On Sep 16, 7:55*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:22:52 -0400, "Robert Green"

wrote:

Well, I'm glad my ultra-flat feet made that decision for me.

That's a good thing. *Many suffer angst about VN service.
I never was forced to make the decision, because I joined the Navy
shortly before JFK was killed, and was sworn in the day after my 17th
birthday in Jan, '64.
The reason I went in the Navy was romanticism about the sea from my
reading, the normal patriotism, *and that 2 friends went in at the
same time. *Without the desire to walk in the footsteps of my friends
I would have joined the Marines.
Though I disagree with Heybub's premise about joining up in current
times to blow things up, I admit I fit that bill.
In late '65 or early '66, when I was about 19, there was a call for
volunteers roster for VN Swift boat duty making the rounds on my ship.
I volunteered, and distinctly remember thinking 2 things.
1. Action! *Machine guns! *
Chasing Soviet subs in the Atlantic and Med was pretty boring.
2. Hazardous duty pay.
Of course they didn't take me. *They don't need a boilerman on a Swift
boat. *Needs of the Navy.

I didn't agree
with that war or with these wars and I'm sorry that the draft was "shelved"
because I believe if it still existed, we would have left AfRaq a long, long
time ago. *With a draft, perhaps we wouldn't even have started either war. I
guess I grew up to think Americans never threw the first punch, but they
always punched back if hit first and punched hard enough to settle the
matter.

I agree about the draft. *Iraq would have been impossible.
But a draft is impossible after "womens lib" without "total war."
You'd have to draft women.
Hard enough for parents let their sons be drafted.
But I've never changed my stance that Viet Nam was necessary for the
time. *It wasn't managed right, and it was tragic.
Global communism was a real threat then, and the Domino Theory was
solid enough. Nobody will ever prove that fighting in VN didn't stop
the dominos.
This Arab spring is a very good example of how dominos topple.
I'll always honor those who served in VN.
No sense going into the revisionism draft-dodgers and peaceniks use to
justify their behavior during VN. * They might be right. *
Back to Heybub's idea of "Why We Fight," it hard to say why somebody
is in the military.
After my 4 years in the '60's I joined the reserves for another 2
years in the mid-70's. *Just for the money. *But I still knew my duty
My son-in-law joined the Army because it was the only job he could
find.
But as late as the Iran hostage crisis, when I was 32 or so, I wanted
to paratroop into Iran and blow things up.
My thinking matured slowly, accelerating when I began seeing my own
kids as potential cannon fodder for cowardly politicians.
Now my finger is very, very slow to itch.

--Vic

You were a late developer. Most non-Americans could see that VN was
stupid from an early age. You were a dupe.

The whole communism threat thing was a load of utter ********. A
bogeyman to terrify the populace. The rich were afraid of revolution
in their own countries.

Whilst the Soviet Union existed, the ordinary working person
throughout the world had a fair crack ofthe whip and reasonable
prosperity.
Before and as we now see, after, the rich robbed the poor.
During the time of communism, they were afraid the workers would
revolt.
Now that threat has disappeared (they think) they are reverting to
19th century form. (The erosion of democracy and garnering in of all
wealth to themselves.)

There was no threat of a financial collapse in a planned communist
economy.
The present financial problems are a planned plot, it's not an
accident.

Now they need a newbogeyman. THE EVIL MUSLIMS.

You bloody Yanks have picked a fight with them just as with communists
because you need a perpetual war to justify the actions of the rich
and politicians.

Only this time you may have bitten off more than you can chew.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are lost.
Now they really will be coming to gitcha.

On Sep 17, 12:55*am, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour

wrote:
He's projecting stupidity onto other people in the hopes that he'll be
able to convince someone that he's not an idiot and that he has a
valid opinion.

Hee Haw does that. It's what braying donkeys do in a pasture.

Even with big ears he can't hear you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6etfJgZQ7A&feature=player_embedded#!

Heh Heh. That says it all about Americans. The guy considers you to
be donkeys.
What cheap claptrap propaganda. Showsthe depths American politics has
sunk to.

Shows the depths you have sunk to as well.

On Sep 17, 6:38*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Oren" wrote in message

news
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

He's projecting stupidity onto other people in the hopes that he'll be
able to convince someone that he's not an idiot and that he has a
valid opinion.

Hee Haw does that. It's what braying donkeys do in a pasture.

Even with big ears he can't hear you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6etfJgZQ7A&feature=player_embedded#!

Be kind. *Winning WWII single-handedly has left dear Harry with a horribly
stooped back from carrying the weight by himself. *His angers comes from
having to watch the Yanks just hanging around getting British women knocked
up. *While flying his nightly solo bombing missions over Berlin in a plane
he designed and built himself, a sneaky Yank stole his sweetheart, Elizabeth
Rottencrotch, and he has been irrationally angry at America ever since.

--
Bobby G.

*DIAS, RALPH E. *Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Marine
Corps, 3d Platoon, Company D, 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine
Division (Rein) FMF. Place and date: Que Son Mountains, Republic of Vietnam,
12 November 1969. *Born: 15 July 1950, Shelocta, Indiana County, Pa.
Severely wounded by enemy snipers while charging across the open area.
Braving enemy fire for a second time, Pfc. Dias was again wounded. Unable to
walk, he crawled 15 meters to the protection of a rock located near his
objective and, repeatedly exposing himself to intense hostile fire,
unsuccessfully threw several hand grenades at the machine gun emplacement..
Still determined to destroy the emplacement, Pfc. Dias again moved into the
open and was wounded a third time by sniper fire. As he threw a last grenade
which destroyed the enemy position, he was mortally wounded by another enemy
round.

Tch. I have always told you the RUSSIANS won WW2.

Higgs Boson wrote:

Most of the current problems in mideast can trace back to British
Empire

Not exactly. The British introduced western concepts to the backward. The
concept of the rule of law, majority rule, capitalism, and more.

These lessons took root and grew in such places as India and Indonesia.
Sadly, in spite of more than fifty years of experiencing these lessons first
hand, the Muslim countries never really absorbed it.

Compare India and Pakistan. Both were ruled by the British, as India, until
1948. Today, India is the largest democracy on the planet and Pakistan is a
third-world piece of junk. Other places the British ruled include Jordan,
Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and more. All junk.

harry wrote:

Now they need a newbogeyman. THE EVIL MUSLIMS.

You bloody Yanks have picked a fight with them just as with communists
because you need a perpetual war to justify the actions of the rich
and politicians.

Only this time you may have bitten off more than you can chew.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are lost.
Now they really will be coming to gitcha.

Yep. They bombed our city and we won't rest until they're vanquished.

Contrast this with the bus and underground bombings in Britain: More
Mohammaden neighborhoods are put "off limits" to the police.

On Sep 17, 12:16*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
harry wrote:

Now they need a newbogeyman. THE EVIL MUSLIMS.

You bloody Yanks have picked a fight with them just as with communists
because you need a perpetual war to justify the actions of the rich
and politicians.

Only this time you may have bitten off more than you can chew.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are lost.
Now they really will be coming to gitcha.

Yep. They bombed our city and we won't rest until they're vanquished.

Contrast this with the bus and underground bombings in Britain: More
Mohammaden neighborhoods are put "off limits" to the police.

Er, you still on those pills?
It was Saudi Arabians bombed your city.
You are the ones being vanquished. Hadn't you noticed?

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 23:52:51 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:



You were a late developer. Most non-Americans could see that VN was
stupid from an early age. You were a dupe.

The whole communism threat thing was a load of utter ********. A
bogeyman to terrify the populace. The rich were afraid of revolution
in their own countries.


Calling Stalinist/Maoist communism no threat is easily crazy enough to
disagree with.

Whilst the Soviet Union existed, the ordinary working person
throughout the world had a fair crack ofthe whip and reasonable
prosperity.
Before and as we now see, after, the rich robbed the poor.
During the time of communism, they were afraid the workers would
revolt.
Now that threat has disappeared (they think) they are reverting to
19th century form. (The erosion of democracy and garnering in of all
wealth to themselves.)


Good point there. When the Soviets fell is when Wall Street took
over. "Patriotism" no longer required. Worship wealth instead.
Anybody can track 401k participation along that timeline.
401k's are a direct pipeline from Wall Street into the common working
man's wallet
Wealth disparity in now similar to the 1920's and Robber Barons
are probably more numerous than the Teddy Roosevelt era.
There's no Teddy Roosevelt now.
But we do have cable TV and Xboxes.
Me too. But I game on PC so I don't need an Xbox.

There was no threat of a financial collapse in a planned communist
economy.
The present financial problems are a planned plot, it's not an
accident.


Greed can't plan well. You give them too much credit.
Only real dopes got us where we are.


Now they need a newbogeyman. THE EVIL MUSLIMS.

You bloody Yanks have picked a fight with them just as with communists
because you need a perpetual war to justify the actions of the rich
and politicians.

Only this time you may have bitten off more than you can chew.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are lost.
Now they really will be coming to gitcha.

I don't think ragheads scare many Americans. Too many of us willing
to nuke them into dust or just go in there with light arms if they
want to play nicer.
But I agree the powers that be have scared enough of those who really
care more about their cable TV and Xboxes than they care to think.
So they have allowed a huge new anti-terrorism defense industry to be
built to drain their wallets.
How much it costs us is secret. National security.
You're not too far off.
But you're no different over there.
Nobody's forcing the Brits to march in lockstep with the U.S.

--Vic

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 23:57:33 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Even with big ears he can't hear you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6etfJgZQ7A&feature=player_embedded#!

Heh Heh. That says it all about Americans. The guy considers you to
be donkeys.
What cheap claptrap propaganda. Showsthe depths American politics has
sunk to.

Shows the depths you have sunk to as well.

Not really. Feeding elephants is cheaper than feeding donkeys. A point
you missed in the video.

Higgs Boson wrote:

I'm not British; I'm American.

Where is this particle named after you? I thought you would show us by
now!

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 01:38:59 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

He's projecting stupidity onto other people in the hopes that he'll be
able to convince someone that he's not an idiot and that he has a
valid opinion.

Hee Haw does that. It's what braying donkeys do in a pasture.

Even with big ears he can't hear you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6etfJgZQ7A&feature=player_embedded#!

Be kind. Winning WWII single-handedly has left dear Harry with a horribly
stooped back from carrying the weight by himself. His angers comes from
having to watch the Yanks just hanging around getting British women knocked
up. While flying his nightly solo bombing missions over Berlin in a plane
he designed and built himself, a sneaky Yank stole his sweetheart, Elizabeth
Rottencrotch, and he has been irrationally angry at America ever since.

British women like chocolate and American cigarettes. We sent the 8th
Air Force before the unit had airplanes.

On Sep 17, 4:13*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:

*Most *of the current problems in mideast can trace back to British
Empire

I didn't write that.

HB

Not exactly. The British introduced western concepts to the backward. The
concept of the rule of law, majority rule, capitalism, and more.

These lessons took root and grew in such places as India and Indonesia.
Sadly, in spite of more than fifty years of experiencing these lessons first
hand, the Muslim countries never really absorbed it.

Compare India and Pakistan. Both were ruled by the British, as India, until
1948. Today, India is the largest democracy on the planet and Pakistan is a
third-world piece of junk. Other places the British ruled include Jordan,
Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and more. All junk.

On Sep 17, 3:02*pm, G. Morgan wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:
I'm not British; I'm American.

Where is this particle named after you? *I thought you would show us by
now!

They're still searching for ME at the giant Swiss particle
accelerator, CERN. Physicists call Me the "God particle"". If they
can experimentally prove MY existence, it will clear up a lot of
****. At least in *this* Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

HB

On Sep 17, 6:52*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 23:52:51 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:



You were a late developer. Most non-Americans could see that VN was
stupid from an early age. *You were a dupe.

The whole communism threat thing was a load of utter ********. *A
bogeyman to terrify the populace. The rich were afraid of revolution
in their own countries.

Calling Stalinist/Maoist communism no threat is easily crazy enough to
disagree with.

Whilst the Soviet Union existed, the ordinary working person
throughout the world had a fair crack ofthe whip and reasonable
prosperity.
Before and as we now see, after, the rich robbed the poor.
During the time of communism, they were afraid the workers would
revolt.
Now that threat has disappeared (they think) they are reverting to
19th century form. (The erosion of democracy and garnering in of all
wealth to themselves.)

Good point there. *When the Soviets fell is when Wall Street took
over. *"Patriotism" no longer required. *Worship wealth instead.
Anybody can track 401k participation along that timeline.
401k's are a direct pipeline from Wall Street into the common working
man's wallet
Wealth disparity in now similar to the 1920's and Robber Barons
are probably more numerous than the Teddy Roosevelt era.
There's no Teddy Roosevelt now.
But we do have cable TV and Xboxes.
Me too. *But I game on PC so I don't need an Xbox.

There was no threat of a financial collapse in a planned communist
economy.
The present financial problems are a planned plot, it's not an
accident.

Greed can't plan well. *You give them too much credit.
Only real dopes got us where we are.

Now they need a newbogeyman. THE EVIL MUSLIMS.

You bloody Yanks have picked a fight with them just as with communists
because you need a perpetual war to justify the actions of the rich
and politicians.

Only this time you may have bitten off more than you can chew.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are lost.
Now they really will be coming to gitcha.

I don't think ragheads scare many Americans. *Too many of us willing
to nuke them into dust or just go in there with light arms if they
want to play nicer.
But I agree the powers that be have scared enough of those who really
care more about their cable TV and Xboxes than they care to think.
So they have allowed a huge new anti-terrorism defense industry to be
built to drain their wallets.
How much it costs us is secret. *National security.
You're not too far off.
But you're no different over there.
Nobody's forcing the Brits to march in lockstep with the U.S.

--Vic

We had Bliar, the attention seeking megalomaniac.
I know it's a poor excuse.
We need a Maoist revolution right now. A few banker's heads on poles.

On Sep 17, 6:52*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 23:52:51 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:



You were a late developer. Most non-Americans could see that VN was
stupid from an early age. *You were a dupe.

The whole communism threat thing was a load of utter ********. *A
bogeyman to terrify the populace. The rich were afraid of revolution
in their own countries.

Calling Stalinist/Maoist communism no threat is easily crazy enough to
disagree with.

Whilst the Soviet Union existed, the ordinary working person
throughout the world had a fair crack ofthe whip and reasonable
prosperity.
Before and as we now see, after, the rich robbed the poor.
During the time of communism, they were afraid the workers would
revolt.
Now that threat has disappeared (they think) they are reverting to
19th century form. (The erosion of democracy and garnering in of all
wealth to themselves.)

Good point there. *When the Soviets fell is when Wall Street took
over. *"Patriotism" no longer required. *Worship wealth instead.
Anybody can track 401k participation along that timeline.
401k's are a direct pipeline from Wall Street into the common working
man's wallet
Wealth disparity in now similar to the 1920's and Robber Barons
are probably more numerous than the Teddy Roosevelt era.
There's no Teddy Roosevelt now.
But we do have cable TV and Xboxes.
Me too. *But I game on PC so I don't need an Xbox.

There was no threat of a financial collapse in a planned communist
economy.
The present financial problems are a planned plot, it's not an
accident.

Greed can't plan well. *You give them too much credit.
Only real dopes got us where we are.

Now they need a newbogeyman. THE EVIL MUSLIMS.

You bloody Yanks have picked a fight with them just as with communists
because you need a perpetual war to justify the actions of the rich
and politicians.

Only this time you may have bitten off more than you can chew.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are lost.
Now they really will be coming to gitcha.

I don't think ragheads scare many Americans. *Too many of us willing
to nuke them into dust or just go in there with light arms if they
want to play nicer.
But I agree the powers that be have scared enough of those who really
care more about their cable TV and Xboxes than they care to think.
So they have allowed a huge new anti-terrorism defense industry to be
built to drain their wallets.
How much it costs us is secret. *National security.
You're not too far off.
But you're no different over there.
Nobody's forcing the Brits to march in lockstep with the U.S.

--Vic

Oh the ragheads scare Americans alright. We saw them running at 11-9.
And people not afraid to die and with nothing to lose take some
beating.

Higgs Boson wrote:
On Sep 17, 4:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:

Most of the current problems in mideast can trace back to British
Empire

I didn't write that.

HB

Sorry. I see now that you probably did not. If you look back at your post -
which I quoted - you'll notice the absence of "" indicated the sentence
came from a prior post. I assumed, because of the absence of the "" marker,
that the statement was your contribution to the thead.

I apologize for not trying to figure out the most probable snipping.

Higgs Boson wrote:
On Sep 17, 3:02 pm, G. Morgan wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:
I'm not British; I'm American.

Where is this particle named after you? I thought you would show us
by now!

They're still searching for ME at the giant Swiss particle
accelerator, CERN. Physicists call Me the "God particle"". If they
can experimentally prove MY existence, it will clear up a lot of
****. At least in *this* Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson


Yeah, but it's the Swiss. What are the chances they'll find anything?

Don't get me wrong, I admire the Swiss. 100% literate, zero unemployment,
haven't been in a war in, what, 500 years, high standard of living.

'Course it was only recently that women got the right to vote in
Switzerland, but I don't really think there's a correlation...

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 06:38:23 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote:

Higgs Boson wrote:
On Sep 17, 3:02 pm, G. Morgan wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:
I'm not British; I'm American.

Where is this particle named after you? I thought you would show us
by now!

They're still searching for ME at the giant Swiss particle
accelerator, CERN. Physicists call Me the "God particle"". If they
can experimentally prove MY existence, it will clear up a lot of
****. At least in *this* Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson


Yeah, but it's the Swiss. What are the chances they'll find anything?

Don't get me wrong, I admire the Swiss. 100% literate, zero unemployment,
haven't been in a war in, what, 500 years, high standard of living.

'Course it was only recently that women got the right to vote in
Switzerland, but I don't really think there's a correlation...

Oh, the correlation is obvious.

On Sep 18, 12:38*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:
On Sep 17, 3:02 pm, G. Morgan wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:
I'm not British; I'm American.

Where is this particle named after you? I thought you would show us
by now!

They're still searching for ME at the giant Swiss particle
accelerator, CERN. * Physicists call Me the "God particle"". *If they
can experimentally prove MY existence, it will clear up a lot of
****. *At least in *this* Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

Yeah, but it's the Swiss. What are the chances they'll find anything?

Don't get me wrong, I admire the Swiss. 100% literate, zero unemployment,
haven't been in a war in, what, 500 years, high standard of living.

'Course it was only recently that women got the right to vote in
Switzerland, but I don't really think there's a correlation...

It's a joint European project. Only part of the thing is in
Switzerland.

Joint European Torus.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message On Fri, 16
Sep 2011
wrote:



Well, I'm glad my ultra-flat feet made that decision for me.

That's a good thing. Many suffer angst about VN service.
I never was forced to make the decision, because I joined the Navy
shortly before JFK was killed, and was sworn in the day after my 17th
birthday in Jan, '64.
The reason I went in the Navy was romanticism about the sea from my
reading, the normal patriotism, and that 2 friends went in at the
same time. Without the desire to walk in the footsteps of my friends
I would have joined the Marines.

Joining the Navy doubtless improved your chances of staying alive. The USMC
took one hell of a pounding in Vietnam, as did the Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

Army 38,209 killed
USMC 14,838 killed
Navy 2,555 killed
USAF 2,584 killed

Though I disagree with Heybub's premise about joining up in current
times to blow things up, I admit I fit that bill.
In late '65 or early '66, when I was about 19, there was a call for
volunteers roster for VN Swift boat duty making the rounds on my ship.
I volunteered, and distinctly remember thinking 2 things.
1. Action! Machine guns!

There are very few men I know of that aren't fascinated by machine guns. I
think most humans alive today have a very strong innate sense of "tribal
defense." From the Huns to the Vikings, someone was always coming to raid
your village. Those villages and tribes that didn't have that "organize and
strike back" gene well-represented, died out. I think that's why peacenik
families that moved into the deep woods with no TV, movies or other kids to
influence them are shocked to see their kids running around with stick
knives, swords, spears and guns. It's bred in the bone.
Chasing Soviet subs in the Atlantic and Med was pretty boring.

Not if you were in a submarine following them through the Atlantic Ocean's
maze of submarine canyons and the Sov captains habit of turning "Crazy
Ivans." My dad, who built nuke boats, assures me that there were many more
US/Sov sub collisions than were ever reported in the news. As boring as it
may have seemed, keep tracking of submersible nuclear missile launch
platforms was incredibly important to the US's Cold War strategy. If war
ever came, they would come after our nuke missile subs as fast as we would
theirs. Unlike ground silos, whose positions were well known to the Sovs,
subs couldn't be "pretargeted" very easily and sub commanders had incredible
authority concerning launching those missiles if war arose, i.e. "Crimson
Tide."

2. Hazardous duty pay.
Of course they didn't take me. They don't need a boilerman on a Swift
boat.

Just a few boilmakers to climb on board one in the first place! (-:

Needs of the Navy.

Probably saved your life. My Dad's friend was sent over there as a civilian
advisor for the USN and came back blown up by a rocket. My friend came back
a nut case. He would jump out of bed at night, throw his wife up against
the wall in a total fugue, thinking he was back in an ambush in Vietnam.
Any smell of oriental cooking freaked him out. His buddy was killed getting
on the plane to go home by a woman who sold him a leather purse with an
explosive charge it in, not 20 yards from where my friend was standing.
Wars are miserable and expensive things that destroy people's lives long
after they have ended.

I didn't agree
with that war or with these wars and I'm sorry that the draft was
"shelved"
because I believe if it still existed, we would have left AfRaq a long,
long
time ago. With a draft, perhaps we wouldn't even have started either
war. I
guess I grew up to think Americans never threw the first punch, but they
always punched back if hit first and punched hard enough to settle the
matter.


I agree about the draft. Iraq would have been impossible.
But a draft is impossible after "womens lib" without "total war."
You'd have to draft women.
Hard enough for parents let their sons be drafted.

Exactly. But the transition to the all-volunteer force was pretty badly
botched. Iraq really required using the draft to put enough boots on the
ground to start with. But politically, those wars would have ended once
Joes and Janes got drafted. So it was a Catch-22 situation of sorts and
only Eric Shinseki had the courage to say: "Hey, Rummy, we just don't have
enough troops for the quick victory you envision." Thus ended his military
career. But I think he's in good company.

They court-martialed Billy Mitchell when he tried to prove how important air
power would be in the next war. Some modern military strategists want the
US to move away from the carrier groups we now rely on because they are
getting harder and harder to defend in this high tech era. Also, the use of
drones has turned our air power doctrine upside-down. We can deliver drones
on target for a lot less money that manned fighter jets. After years of
resisting, the Air Force is now fully on-board with drone technology.

But I've never changed my stance that Viet Nam was necessary for the
time. It wasn't managed right, and it was tragic.

I don't think it could have been managed right. Too many side issues. If
we fought an all-out war, we would have draw in a million Chinese ground
troops, just like we did in Korea. The think tank I worked for was created
by Bob McNamara in one of his more-clear headed moments. There's no doubt
he was a very bright guy and his theories carried great weight but the
problem is that no one *really* knows what the future will bring. There are
only guesses, something he alluded to in later life.

McNamara's memoir, In Retrospect, published in 1995, presented an account
and analysis of the Vietnam War from his point of view. According to his
lengthy New York Times obituary, "[h]e concluded well before leaving the
Pentagon that the war was futile, but he did not share that insight with the
public until late in life. In 1995, he took a stand against his own conduct
of the war, confessing in a memoir that it was 'wrong, terribly wrong.'" In
return, he faced a "firestorm of scorn" at that time

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara

Global communism was a real threat then, and the Domino Theory was
solid enough. Nobody will ever prove that fighting in VN didn't stop
the dominos.

While it's hard to prove a negative, I think the proof that the domino
theory wasn't as great a threat as everyone once thought lies in our current
close relationship with China, economically. Did you see that coming after
all the fighting we did to stop the dominoes of SE Asia? I certainly didn't
and not many people of the time did. In fact, I'd say almost no one saw it
coming back that, yet that's what unfolded. One could even say they we were
a domino that fell to the Chinese: just not the way everyone expected.

The nation's professional military education system is built around teaching
officers what worked and what didn't. I was convinced that we had now
institutionalized the memory of a war that not only did not get us much of
anything, it blew up OUR society. Our entry into Iraq and Afghanistan
pretty much defied everything we had learned about low-intensity conflicts.

I wish I knew why we suddenly forgot about the dangers of mission-creep, the
futility of wars where we can't tell the good guys from the bad guys and the
lack of a defined mission as in: How do we know when the war is over? I
suspect it's the "rising tide lifts all boats" sort of deal. Promotions
come much faster and to more people in wartime and the military is very
competitive when you get to the O5 ranks. That encourages
forgetfulness. )-:

This Arab spring is a very good example of how dominos topple.

I'd wait and see how they eventually land before I make a judgment. There
are some who believe we've been at the back end of those dominoes via a CIA
that's now quite flush with money. I say that based on the fact that we've
been meddling in the Mideast for a long, long time. Only Harry's Britain
has mucked around more in Middle Eastern affairs than we have.

I'll always honor those who served in VN.

So will I. That's why I've been attaching snippets of MOH winner citations
at the end of my messages. I intend to work my way through the entire
Vietnam war, just to remind people of the sacrifices made by so many men for
their fellow Anericans. "That last full measure."

No sense going into the revisionism draft-dodgers and peaceniks use to
justify their behavior during VN. They might be right.

No matter how we remember it, I always think this: if there was a war that
threatened us directly, like a "Red Dawn" scenario of some sort, there would
be no shortage of patriotic Americans willing to fight to the death. Hitler
and Tojo presented us with that scenario and we rose to the occasion. Would
we have fought to the bitter end like the Germans with their 14 year olds
and their 70 year olds fighting in the Home Guard with panzerfausts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust

You bet we would have. We would have taken to caves and tunnels just like
the Japanese dug in for their projected last stand in the home islands.
It's why we reacted so strongly to 9/11 and why we were so perplexed. We
had no Tokyo or Berlin to smash in retalliation. We were stuck with trying
to punish people who were already dead.

Back to Heybub's idea of "Why We Fight," it hard to say why somebody
is in the military.

Since he asked that question, I've called up a number of my ex-military
friends. You could hear their blood pressure rise over the phone as I read
HeyBub's statement to them. A number of people recalled exactly why they
had joined. "To kill people and blow things up" did not figure prominently
at all. "To help protect my country" seems to be the most popular reason.

After my 4 years in the '60's I joined the reserves for another 2
years in the mid-70's. Just for the money. But I still knew my duty
My son-in-law joined the Army because it was the only job he could
find.

That seems to be a much more likely reason for people to join than the urge
to commit destruction.

But as late as the Iran hostage crisis, when I was 32 or so, I wanted
to paratroop into Iran and blow things up.

You're an Angry Bird. I could tell by your handgun "escapades." (-:

My thinking matured slowly, accelerating when I began seeing my own
kids as potential cannon fodder for cowardly politicians.
Now my finger is very, very slow to itch.

Which is why war is mainly fought by youngsters (so many of the kids that
threw themselves on the live grenades were just that: kids - not even 20
years old). Kids are quick to anger, slow to reason and sadly, easily
convinced that a cause is righteous, even when it's not.

The few kids I know that have served are pretty gung-ho about AfRaq being a
just war. The older reservists that were called up - time and time again -
are less likely to see it that way. Even Ex-SecDef Gates said we've got to
"cool it" on wars of choice because wars of necessity will come often
enough. I think that's very, very wise advice. We clearly don't have the
money to keep up our role as world's policeman. I'm frankly tired of the
target that activity paints on our national back. Let the UN Blue Beanies
do it. At least that way, the hatred is diffused.

--
Bobby G.
*FOSTER, PAUL HELLSTROM Rank and organization: Sergeant, U.S. Marine Corps
Reserve, 2d Battalion, 4th Marines, 3d Marine Division. Place and date: Near
Con Thien, Republic of Vietnam, 14 October 1967. Entered service at: San
Francisco, Calif. Born: 17 April 1939, San Mateo, Calif. A hostile force
penetrated the perimeter and brought a heavy concentration of small arms,
automatic weapons, and rocket fire to bear on the battalion command post. As
the attack continued, a hand grenade landed in the midst of Sgt. Foster and
his 5 companions. Realizing the danger, he shouted a warning, threw his
armored vest over the grenade, and unhesitatingly placed his body over the
armored vest. When the grenade exploded, Sgt. Foster absorbed the entire
blast with his body and was mortally wounded.

"Robert Green" wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message On Fri, 16
Sep 2011
wrote:



Well, I'm glad my ultra-flat feet made that decision for me.

That's a good thing. Many suffer angst about VN service.
I never was forced to make the decision, because I joined the Navy
shortly before JFK was killed, and was sworn in the day after my 17th
birthday in Jan, '64.
The reason I went in the Navy was romanticism about the sea from my
reading, the normal patriotism, and that 2 friends went in at the
same time. Without the desire to walk in the footsteps of my friends
I would have joined the Marines.

Joining the Navy doubtless improved your chances of staying alive. The USMC
took one hell of a pounding in Vietnam, as did the Army.

OTOH- I knew 3 Corpsmen in VN that had joined the Navy to avoid going
to VN. Doc Witt told me how special he felt when he got picked
for a *medical* specialty! When told his first assignment after
school would be Camp Pendleton, CA he wasn't sure what that meant
yet--

He was one badass MF, too. You'll see a lot of Corpsman on the
wall and in your MOH database. Not just because we loved them and
they were mother, Dr., and confessor to a bunch of Marines-- but also
because they were some of the bravest, most selfless folks that ever
walked the earth.

Jim

On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:47:32 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

"Robert Green" wrote:


Joining the Navy doubtless improved your chances of staying alive. The USMC
took one hell of a pounding in Vietnam, as did the Army.

OTOH- I knew 3 Corpsmen in VN that had joined the Navy to avoid going
to VN. Doc Witt told me how special he felt when he got picked
for a *medical* specialty! When told his first assignment after
school would be Camp Pendleton, CA he wasn't sure what that meant
yet--

He was one badass MF, too. You'll see a lot of Corpsman on the
wall and in your MOH database. Not just because we loved them and
they were mother, Dr., and confessor to a bunch of Marines-- but also
because they were some of the bravest, most selfless folks that ever
walked the earth.


That's what I always thought too.
But outside of battle, they are nurses, and the ones I ran into acted
pretty much like nurses.
In 4 years I had 3 encounters with them I remember.

1. I had bronchitis so bad I went to sick bay for help. I had many
bouts of bronchitis when I was young, and when it was bad enough I was
prescribed anti-biotics.
The corpsman said "Go gargle some salt water."
I thought he was just an asshole, but I tried it.
It worked. And I never had bronchitis again.
Best thing a corpsman ever did for me.

2. Slamming in a boiler burner I tore about 4 sq inches of skin off
the palm of a hand in a pinch point, down to meat.
Caught a callous.
It was all oozing blood and hurt like hell.
Wrapped a rag around my hand, got a relief on the burners and went up
the ladder to sick bay.
Figured the corpsman could pour something on it to stop the bleeding
and desensitize it.
Since I was a boilerman, coming from the boiler room where I'd been
changing and slamming burners, I was all sweaty and my hands were
dirty with Navy Special Fuel Oil.
This guy didn't even want me in his sick bay. He was like "Eeeew."
Told me "Go wash you hands." Idiot. I normally washed my hands with
a wire brush.
I just said "**** you." and left. Managed it myself with some pain.

3. I had a tremendous tooth ache for about a week at sea.
When we docked for a 2 day in Naples I was sent to whatever they
called the support base there.
I remember this.
The dentist was a Commander with massive forearms.
I saw his forearms in action.
He had a corpsman assistant.
The dentist shot me up with novocaine, then told the corpsman
to hold my head so it couldn't move.
The Commander went to work pulling a lower molar with the dentists
version of pliers. Took him a long time yanking this way and that,
and the vacuum could hardly keep up with the blood.
He paused once, and the corpsman walked away.
The Commander yelled, "Get back here!"
It was obvious to me the corpsman had a weak stomach.
That tooth would have had a root canal if we weren't at sea.
Only tooth I was missing for the next 30 year.
I got a root canal on a different tooth in Norfolk. It was fine job,
so I'm not knocking Navy dentistry.
Losing that molar was simply needs of the Navy.
Not as bad as thinking about how I supposed to pick up plutonium
with rubber gloves and put it in a bucket for an ASROC casualty.

Like everybody else, it's performance in battle that makes the hero.
I'll never know what I'm made of, and don't really want to find out.

--Vic

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
"Robert Green" wrote:
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
wrote:

stuff snipped

Joining the Navy doubtless improved your chances of staying alive. The
USMC
took one hell of a pounding in Vietnam, as did the Army.

OTOH- I knew 3 Corpsmen in VN that had joined the Navy to avoid going
to VN. Doc Witt told me how special he felt when he got picked
for a *medical* specialty! When told his first assignment after
school would be Camp Pendleton, CA he wasn't sure what that meant
yet--

Oops! Lots of draftees never even got to Vietnam. While it was the "hot
spot" of the time, one of my friends, because of family background, became
one of the few Serbo-Croation linguists assgined at the time to NSA. The
military had plenty of interests outside Vietnam at the time.

He was one badass MF, too. You'll see a lot of Corpsman on the
wall and in your MOH database.

Lord yes. I've been listing only the KIA's. Plenty of citations that
describe Corpsman going back and forth, loading evac choppers, literally
getting shot to pieces while doing it. A number of conscientious objectors
got the MOH, too, IIRC. Just because they wouldn't kill didn't mean they
wouldn't risk their lives to save others.

Not just because we loved them and
they were mother, Dr., and confessor to a bunch of Marines-- but also
because they were some of the bravest, most selfless folks that ever
walked the earth.

Amen. See the tale of Corpsman Wayne Caron below.

--
Bobby G.
*CARON, WAYNE MAURICE Rank and organization: Hospital Corpsman Third Class,
U.S. Navy, Headquarters and Service Company, 3d Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st
Marine Division (Rein), FMF. Place and date: Quang Nam Province, Republic of
Vietnam, 28 July 1968. Entered service at: Boston, Mass. Born: 2 November
1946, Middleboro, Mass. As he moved to the aid of his wounded comrades,
HC3c. Caron was hit in the arm by enemy fire. Although knocked to the
ground, he regained his feet and continued to the injured marines. He
rendered medical assistance to the first marine he reached, who was
grievously wounded, and undoubtedly was instrumental in saving the man's
life. HC3c. Caron then ran toward the second wounded marine, but was again
hit by enemy fire, this time in the leg. Nonetheless, he crawled the
remaining distance and provided medical aid for this severely wounded man.
HC3c. Caron started to make his way to yet another injured comrade, when he
was again struck by enemy small-arms fire. Courageously and with
unbelievable determination, HC3c. Caron continued his attempt to reach the
third marine until he was killed by an enemy rocket round.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:47:32 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
"Robert Green" wrote:

stuff snipped

You'll see a lot of Corpsman on the
wall and in your MOH database. Not just because we loved them and
they were mother, Dr., and confessor to a bunch of Marines-- but also
because they were some of the bravest, most selfless folks that ever
walked the earth.


That's what I always thought too.
But outside of battle, they are nurses, and the ones I ran into acted
pretty much like nurses.
In 4 years I had 3 encounters with them I remember.

1. I had bronchitis so bad I went to sick bay for help. I had many
bouts of bronchitis when I was young, and when it was bad enough I was
prescribed anti-biotics.
The corpsman said "Go gargle some salt water."
I thought he was just an asshole, but I tried it.
It worked. And I never had bronchitis again.
Best thing a corpsman ever did for me.

You're lucky that's all they had to do for you. I've read how they've had
to push people's guts back into their bodies and had to deal with a level of
pain, gore and human suffering that's really not within the comprehension of
most people outside of ER workers and EMTs.

2. Slamming in a boiler burner I tore about 4 sq inches of skin off
the palm of a hand in a pinch point, down to meat.
Caught a callous.
It was all oozing blood and hurt like hell.
Wrapped a rag around my hand, got a relief on the burners and went up
the ladder to sick bay.
Figured the corpsman could pour something on it to stop the bleeding
and desensitize it.
Since I was a boilerman, coming from the boiler room where I'd been
changing and slamming burners, I was all sweaty and my hands were
dirty with Navy Special Fuel Oil.
This guy didn't even want me in his sick bay. He was like "Eeeew."
Told me "Go wash you hands." Idiot. I normally washed my hands with
a wire brush.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just said "**** you." and left. Managed it myself with some pain.

Just proves the variability that happens when people are involved. I
suspect that for every MOH winner there's probably a coward of equal,
although negative, distinction. Humans come in an amazing variety.

3. I had a tremendous tooth ache for about a week at sea.
When we docked for a 2 day in Naples I was sent to whatever they
called the support base there.
I remember this.
The dentist was a Commander with massive forearms.
I saw his forearms in action.
He had a corpsman assistant.
The dentist shot me up with novocaine, then told the corpsman
to hold my head so it couldn't move.
The Commander went to work pulling a lower molar with the dentists
version of pliers. Took him a long time yanking this way and that,
and the vacuum could hardly keep up with the blood.
He paused once, and the corpsman walked away.
The Commander yelled, "Get back here!"
It was obvious to me the corpsman had a weak stomach.
That tooth would have had a root canal if we weren't at sea.
Only tooth I was missing for the next 30 year.
I got a root canal on a different tooth in Norfolk. It was fine job,
so I'm not knocking Navy dentistry.
Losing that molar was simply needs of the Navy.

When I was a kid, my folks took me to a former USAF dentist who was
remarkably production oriented and could do several teeth during one visit.
Dr. Saccaro, IIRC. I've had a tooth yanked the way you describe under
similar circumstance. It feels like they're trying to yank your spinal
column out through your mouth like in the Predator movies. No fun. The doc
showed me tooth with 4 incredibly twisted roots. He was immensely pleased
he got it out in one piece. I felt like I had gone a round with Iron Mike
Tyson.

Not as bad as thinking about how I supposed to pick up plutonium
with rubber gloves and put it in a bucket for an ASROC casualty.

Some of that training should be prefaced with "Even though you're certainly
going to die, but before you expire, doing this might save some of your
fellow soldier or sailors." So many MOH winners have fallen on so many
grenades that there has to have been some training about what to do when you
encounter one in a very bad situation. Once again, "you're probably going
to die when the grenade goes off, but you might be able to save your buddies
if you're prepared."

Like everybody else, it's performance in battle that makes the hero.
I'll never know what I'm made of, and don't really want to find out.

As a police reporter I saw a lot of common people do incredibly uncommon
things, both angelic and demonic. I've done stuff when pumping with
adrenaline that still surprises me to this day. "Ask not for whom the bell
tolls."

--
Bobby G.
*GRANT, JOSEPH XAVIER Rank and organization: Captain (then 1st Lt.), U.S.
Army, Company A, 1st Battalion, 14th Infantry, 25th Infantry Division. Place
and date: Republic of Vietnam, 13 November 1966. Entered service at: Boston,
Mass. Born: 28 March 1940, Cambridge, Mass. G.O. No.: 4, 29 January 1968.
Seeing a platoon leader wounded, Capt. Grant hastened to his aid, in the
face of the mass of fire of the entire enemy force, and moved him to a more
secure position. During this action, Capt. Grant was wounded in the
shoulder. Refusing medical treatment, he returned to the forward part of the
perimeter, where he continued to lead and to inspire his men by his own
indomitable example. While attempting to evacuate a wounded soldier, he was
pinned down by fire from an enemy machine gun. With a supply of hand
grenades, he crawled forward under a withering hail of fire and knocked out
the machine gun, killing the crew, after which he moved the wounded man to
safety. Learning that several other wounded men were pinned down by enemy
fire forward of his position, Capt. Grant disregarded his painful wound and
led 5 men across the fire-swept open ground to effect a rescue. Following
return of the wounded men to the perimeter, a concentration of mortar fire
landed in their midst and Capt. Grant was killed instantly.

On Sep 20, 10:03*pm, Vic Smith
wrote:
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:47:32 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:





"Robert Green" wrote:

Joining the Navy doubtless improved your chances of staying alive. *The USMC
took one hell of a pounding in Vietnam, as did the Army.

OTOH- I knew 3 Corpsmen in VN that had joined the Navy to avoid going
to VN. * * * Doc Witt told me how special he felt when he got picked
for a *medical* specialty! * * * When told his first assignment after
school would be Camp Pendleton, CA he wasn't sure what that meant
yet--

He was one badass MF, too. * * *You'll see a lot of Corpsman on the
wall and in your MOH database. * * Not just because we loved them and
they were mother, Dr., and confessor to a bunch of Marines-- but also
because they were some of the bravest, most selfless folks that ever
walked the earth.

That's what I always thought too.
But outside of battle, they are nurses, and the ones I ran into acted
pretty much like nurses.
In 4 years I had 3 encounters with them I remember.

1. I had bronchitis so bad I went to sick bay for help. *I had many
bouts of bronchitis when I was young, and when it was bad enough I was
prescribed anti-biotics.
The corpsman said "Go gargle some salt water."
I thought he was just an asshole, but I tried it.
It worked. *And I never had bronchitis again.
Best thing a corpsman ever did for me.

2. Slamming in a boiler burner I tore about 4 sq inches of skin off
the palm of a hand in a pinch point, down to meat.
Caught a callous.
It was all oozing blood and hurt like hell.
Wrapped a rag around my hand, got a relief on the burners and went up
the ladder to sick bay.
Figured the corpsman could pour something on it to stop the bleeding
and desensitize it.
Since I was a boilerman, coming from the boiler room where I'd been
changing and slamming burners, I was all sweaty and my hands were
dirty with Navy Special Fuel Oil.
This guy didn't even want me in his sick bay. *He was like "Eeeew."
Told me "Go wash you hands." *Idiot. *I normally washed my hands with
a wire brush.
I just said "**** you." and left. *Managed it myself with some pain.

3. I had a tremendous tooth ache for about a week at sea.
When we docked for a 2 day in Naples I was sent to whatever they
called the support base there.
I remember this.
The dentist was a Commander with massive forearms.
I saw his forearms in action.
He had a corpsman assistant.
The dentist shot me up with novocaine, then told the corpsman
to hold my head so it couldn't move.
The Commander went to work pulling a lower molar with the dentists
version of pliers. *Took him a long time yanking this way and that,
and the vacuum could hardly keep up with the blood.
He paused once, and the corpsman walked away.
The Commander yelled, "Get back here!"
It was obvious to me the corpsman had a weak stomach.
That tooth would have had a root canal if we weren't at sea.
Only tooth I was missing for the next 30 year.
I got a root canal on a different tooth in Norfolk. *It was fine job,
so I'm not knocking Navy dentistry.
Losing that molar was simply needs of the Navy.
Not as bad as thinking about how I supposed to pick up plutonium
with rubber gloves and put it in a bucket for an ASROC casualty.

Like everybody else, it's performance in battle that makes the hero.
I'll never know what I'm made of, and don't really want to find out.

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pity it was all so pointless. You are a brainwashed lot. Meekly going
away on none-of-your-business foriegn wars inflicting savagery on
innocent people.
All for the benifit of the American arms industry/commerce.

Don't feel proud of what you've done. You and your government are evil
*******s, well deserving of 11-9 and of getting thrashed in Iraq and
Afghanistan. Now you have a slight inkling of what it feels like.
The ones that went to Canada to avoid the draft are the heros. You
who went off to kill civilians are cowardly scum fighting from behind
a wall of steel and technology.

And BTW only Americans are obsessed with guns. See what it has got
you. Economic collapse and poverty. Because guns/weapons create only
mayhem ultimately.

And your stupid government never learns.

On Sep 21, 12:45*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:47:32 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
"Robert Green" wrote:

stuff snipped





You'll see a lot of Corpsman on the
wall and in your MOH database. * * Not just because we loved them and
they were mother, Dr., and confessor to a bunch of Marines-- but also
because they were some of the bravest, most selfless folks that ever
walked the earth.

That's what I always thought too.
But outside of battle, they are nurses, and the ones I ran into acted
pretty much like nurses.
In 4 years I had 3 encounters with them I remember.

1. I had bronchitis so bad I went to sick bay for help. *I had many
bouts of bronchitis when I was young, and when it was bad enough I was
prescribed anti-biotics.
The corpsman said "Go gargle some salt water."
I thought he was just an asshole, but I tried it.
It worked. *And I never had bronchitis again.
Best thing a corpsman ever did for me.

You're lucky that's all they had to do for you. *I've read how they've had
to push people's guts back into their bodies and had to deal with a level of
pain, gore and human suffering that's really not within the comprehension of
most people outside of ER workers and EMTs.

2. Slamming in a boiler burner I tore about 4 sq inches of skin off
the palm of a hand in a pinch point, down to meat.
Caught a callous.
It was all oozing blood and hurt like hell.
Wrapped a rag around my hand, got a relief on the burners and went up
the ladder to sick bay.
Figured the corpsman could pour something on it to stop the bleeding
and desensitize it.
Since I was a boilerman, coming from the boiler room where I'd been
changing and slamming burners, I was all sweaty and my hands were
dirty with Navy Special Fuel Oil.
This guy didn't even want me in his sick bay. *He was like "Eeeew."
Told me "Go wash you hands." *Idiot. *I normally washed my hands with
a wire brush.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just said "**** you." and left. *Managed it myself with some pain.

Just proves the variability that happens when people are involved. *I
suspect that for every MOH winner there's probably a coward of equal,
although negative, distinction. *Humans come in an amazing variety.





3. I had a tremendous tooth ache for about a week at sea.
When we docked for a 2 day in Naples I was sent to whatever they
called the support base there.
I remember this.
The dentist was a Commander with massive forearms.
I saw his forearms in action.
He had a corpsman assistant.
The dentist shot me up with novocaine, then told the corpsman
to hold my head so it couldn't move.
The Commander went to work pulling a lower molar with the dentists
version of pliers. *Took him a long time yanking this way and that,
and the vacuum could hardly keep up with the blood.
He paused once, and the corpsman walked away.
The Commander yelled, "Get back here!"
It was obvious to me the corpsman had a weak stomach.
That tooth would have had a root canal if we weren't at sea.
Only tooth I was missing for the next 30 year.
I got a root canal on a different tooth in Norfolk. *It was fine job,
so I'm not knocking Navy dentistry.
Losing that molar was simply needs of the Navy.

When I was a kid, my folks took me to a former USAF dentist who was
remarkably production oriented and could do several teeth during one visit.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 00:52:30 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:



Don't feel proud of what you've done. You and your government are evil
*******s, well deserving of 11-9 and of getting thrashed in Iraq and
Afghanistan. Now you have a slight inkling of what it feels like.
The ones that went to Canada to avoid the draft are the heros. You
who went off to kill civilians are cowardly scum fighting from behind
a wall of steel and technology.

And BTW only Americans are obsessed with guns. See what it has got
you. Economic collapse and poverty. Because guns/weapons create only
mayhem ultimately.


I might agree with some things you say - if you weren't an asshole.
I don't have any guns.
Spent 4 years in the regular Navy back in the '60's.
Never shot anybody, just tended boilers, got drunk, and ****ed whores.
Always ****ed and washed my cock right after.
Never caught a dose.
I'm so clean cut I never got tattooed, and spent little time in jail.
Hoisted beers with Limey sailors in Malta and Kiel.
Except that they worshipped a queen, they were the same as me.
You're the odd man out.

--Vic

On Sep 21, 2:52*am, harry wrote:



Don't feel proud of what you've done. You and your government are evil
*******s, well deserving of 11-9 and of getting thrashed in Iraq and
Afghanistan. *Now you have a slight inkling of what it feels like.

....and you say you don't HATE yanks! And if you believe there were
ANY innocents killed that day...it is called "9/11". Because that's
what WE call it...end of story!

"Robert Green" wrote:

-snip-

Amen. See the tale of Corpsman Wayne Caron below.

Saw that one before. 'just another day at the office for an HM3'.

What happened to Emilio De La Garza in your database? I missed
him in the D's and the g's - and don't want to wait to see if he's
with the L's.

*DE LA GARZA, EMILIO A., JR.

Rank and organization: Lance Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company E,
2d Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division. Place and date: Near
Da Nang, Republic of Vietnam, 11 April 1970. Entered service at:
Chicago, 111. Born: 23 June 1949, East Chicago, Ind. Citation: For
conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above
and beyond the call of duty while serving as a machine gunner with
Company E. Returning with his squad from a night ambush operation,
L/Cpl. De La Garza joined his platoon commander and another marine in
searching for 2 enemy soldiers who had been observed fleeing for cover
toward a small pond. Moments later, he located 1 of the enemy soldiers
hiding among the reeds and brush. As the 3 marines attempted to remove
the resisting soldier from the pond, L/Cpl. De La Garza observed him
pull the pin on a grenade. Shouting a warning, L/Cpl. De La Garza
placed himself between the other 2 marines and the ensuing blast from
the grenade, thereby saving the lives of his comrades at the sacrifice
of his life. By his prompt and decisive action, and his great personal
valor in the face of almost certain death, L/Cpl. De La Garza upheld
and further enhanced the finest traditions of the Marine Corps and the
U.S. Naval Service.
xxxxxxxxxxx

What the citation doesn't say is that he was on the 10th month of his
tour. He'd only gotten to 2/1 a couple months before when 3rd
Marines went home. 2/1 was still packing and we were getting all
the guys who weren't short enough to take the boat back to the states
with the gear.

So he was a short timer with a fairly new unit. . . oh-- and he had a
19 month old daughter back home.
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/l...12e66d6df.html

Though I was in 2/1 and probably within earshot of the incident, I
never heard about it until I was reading MOH citations 25 years later.

Jim

On Sep 21, 11:13*am, Vic Smith
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 00:52:30 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:



Don't feel proud of what you've done. You and your government are evil
*******s, well deserving of 11-9 and of getting thrashed in Iraq and
Afghanistan. *Now you have a slight inkling of what it feels like.
The ones that went to Canada to avoid the draft are the heros. *You
who went off to kill civilians are cowardly scum fighting from behind
a wall of steel and technology.

And BTW only Americans are obsessed with guns. See what it has got
you. Economic collapse and poverty. *Because guns/weapons create only
mayhem ultimately.

I might agree with some things you say - if you weren't an asshole.
I don't have any guns.
Spent 4 years in the regular Navy back in the '60's.
Never shot anybody, just tended boilers, got drunk, and ****ed whores.
Always ****ed and washed my cock right after.
Never caught a dose.
I'm so clean cut I never got tattooed, and spent little time in jail.
Hoisted beers with Limey sailors in Malta and Kiel.
Except that they worshipped a queen, they were the same as me.
You're the odd man out.

--Vic

America has never fought a war against a modern military since Korea.
They try to make war on peasants and women and children these days.
They make wars strictly for economic benifit and to oppress the people
of other countries.

You helped run a warship. One that made war on a land of peasants
that just wanted freedom (From the French initially) and from their
puppet emperor.
Just because you weren't up front doesn't make you less guilty. Even
the cooks were guilty.

On Sep 21, 1:02*pm, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Sep 21, 2:52*am, harry wrote:



Don't feel proud of what you've done. You and your government are evil
*******s, well deserving of 11-9 and of getting thrashed in Iraq and
Afghanistan. *Now you have a slight inkling of what it feels like.

...and you say you don't HATE yanks! *And if you believe there were
ANY innocents killed that day...it is called "9/11". Because that's
what WE call it...end of story!

You have to step back and look at yourselves and your war criminal
governments. You have become nearly as bad as Hitlers Germany.

If you start a war, expect to get hit back. How many civilians died
in Viet Nam, Nicoragua, Iraq and Afghanistan? A hundred times as
many? A thousand times? A hundred thousand times?
And were their lives worth any less that the victimsof 11-9?
How many cities did you destroy?
And all for no good reason. (Money)
Hypocrite.

Obama has been the most morally elevated president you have had for
years and all he gets is abuse.
You need a proper revolution in America to clear out your political
scum.

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote:

-snip-

Amen. See the tale of Corpsman Wayne Caron below.

Saw that one before. 'just another day at the office for an HM3'.

Yes, I replayed that one and confessing to missing others, especially if the
citation was very long and complex. I didn't want to **** people off with
enormous sig lines. They're all heroes. What interests me most is where
they came from, their role in the war, their age and how they "fit" into
America. The most notable fact is that they are every age, every rank,
every MOS, every city. A true sampling of America.

What happened to Emilio De La Garza in your database? I missed
him in the D's and the g's - and don't want to wait to see if he's
with the L's.

I could have sworn I listed him, but after a while, they get a little
jumbled up in my brain. I'll try to be more careful. I was really trying
to get a handle on what HBoson mentioned. How many MOH winners have
actually fallen on a live hand grenade? The answer is more than anyone
could possible imagine.

*DE LA GARZA, EMILIO A., JR.

Rank and organization: Lance Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company E,
2d Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division. Place and date: Near
Da Nang, Republic of Vietnam, 11 April 1970. Entered service at:
Chicago, 111. Born: 23 June 1949, East Chicago, Ind. Citation: For
conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above
and beyond the call of duty while serving as a machine gunner with
Company E. Returning with his squad from a night ambush operation,
L/Cpl. De La Garza joined his platoon commander and another marine in
searching for 2 enemy soldiers who had been observed fleeing for cover
toward a small pond. Moments later, he located 1 of the enemy soldiers
hiding among the reeds and brush. As the 3 marines attempted to remove
the resisting soldier from the pond, L/Cpl. De La Garza observed him
pull the pin on a grenade. Shouting a warning, L/Cpl. De La Garza
placed himself between the other 2 marines and the ensuing blast from
the grenade, thereby saving the lives of his comrades at the sacrifice
of his life. By his prompt and decisive action, and his great personal
valor in the face of almost certain death, L/Cpl. De La Garza upheld
and further enhanced the finest traditions of the Marine Corps and the
U.S. Naval Service.
xxxxxxxxxxx

What the citation doesn't say is that he was on the 10th month of his
tour. He'd only gotten to 2/1 a couple months before when 3rd
Marines went home. 2/1 was still packing and we were getting all
the guys who weren't short enough to take the boat back to the states
with the gear.

There's nothing sadder than a short-timer getting killed.

So he was a short timer with a fairly new unit. . . oh-- and he had a
19 month old daughter back home.

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/l...12e66d6df.html

Very sad. Someone reminded me today that there are plenty of men that
deserved the MOH except that no one lived to tell the tale of their heroism.

Though I was in 2/1 and probably within earshot of the incident, I
never heard about it until I was reading MOH citations 25 years later.

That's spooky.

I had a very spooky experience covering the funerals of the soldiers killed
in the failed Iranian hostage attempt at Arlington. It convinced me that
there's probably something beyond the veil. Valhalla? I hope so, for many
of the 19 and 20 years old kids that won the medal posthumously. would have
likely gone on to do great things.

--
Bobby G.
*HOSKING, CHARLES ERNEST, JR. Rank and organization: Master Sergeant, U.S.
Army, Company A, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces.
Place and date: Phuoc Long Province, Republic of Vietnam, 21 March 1967.
Entered service at: Fort Dix, N.J. Born: 12 May 1924, Ramsey, N.J. He
grasped an attacking Viet Cong in a "Bear Hug" forcing the grenade against
the enemy soldier's chest. He then wrestled the Viet Cong to the ground and
covered the enemy's body with his body until the grenade detonated. The
blast instantly killed both M/Sgt. Hosking and the Viet Cong. By absorbing
the full force of the exploding grenade with his body and that of the enemy,
he saved the other members of his command group from death or serious
injury.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:20:11 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

harry farted in his space suit.

Missed his chance to say something.

Hee Haw!

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:31:13 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Hee Haw!

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:31:13 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Obama has been the most morally elevated president you have had for
years and all he gets is abuse.

Liar.

"Obama has done for the economy what pantyhose did for foreplay."
-- Kinky Friedman

harry wrote:

America has never fought a war against a modern military since Korea.
They try to make war on peasants and women and children these days.
They make wars strictly for economic benifit and to oppress the people
of other countries.

And? That idea, if true, sound pretty smart to me.


You helped run a warship. One that made war on a land of peasants
that just wanted freedom (From the French initially) and from their
puppet emperor.
Just because you weren't up front doesn't make you less guilty. Even
the cooks were guilty.

Um, "guilty" sounds sort of prejudicial. I'd use "responsible." Responsible
in that they joined the military - or acceded to the draft - and therefore
must bear some responsibility for the result.

That same logic was used by Al Queda in attacking the WTC. Those who
voluntarily worked for a capitalist system were as much a part of the
problem as the U.S. State Department.

By that metric, then, there are no "innocent civilians" in a military
conflict.

harry wrote:
On Sep 21, 1:02 pm, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Sep 21, 2:52 am, harry wrote:



Don't feel proud of what you've done. You and your government are
evil *******s, well deserving of 11-9 and of getting thrashed in
Iraq and Afghanistan. Now you have a slight inkling of what it
feels like.

...and you say you don't HATE yanks! And if you believe there were
ANY innocents killed that day...it is called "9/11". Because that's
what WE call it...end of story!

You have to step back and look at yourselves and your war criminal
governments. You have become nearly as bad as Hitlers Germany.

If you start a war, expect to get hit back. How many civilians died
in Viet Nam, Nicoragua, Iraq and Afghanistan? A hundred times as
many? A thousand times? A hundred thousand times?
And were their lives worth any less that the victimsof 11-9?
How many cities did you destroy?
And all for no good reason. (Money)
Hypocrite.

A. There are no "innocent civilians" on a battlefield, even if the
battlefield comprises the entire country.
B. Money - or its surrogate (oil) - is an excellent reason for an armed
conflict.
C. Hypocrisy gets a bad rap. Seventy percent of gynecologists are men.
D. "How many lives, cities, buildings, ant-farms... did you destroy?" In
some cases (Germany, Hiroshima), we destroyed enough. In other instances,
not enough. It's hard to get these things exactly right.



Obama has been the most morally elevated president you have had for
years and all he gets is abuse.
You need a proper revolution in America to clear out your political
scum.

Obama gets abuse, not for his morals (or lack thereof), for his decisions
and the results of those decisions.

I think back to Jimmy Carter. The voters elected him because of his moral
rectitude, having had it up to here with the perceived corruption of Richard
Nixon. The result was a president arguably more moral than his predecessor,
but woefully less competent.

A recent study was conducted comparing the competency of Barak Obama to a
sack of hammers. In five of the seven studied areas, the sack of hammers
came out ahead. (There was a tie on the Gulf Oil Spill and Obama came out
ahead on Leadership.)
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/compari...ck-of-hammers/