need the energy management system attached to
your service panel. I don't have one, do you?

No, All you have to do is look at the smart meter.. The factory installed options are
plain as day.. (filled in circles next to each install option, outlined by rectangle box
almost in exact center of meter.)

Now is that so hard.. Or are you legally blind?

That refers to the options in the communication module. You still need
the switching hardware. That is not going to fit in that meter.

How do you think they are switching 200 amps? What kind of device?

It's probably a latching relay of some sort.

Again, documented features of the i-210+... .

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/produ...210_Family.pdf
Look up the term "service switch"..
Page 4.

"Advanced Functionality

With the addition of the fully rated 200 amp service switch, the meter is capable of
pre-payment metering without all the historical cost associated with card readers or other
legacy pre-payment technology. Load limiting and emergency conservation modes set this
meter apart when working in conjunction with a demand response program. Having the
capability to be remotely configured, as well as being firmware upgradeable, this product
serves todays needs, as well as tomorrows evolving requirements."

==========

Page 8. (I-210+)

"Optional Functions

Factory integrated Service Switch Capability
- Soft Switch Functions
- AMR Communications (AMR Interface formats include quadrature
pulse, PSEM,
SPI Format-1 data, SPI Format-2 Data
- Simple Voltag Event monitoring in addition to RMS momentary
voltage display "


=========

On Page 9 of the PDF under the table titled "Residential Meter Selector"
..
Look at the middle column for "I-210+ Basic Energy",

Go down to Items
10(Service switch) and
11(Remote disconnect).

Both are listed as "Factory installed option for I-210+"..


=========

From my conversations with GE'e engineer, some of the ordering options for the GE-210+
residential meters a

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both sides, no=220v appliance
operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

=========

Now go outside and look at GE I-210+ smart meter installed on the side of your house. (if
you have one). Write down the extra options installed, just to the right of "I-210+"
inside a rectangle box outline (Very close to the exact center of the meter face).

On Wed, 30 May 2012 20:30:45 -0400, "
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:34:12 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/30/2012 6:43 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...

The ones being installed by FPL, 4.3 Million residential meters, can
remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to
the same 120v input. Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the
household.

I don't see any indication of that in the GE product data sheet. Can
you provide a link to that; it seems unlikely design feature to me.

Particularly since it would put the entire load on one side of the transformer
and lead in (and neutral connection).

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/produ...210_Family.pdf


They can also remotely turn on and off the service.
...

If FPL is using a capable-meter and installing the 2-way communications
module, then that is a possibility.

Can you confirm which GE model FPL is actually using and which options
they bought?

On 5/31/2012 3:02 AM, T. Keating wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2012 20:30:45 -0400, z
wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:34:12 -0500, wrote:
On 5/30/2012 6:43 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...
....
remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to
the same 120v input. Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the
household.

I don't see any indication of that in the GE product data sheet. Can
you provide a link to that; it seems unlikely design feature to me.

Particularly since it would put the entire load on one side of the transformer
and lead in (and neutral connection).

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/produ...210_Family.pdf

....

I've read that brochure from cover to cover several times and still see
no indication of the above "capability". Remote deactivation, yes; 240V
disable--don't see it.

--

On May 31, 9:11*am, dpb wrote:
On 5/31/2012 3:02 AM, T. Keating wrote:



On Wed, 30 May 2012 20:30:45 -0400, zzz
wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:34:12 -0500, *wrote:
On 5/30/2012 6:43 AM, T. Keating wrote:
...
...
remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to
the same 120v input. *Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the
household.

I don't see any indication of that in the GE product data sheet. *Can
you provide a link to that; it seems unlikely design feature to me.

Particularly since it would put the entire load on one side of the transformer
and lead in (and neutral connection).

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/produ...210_Family.pdf

...

I've read that brochure from cover to cover several times and still see
no indication of the above "capability". *Remote deactivation, yes; 240V
disable--don't see it.

--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If it did connect both hots going into the house to one
hot in the service cable, that would disable the 240V
loads in the house. But unless the service conductors
from the street to the house were capable of handling
the double load, it would exceed their current carrying
capability.

Example:

200A service, so the three conductors are rated to
carry 200A and no conductor ever exceeds that.
You could have 200A coming on one hot, returning
on the neutral. Or you could have 200A coming on
one hot, returning on the other. Or any combo of
the above, but it would never exceed 200A in any
conductor.

Now connect both hots in the house to one incoming
hot and you could pull 400A through that one
conductor and have it return via the neutral.

T. Keating wrote in
:

On Wed, 30 May 2012 12:29:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:22:27 -0400, T. Keating
wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:16:26 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

(Gordon Burditt) wrote in news:apKdnW-
ica:

The often-stated case for smart meters (for electricity) is that
they allow for time-of-use billing.

And more....

I can't speak for the meter you have but FPL is installing the GE
210+

http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/smart...g/i210plus.htm

It is just an electronic meter, no "cut off" hardware or anything
else

This meter feeds a low power RF device inside the meter that
communicates with a transmitter on the pole and from there it relays
the info to the utility in real time.

Silver Spring NIC 314

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/

The meter seems to be capable of transmitting a couple hundred yards
based on the distribution of the pole mounted access units.

http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/ni-relay.html

(they also relay data from meter to meter.)


As for remote disconnect, I see you haven't done your homework..

I called up GE and talked to an engineer about the various
undocumented ordering options, some of ordering designations for the
GE I-210+ are,

O = AMR,
V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor,
F2 = Demand limit,
J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both
sides, no=220v appliance operation.)
U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

Now go outside and check the installed options on your smart electric
meter.


To do all of that you need the energy management system attached to
your service panel. I don't have one, do you?

No, All you have to do is look at the smart meter.. The factory
installed options are plain as day.. (filled in circles next to each
install option, outlined by rectangle box almost in exact center of
meter.)

Now is that so hard.. Or are you legally blind?



I think what the guy is trying to determine is whether the I-210+ meter
actually has it's own internal switching ability to perform that "load
management",or if it must rely on some external relay built into that
"energy management system".

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com