Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.


I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.


I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?



Thanks!

On Sep 14, 9:19*am, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?

Concrete is not mandatory provided the posts are long enough.

R

Thanks! Yeah, just go to google and search "putting fence posts in
concrete", and there are plenty of horror stories out there, about
trying to remove an old fence post that has been set in 20 year old
concrete! One of the neighbors on my street had to remove a broken fence
post that was set in concrete. It took him and 2 other guys OVER AN HOUR
to dig out the concrete, so that they could put in a new fence post.
Made a HUGE mess too! Thats why I was asking if it is absolutely
necessary to set fence posts in concrete.

On Sep 14, 7:38*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:19*am, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:





Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?

Concrete is not mandatory provided the posts are long enough.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text

From my experience, I would rather go ahead and put the post in
concrete. I feel it give better support to the fence. I also don't
use the type of concrete mx where the dry material is poured into the
hole and then water is poured on top. I like to mix my concrete first
before pouring it in the hole. This way I know without any doubt that
the concrete is going to set up properly. I've had some guys use the
dry mix method, and when the pole had to removed a few years later,
not all of the dry mix had set up properly. Still dry after a fw
years.

Robin

In article ,
(MICHELLE H.) wrote:

Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.


I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.


I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?



Thanks!

Farmers of my dad's generation put in a lot of fence for livestock.
That was largely barbed wire. Well, a lot of that fencing has been
taken out since a lot of farmers no longer raise livestock. I've never
heard of any of that fencing being concreted in. The dirt around the
posts was simply thoroughly tamped. It's time consuming.
One trick is to use fill sand around the posts. Tamp it in or pour
water on it to pack it. I've never tried it so can't say how well it
works.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:19:29 -0400, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:

Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

Like all things, it depends. How far down is your frost line? If it's 7-8',
it's unlikely *anyone* will put fence posts down 2-3' further. What sort of
soil. In sand, I'd use concrete. In clay, not so much.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.

To prevent them from rotting, put gravel (drainage) at the bottom of the hole.
Leave the posts in 4-6" of the gravel. This will tend to keep the end of the
post from sucking up water. You might want to seal the ends, too.

Replacing posts is an issue. There are some tricks that should make that a
non-issue, though. Such as: use board braced against the post and at an angle
to the ground. Then tie a line to the base of the post, up over this
diagonal, to a come along (or 4WD truck). Pull. The diagonal board causes
the post to be lifted, more or less, straight up, out of the ground.

If the posts aren't going down below the frost line, put them in sonatubes
backfilled with gravel. This will tend to keep the frost from heaving them
(actually, it'll let them settle back after).

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.

At the bottoms, to prevent rot. You still need several feet of post in the
ground to keep them plumb.

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?

Gravel isn't going to work. Crushed rock?

Yeah, I actually read just that on google!! That in the old days, when
farmers had livestock, they didn't have time to go around all day long
and cement every single fence post into the ground, on acres and acres
of their land. I read how they would just dig out a hole, put the post
into it, backfill it with dirt, and then pack the dirt down real good
all around the fence post.

Yeah here is one of the links a saw where people debate whether to use
concrete or not. In the middle of the page is the guy who talks about
using "crushed rock" in the hole around the post, and he claims he's
never had a problem.



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3185152AAhcYJi

MICHELLE H. wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.
What?! 2-3 feet below frost line? Where is it coming from? Our frost line is ~7 feet.
I have built cedar fences 5 times in my life time. Never used concrete.
Main thing is good drainage.

MICHELLE H. wrote:
Yeah here is one of the links a saw where people debate whether to use
concrete or not. In the middle of the page is the guy who talks about
using "crushed rock" in the hole around the post, and he claims he's
never had a problem.



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3185152AAhcYJi

Hi,
Crushed rocks mixed with little bit of magic sand is VERY good. Bag of
magic sand is quite a bit more expensive than ordinary sand.

In article ,
(MICHELLE H.) wrote:

Yeah, I actually read just that on google!! That in the old days, when
farmers had livestock, they didn't have time to go around all day long
and cement every single fence post into the ground, on acres and acres
of their land. I read how they would just dig out a hole, put the post
into it, backfill it with dirt, and then pack the dirt down real good
all around the fence post.

Close, but not quite. One puts the post in position, then throws
in a couple, three shovels of dirt. Tamp that thoroughly. Throw in a
bit more dirt. Tamp that thoroughly. Repeat. Repeat..............until
the hole around the post is filled to ground level. It takes time and
work to set a post solidly.
I've set a lot of posts for electrical panels in my job. I used to
set them as described above. It's easier to use bags of premix
concrete. I dump about half a bag of that in the hole and tamp it.
Dump the remainder of the bag in and tamp that. I use a 5/8" ground rod
as a tamper. It's a lot quicker but there is the cost of the premix.
I use treated posts. Those should outlast me by years.

A few more links debating whether to put posts in concrete or not:


1) This guy says use "gravel":


http://www.askthebuilder.com/713_Fence_Posts.shtml



2) People here are split 50/50. Some say use concrete, some say use
"crushed rock":


http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...005106073.html

MICHELLE H. wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence,
do the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.


I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete,
because when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to
replace them because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy
concrete.


I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better
to put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to
go with the crushed rock or gravel?



Here's a much better way. Use metal, galvanized, 2" posts set in concrete.
Bolt the cedar 4x4s to the metal posts.

I live backed up to a 200' wide power line property. The folks on my side of
the easement all have metal posts. The people on the other side all had
wooden posts (why, I don't know).

When hurricane Yikes came through here three years ago EVERY SINGLE fence
with wooden posts came down. Not a one on our side was damaged.

Now if the fence with metal posts needs to be replaced, unbolt the uprights
and install new ones. If in the completely unusual case of having to remove
the posts themselves, the posts are relatively easy to pluck out of the
ground using a chain and a bumper jack.

(MICHELLE H.) writes:

Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

The one I built was in clay. I used cement poured in dry with water
added as I poured.

If I wanted to avoid the cement, I would have still used cement
at the ends, corners, and gate. You need the extra strength there.

I felt I needed the extra strength because I frequently have large limbs
fall out of trees. I didn't want one limb to take out the whole fence.

http://mysite.verizon.net/despen/fence/

If I end up pulling one out, I'm sure I can deal with the extra work
of getting the cement out.

Since you are having this installed, go with what the installers
recommend.

--
Dan Espen

On Sep 14, 11:19*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
MICHELLE H. wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence,
do the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete,
because when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to
replace them because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy
concrete.

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better
to put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to
go with the crushed rock or gravel?

Here's a much better way. Use metal, galvanized, 2" posts set in concrete..
Bolt the cedar 4x4s to the metal posts.

I live backed up to a 200' wide power line property. The folks on my side of
the easement all have metal posts. The people on the other side all had
wooden posts (why, I don't know).

When hurricane Yikes came through here three years ago EVERY SINGLE fence
with wooden posts came down. Not a one on our side was damaged.

Now if the fence with metal posts needs to be replaced, unbolt the uprights
and install new ones. If in the completely unusual case of having to remove
the posts themselves, the posts are relatively easy to pluck out of the
ground using a chain and a bumper jack.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hey Bub has it right. You want the base for any long-term upright
fence set in concrete if there is any wind and you are building an
ordinary-looking fence. Only fences for stringing barbed wire don't
have a high wind-resistance concern. Using permanent metal base and
fastening the fence to the upright is the sensible thing to do.

On 9/14/2011 9:33 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:19:29 -0400, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:

Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

Like all things, it depends. How far down is your frost line? If it's 7-8',
it's unlikely *anyone* will put fence posts down 2-3' further. What sort of
soil. In sand, I'd use concrete. In clay, not so much.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.

To prevent them from rotting, put gravel (drainage) at the bottom of the hole.
Leave the posts in 4-6" of the gravel. This will tend to keep the end of the
post from sucking up water. You might want to seal the ends, too.

Replacing posts is an issue. There are some tricks that should make that a
non-issue, though. Such as: use board braced against the post and at an angle
to the ground. Then tie a line to the base of the post, up over this
diagonal, to a come along (or 4WD truck). Pull. The diagonal board causes
the post to be lifted, more or less, straight up, out of the ground.

If the posts aren't going down below the frost line, put them in sonatubes
backfilled with gravel. This will tend to keep the frost from heaving them
(actually, it'll let them settle back after).

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.

At the bottoms, to prevent rot. You still need several feet of post in the
ground to keep them plumb.

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?

Gravel isn't going to work. Crushed rock?


fence posts NEVER are set two to three feet BELOW the frost line. Maybe
2 to 3 feet below the surface max. Typical 6 foot fence would be set 3
feet max deep hole. Anyone who says they dig a hole deeper than 4 feet
total is just a flat liar. It's just not done without a big ol' pole
jockey auger like the power company uses.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 9/14/2011 10:58 AM, MICHELLE H. wrote:
A few more links debating whether to put posts in concrete or not:


1) This guy says use "gravel":


http://www.askthebuilder.com/713_Fence_Posts.shtml



2) People here are split 50/50. Some say use concrete, some say use
"crushed rock":


http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...005106073.html


here's a revelation for you all just incase you didn't know. Crushed
rock IS gravel.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:20:24 -0400, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:

Yeah here is one of the links a saw where people debate whether to use
concrete or not. In the middle of the page is the guy who talks about
using "crushed rock" in the hole around the post, and he claims he's
never had a problem.



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3185152AAhcYJi


That depends a *lot* on the soil. It's not likely to work well in very sandy
soil. You don't even need to do that in dense clay.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:12:34 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 9/14/2011 9:33 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:19:29 -0400, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:

Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

Like all things, it depends. How far down is your frost line? If it's 7-8',
it's unlikely *anyone* will put fence posts down 2-3' further. What sort of
soil. In sand, I'd use concrete. In clay, not so much.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.

To prevent them from rotting, put gravel (drainage) at the bottom of the hole.
Leave the posts in 4-6" of the gravel. This will tend to keep the end of the
post from sucking up water. You might want to seal the ends, too.

Replacing posts is an issue. There are some tricks that should make that a
non-issue, though. Such as: use board braced against the post and at an angle
to the ground. Then tie a line to the base of the post, up over this
diagonal, to a come along (or 4WD truck). Pull. The diagonal board causes
the post to be lifted, more or less, straight up, out of the ground.

If the posts aren't going down below the frost line, put them in sonatubes
backfilled with gravel. This will tend to keep the frost from heaving them
(actually, it'll let them settle back after).

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.

At the bottoms, to prevent rot. You still need several feet of post in the
ground to keep them plumb.

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?

Gravel isn't going to work. Crushed rock?


fence posts NEVER are set two to three feet BELOW the frost line. Maybe
2 to 3 feet below the surface max. Typical 6 foot fence would be set 3
feet max deep hole. Anyone who says they dig a hole deeper than 4 feet
total is just a flat liar. It's just not done without a big ol' pole
jockey auger like the power company uses.

Mine are set a good 2 to 3 feet below the frost line. Of course the frost
line is 6" here, but...

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:14:06 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 9/14/2011 10:58 AM, MICHELLE H. wrote:
A few more links debating whether to put posts in concrete or not:


1) This guy says use "gravel":


http://www.askthebuilder.com/713_Fence_Posts.shtml



2) People here are split 50/50. Some say use concrete, some say use
"crushed rock":


http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...005106073.html


here's a revelation for you all just incase you didn't know. Crushed
rock IS gravel.

But gravel is not crushed rock. Bank run isn't a good choice.

On Sep 14, 2:19*pm, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


..
So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?

Thanks!

This is by far the best method of fiixing fence posts.
http://www.buyfencingdirect.co.uk/Fence-Post-Spikes
I assume you have them in America?

The posts last three or fout times as long compared with concrete.

Use concrete and use galvanized steel posts.

For instance, Master Halco makes Post Master steel posts for wood
fences. If you use your imagination, there are many ways to get just
about any fence you want (single sided, double sided, flat on one
side, flat on both sides, etc.)

harry wrote in
:

On Sep 14, 2:19*pm, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our
yard. My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden
fence, do the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that
most fence companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3
feet below the frost line.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete,
because when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to
replace them because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy
concrete.

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better
to put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


.
So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to
go with the crushed rock or gravel?

Thanks!

This is by far the best method of fiixing fence posts.
http://www.buyfencingdirect.co.uk/Fence-Post-Spikes
I assume you have them in America?

The posts last three or fout times as long compared with concrete.


Says for "garden fencing".

Let's say you used those for a 6' stockade privacy fence which is what
OP said. Storm wind hits fence. What's the leverage gonna be at the
base? I'm thinking that bracket is gonna go like aluminum foil...the
store brand.

MICHELLE H. wrote the following:
Thanks! Yeah, just go to google and search "putting fence posts in
concrete", and there are plenty of horror stories out there, about
trying to remove an old fence post that has been set in 20 year old
concrete! One of the neighbors on my street had to remove a broken fence
post that was set in concrete. It took him and 2 other guys OVER AN HOUR
to dig out the concrete, so that they could put in a new fence post.
Made a HUGE mess too! Thats why I was asking if it is absolutely
necessary to set fence posts in concrete.



As I mentioned in this group in a message in the past, the fence company
that put up my 6' high x 8' long wooden fence placed the posts directly
in the dirt without concrete, except for the corner posts and the posts
that were to hang gates and doors. The 4"x4" PT posts were buried 4'
into the ground and have been standing since 1986, although I did
replace the deteriorating wood panels between the posts 3 years ago.
None of the posts had to be moved.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Sep 14, 1:01*pm, Red Green wrote:
harry wrote :





On Sep 14, 2:19*pm, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our
yard. My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden
fence, do the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that
most fence companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3
feet below the frost line.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete,
because when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to
replace them because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy
concrete.

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better
to put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.

.
So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to
go with the crushed rock or gravel?

Thanks!

This is by far the best method of fiixing fence posts.
http://www.buyfencingdirect.co.uk/Fence-Post-Spikes
I assume you have them in America?

The posts last three or fout times as long compared with concrete.

Says for "garden fencing".

Let's say you used those for a 6' stockade privacy fence which is what
OP said. Storm wind hits fence. What's the leverage gonna be at the
base? I'm thinking that bracket is gonna go like aluminum foil...the
store brand.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was reading the first few post where it was mentioned that farmers
in the old days wouldn't cement every pole. If I was putting up a
barb wire fence, I wouldn't either. Basically the weight between
poles is next to nothing and that type of fencing doesn't respond to
high gust of winds either. Basically with Barb wire fencing, you just
need tomake sure your corners are secure so you can run the wire from
one corner to the next in a tight fashion. You'll notice that most
barb wire fences have three large posts in east corner with a diagonal
strap between them for cross-bracing. In between the corners, most BW
fences have metal posts just to keep the wires at the right height.

Barb Wire fencing is completely different then panel fencing.

Robin

"MICHELLE H." wrote in message
...
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.


I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.


I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?



Thanks!


You already have a lot of opinions. I will share mine.

In 60 years of life and 30 years of fence building I have only had one
failure, the one where I did not use concrete.

Dig a tight hole, use nor more than 1 80 pound bag per hole, make a weak mix
and if you ever have to bust it out it won't be that bad. Weak mix is pour
it in a wet hole and add more water when half full and then fill and add
more water.

The primary reason people have to dig them out is because the did not select
center cut timber and plant it the same way it grew. You have to inspect
each piece of wood you buy and get the closest to a center cut as you can
find. The others have a greater tendcy to warp. Plant the wider rings at
the bottom of the hole.

And an inch or two of gravel in the very bottom is very helpful.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

On 9/14/2011 9:38 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:19 am, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.

I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?

Concrete is not mandatory provided the posts are long enough.

R

Around here, most fence companies only use concrete (if at all) for end
posts, corners, and gate posts. (IMHO, a gate that is used a lot should
have a concrete pad under it to keep the posts parallel, and avoid
mudholes developing in the ruts.) Depends a lot on soil conditions. If
concrete is called for, the post should NOT sit in a concrete pocket,
which keeps it wet all the time. It should set on several inches of
gravel with tamped gravel along the sides for another 8-10 inches, then
concrete above that. Wood posts should be naturally or chemically
rot-resistant material.

As to how deep- depends on local frost line and soil conditions. Around
here, for typical 6 ft privacy fence, it usually looks like 8 or 9
footers coming off the truck. Taller is better, so you can clip the tops
if needed, to get a straight line. Again, for ends/corners/gates, you
may want more post in the ground, and/or angle braces to the next post.

Unless you are young and strong, IMHO this is work to hire out. An
experienced crew makes it look easy. And their auger will be better than
the one you can rent. Unless you have a strong teenager that needs a
lesson, don't even think about doing more than 3-4 holes by hand- the
doctor or painkiller bills will eat up any savings. Posthole digging is
a lot harder and fussier work than digging a big hole with a shovel.

Usual caveats about checking local fence laws and setback requirements
apply. Fence company will likely have all that data available. If this
is on property line, many areas require the 'pretty' side to face out.
And pay attention to sail area- the more resistance the fence offers to
the wind, the deeper the posts need to be. In windy areas, alternating
picket fences are popular- both sides are 'pretty', and the wind blows
right through them.

--
aem sends...

On Sep 14, 11:38*am, mike wrote:
Use concrete and use galvanized steel posts.

For instance, Master Halco makes Post Master steel posts for wood
fences. * If you use your imagination, there are many ways to get just
about any fence you want (single sided, double sided, flat on one
side, flat on both sides, etc.)

Here's a flat-on-both-sides fence that's partially done, using the
aforementioned posts:

http://tinyurl.com/42ez6yu

If you have a fence post that has lasted for 20 years, then you have to
replace it...;......... Not a bad deal!! Three guys and OVER AN HOUR ???.
How inept can you be ( or how many beers were involved ?)

Bill
"MICHELLE H." wrote in message
...
Thanks! Yeah, just go to google and search "putting fence posts in
concrete", and there are plenty of horror stories out there, about
trying to remove an old fence post that has been set in 20 year old
concrete! One of the neighbors on my street had to remove a broken fence
post that was set in concrete. It took him and 2 other guys OVER AN HOUR
to dig out the concrete, so that they could put in a new fence post.
Made a HUGE mess too! Thats why I was asking if it is absolutely
necessary to set fence posts in concrete.

aemeijers writes:


Unless you are young and strong, IMHO this is work to hire out. An
experienced crew makes it look easy. And their auger will be better
than the one you can rent. Unless you have a strong teenager that
needs a lesson, don't even think about doing more than 3-4 holes by
hand- the doctor or painkiller bills will eat up any savings. Posthole
digging is a lot harder and fussier work than digging a big hole with
a shovel.

Hey!

Built my fence (203ft stick built) when I was 63.

Dug the 22 holes by hand with a post hole digger and breaker
bar when needed. (No, not in one day.)

You gotta push yourself or you'll feel old.

--
Dan Espen

On 9/14/2011 9:19 PM, wrote:
writes:


Unless you are young and strong, IMHO this is work to hire out. An
experienced crew makes it look easy. And their auger will be better
than the one you can rent. Unless you have a strong teenager that
needs a lesson, don't even think about doing more than 3-4 holes by
hand- the doctor or painkiller bills will eat up any savings. Posthole
digging is a lot harder and fussier work than digging a big hole with
a shovel.

Hey!

Built my fence (203ft stick built) when I was 63.

Dug the 22 holes by hand with a post hole digger and breaker
bar when needed. (No, not in one day.)

You gotta push yourself or you'll feel old.


And I salute you for it. But those of us who drive a desk for a living,
and only have so many outside daylight hours available for projects
(especially during the 5-month cold/wet/snowy season here in MI) have to
pick our battles carefully.

--
aem sends...

aemeijers writes:

On 9/14/2011 9:19 PM, wrote:
writes:


Unless you are young and strong, IMHO this is work to hire out. An
experienced crew makes it look easy. And their auger will be better
than the one you can rent. Unless you have a strong teenager that
needs a lesson, don't even think about doing more than 3-4 holes by
hand- the doctor or painkiller bills will eat up any savings. Posthole
digging is a lot harder and fussier work than digging a big hole with
a shovel.

Hey!

Built my fence (203ft stick built) when I was 63.

Dug the 22 holes by hand with a post hole digger and breaker
bar when needed. (No, not in one day.)

You gotta push yourself or you'll feel old.

And I salute you for it. But those of us who drive a desk for a
living,

I've been a computer programmer since '64.

and only have so many outside daylight hours available for
projects (especially during the 5-month cold/wet/snowy season here in
MI) have to pick our battles carefully.

Brrr. NJ is bad enough.

--
Dan Espen

On Sep 14, 9:08*am, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:
Thanks! Yeah, just go to google and search "putting fence posts in
concrete", and there are plenty of horror stories out there, about
trying to remove an old fence post that has been set in 20 year old
concrete! One of the neighbors on my street had to remove a broken fence
post that was set in concrete. It took him and 2 other guys OVER AN HOUR
to dig out the concrete, so that they could put in a new fence post.
Made a HUGE mess too! Thats why I was asking if it is absolutely
necessary to set fence posts in concrete.

Hmmp! Why remove the old concrete? Dig a new hole beside it, set a
new post, replace the 8' fence rails with 9' ones on the longer side,
and cut the rails on the shorter side to fit. Your fence boards will
still cover the same area. You won't see the difference on your side
of the fence and only one neighbor "might" make a comment.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:20:10 -0700 (PDT), Red wrote:

On Sep 14, 9:08*am, (MICHELLE H.) wrote:
Thanks! Yeah, just go to google and search "putting fence posts in
concrete", and there are plenty of horror stories out there, about
trying to remove an old fence post that has been set in 20 year old
concrete! One of the neighbors on my street had to remove a broken fence
post that was set in concrete. It took him and 2 other guys OVER AN HOUR
to dig out the concrete, so that they could put in a new fence post.
Made a HUGE mess too! Thats why I was asking if it is absolutely
necessary to set fence posts in concrete.

Hmmp! Why remove the old concrete? Dig a new hole beside it, set a
new post, replace the 8' fence rails with 9' ones on the longer side,
and cut the rails on the shorter side to fit. Your fence boards will
still cover the same area. You won't see the difference on your side
of the fence and only one neighbor "might" make a comment.

Tough to do for the corner post.

"aemeijers" wrote in message news:beudnXw0HbxDy-
On 9/14/2011 9:19 PM, wrote:
writes:
You gotta push yourself or you'll feel old.

And I salute you for it. But those of us who drive a desk for a living,
and only have so many outside daylight hours available for projects
(especially during the 5-month cold/wet/snowy season here in MI) have to
pick our battles carefully.

I once raked seventeen 39 gallon bags of leaves up from the lawn in one
superhuman session. I spent the next two weeks flat on my back with a
ruptured disk. I've since learned to pace myself. And hire a guy with a
mulching mower to suck them up!

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
MICHELLE H. wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.


I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.


I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?



Thanks!


It is somewhat dependent on the soil conditions where the posts are placed,
but most of the time it is fine to set treated wooden posts directly in
soil. In my area that is commonly done using PT 4X4 8 foot posts, set to
a depth of 24 to 30 inches for a 6 ft stockade or privacy style fence.
Such posts will easily last 20 or more years. I personally have seen such
posts outlast 2 lifetimes of cedar fence panels.



--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:54:26 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
MICHELLE H. wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.


I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.


I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?



Thanks!


It is somewhat dependent on the soil conditions where the posts are placed,
but most of the time it is fine to set treated wooden posts directly in
soil. In my area that is commonly done using PT 4X4 8 foot posts, set to
a depth of 24 to 30 inches for a 6 ft stockade or privacy style fence.
Such posts will easily last 20 or more years. I personally have seen such
posts outlast 2 lifetimes of cedar fence panels.

I've tried to get mine down to 36". That leaves 5' sticking out, without
sawing the tops off. For a 6' fence it works out pretty well. Someimes
there's a rock half the size of the state down there, so it doesn't always
work out. ;-)

Here in Alabama, the red clay can be tamped so well, there is no point in
cementing them in. When I was in NY it was impossible to get down 36" and the
soil just didn't hold as well, so I used concrete. Both fences used 6" x 6'
close-spaced pickets, on PT 2x4 rails nailed to 4x4 PT posts.

"MICHELLE H." wrote:

We would like to have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence
installed in our yard. My question is, when putting in the fence
posts for the wooden fence, do the fence posts HAVE to be set in
concrete?

Many people here don't really understand what's going on when it comes
to the longevity of fence posts.

That issue aside, there is some very basic information that you're not
telling us.

Where do you live? Your climate, temperature, humidity will play a
critical role in post longevity.

Unless you live in the south-west where freeze/thaw and water-soil
conditions are pretty irrelevant, then if you want a wooden fencepost to
last, it must be set in concrete, and the top of the concrete should
extend 6 to 8 inches above the ground level.

Wood posts will experience maximum deterioration 6 to 8 inches on either
side of ground or "grade" level. Well-mixed concrete will provide good
protection for that portion of the post that is set in concrete, and for
that protection to extend 6 to 8 inches above grade then you need to use
a cardboard tube (aka "sono-tube") to form a concrete pier that rises
above the grade level.

The use of concrete insures that your posts do not tilt over time, gives
the post some protection against direct exposure or contact with water
in the surrounding soil, and that they stay in exactly the position that
they are staked at when the concrete is poured.

The use of metal base-plates set in concrete that you bolt or screw the
posts into are only used by fools when it comes to fences. They are ok
to use for decks that have a 2-dimensional foot-pattern, but a fenceline
is a 1-dimensional foot pattern and you don't have enough lateral
strength in a pattern like that to use metal base-plate.

I know that most fence companies do set the fence posts in concrete
about 2-3 feet below the frost line.

In the lower-48 states and much of the southern tier of Canada, the
deepest frost line is 48 inches (4 feet). For a 6-foot fence, you
should go minimum 2 feet into a concrete-filled hole, so your posts need
to be minimum 8-feet long. The hole can be 3 feet, and you can throw
in a couple pieces of re-bar to give it strength.

If your posts are 4 x 4, then you need to use minumum 8" auger and drill
an 8-inch hole.

I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete,
because when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to
replace them because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy
concrete.

Because most people mix concrete like a jack-ass by throwing in cement,
pieces of brick, unwashed stone and other crap and then flood it with
water and think it will set correctly.

My backyard fence project uses 24 posts (each of them 6" x 6", 12 foot
long) set into 13" concrete piers that were drilled into very tough clay
soil, down to between 4 and 5 feet below grade. All piers had at least
4 pieces of rebar set into them. Some posts have a rebar "cage"
surrounding them when they were set into their hole. Posts are 10-feet
apart.

The posts are dense spruce (not cedar) and were painted to 2 coats of
creosote (at least the portion of the posts that were set in concrete).

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt
to go with the crushed rock or gravel?

Are you going to still be the owners of this fence in 10 years?

20 years?

30 years?

On 9/14/2011 8:19 AM, MICHELLE H. wrote:
Just a quick question about installing fence posts. We would like to
have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden stockade fence installed in our yard.
My question is, when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete? I know that most fence
companies do set the fence posts in concrete, about 2-3 feet below the
frost line.


I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in concrete, because
when the posts rot out, it is a backbreaking effort to replace them
because you have to dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.


I have read, as well as heard from people, that it's actually better to
put the posts in a couple inches of 1 and 1/2 inch crushed rock or
gravel.


So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or can we opt. to go
with the crushed rock or gravel?



Thanks!



Michelle, there are many who would tell you that having good solid fence
posts that resist rot has much more to do with the phase of the moon
when the holes are dug and when the posts are set. The Farmer's Almanac
always gave specific advice:

http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue &cp=21&gs_id=3e&xhr=t&q=fence+post+moon+phases&pf= p&sclient=psy-ab&site=webhp&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=fence+post+moon+p hase&aq=0n&aqi=q-n1&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=d 5bc1e92224c5138&biw=839&bih=483

In ,
Home Guy typed:
"MICHELLE H." wrote:

We would like to have a 6 foot high, Cedar wooden
stockade fence installed in our yard. My question is,
when putting in the fence posts for the wooden fence, do
the fence posts HAVE to be set in concrete?

Many people here don't really understand what's going on
when it comes to the longevity of fence posts.

You don't apparently; here's some corrections.


That issue aside, there is some very basic information
that you're not telling us.

Where do you live? Your climate, temperature, humidity
will play a critical role in post longevity.

You mean Weather Zone, somethiing which is easily found on the 'net.


Unless you live in the south-west where freeze/thaw and
water-soil conditions are pretty irrelevant, then if you
want a wooden fencepost to last, it must be set in
concrete, and the top of the concrete should extend 6 to
8 inches above the ground level.

No. Top of concrete should be below ground level, NOT above. For several
reasons, the most notable being maintenance: Easier to mow grass, less
cracking/separation of the concrete, removing the fence requires no extra
work since the cement is belows sod level. I have never seen 6-8 inch
concrete protrusions above ground anywhere I've lived, which is San Diego,
Oregon, Chicago, and far upstate New York being the coldest/worst for
weather closely followed by Colorado where our daughter lives and their new
fence is below sod level, exactly the same as ours here is. Anythink above
ground would only be for esthetics but not anything construction wise.

Wood posts will experience maximum deterioration 6 to 8
inches on either side of ground or "grade" level.

No. You'll find a lot more moisture and water near the bottom of deep set
posts than cntered on ground level. Our now 22 year old fence shows
deterioration at the bottom of the posts or near the bottom, depending on
where the seasonal ground water levels may sit for a few months at a time,
some times all year.
You also have a deterioration range at the clay level if you drove the
posts sthrough or into clay when you set them.
Use of the proper wook also matters of course.

Well-mixed concrete will provide good protection for that
portion of the post that is set in concrete, and for that
protection to extend 6 to 8 inches above grade then you
need to use a cardboard tube (aka "sono-tube") to form a
concrete pier that rises above the grade level.

Extra PITA work for nothing; there is no need for that as that is the driest
area of the post compared to the rest of the underground post. Concrete also
does very little to protect the post from water seepage but does a lot to
prevent the water from escaping when the water level drops.


The use of concrete insures that your posts do not tilt
over time, gives the post some protection against direct
exposure or contact with water in the surrounding soil,
and that they stay in exactly the position that they are
staked at when the concrete is poured.

Not so. Irrelevant to water protection, relavent to preventing post from
letting moisture out, and no post for a fence is ever going to stay in the
same exact position over its lifetime.
In fact, in our northern NY weather, the cement can provide a "grip" for
the thawing and freezing ground/clay/gravel will raise the post up faster
than a post without concrete. Three to four feet into the ground is the
post-depth for this area and the rest of most of the northern US. And fence
fabrics not perfectly applied (which is almost impossible) will cause posts
to rock towards each other during the freeze thaws.


The use of metal base-plates set in concrete that you
bolt or screw the posts into are only used by fools when
it comes to fences. They are ok to use for decks that
have a 2-dimensional foot-pattern, but a fenceline is a
1-dimensional foot pattern and you don't have enough
lateral strength in a pattern like that to use metal
base-plate.

Not true. Those are often used very successfully in the warm weather zones.
In some extremely sandy soils, it's about the only way to put up a fence in
fact. I assume wth your 1 & 2 dimensional stuff you're trying to refer to x,
y, z axis and completely missed the mark.

I know that most fence companies do set the fence posts
in concrete about 2-3 feet below the frost line.


Depending on the weather zone, that's correct; in fact, the zones show up to
four feet down, but not below the "frost line". The frost line might be down
three feet, so you aren't going to put in many posts at 3' for the frost
line, plus another 3 feet below that for the post - 6 feet into the ground.


In the lower-48 states and much of the southern tier of
Canada, the deepest frost line is 48 inches (4 feet).
For a 6-foot fence, you should go minimum 2 feet into a
concrete-filled hole, so your posts need to be minimum
8-feet long. The hole can be 3 feet, and you can throw
in a couple pieces of re-bar to give it strength.

Rebar? Boy, you like to add work for nothing, IMO.


If your posts are 4 x 4, then you need to use minumum 8"
auger and drill an 8-inch hole.

10 to 12 inches so gravel can be used to assist drainage.


I have read many mixed reviews about setting posts in
concrete, because when the posts rot out, it is a
backbreaking effort to replace them because you have to
dig out and lift up the heavy concrete.

No, not if done properly, which is to have the top of the cement below the
sod level. Over ten years ago I moved a part of my fence and extended it to
make a full half acre for the dogs. Not a single indication of ANY concrete
has shown up to date; just took a sawzall & cut the post as low as possible.
One of around 80 posts, including for the gates, are still set properly
after all this time, without noticeable deterioration. That single post has
risen about 4 inches and I fully suspect it's my fault for not using enough
posts where the fabric ended up pulling upwards on that post.


Because most people mix concrete like a jack-ass by
throwing in cement, pieces of brick, unwashed stone and
other crap and then flood it with water and think it will
set correctly.

To make me believe that's not just BS on your part, you'll have to prove
that with some sort of official citation because I have NEVER seen that
done! You toss insults around at people you don't even know and have little
to nothing to back up your statements. If it weren't for your name calling
and misinformation I could have just passed this post by but I feel that you
need to be redressed, especially for your childish namecalling.

My backyard fence project uses 24 posts (each of them 6"
x 6", 12 foot long) set into 13" concrete piers that were
drilled into very tough clay soil, down to between 4 and
5 feet below grade. All piers had at least 4 pieces of
rebar set into them. Some posts have a rebar "cage"
surrounding them when they were set into their hole.
Posts are 10-feet apart.

And where do you live? On the Strand between San Diego and National City or
under the brdge maybe?

The posts are dense spruce (not cedar) and were painted
to 2 coats of creosote (at least the portion of the posts
that were set in concrete).

Poor choices unless you live in CA maybe.

So, do you have to have the posts put in concrete, or
can we opt to go with the crushed rock or gravel?

Are you going to still be the owners of this fence in 10
years?

20 years?

30 years?

All irrelevant questions that are impossible to answer with any certainty.
You buld anything to specs, not "good enough" and maintain the property
value, not detract from it, which seems to be your goal.

HTH,

Twayne`