I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

On Jan 28, 5:52*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

Either keep paying for two bills or call the power company to have
the two electric meters replaced with one meter feeding the two
panels...

Your idea of cross feeding would not be consistent with electrical
code
as you are feeding a panel with a 200 amp main disconnect from a
60 amp breaker...

If the "loads" aren't such that you need two panels you could move
all the circuits over to one panel and have the other electrical meter
removed...

If you do it the way you described you will only find that it will
cause
problems down the road...

~~ Evan

On 1/28/2012 5:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.


Sounds like you have one drop and two standpipes. I can't imagine two
drops, but I suppose it's possible.
If each standpipe is 200 amp, I would remove the unnecessary standpipe,
meter pan and service entrance cable to it's respective panel, and blank
that knockout.
If you only want to feed the now dead panel with a 2 pole 60 amp
breaker, I would relocate the airconditioning condenser cable from that
panel and move it to the main panel. This will minimize dimming when it
starts. You will also need to remove the bonding jumper on the now "sub
panel", and probably install a ground bar and remove all the bare
equipment grounding conductors from the neutral bar and move them to it.
Your feeder from the main panel will require 4 conductors, two hot, one
neutral, one ground

On 1/28/2012 6:34 PM, Evan wrote:
On Jan 28, 5:52 pm, wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

Either keep paying for two bills or call the power company to have
the two electric meters replaced with one meter feeding the two
panels...

Why do you think that the power company would do this?

Your idea of cross feeding would not be consistent with electrical
code

Why not?
as you are feeding a panel with a 200 amp main disconnect from a
60 amp breaker...

Nothing wrong with that. It'll be 60 amp wire protected by a 60 amp
breaker. The existing 200 amp is now moot. It would be the same if it
only had main lugs

If the "loads" aren't such that you need two panels you could move
all the circuits over to one panel and have the other electrical meter
removed...

If you do it the way you described you will only find that it will
cause
problems down the road...

~~ Evan

On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.


If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul

On Jan 28, 7:09*pm, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:



I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Evan wrote:
On Jan 28, 5:52 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is
served by two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two
circuit breaker boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about
eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both
bills; one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect
notice for the other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's
still a minimum bill, around $18/month. The power company still has
to read the meter, send out a zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't
begrudge them this minimum amount, but there might be a way to avoid
it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and
disconnecting the service for the other side of the duplex. I did
this with the natural gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum
monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the
powered box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the
neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest
load are the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp
breakers. All other electrical items are minimal - lighting,
computer, etc. Stove, dryer, and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a
licensed, certified, and disease-free professional electrician would
not enter into the computation.

Either keep paying for two bills or call the power company to have
the two electric meters replaced with one meter feeding the two
panels...

Your idea of cross feeding would not be consistent with electrical
code
as you are feeding a panel with a 200 amp main disconnect from a
60 amp breaker...

If the "loads" aren't such that you need two panels you could move
all the circuits over to one panel and have the other electrical meter
removed...

If you do it the way you described you will only find that it will
cause
problems down the road...


Thanks for the advice. What problems "down the road?"

RBM wrote:
On 1/28/2012 5:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is
served by two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two
circuit breaker boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about
eight inches apart. Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one
check for both
bills; one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect
notice for the other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's
still a minimum bill, around $18/month. The power company still has
to read the meter, send out a zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't
begrudge them this minimum amount, but there might be a way to avoid
it. I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and
disconnecting the service for the other side of the duplex. I did
this with the natural gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum
monthly charge. To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp
breakers in the
powered box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the
neutral). Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the
largest
load are the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp
breakers. All other electrical items are minimal - lighting,
computer, etc. Stove, dryer, and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a
licensed, certified, and disease-free professional electrician would
not enter into the computation.


Sounds like you have one drop and two standpipes. I can't imagine two
drops, but I suppose it's possible.

Yeah. My misinformation. One drop, two standpipes.

If each standpipe is 200 amp, I would remove the unnecessary
standpipe, meter pan and service entrance cable to it's respective
panel, and blank that knockout.

Good idea. I was trying to minimize the difficulty in returning everything
to its original configuration.

If you only want to feed the now dead panel with a 2 pole 60 amp
breaker, I would relocate the airconditioning condenser cable from
that panel and move it to the main panel. This will minimize dimming
when it starts. You will also need to remove the bonding jumper on
the now "sub panel", and probably install a ground bar and remove all
the bare equipment grounding conductors from the neutral bar and move
them to it. Your feeder from the main panel will require 4
conductors, two hot, one neutral, one ground

wrote:

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to
have a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get
local permits which will require inspection from your local
government agent. There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

I'm in Houston. What's this "permit" silliness?

When I replaced the circuit breaker box, I called the light company to
un-seal the meter. After I finished the job, I called the light company
again. They came out an re-sealed the meter. No permits, licensed experts,
or genuflections required.

On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:
On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:



I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Scary isn't it. I feel like I'm over regulated, but when I read some of
these posts, OMG it really is scary. What really kills me is that some
of these folks really believe that we couldn't function without a
plethora of government regulators, inspectors, agents, and what have
you, following us around and wiping our noses

On 1/28/2012 4:13 PM, wrote:
On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:



I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.
Remember, this is the LEFT coast!

Paul

On Jan 28, 7:30*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:
On Jan 28, 5:52 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is
served by two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two
circuit breaker boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about
eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both
bills; one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect
notice for the other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's
still a minimum bill, around $18/month. The power company still has
to read the meter, send out a zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't
begrudge them this minimum amount, but there might be a way to avoid
it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and
disconnecting the service for the other side of the duplex. I did
this with the natural gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum
monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the
powered box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the
neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest
load are the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp
breakers. All other electrical items are minimal - lighting,
computer, etc. Stove, dryer, and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a
licensed, certified, and disease-free professional electrician would
not enter into the computation.

Either keep paying for two bills or call the power company to have
the two electric meters replaced with one meter feeding the two
panels...

Your idea of cross feeding would not be consistent with electrical
code
as you are feeding a panel with a 200 amp main disconnect from a
60 amp breaker...

If the "loads" aren't such that you need two panels you could move
all the circuits over to one panel and have the other electrical meter
removed...

If you do it the way you described you will only find that it will
cause
problems down the road...

Thanks for the advice. What problems "down the road?"

Two units currently being used as one with "dodgey"
crossfeeding ? Why were 200 amp services installed to
each side of the duplex to begin with ? How large in
total area are both of the units ? Just because your
present usage can be met with one 200 amp service
doesn't mean that you should remove and try to cobble
together the two separate services into one...

You aren't using both kitchens are you ? Does that
mean you should remove one ?

~~ Evan

On Jan 28, 6:57*pm, RBM wrote:
On 1/28/2012 6:34 PM, Evan wrote:









On Jan 28, 5:52 pm, *wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart..

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

Either keep paying for two bills or call the power company to have
the two electric meters replaced with one meter feeding the two
panels...

Why do you think that the power company would do this?



Your idea of cross feeding would not be consistent with electrical
code

Why not?

as you are feeding a panel with a 200 amp main disconnect from a
60 amp breaker...

Nothing wrong with that. It'll be 60 amp wire protected by a 60 amp
breaker. The existing 200 amp is now moot. It would be the same if it
only had main lugs









If the "loads" aren't such that you need two panels you could move
all the circuits over to one panel and have the other electrical meter
removed...

If you do it the way you described you will only find that it will
cause
problems down the road...

~~ Evan

Except that unless the OP goes before his local zoning
authorities and cedes the current permitted use for two
units in the duplex and obtains a new permit considering
the building as only a single dwelling, each of the units
need to meet code as a separate and individually
considered space...

I don't see how 60 amp power supply to one of the units
from the other unit's power panel would do that... Not
if half of that is powering only the AC unit...

Just because the OP is presently using them as a
single unit doesn't mean that they are legally
considered as a single space...

Not since when constructed or last modified they were
required to be provided with separate 200 amp services...

~~ Evan

On Jan 28, 7:48*pm, RBM wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:









On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Evan wrote:

Except that unless the OP goes before his local zoning
authorities and cedes the current permitted use for two
units in the duplex and obtains a new permit considering
the building as only a single dwelling, each of the units
need to meet code as a separate and individually
considered space...

I'm in Houston. We don't have zoning. Some newer residential sub-divisions
have deed restrictions, but zoning? None. I could chop this building into a
four-plex (or more) and the city is indifferent. I could turn the property
into a high-end dog kennel and the city is indifferent. I could convert the
house into a metal stamping shop (gold plating at extra cost) and the city
wouldn't care.


I don't see how 60 amp power supply to one of the units
from the other unit's power panel would do that... Not
if half of that is powering only the AC unit...

Half of it is not powering the a/c. The a/c is protected by a pair of 30-amp
breakers, but, presumably, the a/c draws less than the full 30 amps.

I've measured the rest. With almost everything except the a/c running
(lights, TV, microwave), the total draw is less than 20 amps.


Just because the OP is presently using them as a
single unit doesn't mean that they are legally
considered as a single space...

My county tax assessor disagrees. I simply announced that the building was
now a single-family residence and the tax dropped by 40%.


Not since when constructed or last modified they were
required to be provided with separate 200 amp services...


As best I can tell, when this neighborhood was built (early '60's), there
was no requirement for a minimum service. Further, to the best of my
knowledge, there is no city requirement along those lines even today.

Evan wrote:

Thanks for the advice. What problems "down the road?"

Two units currently being used as one with "dodgey"
crossfeeding ? Why were 200 amp services installed to
each side of the duplex to begin with ?

Because the building was a DUPLEX.

How large in
total area are both of the units ?

1500 sq ft

Just because your
present usage can be met with one 200 amp service
doesn't mean that you should remove and try to cobble
together the two separate services into one...

I agree. But it doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't either.


You aren't using both kitchens are you ? Does that
mean you should remove one ?

One kitchen HAS been removed - to meet the definition of "single family
residence." That is, the stove and refrigerator were taken out and replaced
by a mini-fridge and a microwave. The area formerly known as "kitchen" is
now called the "snack area and bar."



Okay, all that said, I'll repeat the question: "What problems 'down the
road' ".

RBM wrote:

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very
different from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Scary isn't it. I feel like I'm over regulated, but when I read some
of these posts, OMG it really is scary. What really kills me is that
some of these folks really believe that we couldn't function without a
plethora of government regulators, inspectors, agents, and what have
you, following us around and wiping our noses

Me. Raises hand.

Evan wrote:

I am sorry, but until each homeowner who does such "work"
receives a $150,000 bill on top of whatever rebuilding costs
are involved after they burn down their house as they are going
to be making use of the fire department my property tax money
helps to fund to put out the fire that would result from improperly
done "work" which was never inspected nor correctly done, I want
those government regulators, inspectors and agents at least
verifying that the "work" that the DIY types have done won't
immediately set the house on fire... Especially if said home
is only 30 feet away from mine...

By that logic, it's either inspectors or a fire department: pick one.


Do you think that your trade would function better without that
layer of the uninterested 3rd party (a.k.a. the wiring inspector)
protecting your business/license in the event something happens
down the line...

Yes.

On 1/28/2012 11:50 PM, Evan wrote:
On Jan 28, 6:57 pm, wrote:
On 1/28/2012 6:34 PM, Evan wrote:









On Jan 28, 5:52 pm, wrote:
I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

Either keep paying for two bills or call the power company to have
the two electric meters replaced with one meter feeding the two
panels...

Why do you think that the power company would do this?



Your idea of cross feeding would not be consistent with electrical
code

Why not?

as you are feeding a panel with a 200 amp main disconnect from a
60 amp breaker...

Nothing wrong with that. It'll be 60 amp wire protected by a 60 amp
breaker. The existing 200 amp is now moot. It would be the same if it
only had main lugs









If the "loads" aren't such that you need two panels you could move
all the circuits over to one panel and have the other electrical meter
removed...

If you do it the way you described you will only find that it will
cause
problems down the road...

~~ Evan

Except that unless the OP goes before his local zoning
authorities and cedes the current permitted use for two
units in the duplex and obtains a new permit considering
the building as only a single dwelling, each of the units
need to meet code as a separate and individually
considered space...

I don't see how 60 amp power supply to one of the units
from the other unit's power panel would do that... Not
if half of that is powering only the AC unit...

Just because the OP is presently using them as a
single unit doesn't mean that they are legally
considered as a single space...

Not since when constructed or last modified they were
required to be provided with separate 200 amp services...

~~ Evan

Fair enough. I just don't see most locations as being quite as
controlled or regulated as where you are.
In my area, the four power companies that I work with, don't do jack on
a residential dwelling. It's all done by the electrician.
Regarding the adequacy of the service itself, my impression was that 200
amps per side of a duplex that has gas cooking and heating, was way
overkill and once converted to a single family, you'd be eliminating one
kitchen, so the entire panel would only be doing lights and outlets.
(except for the A/C) which I would move to the main panel, or increase
the feeder to the sub to 100 amps.

On Jan 29, 6:07*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:

Thanks for the advice. What problems "down the road?"

Two units currently being used as one with "dodgey"
crossfeeding ? *Why were 200 amp services installed to
each side of the duplex to begin with ?

Because the building was a DUPLEX.

How large in
total area are both of the units ?

1500 sq ft

Just because your
present usage can be met with one 200 amp service
doesn't mean that you should remove and try to cobble
together the two separate services into one...

I agree. But it doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't either.



You aren't using both kitchens are you ? *Does that
mean you should remove one ?

One kitchen HAS been removed - to meet the definition of *"single family
residence." That is, the stove and refrigerator were taken out and replaced
by a mini-fridge and a microwave. The area formerly known as "kitchen" is
now called the "snack area and bar."



Okay, all that said, I'll repeat the question: "What problems 'down the
road' ".

You know, Evan has a reputation for frequently telling folks that
either
they are too stupid to do what they are asking questions about or
else coming up with all kinds of bizarre reasons, non-existent code
nonsense, etc to say that it can't be done. He often sounds like
someone who doesn't think folks are capable of working on their
own homes. Rather odd for a home repair newsgroup.

Among the nonsense he's told me was that no one should ever dare
cut a PVC vent pipe from a furnace for any reason, because only
a pro is qualifed to cement that pipe back together. You know,
one of those pros with his butt crack hanging out that people
frequently come here complaining
hosed up their job. Maybe that's Evan. He's also told me that
nitrogen
used for purging or brazing needs to be recovered from an HVAC
system because it can't be vented into the atmosphere. And he went
on and on about the absolute necessity of cleaning your AC coils
every year, despite my referring him to cased coils that major
suppliers like Rheem make that have no means to do so without
cutting the thing apart. That's when I concluded he frequently doesn't
know what he's talking about.

Your case is another good example. He claims you need to go
before a zoning board for an electrical question, without knowing
anything
about where you live? And had you told him that second panel was
a 60 AMP one, then instead of bitching about how your 200 amp one
was too large, he'd be telling you how inadequate it was and how it
needs to be increased in size, what a fool you are to even consider
using it. Go figure.

RBM is an electrician and I'd trust his answer.

On 1/29/2012 12:15 AM, Evan wrote:
On Jan 28, 7:48 pm, wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:









On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Scary isn't it. I feel like I'm over regulated, but when I read some of
these posts, OMG it really is scary. What really kills me is that some
of these folks really believe that we couldn't function without a
plethora of government regulators, inspectors, agents, and what have
you, following us around and wiping our noses

I am sorry, but until each homeowner who does such "work"
receives a $150,000 bill on top of whatever rebuilding costs
are involved after they burn down their house as they are going
to be making use of the fire department my property tax money
helps to fund to put out the fire that would result from improperly
done "work" which was never inspected nor correctly done, I want
those government regulators, inspectors and agents at least
verifying that the "work" that the DIY types have done won't
immediately set the house on fire... Especially if said home
is only 30 feet away from mine...

Do you think that your trade would function better without that
layer of the uninterested 3rd party (a.k.a. the wiring inspector)
protecting your business/license in the event something happens
down the line... Your word that you completed the work properly
isn't very compelling evidence if a fire or worse occurs... But
when you have the documentation that the work done passed
inspection, you would not remain the default suspected cause
of the problems, if some other cause wasn't glaringly obvious...
Not to mention that the wiring inspector is interested in having
safe work done in their jurisdiction that meets or exceeds the
code standards that the jurisdiction has accepted and operate
under...

So how close to your home would you want an amateur hour
electrical job that even a first year student in the trade wouldn't
do work that badly located to where you sleep at night putting
your life in possible danger ? Hmm, if not for wiring, as you feel
safe with idiots being allowed to risk not only their lives but others
as well, what about for gas piping or plumbing... Would your
opinion on the matter change if you were at risk of your neighbor
blowing you up in a gas explosion or having the hot water heater
they tried to "fix" by removing safety devices from the tank land
on you as you sleep in bed at night and you still feel the way
you do about "over regulation" in your own trade... LOL...

~~ Evan

I'm a big believer in self regulation. Where I live and work, it's
actually a misdemeanor to do electrical wiring without a license, which
I think is probably unconstitutional, but until someone takes it to
court, it's the law. On his property, if he wants to do any kind of
construction, plumbing, wiring, etc. it should be his business. Yes, on
occasion people do things wrong or sloppy and bad things happen. Such is
life. I think there is something about the human, or at least the
American spirit, that doesn't want to be protected from itself.
As a second generation electrician, I can tell you that having a layer
of bureaucracy between me and my work, does little to benefit me if the
work I or my employees does, causes fire or death.
Having known dozens of electrical inspectors over the years, lets just
say that they are human too and all to often very corrupted

wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:52:18 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is
served by two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two
circuit breaker boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about
eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both
bills; one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect
notice for the other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's
still a minimum bill, around $18/month. The power company still has
to read the meter, send out a zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't
begrudge them this minimum amount, but there might be a way to avoid
it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and
disconnecting the service for the other side of the duplex. I did
this with the natural gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum
monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the
powered box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the
neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest
load are the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp
breakers. All other electrical items are minimal - lighting,
computer, etc. Stove, dryer, and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a
licensed, certified, and disease-free professional electrician would
not enter into the computation.


I am assuming these panels are very close together too, just in the
other "dwelling" (not "grouped" unless you rip out the wall)
I see 2 choices,
Plan A

If your panel supports feed through lugs, feed the second panel from
the rails of the first one using a 4 wire feeder sized to 200a
or put in a breaker and do it at 100a. (about as big a breaker as you
can hang on a pair of slots.)


As I said in the original post, the breaker boxes are eight inches apart.
And unless someone can come up with a reason to do otherwise - that doesn't
involve zoning, permits, or city inspectors, none of which are relevant -
I'm going with your Plan A.

On 1/29/2012 12:15 AM, Evan wrote:
On Jan 28, 7:48 pm, wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:









On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Scary isn't it. I feel like I'm over regulated, but when I read some of
these posts, OMG it really is scary. What really kills me is that some
of these folks really believe that we couldn't function without a
plethora of government regulators, inspectors, agents, and what have
you, following us around and wiping our noses

I am sorry, but until each homeowner who does such "work"
receives a $150,000 bill on top of whatever rebuilding costs
are involved after they burn down their house as they are going
to be making use of the fire department my property tax money
helps to fund to put out the fire that would result from improperly
done "work" which was never inspected nor correctly done, I want
those government regulators, inspectors and agents at least
verifying that the "work" that the DIY types have done won't
immediately set the house on fire... Especially if said home
is only 30 feet away from mine...

Do you think that your trade would function better without that
layer of the uninterested 3rd party (a.k.a. the wiring inspector)
protecting your business/license in the event something happens
down the line... Your word that you completed the work properly
isn't very compelling evidence if a fire or worse occurs... But
when you have the documentation that the work done passed
inspection, you would not remain the default suspected cause
of the problems, if some other cause wasn't glaringly obvious...
Not to mention that the wiring inspector is interested in having
safe work done in their jurisdiction that meets or exceeds the
code standards that the jurisdiction has accepted and operate
under...

So how close to your home would you want an amateur hour
electrical job that even a first year student in the trade wouldn't
do work that badly located to where you sleep at night putting
your life in possible danger ? Hmm, if not for wiring, as you feel
safe with idiots being allowed to risk not only their lives but others
as well, what about for gas piping or plumbing... Would your
opinion on the matter change if you were at risk of your neighbor
blowing you up in a gas explosion or having the hot water heater
they tried to "fix" by removing safety devices from the tank land
on you as you sleep in bed at night and you still feel the way
you do about "over regulation" in your own trade... LOL...

~~ Evan


On another note, some years ago, I pulled into a restaurant parking lot
and as I was backing into a space, a car came into the entrance and
began to try to go behind me, where there wasn't enough room to get
between me and the one parked car adjacent to me. Following the laws of
physics, she hit the parked car next to me and grazed the back of my
truck. When she got out of the car, I asked what exactly happened, and
she told me that she just left the service station down the street,
where she had gotten a brake job. Needless to say, her brakes failed.

OK, here is an example where you have a 5000 pound moving machine,
capable of doing all manner of death and destruction, improperly
serviced, causing a major malfunction. Should this and every service
station have a government inspector on hand to assure each potentially
deadly job was done correctly? What about do it yourself mechanics?
Where do you draw the line?
I think, to follow the laws of ~~ Evan, we'd need an army of
government inspectors to invade all aspects of our lives... for our own
benefit. I also think that this is exactly what our current president
has in mind

wrote:
On Jan 29, 6:07 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:

Thanks for the advice. What problems "down the road?"

Two units currently being used as one with "dodgey"
crossfeeding ? Why were 200 amp services installed to
each side of the duplex to begin with ?

Because the building was a DUPLEX.

How large in
total area are both of the units ?

1500 sq ft

Just because your
present usage can be met with one 200 amp service
doesn't mean that you should remove and try to cobble
together the two separate services into one...

I agree. But it doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't either.



You aren't using both kitchens are you ? Does that
mean you should remove one ?

One kitchen HAS been removed - to meet the definition of "single
family residence." That is, the stove and refrigerator were taken
out and replaced by a mini-fridge and a microwave. The area formerly
known as "kitchen" is now called the "snack area and bar."



Okay, all that said, I'll repeat the question: "What problems 'down
the road' ".

You know, Evan has a reputation for frequently telling folks that
either
they are too stupid to do what they are asking questions about or
else coming up with all kinds of bizarre reasons, non-existent code
nonsense, etc to say that it can't be done. He often sounds like
someone who doesn't think folks are capable of working on their
own homes. Rather odd for a home repair newsgroup.


Oh. I wasn't aware he was a nay-sayer or a carrier of a sign saying "Thy
Doom Is Nigh." I've sent his name off to the "It's Not A Pustule" society.

And thanks for the examples.


RBM is an electrician and I'd trust his answer.

Again, thanks for the endorsement.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:09:45 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:52:18 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.


I am assuming these panels are very close together too, just in the
other "dwelling" (not "grouped" unless you rip out the wall)
I see 2 choices,
Plan A

If your panel supports feed through lugs, feed the second panel from
the rails of the first one using a 4 wire feeder sized to 200a
or put in a breaker and do it at 100a. (about as big a breaker as you
can hang on a pair of slots.)

Why can't he use two 60A breakers (and wire), backfeeding the 200A (now sub)
panel through one of the 60A breakers. This is how I've always installed
subs.

BTW, he still has an entrance cable in the (now) sub-panel. Doesn't that have
to come out, along with the weather head and all?

BTW for the code junkies, what is the paradox with the feed through
option?

Please tell us.

On Jan 29, 9:17*am, RBM wrote:
On 1/29/2012 12:15 AM, Evan wrote:





On Jan 28, 7:48 pm, *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul * *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral)..

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.

On 1/29/2012 1:35 PM, wrote:
On Jan 29, 9:17 am, wrote:
On 1/29/2012 12:15 AM, Evan wrote:





On Jan 28, 7:48 pm, wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Scary isn't it. I feel like I'm over regulated, but when I read some of
these posts, OMG it really is scary. What really kills me is that some
of these folks really believe that we couldn't function without a
plethora of government regulators, inspectors, agents, and what have
you, following us around and wiping our noses

I am sorry, but until each homeowner who does such "work"
receives a $150,000 bill on top of whatever rebuilding costs
are involved after they burn down their house as they are going
to be making use of the fire department my property tax money
helps to fund to put out the fire that would result from improperly
done "work" which was never inspected nor correctly done, I want
those government regulators, inspectors and agents at least
verifying that the "work" that the DIY types have done won't
immediately set the house on fire... Especially if said home
is only 30 feet away from mine...

Do you think that your trade would function better without that
layer of the uninterested 3rd party (a.k.a. the wiring inspector)
protecting your business/license in the event something happens
down the line... Your word that you completed the work properly
isn't very compelling evidence if a fire or worse occurs... But
when you have the documentation that the work done passed
inspection, you would not remain the default suspected cause
of the problems, if some other cause wasn't glaringly obvious...
Not to mention that the wiring inspector is interested in having
safe work done in their jurisdiction that meets or exceeds the
code standards that the jurisdiction has accepted and operate
under...

So how close to your home would you want an amateur hour
electrical job that even a first year student in the trade wouldn't
do work that badly located to where you sleep at night putting
your life in possible danger ? Hmm, if not for wiring, as you feel
safe with idiots being allowed to risk not only their lives but others
as well, what about for gas piping or plumbing... Would your
opinion on the matter change if you were at risk of your neighbor
blowing you up in a gas explosion or having the hot water heater
they tried to "fix" by removing safety devices from the tank land
on you as you sleep in bed at night and you still feel the way
you do about "over regulation" in your own trade... LOL...

~~ Evan

On another note, some years ago, I pulled into a restaurant parking lot
and as I was backing into a space, a car came into the entrance and
began to try to go behind me, where there wasn't enough room to get
between me and the one parked car adjacent to me. Following the laws of
physics, she hit the parked car next to me and grazed the back of my
truck. When she got out of the car, I asked what exactly happened, and
she told me that she just left the service station down the street,
where she had gotten a brake job. Needless to say, her brakes failed.

OK, here is an example where you have a 5000 pound moving machine,
capable of doing all manner of death and destruction, improperly
serviced, causing a major malfunction. Should this and every service
station have a government inspector on hand to assure each potentially
deadly job was done correctly? What about do it yourself mechanics?
Where do you draw the line?


That Sir is a mighty fine question and a good example.
Next thing the folks in favor of big govt will want to
regulate that too. Here in NJ we had annual car inspections
done only by state facilities for years. There was no
statistically significant difference in accident rates
attributable to mechanical malfunction from states
where there was no inspection. Now new cars are
exempt for 5 years and old cars only get inspected
every 2.


Holy Connolly, I had no idea that NJ relaxed those rules. In NY it's
just getting uglier and just another reason I feel over regulated. I
have a new 2010 diesel Sprinter. Three countys in the state require a
special diesel emissions inspection annually, mine being one of them. My
regular mechanic is not going to spend the whatever thousands of dollars
to buy the machine, for the few diesel customers he has, so I'm forced
to go out of my way, to mechanics I don't like, to have this done.
Unlike in ~~Evan's world, where the government does this sort of thing,
we have a more Fascist system, where the government forces the private
sector to do this stuff.In any event, it's just another example of
government interference restricting my choice

On Jan 29, 6:02*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:

Except that unless the OP goes before his local zoning
authorities and cedes the current permitted use for two
units in the duplex and obtains a new permit considering
the building as only a single dwelling, each of the units
need to meet code as a separate and individually
considered space...

I'm in Houston. We don't have zoning. Some newer residential sub-divisions
have deed restrictions, but zoning? None. I could chop this building into a
four-plex (or more) and the city is indifferent. I could turn the property
into a high-end dog kennel and the city is indifferent. I could convert the
house into a metal stamping shop (gold plating at extra cost) and the city
wouldn't care.



I don't see how 60 amp power supply to one of the units
from the other unit's power panel would do that... *Not
if half of that is powering only the AC unit...

Half of it is not powering the a/c. The a/c is protected by a pair of 30-amp
breakers, but, presumably, the a/c draws less than the full 30 amps.

I've measured the rest. With almost everything except the a/c running
(lights, TV, microwave), the total draw is less than 20 amps.



Just because the OP is presently using them as a
single unit doesn't mean that they are legally
considered as a single space...

My county tax assessor disagrees. I simply announced that the building was
now a single-family residence and the tax dropped by 40%.



Not since when constructed or last modified they were
required to be provided with separate 200 amp services...

As best I can tell, when this neighborhood was built (early '60's), there
was no requirement for a minimum service. Further, to the best of my
knowledge, there is no city requirement along those lines even today.

Wow... No wonder why things work so well in Texas,
no zoning regulations, so like, I could drill for oil right
next to a school or apartment building and no one could
complain, right, since there are no regulations...

And the tax assessor relies on the property owners being
honest with self reported information...

Damn... Add that up with a part-time legislature and you
can really see how well that all works out for everyone...

Is it the honesty thing that works out the best ?
Or that nearly everyone is so well armed in Texas ?

~~ Evan

On Jan 29, 6:07*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:

Thanks for the advice. What problems "down the road?"

Two units currently being used as one with "dodgey"
crossfeeding ? *Why were 200 amp services installed to
each side of the duplex to begin with ?

Because the building was a DUPLEX.

How large in
total area are both of the units ?

1500 sq ft

Just because your
present usage can be met with one 200 amp service
doesn't mean that you should remove and try to cobble
together the two separate services into one...

I agree. But it doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't either.



You aren't using both kitchens are you ? *Does that
mean you should remove one ?

One kitchen HAS been removed - to meet the definition of *"single family
residence." That is, the stove and refrigerator were taken out and replaced
by a mini-fridge and a microwave. The area formerly known as "kitchen" is
now called the "snack area and bar."



Okay, all that said, I'll repeat the question: "What problems 'down the
road' ".

So you have 1,500 total square feet ?
Or 3,000 total square feet ?

There is a difference there...

I guess it sounds like you can do whatever the **** you want
since your area has no code oversight and no zoning rules...

Thank god I am not in Texas...

~~ Evan

On Jan 29, 6:12*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:

I am sorry, but until each homeowner who does such "work"
receives a $150,000 bill on top of whatever rebuilding costs
are involved after they burn down their house as they are going
to be making use of the fire department my property tax money
helps to fund to put out the fire that would result from improperly
done "work" which was never inspected nor correctly done, I want
those government regulators, inspectors and agents at least
verifying that the "work" that the DIY types have done won't
immediately set the house on fire... *Especially if said home
is only 30 feet away from mine...

By that logic, it's either inspectors or a fire department: pick one.



Do you think that your trade would function better without that
layer of the uninterested 3rd party (a.k.a. the wiring inspector)
protecting your business/license in the event something happens
down the line...

Yes.

Nope... Up in the civilized educated part of the country,
BOTH the building inspector AND the fire department inspectors
are involved in the construction oversight process...

Actually, your trade wouldn't...

Your word against your customer's word in court is an even wash,
the inspector's report and certificate speaks volumes as an
uninterested 3rd party to the transaction... Without a 3rd party
to provide impartial evidence you would be on the hook for
any fire caused by an "electrical" problem... Would be your
burden to prove it wasn't you -- civil cases are much different
than criminal ones, all a plaintiff has to do is have a causation
to bring the suit against you which is supported by the barest
minimum of evidence... The ball is in your court after that to
show by producing evidence that you weren't at fault...

~~ Evan

On Jan 29, 8:35*am, "
wrote:
On Jan 29, 6:07*am, "HeyBub" wrote:









Evan wrote:

Thanks for the advice. What problems "down the road?"

Two units currently being used as one with "dodgey"
crossfeeding ? *Why were 200 amp services installed to
each side of the duplex to begin with ?

Because the building was a DUPLEX.

How large in
total area are both of the units ?

1500 sq ft

Just because your
present usage can be met with one 200 amp service
doesn't mean that you should remove and try to cobble
together the two separate services into one...

I agree. But it doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't either.

You aren't using both kitchens are you ? *Does that
mean you should remove one ?

One kitchen HAS been removed - to meet the definition of *"single family
residence." That is, the stove and refrigerator were taken out and replaced
by a mini-fridge and a microwave. The area formerly known as "kitchen" is
now called the "snack area and bar."

Okay, all that said, I'll repeat the question: "What problems 'down the
road' ".

You know, Evan has a reputation for frequently telling folks that
either
they are too stupid to do what they are asking questions about or
else coming up with all kinds of bizarre reasons, non-existent code
nonsense, etc to say that it can't be done. *He often sounds like
someone who doesn't think folks are capable of working on their
own homes. *Rather odd for a home repair newsgroup.

Among the nonsense he's told me was that no one should ever dare
cut a PVC vent pipe from a furnace for any reason, because only
a pro is qualifed to cement that pipe back together. * You know,
one of those pros with his butt crack hanging out that people
frequently come here complaining
hosed up their job. *Maybe that's Evan. *He's also told me that
nitrogen
used for purging or brazing needs to be recovered from an HVAC
system because it can't be vented into the atmosphere. *And he went
on and on about the absolute necessity of cleaning your AC coils
every year, despite my referring him to cased coils that major
suppliers like Rheem make that have no means to do so without
cutting the thing apart. That's when I concluded he frequently doesn't
know what he's talking about.

Your case is another good example. *He claims you need to go
before a zoning board for an electrical question, without knowing
anything
about where you live? * And had you told him that second panel was
a 60 AMP one, then instead of bitching about how your 200 amp one
was too large, he'd be telling you how inadequate it was and how it
needs to be increased in size, what a fool you are to even consider
using it. *Go figure.

RBM is an electrician and I'd trust his answer.


RBM is a licensed electrician in ONE jurisdiction...

Apparently his territorial land is located in the middle of
the spectrum between NO regulation and the safer places
where when electrical fires DO happen it is because of
what people have plugged into the outlets, not mistakes
made inside the walls that were never checked by someone
who actually knows what they are doing...

As far as your bull**** about HVAC, yes, NOTHING is
allowed to be vented to the atmosphere under EPA
regulations, NOTHING... Anything put into an HVAC
system has to be recovered and properly disposed of...
Get caught doing what you described and you won't
be doing any further work on HVAC equipment when
the EPA shuts you down...

As to the PVC vent piping on high pressure boilers,
umm yeah, let most of the people here who have
trouble making WATER tight joints in PVC pipes
call a professional who makes many joints in a day
be the one to work on those vent pipes, because
vapor tight connections aren't something the average
homeowner is going to be able to do -- but then again
there are a few people here who ask stupid questions
who could probably make the world a better place
if they died from CO poisoning from a leaky pipe...

Yes... The zoning board determines how many
occupancies may exist on each plot of land...
If the dwelling is approved and permitted as TWO
units, then until the owner gets approved to
reduce the number of units to ONE, all services
to that dwelling must be maintained as if it
were two separate units... Which means a
separate electrical service, a separate water
connection, et al... Just because someone
declares that they have changed the use of some
building in most places doesn't make it so, the OP
seems to live in the land of exceptions, where he
can do whatever he wants without seeking approval...
That is just not the case in most places with an
actual population density where safety is important
because you are within arms length of your neighbor...

RBM advocated the use of an existing 200amp
service panel which includes a 200amp rated
main disconnect as a sub panel being fed from
a 60 amp branch circuit -- that would not fly
anywhere around here, you would have to remove
that main disconnect... So you would be looking
at replacing the panel which has the disconnect
with one which uses main lugs and supported
fewer branch circuits based on the amperage...

I hardly ever see any good advice from you either,
so perhaps that feeling is mutual...

~~ Evan

On Jan 29, 3:34*pm, RBM wrote:
On 1/29/2012 1:35 PM, wrote:





On Jan 29, 9:17 am, *wrote:
On 1/29/2012 12:15 AM, Evan wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:48 pm, * *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul * * *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? *What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. *Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Scary isn't it. I feel like I'm over regulated, but when I read some of
these posts, OMG it really is scary. What really kills me is that some
of these folks really believe that we couldn't function without a
plethora of government regulators, inspectors, agents, and what have
you, following us around and wiping our noses

I am sorry, but until each homeowner who does such "work"
receives a $150,000 bill on top of whatever rebuilding costs
are involved after they burn down their house as they are going
to be making use of the fire department my property tax money
helps to fund to put out the fire that would result from improperly
done "work" which was never inspected nor correctly done, I want
those government regulators, inspectors and agents at least
verifying that the "work" that the DIY types have done won't
immediately set the house on fire... *Especially if said home
is only 30 feet away from mine...

Do you think that your trade would function better without that
layer of the uninterested 3rd party (a.k.a. the wiring inspector)
protecting your business/license in the event something happens
down the line... *Your word that you completed the work properly
isn't very compelling evidence if a fire or worse occurs... *But
when you have the documentation that the work done passed
inspection, you would not remain the default suspected cause
of the problems, if some other cause wasn't glaringly obvious...
Not to mention that the wiring inspector is interested in having
safe work done in their jurisdiction that meets or exceeds the
code standards that the jurisdiction has accepted and operate
under...

So how close to your home would you want an amateur hour
electrical job that even a first year student in the trade wouldn't
do work that badly located to where you sleep at night putting
your life in possible danger ? *Hmm, if not for wiring, as you feel
safe with idiots being allowed to risk not only their lives but others
as well, what about for gas piping or plumbing... *Would your
opinion on the matter change if you were at risk of your neighbor
blowing you up in a gas explosion or having the hot water heater
they tried to "fix" by removing safety devices from the tank land
on you as you sleep in bed at night and you still feel the way
you do about "over regulation" in your own trade... *LOL...

~~ Evan

On another note, some years ago, I pulled into a restaurant parking lot
and as I was backing into a space, a car came into the entrance and
began to try to go behind me, where there wasn't enough room to get
between me and the one parked car adjacent to me. Following the laws of
physics, she hit the parked car next to me and grazed the back of my
truck. When she got out of the car, I asked what exactly happened, and
she told me that she just left the service station down the street,
where she had gotten a brake job. Needless to say, her brakes failed.

OK, here is an example where you have a 5000 pound moving machine,
capable of doing all manner of death and destruction, improperly
serviced, causing a major malfunction. Should this and every service
station have a government inspector on hand to assure each potentially
deadly job was done correctly? What about do it yourself mechanics?
Where do you draw the line?

That Sir is a mighty fine question and a good example.
Next thing the folks in favor of big govt will want to
regulate that too. *Here in NJ we had annual car inspections
done only by state facilities for years. *There was no
statistically significant difference in accident rates
attributable to mechanical malfunction from states
where there was no inspection. *Now new cars are
exempt for 5 years and old cars only get inspected
every 2.

Holy Connolly, I had no idea that NJ relaxed those rules. In NY it's
just getting uglier and just another reason I feel over regulated. I
have a new 2010 diesel Sprinter. Three countys in the state require a
special diesel emissions inspection annually, mine being one of them.

I have a 1980-Mercedes 300SD tubodiesel. One day a
couple years ago it was due for inspection. I drove over
to the state inspection facility and they told me to go
away and NEVER COME BACK. A new addition to
the law is that diesels older than like 1996 don't need
to be inspected at all. The problem is that before that
they don't have an OBD computer with emissions
data which is all they use now.

Which gets into another story about govt waste. Back
in the days of Christie Whitman, the feds imposed
inspection requirements on the NY area states for
emissions. They wanted the cars dyno tested at
highway speeds while the emissions were read.
Instead of refusing to do it, taking
it all the way to the supreme court, etc, she just bent
over. Cost us about $500mil, complete with cost
overruns, late deployment, inspection lines 4 blocks
long, etc.

Then, within about 3 years, the EPA decides that the
info from the computers in the cars is all that's needed.
As if they didn't know that was on the way already.
So, they ripped all of it out within 5 years. Now about
all they check is emissions via connecting to the car
OBD computer and test the brakes on a device where
they roll up and hit them and it shows force at each
wheel. They used to check horn,
wipers, headlights, headlight aiming, turn signals, brake
lights, tires, glass cracks, chips, etc... They lifted the
front-end and tried to rock the wheels to see if ball
joints were loose.

Now it;s emissions, brake, bye.


My
regular mechanic is not going to spend the whatever thousands of dollars
to buy the machine, for the few diesel customers he has, so I'm forced
to go out of my way, to mechanics I don't like, to have this done.
Unlike in ~~Evan's world, where the government does this sort of thing,
we have a more Fascist system, where the government forces the private
sector to do this stuff.In any event, it's just another example of
government interference restricting my choice- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I hear you brother.

On Jan 29, 9:17*am, RBM wrote:
On 1/29/2012 12:15 AM, Evan wrote:









On Jan 28, 7:48 pm, *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul * *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral)..

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.

On 1/29/2012 5:05 PM, wrote:
On Jan 29, 3:34 pm, wrote:
On 1/29/2012 1:35 PM, wrote:





On Jan 29, 9:17 am, wrote:
On 1/29/2012 12:15 AM, Evan wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:48 pm, wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Scary isn't it. I feel like I'm over regulated, but when I read some of
these posts, OMG it really is scary. What really kills me is that some
of these folks really believe that we couldn't function without a
plethora of government regulators, inspectors, agents, and what have
you, following us around and wiping our noses

I am sorry, but until each homeowner who does such "work"
receives a $150,000 bill on top of whatever rebuilding costs
are involved after they burn down their house as they are going
to be making use of the fire department my property tax money
helps to fund to put out the fire that would result from improperly
done "work" which was never inspected nor correctly done, I want
those government regulators, inspectors and agents at least
verifying that the "work" that the DIY types have done won't
immediately set the house on fire... Especially if said home
is only 30 feet away from mine...

Do you think that your trade would function better without that
layer of the uninterested 3rd party (a.k.a. the wiring inspector)
protecting your business/license in the event something happens
down the line... Your word that you completed the work properly
isn't very compelling evidence if a fire or worse occurs... But
when you have the documentation that the work done passed
inspection, you would not remain the default suspected cause
of the problems, if some other cause wasn't glaringly obvious...
Not to mention that the wiring inspector is interested in having
safe work done in their jurisdiction that meets or exceeds the
code standards that the jurisdiction has accepted and operate
under...

So how close to your home would you want an amateur hour
electrical job that even a first year student in the trade wouldn't
do work that badly located to where you sleep at night putting
your life in possible danger ? Hmm, if not for wiring, as you feel
safe with idiots being allowed to risk not only their lives but others
as well, what about for gas piping or plumbing... Would your
opinion on the matter change if you were at risk of your neighbor
blowing you up in a gas explosion or having the hot water heater
they tried to "fix" by removing safety devices from the tank land
on you as you sleep in bed at night and you still feel the way
you do about "over regulation" in your own trade... LOL...

~~ Evan

On another note, some years ago, I pulled into a restaurant parking lot
and as I was backing into a space, a car came into the entrance and
began to try to go behind me, where there wasn't enough room to get
between me and the one parked car adjacent to me. Following the laws of
physics, she hit the parked car next to me and grazed the back of my
truck. When she got out of the car, I asked what exactly happened, and
she told me that she just left the service station down the street,
where she had gotten a brake job. Needless to say, her brakes failed.

OK, here is an example where you have a 5000 pound moving machine,
capable of doing all manner of death and destruction, improperly
serviced, causing a major malfunction. Should this and every service
station have a government inspector on hand to assure each potentially
deadly job was done correctly? What about do it yourself mechanics?
Where do you draw the line?

That Sir is a mighty fine question and a good example.
Next thing the folks in favor of big govt will want to
regulate that too. Here in NJ we had annual car inspections
done only by state facilities for years. There was no
statistically significant difference in accident rates
attributable to mechanical malfunction from states
where there was no inspection. Now new cars are
exempt for 5 years and old cars only get inspected
every 2.

Holy Connolly, I had no idea that NJ relaxed those rules. In NY it's
just getting uglier and just another reason I feel over regulated. I
have a new 2010 diesel Sprinter. Three countys in the state require a
special diesel emissions inspection annually, mine being one of them.

I have a 1980-Mercedes 300SD tubodiesel. One day a
couple years ago it was due for inspection. I drove over
to the state inspection facility and they told me to go
away and NEVER COME BACK. A new addition to
the law is that diesels older than like 1996 don't need
to be inspected at all. The problem is that before that
they don't have an OBD computer with emissions
data which is all they use now.

Which gets into another story about govt waste. Back
in the days of Christie Whitman, the feds imposed
inspection requirements on the NY area states for
emissions. They wanted the cars dyno tested at
highway speeds while the emissions were read.
Instead of refusing to do it, taking
it all the way to the supreme court, etc, she just bent
over. Cost us about $500mil, complete with cost
overruns, late deployment, inspection lines 4 blocks
long, etc.

Then, within about 3 years, the EPA decides that the
info from the computers in the cars is all that's needed.
As if they didn't know that was on the way already.
So, they ripped all of it out within 5 years. Now about
all they check is emissions via connecting to the car
OBD computer and test the brakes on a device where
they roll up and hit them and it shows force at each
wheel. They used to check horn,
wipers, headlights, headlight aiming, turn signals, brake
lights, tires, glass cracks, chips, etc... They lifted the
front-end and tried to rock the wheels to see if ball
joints were loose.

Now it;s emissions, brake, bye.


My
regular mechanic is not going to spend the whatever thousands of dollars
to buy the machine, for the few diesel customers he has, so I'm forced
to go out of my way, to mechanics I don't like, to have this done.
Unlike in ~~Evan's world, where the government does this sort of thing,
we have a more Fascist system, where the government forces the private
sector to do this stuff.In any event, it's just another example of
government interference restricting my choice- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I hear you brother.


It's funny, I read these posts from guys like Heybub, who live in these
"lawless" lands, and I'm jealous. DPB showed some pix of his place,
absolutely God's country, and there is poor ~~Evan, the mere thought has
him trembling. Wonder where he lives? Maybe Vermont

On Jan 29, 1:35*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 29, 9:17*am, RBM wrote:









On 1/29/2012 12:15 AM, Evan wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:48 pm, *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Jan 28, 7:09 pm, Paul * *wrote:
On 1/28/2012 2:52 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family residence. It is served by
two electricity drops going to two meters connected to two circuit breaker
boxes. The boxes are on the exterior wall and about eight inches apart.

Each month I write two checks. (I tried writing one check for both bills;
one account ended up with a credit and I got a disconnect notice for the
other. Go figure.). Even if I use NO power, there's still a minimum bill,
around $18/month. The power company still has to read the meter, send out a
zero bill, keep records, etc. I don't begrudge them this minimum amount, but
there might be a way to avoid it.

I'm thinking of pushing all the power through one meter and disconnecting
the service for the other side of the duplex. I did this with the natural
gas connection and saved the $17.50 minimum monthly charge.

To do this, my current scheme is a pair of 60-amp breakers in the powered
box leading to the buss on the disconnected side (plus the neutral).

Both breaker boxes are rated for 200-amp service, but the largest load are
the a/c units and they're each served by a pair of 30-amp breakers. All
other electrical items are minimal - lighting, computer, etc. Stove, dryer,
and water heater are all gas.

Comments on the plan/scheme would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

P.S.
I'd be doing the work myself, so a possible $800 charge for a licensed,
certified, and disease-free professional electrician would not enter into
the computation.

If you get your power company involved in any way, you will HAVE to have
a licensed electrician do the work and he/she will have to get local
permits which will require inspection from your local government agent.
There is no way around it.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Says who and for where? *What's allowed in TX is likely very different
from NYC. *Here in NJ a homeowner is
allowed to do work on their own home that they occupy.
Perfectly legal as long as you get the necessary permit.

Scary isn't it. I feel like I'm over regulated, but when I read some of
these posts, OMG it really is scary. What really kills me is that some
of these folks really believe that we couldn't function without a
plethora of government regulators, inspectors, agents, and what have
you, following us around and wiping our noses

I am sorry, but until each homeowner who does such "work"
receives a $150,000 bill on top of whatever rebuilding costs
are involved after they burn down their house as they are going
to be making use of the fire department my property tax money
helps to fund to put out the fire that would result from improperly
done "work" which was never inspected nor correctly done, I want
those government regulators, inspectors and agents at least
verifying that the "work" that the DIY types have done won't
immediately set the house on fire... *Especially if said home
is only 30 feet away from mine...

Do you think that your trade would function better without that
layer of the uninterested 3rd party (a.k.a. the wiring inspector)
protecting your business/license in the event something happens
down the line... *Your word that you completed the work properly
isn't very compelling evidence if a fire or worse occurs... *But
when you have the documentation that the work done passed
inspection, you would not remain the default suspected cause
of the problems, if some other cause wasn't glaringly obvious...
Not to mention that the wiring inspector is interested in having
safe work done in their jurisdiction that meets or exceeds the
code standards that the jurisdiction has accepted and operate
under...

So how close to your home would you want an amateur hour
electrical job that even a first year student in the trade wouldn't
do work that badly located to where you sleep at night putting
your life in possible danger ? *Hmm, if not for wiring, as you feel
safe with idiots being allowed to risk not only their lives but others
as well, what about for gas piping or plumbing... *Would your
opinion on the matter change if you were at risk of your neighbor
blowing you up in a gas explosion or having the hot water heater
they tried to "fix" by removing safety devices from the tank land
on you as you sleep in bed at night and you still feel the way
you do about "over regulation" in your own trade... *LOL...

~~ Evan

On another note, some years ago, I pulled into a restaurant parking lot
and as I was backing into a space, a car came into the entrance and
began to try to go behind me, where there wasn't enough room to get
between me and the one parked car adjacent to me. Following the laws of
physics, she hit the parked car next to me and grazed the back of my
truck. When she got out of the car, I asked what exactly happened, and
she told me that she just left the service station down the street,
where she had gotten a brake job. Needless to say, her brakes failed.

OK, here is an example where you have a 5000 pound moving machine,
capable of doing all manner of death and destruction, improperly
serviced, causing a major malfunction. Should this and every service
station have a government inspector on hand to assure each potentially
deadly job was done correctly? What about do it yourself mechanics?
Where do you draw the line?

That Sir is a mighty fine question and a good example.
Next thing the folks in favor of big govt will want to
regulate that too. *Here in NJ we had annual car inspections
done only by state facilities for years. *There was no
statistically significant difference in accident rates
attributable to mechanical malfunction from states
where there was no inspection. *Now new cars are
exempt for 5 years and old cars only get inspected
every 2.

* I think, to follow the laws of ~~ Evan, we'd need an army of
government inspectors to invade all aspects of our lives... for our own
benefit. I also think that this is exactly what our current president
has in mind- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree.

Just wait... You will experience those statistically higher
numbers of accidents when people realize that they only
have to do repairs on their vehicles once every 2 years,
and then only enough to pass inspection...

What studies were these ? Because just like causes
of death on an autopsy report, there are secondary
and tertiary causes of car accidents... Is that like those
mortality studies which blame death by gunshot when
the effect of being shot caused someone with high
blood pressure to have a heart attack ?

"Operator error" can be compounded by "cell phone use"
which was all made worse by an underlying mechanical
defect which was not repaired... Both the secondary
and tertiary causes here increased the amount of time
needed for the vehicle to stop, one due to a distraction
which increased the operator's response time and the
other which caused the vehicle's stopping distance to
be more than it otherwise would have been if the car
was in good repair...

Often times the people deciding why an accident
happened are measuring yaw marks on the road
and basing that decision off the speeds involved
and whatever witness testimony is available... No
one pulls the vehicles into an inspection bay to
check them unless there has been a serious injury
or fatality where criminal charges might result...
So until every last fender bender is investigated
by certified accident reconstruction investigators
I would call the data you refer to as flawed based
on being decided with only a cursory glance at the
actual facts involved...

~~ Evan

On Jan 29, 5:02*pm, Evan wrote:
On Jan 29, 8:35*am, "
wrote:





On Jan 29, 6:07*am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Evan wrote:

Thanks for the advice. What problems "down the road?"

Two units currently being used as one with "dodgey"
crossfeeding ? *Why were 200 amp services installed to
each side of the duplex to begin with ?

Because the building was a DUPLEX.

How large in
total area are both of the units ?

1500 sq ft

Just because your
present usage can be met with one 200 amp service
doesn't mean that you should remove and try to cobble
together the two separate services into one...

I agree. But it doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't either.

You aren't using both kitchens are you ? *Does that
mean you should remove one ?

One kitchen HAS been removed - to meet the definition of *"single family
residence." That is, the stove and refrigerator were taken out and replaced
by a mini-fridge and a microwave. The area formerly known as "kitchen" is
now called the "snack area and bar."

Okay, all that said, I'll repeat the question: "What problems 'down the
road' ".

You know, Evan has a reputation for frequently telling folks that
either
they are too stupid to do what they are asking questions about or
else coming up with all kinds of bizarre reasons, non-existent code
nonsense, etc to say that it can't be done. *He often sounds like
someone who doesn't think folks are capable of working on their
own homes. *Rather odd for a home repair newsgroup.

Among the nonsense he's told me was that no one should ever dare
cut a PVC vent pipe from a furnace for any reason, because only
a pro is qualifed to cement that pipe back together. * You know,
one of those pros with his butt crack hanging out that people
frequently come here complaining
hosed up their job. *Maybe that's Evan. *He's also told me that
nitrogen
used for purging or brazing needs to be recovered from an HVAC
system because it can't be vented into the atmosphere. *And he went
on and on about the absolute necessity of cleaning your AC coils
every year, despite my referring him to cased coils that major
suppliers like Rheem make that have no means to do so without
cutting the thing apart. That's when I concluded he frequently doesn't
know what he's talking about.

Your case is another good example. *He claims you need to go
before a zoning board for an electrical question, without knowing
anything
about where you live? * And had you told him that second panel was
a 60 AMP one, then instead of bitching about how your 200 amp one
was too large, he'd be telling you how inadequate it was and how it
needs to be increased in size, what a fool you are to even consider
using it. *Go figure.

RBM is an electrician and I'd trust his answer.

RBM is a licensed electrician in ONE jurisdiction...

Apparently his territorial land is located in the middle of
the spectrum between NO regulation and the safer places
where when electrical fires DO happen it is because of
what people have plugged into the outlets, not mistakes
made inside the walls that were never checked by someone
who actually knows what they are doing...

There you go again. Show us the data that says
fires are being caused by homeowners doing their
own electrical work.




As far as your bull**** about HVAC, yes, NOTHING is
allowed to be vented to the atmosphere under EPA
regulations, NOTHING...

Does that include the brain farts you periodically
discharge, like in this thread? Kindly show us all
where the law is that says that I can't allow nitrogen from
an HVAC system to enter the atmosphere. If I
buy a new coil, how is it shipped? Hmmm? It
comes with a small charge of nitrogen in it and
expansion plugs in the braze connections. So,
tell us smart guy, how do I use it without allowing
the nitrogen to escape? Without some new
invention, when I remove those plugs, the nitrogen
is coming out into the atmosphere. Hold your
breath!
Will the whales all die?
What percent of the atmosphere is already
nitrogen? Maybe they should shut down Rheem
for supplying dangerous crap like that which can't
be used without, according to you, violating
the law.

Geez, guys like you are really scary. You know
just enough to be dangerous, but think you know
everything, how the world should work and want
to regulate the rest of us and tell us what we can
and cannot do.




*Anything put into an HVAC
system has to be recovered and properly disposed of...

If I pee in it do I have to recover that too? Where
do I take the pee?

We all know that REFRIGERANTS must be
reclaimed and not allowed to enter the atmosphere
deliberately. Kindly provide a cite that says EVERYTHING
must be recovered.



Get caught doing what you described and you won't
be doing any further work on HVAC equipment when
the EPA shuts you down...

Priovide us with a cite or STF up.




As to the PVC vent piping on high pressure boilers,
umm yeah, let most of the people here who have
trouble making WATER tight joints in PVC pipes
call a professional who makes many joints in a day
be the one to work on those vent pipes, because
vapor tight connections aren't something the average
homeowner is going to be able to do --


You Sir are so full of crap, it's unbelievable. Who
said anything about high pressure boilers? It's just
another example of how you drag all kinds of
etraneous nonsense into these threads. I don't have a high
pressure boiler and never said a word about them.
I was talking about HIGH EFFICIENCY furnaces or
boilers. You know, the kind that folks here actually
have.

And regarding making PVC joints, I can see where
you're coming from. It's likely a great challenge for
you. So, you think the typical homeowner can't do
it. Everyone else here pretty much has no problem
making them and it's no harder, more difficult, more
demanding to make one for a PVC vent pipe for
a furnace than it is for a water pipe. Watch the
guy with the butt crack showing sometime. It's
prime it, apply the cement and join. So, stop the
hysteria.



but then again
there are a few people here who ask stupid questions
who could probably make the world a better place
if they died from CO poisoning from a leaky pipe...

Look, homeowners are installing their own gas stoves,
gas water heaters, gas overns, gas dryers. Funny thing,
I don't see houses blowing up everyday where the cause
was attributed to it being done by a homeowner
versus a professional. And I
think if there were a demostrable case that homeowner
jobs were sooo much more dangerous, that politicians
and regulators like you would have done something
about it a long time ago.

As for your silly CO leak, the amount of gas that could
escape from a tiny leak in an imperfect PVC vent pipe
from a furnace is pretty damn small. And it's pretty
damn hard to wind up with a leak. How exactly do
you know the guy with the butt crack or his imbecile
$7 an hour helper are doing it perfectly either? And
the products of combustion from a normally functioning
furnace have only trace levels of CO. You get CO
from a malfunctioning furnace. In fact, prior to direct
vent furnaces, you know where the backup vent for
those gases was, in case the chimney was blocked?
It came right out the face of the
furnace into the house or basement. Yet I'm
supposed to believe that I'm too imcompetent
to make a PVC joint on a furnace vent and folks
are gonna die?




Yes... *The zoning board determines how many
occupancies may exist on each plot of land...
If the dwelling is approved and permitted as TWO
units, then until the owner gets approved to
reduce the number of units to ONE, all services
to that dwelling must be maintained as if it
were two separate units...

Who the hell cares. Rag on



*Which means a
separate electrical service, a separate water
connection, et al... *Just because someone
declares that they have changed the use of some
building in most places doesn't make it so, the OP
seems to live in the land of exceptions,

You seem to live in the land of "know it all"


where he
can do whatever he wants without seeking approval...
That is just not the case in most places with an
actual population density where safety is important
because you are within arms length of your neighbor...

Rag on.



RBM advocated the use of an existing 200amp
service panel which includes a 200amp rated
main disconnect as a sub panel being fed from
a 60 amp branch circuit -- that would not fly
anywhere around here, you would have to remove
that main disconnect...

The main disconnect is NOT CONNECTED.
Maybe they would fail it for that where you are. But
so what? Are you 100% sure of what an inspector
wherever you are would say? Is that what you posted?
No, youcame at Heybub, like he was the village idiot.
RBM is a licensed electrician and he says it's
OK in his location. A lot more useful than your
blanket black and white hysteria.




*So you would be looking
at replacing the panel which has the disconnect
with one which uses main lugs and supported
fewer branch circuits based on the amperage...

I hardly ever see any good advice from you either,
so perhaps that feeling is mutual...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -


I sure hope it's mutual, because I wouldn't want
you agreeing with me on anything. You see
anyone else here agreeing with you?

On 1/29/2012 1:22 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:28:30 -0500, "
wrote:


I am assuming these panels are very close together too, just in the
other "dwelling" (not "grouped" unless you rip out the wall)
I see 2 choices,
Plan A

If your panel supports feed through lugs, feed the second panel from
the rails of the first one using a 4 wire feeder sized to 200a
or put in a breaker and do it at 100a. (about as big a breaker as you
can hang on a pair of slots.)

Why can't he use two 60A breakers (and wire), backfeeding the 200A (now sub)
panel through one of the 60A breakers. This is how I've always installed
subs.

BTW, he still has an entrance cable in the (now) sub-panel. Doesn't that have
to come out, along with the weather head and all?

BTW for the code junkies, what is the paradox with the feed through
option?

Please tell us.

That would be Plan A above, and he really only needs one 60a breaker
and feed the sub through the 200a main, or remove it and install MLO
lugs.. I suggested 100a but the same idea.
If he has feed through lugs in the first panel, he can use those and
feed #2 at 200a.

BTW nobody bit on the paradox. ;-)

Only question I have offhand is with the second panel fed from
main lugs on the first whether you have 2 service panels or a service
and subpanel. A subpanel requires some changes RBM got into. IMHO if you
have main lugs to main lugs you have 2 service panels. Main lugs to 200A
breaker - still 2 service panels?

--
bud--

On 1/29/2012 4:02 PM, Evan wrote:

RBM advocated the use of an existing 200amp
service panel which includes a 200amp rated
main disconnect as a sub panel being fed from
a 60 amp branch circuit -- that would not fly
anywhere around here, you would have to remove
that main disconnect... So you would be looking
at replacing the panel which has the disconnect
with one which uses main lugs and supported
fewer branch circuits based on the amperage...


Where is "around here"?
Why should I believe your sometimes wild ideas are actually what is
required "around here"?
Why should I even care what is required "around here"?

What is the NEC problem with what RBM said?

And from a different post:
Not since when constructed or last modified they were
required to be provided with separate 200 amp services...

Why do you think 200A services were "required"?
What determines how large a service is "required" under the NEC?

--
bud--

Evan wrote:

Wow... No wonder why things work so well in Texas,
no zoning regulations, so like, I could drill for oil right
next to a school or apartment building and no one could
complain, right, since there are no regulations...

In Houston, yes (there's an oil well in our largest city park). Several
others are scattered about. I know of at least one salt mine in the city
limits. Other cities, however, DO have zoning regulations.


And the tax assessor relies on the property owners being
honest with self reported information...

Of course.


Damn... Add that up with a part-time legislature and you
can really see how well that all works out for everyone...

Back when our legislature met for 90 days every two years, the editor of the
local paper opined that it should be the reverse.


Is it the honesty thing that works out the best ?
Or that nearly everyone is so well armed in Texas ?


Well, er, don't they go together?

bud-- wrote:
On 1/29/2012 1:22 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:28:30 -0500, "
wrote:


I am assuming these panels are very close together too, just in the
other "dwelling" (not "grouped" unless you rip out the wall)
I see 2 choices,
Plan A

If your panel supports feed through lugs, feed the second panel from
the rails of the first one using a 4 wire feeder sized to 200a
or put in a breaker and do it at 100a. (about as big a breaker as you
can hang on a pair of slots.)

Why can't he use two 60A breakers (and wire), backfeeding the 200A
(now sub)
panel through one of the 60A breakers. This is how I've always
installed
subs.

BTW, he still has an entrance cable in the (now) sub-panel. Doesn't
that have
to come out, along with the weather head and all?

BTW for the code junkies, what is the paradox with the feed through
option?

Please tell us.

That would be Plan A above, and he really only needs one 60a breaker
and feed the sub through the 200a main, or remove it and install MLO
lugs.. I suggested 100a but the same idea.
If he has feed through lugs in the first panel, he can use those and
feed #2 at 200a.

BTW nobody bit on the paradox. ;-)

Only question I have offhand is with the second panel fed from
main lugs on the first whether you have 2 service panels or a service
and subpanel. A subpanel requires some changes RBM got into. IMHO if you
have main lugs to main lugs you have 2 service panels. Main lugs to 200A
breaker - still 2 service panels?


My electric company has different rates for different times of the
years with an escalating scale for summer use when peak loads are
determined. So you might want to check that and see if the extra meter
could be used to keep you off the higher summer rates.