On Sep 14, 6:02*am, "HeyBub" wrote:

Yep. There was a miscalculation at the get-go. Some felt that with the
roaring economy, we could afford the wars. What was left out of the formula
was the possibility that Democrats would take over the Congress and/or the
presidency.

Maybe you should use a paint roller on a billboard...there's a lot
more to do with this than rhetoric.

http://www.marke****ch.com/story/rea...0?pagenumber=2

On 9/13/2011 9:18 AM, dgk wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:24:31 -0400,
wrote:

On 9/13/2011 2:10 AM, harry wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:05 pm, wrote:
On 9/12/2011 7:47 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:





On Sep 12, 2:35 am, wrote:

You may get with drawal symptoms.
Lots of cover over here too. (UK)
Hypocrisy.
What about the millions of innocent people America has killed over the
last fifty years?
I have very little sympathy. You are responsible for the government
you voted in. 11-9 was a consequense of past US government policy.
I hope Americans have got the message.
It's not nice getting your cities bombed.
Many times more people got killed in Bush's subsequent wars.
And they have not been won or fixed the problem, they have made things
worse.
Still, what do you expect when you elect a retard as president?
Incredibly, there is an even bigger retard in the pipeline in the
shape of the Palin object.

In fact, the terrorists won, America has been brought to it's knees in
part due to the cost of the wars and security.

Folly Folly Folly.

Hating our government doesn't mean you need to show us (the people)
disrespect. That is within yourself and I'm thankful for most of your
country's folk who are our friends.
You say you come here for visits and have friends here...why do you
find it necessary to be so vile here?

Some folks live in their own self imposed and hateful world. They get up
every morning knowing that their twisted views trump those of 100's of
million of normal people. Hard to imagine that anyone can be an alqueida
sympathizer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't sympathise with them at all. But I can see why it all
happened. But you and other Americans are too stupid too see that
what goes around comes around.
America has completely f****d upthe middle east to the detrimentof
the world.

Americans live in Lalaland. They don't give a toss about the rest of
the world.They think they can just pillage it at will and with
impunity.
Well you have had a messge.

You can't.

Are you receiving?

As I said, there are some people who live in their own self imposed and
hateful world who know their views trump those of normal people. Have
someone read what you write to you. Maybe it will sink in?

You both have your views George.




Sure, but this is more than that. Normal folks see that everything has
good and bad. Some folks live in a self imposed bitter and hateful world
without that balance.

Harry posts in this group for only one reason. That is to let everyone
know how bitter and hateful he is because he has convinced himself there
is nothing good about the US.






I'm American but I tend to agree with
Harry. I grew up during Vietnam, trying to understand why my country
was fighting against the clear will of the Vietnamese people. Our
country, born in revolution against colonial (and corporate) control,
was fighting for the colonial powers.

I found a likely answer in the writings of a true American hero,
Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler (look him up). General
Butler, winner of the Medal of Honor in two separate wars, wrote that
we go to war because it is in the interests of powerful individuals
and corporations to do so. He's been dead many years now but looking
at things through that perspective explains why we are involved all
over the world. Not for Mom, Apple Pie, or Democracy. It's for profit,
profit for corporations that have no loyalty to the US.

Here are some of General Butler's words, read them and see if maybe
Iraq now makes sense to you. If you feel that we have the right to
rape the world for the benefit of the already powerful, then feel free
to believe that. General Butler writes about wars that we have
forgotten about for the most part, or maybe never even learned about.
But they were fought, because, well, not for the offical reasons:

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and
during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for
Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a
racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and
especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped
make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to
collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central
American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify
Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in
1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American
sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American
fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that
Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might
have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate
his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:10:44 -0400, George
wrote:

On 9/13/2011 9:18 AM, dgk wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:24:31 -0400,
wrote:

On 9/13/2011 2:10 AM, harry wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:05 pm, wrote:
On 9/12/2011 7:47 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:





On Sep 12, 2:35 am, wrote:

You may get with drawal symptoms.
Lots of cover over here too. (UK)
Hypocrisy.
What about the millions of innocent people America has killed over the
last fifty years?
I have very little sympathy. You are responsible for the government
you voted in. 11-9 was a consequense of past US government policy.
I hope Americans have got the message.
It's not nice getting your cities bombed.
Many times more people got killed in Bush's subsequent wars.
And they have not been won or fixed the problem, they have made things
worse.
Still, what do you expect when you elect a retard as president?
Incredibly, there is an even bigger retard in the pipeline in the
shape of the Palin object.

In fact, the terrorists won, America has been brought to it's knees in
part due to the cost of the wars and security.

Folly Folly Folly.

Hating our government doesn't mean you need to show us (the people)
disrespect. That is within yourself and I'm thankful for most of your
country's folk who are our friends.
You say you come here for visits and have friends here...why do you
find it necessary to be so vile here?

Some folks live in their own self imposed and hateful world. They get up
every morning knowing that their twisted views trump those of 100's of
million of normal people. Hard to imagine that anyone can be an alqueida
sympathizer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't sympathise with them at all. But I can see why it all
happened. But you and other Americans are too stupid too see that
what goes around comes around.
America has completely f****d upthe middle east to the detrimentof
the world.

Americans live in Lalaland. They don't give a toss about the rest of
the world.They think they can just pillage it at will and with
impunity.
Well you have had a messge.

You can't.

Are you receiving?

As I said, there are some people who live in their own self imposed and
hateful world who know their views trump those of normal people. Have
someone read what you write to you. Maybe it will sink in?

You both have your views George.




Sure, but this is more than that. Normal folks see that everything has
good and bad. Some folks live in a self imposed bitter and hateful world
without that balance.

Harry posts in this group for only one reason. That is to let everyone
know how bitter and hateful he is because he has convinced himself there
is nothing good about the US.




Harry is often right. Our country is an imperialist power that has
done much good around the world but has also done many horrible things
to benefit the powerful - and that generates hatred. We may have
forgotten our previous interventions in Iraq and Iran, which were to
install dictatorships friendly to corporate interests, but the people
there haven't. They have every reason to hate us - we game them the
Shah and Saddam.

Now Libya, let's look at that. Why, Gadaffi promised not to go after
nuclear weapons and we then went in and overthrew him. Do you think
that maybe Iran might draw some conclusions from that?

And why Libya and not Syria, where they're killing protesters
constantly? Why, because Libya has oil. And don't think that it was an
uprising by the Libyan people. That isn't to say that Gadaffi was
universally loved by any means, but we orchestrated the uprising. Your
tax dollars (and mine) at work.

If you really want to know what your country is doing, read Killing
Hope by Blum. Very depressing reading but it should be required in our
schools. Good chance of that happening.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:33:15 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:10:32 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

As I said, there are some people who live in their own self imposed and
hateful world who know their views trump those of normal people. Have
someone read what you write to you. Maybe it will sink in?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hate comes from America. Only money is loved there by an elite
class that robs the poor and plunders the world.

The hate in that cold black heart of yours.

Try what George suggested. Let your wife Susan read what you right.

How is Susan doing?

Plunder -- I think they have found Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge.
How much loot will it have...

One great pirate, plundered and even killed British troops under
Andrew Jackson (Old Hickory).

Just so you know, Indians also killed British red coats in the same
battle.

Read Killing Hope by Blum. Just to let you know what our country does
out of the light of day. Concerning Harry, there is love and hate in
just about everyone's heart, but I suspect that you really don't like
the message that Harry is sending. Anything that rocks the image of
America as a shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy, Mom and Apple
Pie, tends to be unwelcome. The truth does hurt. That doesn't make me
less of an American. I love my country, I just don't want it operating
for the benefit of the already powerful and wealthy.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 11:20:37 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote

Again, you say that like you think it was a bad thing. All our service
members are volunteers. They joined up knowing the risk of death or
disability, much like a mountain climber or a race car driver. They wanted
the opportunity to kill people and blow things up. To them, the possible
rewards outweighed the risks.

Do you actually *know* any servicemen or women? My wife joined the Army in
1980 and she certainly didn't join to kill people and blow things up. The
reality is that her civil affairs unit *specializes* in rebuilding blown
apart countries (from tidal waves to wars) to help them back on the path
towards civilization.

I think you would be surprised to learn how very few of the hundreds of
thousands of volunteers in our military are the "kill and blow up" types.
In the Army the special operators are considered the "tip of the spear."
They get where they need to be and have what it takes to do the job because
of average Joes and Janes in combat support missions. I hate to burst your
pulp-fiction bubble, but they are not "born killers" but mostly young people
looking for steady employment or a way to pay for college, like my wife did
in 1980.

The "kill and blow up" folks do exist, but they are mostly special operators
who not only *want* to be in the thick of it, they've proved through the
most rigorous training on earth that they have a *right* and the will to be
there. The reality is that they are very, very few in number,
percentage-wise. I am thankful for both kinds of soldiers but for you to
keep lumping the two of them together is beyond ludicrous as I hope most
people with relatives in the military will tell you.

But what they're often fighting for is not for freedom for other
people. Once again folks, read Killing Hope by Blum if you want to
know why we are invovled all over the world.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

It's not possible to spend ten years there and not come to certain
conclusions about why people joined and what kind of people they are. One
of the first things that happened when I was assigned there was to have some
of my new USMC friends *insist* on helping me paint my ailing parents'
house, even though they barely knew me. That's just one reason why I find
the HeyBub's assertion so offensive. I would call the the "motivating
principle" of almost all the officers I came in contact with was a sense of
patriotism and a desire to help protect America.

By killing people and blowing things up. You are looking at the psych
and I am looking at the implementation. I really don't see the two as
being remotely mutually exclusive. And I don't find it at all hard to
believe that Marines and the rest of the US Military are multifaceted
individual. There are many reasons people join, but for the most part
they join with the knowledge that killing people (or helping others do
the same) is a big part of the job description.



I don't recall either you or HeyBub having a ten year stint at the Pentagon
under your belt, so I have to wonder where all your suppositions about what
makes soldiers tick come from. My wife attended a seemingless endless
series of courses at the various war colleges, the National Defense
University and lots of other places under the Army's Officer Education
System. That exposed her to many other soldiers from very different
backgrounds and with very different MOS's.

15 years as a psych RN, much of the time in VA hospitals. Volunteering
at the local USO outpost at the airport. As an aside, my high school
class of 150 included 1 Green Beret, 2 Recon Marines, and a Ranger.. all
of whom I kept in contact with.


(who always likes to count the number of deadly weapons within his reach in
a house or restaurant),
And if he is like one of my Marine buddies counts the salt shaker
among those weapons (g).



HeyBub made no distinction about "combat-related" billets.
Yeah and neither did you. That was sorta my point.

Sort of? It certainly didn't come across.
What part of my earlier post specifically talking about those who
come to infantry, calvary, engineers positions didn't come across?

HeyBub was pretty specific in
the wide net that his proclamation covered. I've been equally specific in
saying that not everyone who joins does so to kill and blow things up.
But everyone that does knows that is part of the job description and
a large part of what they do to fulfill the other things. It HAS to be a
major part of the decision process or they wouldn't go in the first
place. Especially over the last 10 years.

We
can airdrop and assemble a working, self-sufficient city anywhere in the
world in less than 72 hours. Do you think those are all kill-happy
warfighters assembling those forward bases or engineers, combat support
personnel, cooks, truck drivers, comm techs, medics, etc?

Now who is overblowing the statements being made. I think they
know (ESPECIALLY) at forward bases that doing those things is a big part
of what they might have to do. They are, after all, in the line of fire.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On Sep 14, 8:39*am, dgk wrote:

Concerning Harry, there is love and hate in
just about everyone's heart, but I suspect that you really don't like
the message that Harry is sending. Anything that rocks the image of
America as a shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy, Mom and Apple
Pie, tends to be unwelcome. The truth does hurt. That doesn't make me
less of an American. I love my country, I just don't want it operating
for the benefit of the already powerful and wealthy.

It's not the message, which has some validity, it's the donkey behind
the megaphone. Hee Haw could be trumpeting how evil plywood is and
he'd still be a donkey braying. That's unlikely as he doesn't have
anything at all to say about home improvement.

Hee Haw is not alone in his country's quest for a revisionist world.
http://mondediplo.com/2005/05/02empire
"Britain: imperial nostalgia
Britain not only conveniently still forgets the crimes of its imperial
past, but it has also again begun to romanticise its colonial
achievements and declare them a proper source of pride."

What's that old saying about stones and glass houses...?

R

On 9/14/2011 8:39 AM, dgk wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:33:15 -0700, wrote:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:10:32 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

As I said, there are some people who live in their own self imposed and
hateful world who know their views trump those of normal people. Have
someone read what you write to you. Maybe it will sink in?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hate comes from America. Only money is loved there by an elite
class that robs the poor and plunders the world.

The hate in that cold black heart of yours.

Try what George suggested. Let your wife Susan read what you right.

How is Susan doing?

Plunder -- I think they have found Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge.
How much loot will it have...

One great pirate, plundered and even killed British troops under
Andrew Jackson (Old Hickory).

Just so you know, Indians also killed British red coats in the same
battle.

Read Killing Hope by Blum. Just to let you know what our country does
out of the light of day. Concerning Harry, there is love and hate in
just about everyone's heart, but I suspect that you really don't like
the message that Harry is sending. Anything that rocks the image of

I think your conclusion is quite incorrect. Normal folks give and expect
reasoned criticism. There is nothing that Harry has every said that
would indicate any mix of love and hate you would expect from a normal
person.

Harry lives in his own little self imposed bitter and hateful world
where he knows there is absolutely nothing good about the US.


America as a shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy, Mom and Apple
Pie, tends to be unwelcome. The truth does hurt. That doesn't make me
less of an American. I love my country, I just don't want it operating
for the benefit of the already powerful and wealthy.

On Sep 14, 9:55*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Kurt Ullman" wrote in

*"Robert Green" wrote:

stuff snipped



If you want to compare what's in the heart of people you don't actually
know
with what's in the heart of a person (and her friends) I know quite well
then be my guest.

* *Heck, that is what you are doing outside of a very small sample of
people your wife (who by your admission was in a non-combat role) knew.
A skewed sample at that.

You seem to have glossed over my ten year stint at the Pentagon where I
worked with O5's and up, most of who had seen combat in Vietnam, the GW1,
Bosnia and even Somalia and Korea. *Quite a few of the bird colonels I
worked with are now one and two star generals.

It's not possible to spend ten years there and not come to certain
conclusions about why people joined and what kind of people they are. *One
of the first things that happened when I was assigned there was to have some
of my new USMC friends *insist* on helping me paint my ailing parents'
house, even though they barely knew me. *That's just one reason why I find
the HeyBub's assertion so offensive. *I would call the the "motivating
principle" of almost all the officers I came in contact with was a sense of
patriotism and a desire to help protect America.

Maybe the kids just signing up to "kill them damn moose-lims" after playing
10 years of FPS video games think it's all about killing and blowing up
thing. *Even then they represent the lowest rung on the military ladder..
Most become a hell of a lot more realistic about war when they realize
there's no cheat for eternal life and no reset button to start over when
you're killed. *That wisdom usually comes when they are trying to repack a
buddies bowels back into his body cavity or some other similarly horrific
task.

I don't recall either you or HeyBub having a ten year stint at the Pentagon
under your belt, so I have to wonder where all your suppositions about what
makes soldiers tick come from. *My wife attended a seemingless endless
series of courses at the various war colleges, the National Defense
University and lots of other places under the Army's Officer Education
System. *That exposed her to many other soldiers from very different
backgrounds and with very different MOS's.

Overall, I'll agree that Civil Affairs Unit members have mostly other CAU
members as close friends, but that's not to the point of excluding all other
specialties. *Of her friends that I know well, one is a special operator
(who always likes to count the number of deadly weapons within his reach in
a house or restaurant), another a JAG officer and a third a range safety
officer. *Another good friend, a fellow civil affairs unit member died after
being stop-lossed, ending up blown to shreds by an IED on a "presence
mission" which translates into "drive around until you get shot or
exploded."

HeyBub made no distinction about "combat-related" billets.
* *Yeah and neither did you. That was sorta my point.

Sort of? * It certainly didn't come across. *HeyBub was pretty specific in
the wide net that his proclamation covered. *I've been equally specific in
saying that *not everyone who joins does so to kill and blow things up. *We
can airdrop and assemble a working, self-sufficient city anywhere in the
world in less than 72 hours. *Do you think those are all kill-happy
warfighters assembling those forward bases or engineers, combat support
personnel, cooks, truck drivers, comm techs, medics, etc?

--
Bobby G.

In the British Army, everyone is trained to use weapons. Even the
cooks and carpenters. I expect it's the same in Ameriaca.

On Sep 14, 12:02*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message news:Ld2dnfnOjq-

Iraq cost you close to $1 trillion dollars. *What did you get for
spending that treasure?

Aside from satisfaction?

Do you get much satisfaction at having to withdraw from AfRaq after
10 years of war with very little to show for it? *I don't because I
know it's one of the reasons we're deep in debt and will be for a
very long time.

Admittedly, some of the positive results are intangible. For example,
there's probably not a military commander, from sergeant to three-star, who
hasn't led men in combat. You don't get that kind of experience at the
bottom of a CrackerJacks box.

I think having to pull out after 10 years with the
enemy still quite active in Kabul and Baghdad just makes us look we.

After 250 years we still have burglars and armed robbers right here in River
City. We can't get them all, but we can reduce their impact to what John
Kerry called "a nusiance factor."

When the magic war fairy shows up to pick up the tab I'll be somewhat
satisfied, but basically, we mortgaged ourselves up to our eyeballs
going after a country that had very little, if anything, to do with
9/11. *Those terrorists were almost to a man Saudi Arabian, one of
our "dearest" allies.

Yep. There was a miscalculation at the get-go. Some felt that with the
roaring economy, we could afford the wars. What was left out of the formula
was the possibility that Democrats would take over the Congress and/or the
presidency.

I'm with you on Saudi Arabia. I think we should declare their oil fields a
"World Resource," step in, by threats of force, and administer the petroleum
extraction in a fair, equitable, and cheap manner.

You really are a thickwit aren't you? Any attempt by America to invade
SA (centre of the muslim world) would result in a deluge of
"terrorist attacks"
And you can't even cope with one.

On Sep 14, 1:36*pm, dgk wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:10:44 -0400, George
wrote:





On 9/13/2011 9:18 AM, dgk wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:24:31 -0400,
wrote:

On 9/13/2011 2:10 AM, harry wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:05 pm, * wrote:
On 9/12/2011 7:47 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:

On Sep 12, 2:35 am, * * wrote:

You may get with drawal symptoms.
Lots of cover over here too. *(UK)
Hypocrisy.
What about the millions of innocent people America has killed over the
last fifty years?
I have very little sympathy. You are responsible for the government
you voted in. 11-9 was a consequense of past US government policy..
I hope Americans have got the message.
It's not nice getting your cities bombed.
Many times more people got killed in Bush's subsequent wars.
And they have not been won or fixed the problem, they have made things
worse.
Still, what do you expect when you elect a retard as president?
Incredibly, there is an even bigger retard in the pipeline in the
shape of the Palin object.

In fact, the terrorists won, America has been brought to it's knees in
part due to the cost of the wars and security.

Folly Folly Folly.

Hating our government doesn't mean you need to show us (the people)
disrespect. *That is within yourself and I'm thankful for most of your
country's folk who are our friends.
You say you come here for visits and have friends here...why do you
find it necessary to be so vile here?

Some folks live in their own self imposed and hateful world. They get up
every morning knowing that their twisted views trump those of 100's of
million of normal people. Hard to imagine that anyone can be an alqueida
sympathizer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't sympathise with them at all. *But I can see why it all
happened. *But you and other Americans are too stupid too see that
what goes around comes around.
* *America has completely f****d upthe middle east to the detrimentof
the world.

Americans live in Lalaland. They don't give a toss about the rest of
the world.They think they can just pillage it at will and with
impunity.
Well you have had a messge.

You can't.

Are you receiving?

As I said, there are some people who live in their own self imposed and
hateful world who know their views trump those of normal people. Have
someone read what you write to you. Maybe it will sink in?

You both have your views George.

Sure, but this is more than that. Normal folks see that everything has
good and bad. Some folks live in a self imposed bitter and hateful world
without that balance.

Harry posts in this group for only one reason. That is to let everyone
know how bitter and hateful he is because he has convinced himself there
is nothing good about the US.

Harry is often right. Our country is an imperialist power that has
done much good around the world but has also done many horrible things
to benefit the powerful - and that generates hatred. We may have
forgotten our previous interventions in Iraq and Iran, which were to
install dictatorships friendly to corporate interests, but the people
there haven't. They have every reason to hate us - we game them the
Shah and Saddam.

Now Libya, let's look at that. Why, Gadaffi promised not to go after
nuclear weapons and we then went in and overthrew him. Do you think
that maybe Iran might draw some conclusions from that?

And why Libya and not Syria, where they're killing protesters
constantly? Why, because Libya has oil. And don't think that it was an
uprising by the Libyan people. That isn't to say that Gadaffi was
universally loved by any means, but we orchestrated the uprising. Your
tax dollars (and mine) at work.

If you really want to know what your country is doing, read Killing
Hope by Blum. Very depressing reading but it should be required in our
schools. Good chance of that happening.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't hate Americans, just their government.
It get's even worse.
Negotiations are to start (may even have started) With the Taliban to
hand the country (Afghanistan) back.

So we are right back at square one. Except of course for all the blood
and treasure expended.

And the fact that previously the Taliban thought they could beat
America. Now they KNOW it.

On Sep 14, 1:39*pm, dgk wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:33:15 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:10:32 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

As I said, there are some people who live in their own self imposed and
hateful world who know their views trump those of normal people. Have
someone read what you write to you. Maybe it will sink in?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hate comes from America. *Only money is loved there by an elite
class that robs the poor and plunders the world.

The hate in that cold black heart of yours.

Try what George suggested. *Let your wife Susan read what you right.

How is Susan doing?

Plunder -- *I think they have found Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge.
How much loot will it have...

One great pirate, plundered and even killed British troops under
Andrew Jackson (Old Hickory).

Just so you know, Indians also killed British red coats in the same
battle.

Read Killing Hope by Blum. Just to let you know what our country does
out of the light of day. Concerning Harry, there is love and hate in
just about everyone's heart, but I suspect that you really don't like
the message that Harry is sending. Anything that rocks the image of
America as a shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy, Mom and Apple
Pie, tends to be unwelcome. The truth does hurt. That doesn't make me
less of an American. I love my country, I just don't want it operating
for the benefit of the already powerful and wealthy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said. These things need to be faced up to.
The UK's part in this has hardly been a shining example either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box

There will be no "Arab Spring" either.Just more religious nuts in
charge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_...Fighting_Group

On Sep 14, 2:54*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:39*am, dgk wrote:



Concerning Harry, there is love and hate in
just about everyone's heart, but I suspect that you really don't like
the message that Harry is sending. Anything that rocks the image of
America as a shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy, Mom and Apple
Pie, tends to be unwelcome. The truth does hurt. That doesn't make me
less of an American. I love my country, I just don't want it operating
for the benefit of the already powerful and wealthy.

It's not the message, which has some validity, it's the donkey behind
the megaphone. *Hee Haw could be trumpeting how evil plywood is and
he'd still be a donkey braying. *That's unlikely as he doesn't have
anything at all to say about home improvement.

Hee Haw is not alone in his country's quest for a revisionist world.http://mondediplo.com/2005/05/02empire
"Britain: imperial nostalgia
Britain not only conveniently still forgets the crimes of its imperial
past, but it has also again begun to romanticise its colonial
achievements and declare them a proper source of pride."

What's that old saying about stones and glass houses...?

R

But we have learned. You have not.

On Sep 14, 12:45*pm, harry wrote:


What's that old saying about stones and glass houses...?

R

But we have learned. You have not.

I can't help feeling in my depths...that if the British had won the
RW...we might be one giant Canada.
And a whole lot better off at this point!
Canada is my 2nd favorite country anyway!

On 9/14/2011 9:54 AM, RicodJour wrote:
(snip)
Hee Haw is not alone in his country's quest for a revisionist world.
http://mondediplo.com/2005/05/02empire
"Britain: imperial nostalgia
Britain not only conveniently still forgets the crimes of its imperial
past, but it has also again begun to romanticise its colonial
achievements and declare them a proper source of pride."

What's that old saying about stones and glass houses...?

R

From what I hear, Russia is also experiencing nostalgia for their lost
empire. Their former client states mostly do not agree.

--
aem sends...

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:39:42 -0400, dgk wrote:

Concerning Harry, there is love and hate in
just about everyone's heart, but I suspect that you really don't like
the message that Harry is sending. Anything that rocks the image of
America as a shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy, Mom and Apple
Pie, tends to be unwelcome. The truth does hurt. That doesn't make me
less of an American. I love my country, I just don't want it operating
for the benefit of the already powerful and wealthy.

Your are off about suspicion that his message bothers me. It is his
constant broken record. The same old song and dance.

I spent most of my working life in government: City, State, Federal
and Military. I know exactly how screwed up government can be.

If Hee Haw isn't complaining about the government, he is bitching
about guns and other subjects.

Hee Haw purports himself to be a superior thinker and knows what's
best for the world.

I love my country too. I did not burn my Draft Card or run off to
Canada, just because I disagreed with the government polices.

harry wrote:

I'm with you on Saudi Arabia. I think we should declare their oil
fields a "World Resource," step in, by threats of force, and
administer the petroleum extraction in a fair, equitable, and cheap
manner.

You really are a thickwit aren't you? Any attempt by America to invade
SA (centre of the muslim world) would result in a deluge of
"terrorist attacks"
And you can't even cope with one.

We could always turn the Kabala in Mecca into Kabalatite.

"dgk" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Harry is often right. Our country is an imperialist power that has
done much good around the world but has also done many horrible things
to benefit the powerful - and that generates hatred. We may have
forgotten our previous interventions in Iraq and Iran, which were to
install dictatorships friendly to corporate interests, but the people
there haven't. They have every reason to hate us - we game them the
Shah and Saddam.

America's addiction to oil has made us get in bed with many very vile and
nasty people and some of them have even done us dirty like 9/11.

Now Libya, let's look at that. Why, Gadaffi promised not to go after
nuclear weapons and we then went in and overthrew him. Do you think
that maybe Iran might draw some conclusions from that?

Are you mad? (-: Expecting a consistent tone from the State Department?

And why Libya and not Syria, where they're killing protesters
constantly? Why, because Libya has oil. And don't think that it was an
uprising by the Libyan people. That isn't to say that Gadaffi was
universally loved by any means, but we orchestrated the uprising. Your
tax dollars (and mine) at work.

I figure after we gave the intelligence agencies close to a trillion dollars
and free reign, and *especially* after they were excoriated for their lack
of human intelligence, we're largely seeing the CIA's handiwork in the
Libyan uprising.

Once upon time I knew many Libyans when they were our friends and I was
helping to build flight simulators to sell to them. I suspect that what's
going to replace Mommar the madman isn't going to be any better than he was,
and probably quite a bit worse. I don't think the US will *ever* realize
that many of these countries are ruled by so-called "strongmen" for a
reason: that's what it takes to keep those countries functioning.

If you really want to know what your country is doing, read Killing
Hope by Blum. Very depressing reading but it should be required in our
schools. Good chance of that happening.

Especially if they follow Texas-style textbook selection rules:

http://trueslant.com/michaelpreston/...can-consensus/

In the last few years, pollsters and political researchers have begun to
document a fundamental shift in the way Americans are thinking about the
news. No longer are we merely holding opinions different from one another;
we're also holding different facts. Increasingly, our arguments aren't over
what we should be doing - in the Iraq War, in the war on terrorism, on
global warming, or about any number of controversial subjects- but, instead,
over what is happening. Political scientists have characterized our epoch as
one of heightened polarization; now, as I'll document, the creeping
partisanship has began to distort our very perceptions about what is "real"
and what isn't. Indeed, you can go so far as to say we're now fighting over
competing versions of reality. And it is more convenient than ever before
for some of us to live in a world built of our own facts.

http://www.amazon.com/True-Enough-Le.../dp/0470050101

"True Enough" is filled with this sort of fascinating and illuminating
detail. Political partisans probably ought to know that Farhad's results
favor the left side of the aisle. Republicans, he shows, are more likely
than Democrats to limit their media intake to sources they already agree
with, a phenomenon called selective exposure. And Reps are more likely to
see a story as interesting (even when not related to politics!) when branded
with a logo of their favorite conservative media outlet.

--
Bobby G.

"Bob_Villa" wrote in message
news:9fef2c04-de37-4058-83eb-

stuff snipped

Canada is my 2nd favorite country anyway!

I heard a comedian say his second favorite singer was Michael Jackson. When
asked who his first favorite singer was, he replied "Everybody else!"

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

"dgk" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Harry is often right. Our country is an imperialist power that has
done much good around the world but has also done many horrible things
to benefit the powerful - and that generates hatred. We may have
forgotten our previous interventions in Iraq and Iran, which were to
install dictatorships friendly to corporate interests, but the people
there haven't. They have every reason to hate us - we game them the
Shah and Saddam.

America's addiction to oil has made us get in bed with many very vile and
nasty people and some of them have even done us dirty like 9/11.

Largely because the politicans and others have closed off access to so
much of our resources. Of course, we have been getting into bed with
nasty people from the Revolution forward (and I am not even counting
Lafayette and the French in this category--grin).


Now Libya, let's look at that. Why, Gadaffi promised not to go after
nuclear weapons and we then went in and overthrew him. Do you think
that maybe Iran might draw some conclusions from that?

Are you mad? (-: Expecting a consistent tone from the State Department?
What WE did in the Libya hardly qualified as going in and
overthrowing him. A couple of bombings and then essentially serving as
advisor and delivery boy to NATO doesn't really reach that level. If
anything, I would expect Iran to take comfort in that rather wimpy
response overall.


And why Libya and not Syria, where they're killing protesters
constantly? Why, because Libya has oil. And don't think that it was an
uprising by the Libyan people. That isn't to say that Gadaffi was
universally loved by any means, but we orchestrated the uprising. Your
tax dollars (and mine) at work.

I figure after we gave the intelligence agencies close to a trillion dollars
and free reign, and *especially* after they were excoriated for their lack
of human intelligence, we're largely seeing the CIA's handiwork in the
Libyan uprising.

I think that is more along the lines of taking on the easier target.
You will note that the West really did not join the battle until it
became evident that it had some momentum and staying power. Syria hasn't
reached that topping point yet (and may never).
The CIA can thank Frank Church for most of their troubles.

Once upon time I knew many Libyans when they were our friends and I was
helping to build flight simulators to sell to them. I suspect that what's
going to replace Mommar the madman isn't going to be any better than he was,
and probably quite a bit worse. I don't think the US will *ever* realize
that many of these countries are ruled by so-called "strongmen" for a
reason: that's what it takes to keep those countries functioning.
But at least in Libya, I would posit that much (if not most) of the
strong man part had been taken out. What the West largely did was come
to the aid of who we perceived to be the eventual winner. West might
have speeded up the process by a bit, but I don't think it was by any
means incisive. And we got to suck up to the winner.
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Pete Townsend got it
right all those years ago.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:45:08 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Sep 14, 2:54*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:39*am, dgk wrote:



Concerning Harry, there is love and hate in
just about everyone's heart, but I suspect that you really don't like
the message that Harry is sending. Anything that rocks the image of
America as a shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy, Mom and Apple
Pie, tends to be unwelcome. The truth does hurt. That doesn't make me
less of an American. I love my country, I just don't want it operating
for the benefit of the already powerful and wealthy.

It's not the message, which has some validity, it's the donkey behind
the megaphone. *Hee Haw could be trumpeting how evil plywood is and
he'd still be a donkey braying. *That's unlikely as he doesn't have
anything at all to say about home improvement.

Hee Haw is not alone in his country's quest for a revisionist world.http://mondediplo.com/2005/05/02empire
"Britain: imperial nostalgia
Britain not only conveniently still forgets the crimes of its imperial
past, but it has also again begun to romanticise its colonial
achievements and declare them a proper source of pride."

What's that old saying about stones and glass houses...?

R

But we have learned. You have not.

No Harry, some of you, like some of us, have learned. And, like us,
you really have no ability to change the true power behind the
government.

Robert Green wrote:
"Bob_Villa" wrote in message
news:9fef2c04-de37-4058-83eb-

stuff snipped

Canada is my 2nd favorite country anyway!

I heard a comedian say his second favorite singer was Michael
Jackson. When asked who his first favorite singer was, he replied
"Everybody else!"

Michael Jackson could be an example to us all.

Where else could a poor black kid grow up to be a rich white man and marry
Elvis Presley's daughter?

Is this a great country, or what?

While dating Macaulay Culkin on the side.....

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
...


I heard a comedian say his second favorite singer was
Michael
Jackson. When asked who his first favorite singer was, he
replied
"Everybody else!"

Michael Jackson could be an example to us all.

Where else could a poor black kid grow up to be a rich white
man and marry
Elvis Presley's daughter?

Is this a great country, or what?

On Sep 15, 8:37*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
"Bob_Villa" wrote in message
news:9fef2c04-de37-4058-83eb-

stuff snipped

Canada is my 2nd favorite country anyway!

I heard a comedian say his second favorite singer was Michael
Jackson. *When asked who his first favorite singer was, he replied
"Everybody else!"

Michael Jackson could be an example to us all.

Where else could a poor black kid grow up to be a rich white man and marry
Elvis Presley's daughter?

Is this a great country, or what?

Heading for the next cock-up. Planning on vetoing Palaestine's
application for statehood. You can see why Arabs just love you.
Why don'tyou mind your own business?

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
"Robert Green" wrote:

stuff snipped

America's addiction to oil has made us get in bed with many very vile
and
nasty people and some of them have even done us dirty like 9/11.

Largely because the politicans and others have closed off access to so
much of our resources. Of course, we have been getting into bed with
nasty people from the Revolution forward (and I am not even counting
Lafayette and the French in this category--grin).

Disagree, strongly, about the "we've closed off" stuff.

If we had millions of barrels of cheap domestic oil we would still be
driving around with 429ci engines like my old Ford LTD 7mpg ex-trooper car.
Why? Because guys (and some gals) like to feel the whoosh of incredible
acceleration. Do they really need all that power? No, or very, very rarely
unless they are for some reason pursuing speeders. Electric cars, they say,
bring back quite a bit of the whoosh with far greater efficiency and that's
good.

The scarcity of oil from time to time has also been a very good thing. The
greenies got it right for the wrong reason. (I could or should write a book
about the many times we got things right - eventually - but it was an
accidental result. But I'm too busy writing "HeyBub's History of America."
It's really a composite of all the things I've read here posted as flat out
fact that were just a little skewed. The internet is a little bit like
sitting in 100 bars across the country at the same time.)

Not touching our reserves has forced us to become more efficient. The more
efficient we are, the more the economic gods are pleased. I look at our
untouched reserves as CRUCIAL to the survival of our nation in a prolonged
conflict.

Everyone seems to believe that just like the crash of 1929 wouldn't ever
happen again, neither could a world war. But I think it's coming and that's
when lack of energy self-sufficiency could easily mean that this nation
might perish from the earth. Protestations to the contrary, England had
relatively little to do with winning WWII. It was lack of oil stopped
Hitler. It was for want of oil that Japan went to war.

Our reserves are like the emergency cash every woman I've ever dated has
squirreled away. Every once in a while, it's a real life-saver. When we
woke up China, we woke up some very hungry mouths to feed. Those reserves
are "cash in the bank" as far as I am concerned.

The greenies might want to save the pristine views and polar bears. I want
to save the *country* if we ever find ourselves dependent on just what WE
have within our own borders. Supertankers make super targets and they'd be
cleared from the oceans in just a few days if things got really bad. That
would starve us for oil.

--
Bobby G.

"dgk" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Read Killing Hope by Blum. Just to let you know what our country does
out of the light of day.

I heard a thought-provoking quote the other day: "History is what white men
did in the light of day." It was part of a lecture about how inaccurate
and incomplete history can be because of a number of very different reasons.
I found it interesting as an ex-journalist because they talked about how
dependent history is upon journalists and prolific letter writers. I guess
you're going to force us to read that book. (-: This is the only
newsgroup I'm in that has a homework requirement!

China is now doing all the "evil" things that we did when we were the
manufacturing center of the world. Securing raw materials (they're getting
the Iraq oil our troops died for), markets, sea lanes, the right to
participate in space, expanding their navy (tremendously). So have nations
done since the time of the Pharohs and will probably always do.

--
Bobby G.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:36:21 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:39:42 -0400, dgk wrote:

Concerning Harry, there is love and hate in
just about everyone's heart, but I suspect that you really don't like
the message that Harry is sending. Anything that rocks the image of
America as a shining beacon of Freedom and Democracy, Mom and Apple
Pie, tends to be unwelcome. The truth does hurt. That doesn't make me
less of an American. I love my country, I just don't want it operating
for the benefit of the already powerful and wealthy.

Your are off about suspicion that his message bothers me. It is his
constant broken record. The same old song and dance.

Yep. That's what "block sender" is for. I like Harry. He seems to be an
interesting guy with interesting experiences. But the "American is crap"
diatribes finally made me send him to the cornfield (for all you Twilight
Zone fans). Life is much, much better only seeing echoes of his "What
America Did Wrong This Week" messages in those still crazy enough to engage
him.

I spent most of my working life in government: City, State, Federal
and Military. I know exactly how screwed up government can be.

I spent my life working in both public and private sector and believe me,
governments have no lock on doing screwy things. HP bought Compaq and now
wants to puke it back up. Everyone said it was stupid at the time and
Compaq employees ended up with a morale so low an ant couldn't limbo under
it.

Remember how we were promised how deregulating power would result in much
lower electricity prices? Mine have quadrupled since I moved here. Looking
at the craftsmen who do work for me now compared to the guys I watched build
my parent's house in the 60's makes me realize how much has been lost in
terms of pride in workmanship and the work itself.

Hee Haw purports himself to be a superior thinker and knows what's
best for the world.

Geez, you could apply that description to half the people here. It's just
that his bitches are one note songs about the Evil Empires'R'US.

I love my country too. I did not burn my Draft Card or run off to
Canada, just because I disagreed with the government polices.

Hell, I went so far as to get my exam at Ft. Holabird, drawing 93 in a
lottery that ended at 95. As I stood there, the doctor called over his
associate to point at my feet. "These are the flattest feet I've ever
seen!" That was the end of my military career, although I ended up at DoD
as a civilian where I met my wide, who ironically has freakishly high foot
arches. Between the two of us we have two normal pairs of feet.

However, I do retain a healthy skepticism about whether government at all
levels makes the right choice often enough. States were happy to collect
fees for house sales along with every other hand in the real estate chain.
They were just as complicit in the real estate debacle as everyone else. I
*really* disagree with spending my tax dollars to bring alleged democracy to
Muslims. Let Allah do it. I fear, however, that recent events like the
destruction of the Israeli Embassy in Egypt are going to light up a new war.

When we leave, they're going to reshuffle the deck with IEDs anyway.
There's been peace because we picked a faction and backed it. When our
backing disappears, there will be only pieces left of those who helped us.
The factions who were under our thumb will be very eager for payback and
will slaughter our translators, intermediaries and anyone who once helped
us. We've seen it in every damn war we've gotten ourselves into since
Vietnam. It's virtually a guarantee we'll see it again.

Robert, please don't try making sense. This is usenet. And I got a
high lottery number and didn't have to head for Canada but I surely
would have if necessary. I would not fight in a war that I did not
agree with. Worse, I thought that it was completely immoral.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 00:53:43 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On Sep 15, 8:37*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
"Bob_Villa" wrote in message
news:9fef2c04-de37-4058-83eb-

stuff snipped

Canada is my 2nd favorite country anyway!

I heard a comedian say his second favorite singer was Michael
Jackson. *When asked who his first favorite singer was, he replied
"Everybody else!"

Michael Jackson could be an example to us all.

Where else could a poor black kid grow up to be a rich white man and marry
Elvis Presley's daughter?

Is this a great country, or what?

Heading for the next cock-up. Planning on vetoing Palaestine's
application for statehood. You can see why Arabs just love you.
Why don'tyou mind your own business?

Why don't you, harry?

"dgk" wrote in message
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:36:21 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"Oren" wrote in message
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:39:42 -0400, dgk wrote:

stuff snipped

However, I do retain a healthy skepticism about whether government at all
levels makes the right choice often enough. States were happy to collect
fees for house sales along with every other hand in the real estate
chain.
They were just as complicit in the real estate debacle as everyone else.
I
*really* disagree with spending my tax dollars to bring alleged democracy
to
Muslims. Let Allah do it. I fear, however, that recent events like the
destruction of the Israeli Embassy in Egypt are going to light up a new
war.

When we leave, they're going to reshuffle the deck with IEDs anyway.
There's been peace because we picked a faction and backed it. When our
backing disappears, there will be only pieces left of those who helped
us.
The factions who were under our thumb will be very eager for payback and
will slaughter our translators, intermediaries and anyone who once helped
us. We've seen it in every damn war we've gotten ourselves into since
Vietnam. It's virtually a guarantee we'll see it again.

Robert, please don't try making sense.

I hardly ever do, at least according to some of my friends here. (-:

This is usenet. And I got a high lottery number and didn't have to head
for
Canada but I surely would have if necessary. I would not fight in a war
that
I did not agree with. Worse, I thought that it was completely immoral.

Well, I'm glad my ultra-flat feet made that decision for me. I didn't agree
with that war or with these wars and I'm sorry that the draft was "shelved"
because I believe if it still existed, we would have left AfRaq a long, long
time ago. With a draft, perhaps we wouldn't even have started either war. I
guess I grew up to think Americans never threw the first punch, but they
always punched back if hit first and punched hard enough to settle the
matter.

I think the powers that be perverted those sort of American attitudes when
we punched Afghanistan and Iraq for something that 18 Saudi terrorists did
to us. The problem was the Saudis were our "friends du jour" so we couldn't
attack them or even ask them to pay reparations. I think they should have
paid us at least $10B to make up for what their citizens did on 9/11.

--
Bobby G.

*CARON, WAYNE MAURICE Rank and organization: Hospital Corpsman Third Class,
U.S. Navy, Headquarters and Service Company, 3d Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st
Marine Division (Rein), FMF. Place and date: Quang Nam Province, Republic of
Vietnam, 28 July 1968. Born: 2 November 1946, Middleboro, Mass. Caron
started to make his way to yet another injured comrade, when he was again
struck by enemy small-arms fire. Courageously and with unbelievable
determination, HC3c. Caron continued his attempt to reach the third marine
until he was killed by an enemy rocket round.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
harry wrote:

I'm with you on Saudi Arabia. I think we should declare their oil
fields a "World Resource," step in, by threats of force, and
administer the petroleum extraction in a fair, equitable, and cheap
manner.

You really are a thickwit aren't you? Any attempt by America to invade
SA (centre of the muslim world) would result in a deluge of
"terrorist attacks"
And you can't even cope with one.

We could always turn the Kabala in Mecca into Kabalatite.

I think it's called the Kaaba, the Black Stone of Mecca. Kabbalah is the
numerically obsessed religion that Madonna (no, not the mother of Jesus, the
singer!) practices. I think you meant turning the Black Stone into a
Shiskaabab. (-:

http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html

Kaaba means cube.

--
Bobby G.

*CARTER, BRUCE W. Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Marine
Corps, Company H, 2d Battalion, 3d Marines, 3d Marine Division (Rein), FMF.
Place and date: Quang Tri Province, Republic of Vietnam, 7 August 1969.
Born: 7 May 1950, Schenectady, N.Y. He observed a hostile grenade land
between him and his companions. Fully aware of the probable consequences of
his action but determined to protect the men following him, he
unhesitatingly threw himself over the grenade, absorbing the full effects of
its detonation with his body.

On Sep 13, 5:07*pm, "
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:43:07 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Sep 13, 4:14*pm, "
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 08:11:55 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 23:15:07 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Or even the *two million indians you killed.

You spit this out all the time without giving a source. The same old
song and dance from you harry. In fact, you don't know how many
Indians the British or the French killed.

How about the number of Indians (the other ones) the British killed.

There was no such place as India. *We created it.

Outta what? *what a maroon!

How is it that the real culpritsof 9-11 were allowed to go free, ie
the Saudis?

Idiot.

Answer, they were already in your pocket. Iraq was all about oil.
Nothing about freedom or democracy.

http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html

Total.

Everybody remembers the name that was first given to the assault on
Iraq: ""Operation Iraqui Liberation"". Somebody in the Administration
who wasn't fast asleep noticed what the first letters spelled: OIL.
So the name of the operation was quickly changed to ""Operation Iraqui
Freedom.""

QED

HB

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:44:29 -0700 (PDT), Higgs Boson
wrote:

On Sep 13, 5:07*pm, "
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:43:07 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Sep 13, 4:14*pm, "
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 08:11:55 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 23:15:07 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Or even the *two million indians you killed.

You spit this out all the time without giving a source. The same old
song and dance from you harry. In fact, you don't know how many
Indians the British or the French killed.

How about the number of Indians (the other ones) the British killed.

There was no such place as India. *We created it.

Outta what? *what a maroon!

How is it that the real culpritsof 9-11 were allowed to go free, ie
the Saudis?

Idiot.

Answer, they were already in your pocket. Iraq was all about oil.
Nothing about freedom or democracy.

http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html

Total.

Everybody remembers the name that was first given to the assault on
Iraq: ""Operation Iraqui Liberation"". Somebody in the Administration
who wasn't fast asleep noticed what the first letters spelled: OIL.
So the name of the operation was quickly changed to ""Operation Iraqui
Freedom.""

QED

You're as dumb as harry. No surprise to anyone, though.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:22:52 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Well, I'm glad my ultra-flat feet made that decision for me.

That's a good thing. Many suffer angst about VN service.
I never was forced to make the decision, because I joined the Navy
shortly before JFK was killed, and was sworn in the day after my 17th
birthday in Jan, '64.
The reason I went in the Navy was romanticism about the sea from my
reading, the normal patriotism, and that 2 friends went in at the
same time. Without the desire to walk in the footsteps of my friends
I would have joined the Marines.
Though I disagree with Heybub's premise about joining up in current
times to blow things up, I admit I fit that bill.
In late '65 or early '66, when I was about 19, there was a call for
volunteers roster for VN Swift boat duty making the rounds on my ship.
I volunteered, and distinctly remember thinking 2 things.
1. Action! Machine guns!
Chasing Soviet subs in the Atlantic and Med was pretty boring.
2. Hazardous duty pay.
Of course they didn't take me. They don't need a boilerman on a Swift
boat. Needs of the Navy.

I didn't agree
with that war or with these wars and I'm sorry that the draft was "shelved"
because I believe if it still existed, we would have left AfRaq a long, long
time ago. With a draft, perhaps we wouldn't even have started either war. I
guess I grew up to think Americans never threw the first punch, but they
always punched back if hit first and punched hard enough to settle the
matter.


I agree about the draft. Iraq would have been impossible.
But a draft is impossible after "womens lib" without "total war."
You'd have to draft women.
Hard enough for parents let their sons be drafted.
But I've never changed my stance that Viet Nam was necessary for the
time. It wasn't managed right, and it was tragic.
Global communism was a real threat then, and the Domino Theory was
solid enough. Nobody will ever prove that fighting in VN didn't stop
the dominos.
This Arab spring is a very good example of how dominos topple.
I'll always honor those who served in VN.
No sense going into the revisionism draft-dodgers and peaceniks use to
justify their behavior during VN. They might be right.
Back to Heybub's idea of "Why We Fight," it hard to say why somebody
is in the military.
After my 4 years in the '60's I joined the reserves for another 2
years in the mid-70's. Just for the money. But I still knew my duty
My son-in-law joined the Army because it was the only job he could
find.
But as late as the Iran hostage crisis, when I was 32 or so, I wanted
to paratroop into Iran and blow things up.
My thinking matured slowly, accelerating when I began seeing my own
kids as potential cannon fodder for cowardly politicians.
Now my finger is very, very slow to itch.

--Vic

On Sep 16, 9:31*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

...

harry wrote:

[...]

We could always turn the Kabala in Mecca into Kabalatite.

I think it's called the Kaaba, the Black Stone of Mecca. *Kabbalah is the
numerically obsessed religion that Madonna (no, not the mother of Jesus, the
singer!) practices. *I think you meant turning the Black Stone into a
Shiskaabab. (-:

http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html

Kaaba means cube.

Madonna and her ilk patronize a Los Angeles Kabbalah center run by
someone named, ISTR, "Berg". It is a lucrative commercial operation
that, alas, debauches the actual meaning of Kabbalah. Traditionally,
Kabbalah could/should not be studied until a married man had attained
the age of 40. (In those days women didn't study). It is a
legitimate mystical movement that, like other such movements, attracts
people who are attracted by mysticism. (Circular reasoning).

[...]

HB

On Sep 13, 6:18*am, dgk wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:24:31 -0400, George
wrote:









On 9/13/2011 2:10 AM, harry wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:05 pm, *wrote:
On 9/12/2011 7:47 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:

On Sep 12, 2:35 am, * *wrote:

You may get with drawal symptoms.
Lots of cover over here too. *(UK)
Hypocrisy.
What about the millions of innocent people America has killed over the
last fifty years?
I have very little sympathy. You are responsible for the government
you voted in. 11-9 was a consequense of past US government policy.
I hope Americans have got the message.
It's not nice getting your cities bombed.
Many times more people got killed in Bush's subsequent wars.
And they have not been won or fixed the problem, they have made things
worse.
Still, what do you expect when you elect a retard as president?
Incredibly, there is an even bigger retard in the pipeline in the
shape of the Palin object.

In fact, the terrorists won, America has been brought to it's knees in
part due to the cost of the wars and security.

Folly Folly Folly.

Hating our government doesn't mean you need to show us (the people)
disrespect. *That is within yourself and I'm thankful for most of your
country's folk who are our friends.
You say you come here for visits and have friends here...why do you
find it necessary to be so vile here?

Some folks live in their own self imposed and hateful world. They get up
every morning knowing that their twisted views trump those of 100's of
million of normal people. Hard to imagine that anyone can be an alqueida
sympathizer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't sympathise with them at all. *But I can see why it all
happened. *But you and other Americans are too stupid too see that
what goes around comes around.
* America has completely f****d upthe middle east to the detrimentof
the world.

Americans live in Lalaland. They don't give a toss about the rest of
the world.They think they can just pillage it at will and with
impunity.
Well you have had a messge.

You can't.

Are you receiving?

As I said, there are some people who live in their own self imposed and
hateful world who know their views trump those of normal people. Have
someone read what you write to you. Maybe it will sink in?

You both have your views George. I'm American but I tend to agree with
Harry. I grew up during Vietnam, trying to understand why my country
was fighting against the clear will of the Vietnamese people. Our
country, born in revolution against colonial (and corporate) control,
was fighting for the colonial powers.

[...deleting valuable material, with respect...]

The BEST summary of - why Vietnam - was written back in 1967 by the
late, great, foreign correspondent Bernard Fall: "Last Reflections on
a War". The book breaks off abruptly when Fall is killed.

In the War Remnants Museum in Saigon, I saw the words of a senior
American official, explaining that we cannot afford to let them take
over their own country because we need the tungsten and tin, among
other strategic elements. Will try to find his name.

We should never forget those shameful pictures of the choppers lifting
off the American Embassy in Saigon (?) with desperate locals clinging
to the chopper --
terrified of the bloody retaliation forthcoming from the Viet Cong --
which came into being largely because we never understood why we were
there.

99-44/100 of people, not just sheeple, haven't a clue about who Ho Chi
Minh was, and why Vietnam so badly wanted independence from the last
in its succession of masters, going back to China, which ran it for a
thousand years.

"Those who do not study history are doomed to relive it". Santayana

And we are doing just that.

HB

On 9/16/2011 3:53 AM, harry wrote:
On Sep 15, 8:37 pm, wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
news:9fef2c04-de37-4058-83eb-

stuff snipped

Canada is my 2nd favorite country anyway!

I heard a comedian say his second favorite singer was Michael
Jackson. When asked who his first favorite singer was, he replied
"Everybody else!"

Michael Jackson could be an example to us all.

Where else could a poor black kid grow up to be a rich white man and marry
Elvis Presley's daughter?

Is this a great country, or what?

Heading for the next cock-up. Planning on vetoing Palaestine's
application for statehood. You can see why Arabs just love you.
Why don'tyou mind your own business?

Go back in time to 1912-1920 and tell that to your own government. Most
of the current problems in mideast can trace back to British Empire
meddling. Western world should have stayed out of that entire part of
planet, and for damn sure never given them modern arms or taught them
how to drill for oil.

--
aem sends...

On Sep 16, 3:27*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 9/16/2011 3:53 AM, harry wrote:









On Sep 15, 8:37 pm, *wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
*wrote in message
news:9fef2c04-de37-4058-83eb-

stuff snipped

Canada is my 2nd favorite country anyway!

I heard a comedian say his second favorite singer was Michael
Jackson. *When asked who his first favorite singer was, he replied
"Everybody else!"

Michael Jackson could be an example to us all.

Where else could a poor black kid grow up to be a rich white man and marry
Elvis Presley's daughter?

Is this a great country, or what?

Heading for the next cock-up. *Planning on vetoing Palaestine's
application for statehood. *You can see why Arabs just love you.
Why don'tyou mind your own business?

Go back in time to 1912-1920 and tell that to your own government.

I'm not British; I'm American. But I don't totally disagree with your
comments.

However, eventually they would have learned to exploit Western need
for oil, whether via Britain,US, or other "developed"country

HB

Most of the current problems in mideast can trace back to British
Empire
meddling. Western world should have stayed out of that entire part of
planet, and for damn sure never given them modern arms or taught them
how to drill for oil.

--
aem sends...

On Sep 16, 6:27*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 9/16/2011 3:53 AM, harry wrote:

Heading for the next cock-up. *Planning on vetoing Palaestine's
application for statehood. *You can see why Arabs just love you.
Why don'tyou mind your own business?

Go back in time to 1912-1920 and tell that to your own government. Most
of the current problems in mideast can trace back to British Empire
meddling. Western world should have stayed out of that entire part of
planet, and for damn sure never given them modern arms or taught them
how to drill for oil.

Hee Haw already knows all of that. He knows that the Middle East was
already a cauldron when the British Umpire entered the Middle East at
the turn of the last century to forestall the German influence. He
knows about the Sykes-Picot Treaty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement

He's projecting stupidity onto other people in the hopes that he'll be
able to convince someone that he's not an idiot and that he has a
valid opinion.

He's 0 for 2. Well, more like 0.000 going back as far as your stomach
can handle.

R

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

He's projecting stupidity onto other people in the hopes that he'll be
able to convince someone that he's not an idiot and that he has a
valid opinion.

Hee Haw does that. It's what braying donkeys do in a pasture.

Even with big ears he can't hear you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6etfJgZQ7A&feature=player_embedded#!

"Oren" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

He's projecting stupidity onto other people in the hopes that he'll be
able to convince someone that he's not an idiot and that he has a
valid opinion.

Hee Haw does that. It's what braying donkeys do in a pasture.

Even with big ears he can't hear you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6etfJgZQ7A&feature=player_embedded#!

Be kind. Winning WWII single-handedly has left dear Harry with a horribly
stooped back from carrying the weight by himself. His angers comes from
having to watch the Yanks just hanging around getting British women knocked
up. While flying his nightly solo bombing missions over Berlin in a plane
he designed and built himself, a sneaky Yank stole his sweetheart, Elizabeth
Rottencrotch, and he has been irrationally angry at America ever since.

--
Bobby G.

*DIAS, RALPH E. Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Marine
Corps, 3d Platoon, Company D, 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine
Division (Rein) FMF. Place and date: Que Son Mountains, Republic of Vietnam,
12 November 1969. Born: 15 July 1950, Shelocta, Indiana County, Pa.
Severely wounded by enemy snipers while charging across the open area.
Braving enemy fire for a second time, Pfc. Dias was again wounded. Unable to
walk, he crawled 15 meters to the protection of a rock located near his
objective and, repeatedly exposing himself to intense hostile fire,
unsuccessfully threw several hand grenades at the machine gun emplacement.
Still determined to destroy the emplacement, Pfc. Dias again moved into the
open and was wounded a third time by sniper fire. As he threw a last grenade
which destroyed the enemy position, he was mortally wounded by another enemy
round.