I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates brazed
together with copper filler. I have collected some crud inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out. I was thinking of
just placing the heat exchanger on my propane turkey fryer on low for
an hour or so to try to incinerate the crud inside and turn it into
ash. However, I don't want to melt the copper brazing and make the
unit useless. I have little experience with brazing, and never with
copper. Does anyone know if a propane flame will heat the brazing to
the point of melting?

Thanks.

In article
,
Matt wrote:

I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates brazed
together with copper filler. I have collected some crud inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out. I was thinking of
just placing the heat exchanger on my propane turkey fryer on low for
an hour or so to try to incinerate the crud inside and turn it into
ash. However, I don't want to melt the copper brazing and make the
unit useless. I have little experience with brazing, and never with
copper. Does anyone know if a propane flame will heat the brazing to
the point of melting?

Thanks.

Google sez: A propane flame is about 3600F. Copper melts around 2000F. I
don't know how hot your turkey fryer is on low.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:17:45 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article
,
Matt wrote:

I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates brazed
together with copper filler. I have collected some crud inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out. I was thinking of
just placing the heat exchanger on my propane turkey fryer on low for
an hour or so to try to incinerate the crud inside and turn it into
ash. However, I don't want to melt the copper brazing and make the
unit useless. I have little experience with brazing, and never with
copper. Does anyone know if a propane flame will heat the brazing to
the point of melting?

Thanks.

Google sez: A propane flame is about 3600F. Copper melts around 2000F. I
don't know how hot your turkey fryer is on low.

My turkey fryer is about 3700F. It cooks a turkey in 3 seconds.

On Apr 11, 10:38*am, Matt wrote:
I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates brazed
together with copper filler. *I have collected some crud inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out. *I was thinking of
just placing the heat exchanger on my propane turkey fryer on low for
an hour or so to try to incinerate the crud inside and turn it into
ash. *However, I don't want to melt the copper brazing and make the
unit useless. *I have little experience with brazing, and never with
copper. *Does anyone know if a propane flame will heat the brazing to
the point of melting?

Thanks.


Learn how to clean HVAC components like a professional...

You are either using the wrong cleaner, the wrong cleaning tools
OR not repeating the process enough times...

If you have removed the component from its normally installed
location you could consider attempting to clean it in the dishwasher
if it will fit, or pressure washing it...

~~ Evan

On Apr 11, 4:49*pm, Evan wrote:
On Apr 11, 10:38*am, Matt wrote:

I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates brazed
together with copper filler. *I have collected some crud inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out. *I was thinking of
just placing the heat exchanger on my propane turkey fryer on low for
an hour or so to try to incinerate the crud inside and turn it into
ash. *However, I don't want to melt the copper brazing and make the
unit useless. *I have little experience with brazing, and never with
copper. *Does anyone know if a propane flame will heat the brazing to
the point of melting?

Thanks.

Learn how to clean HVAC components like a professional...

You are either using the wrong cleaner, the wrong cleaning tools
OR not repeating the process enough times...

If you have removed the component from its normally installed
location you could consider attempting to clean it in the dishwasher
if it will fit, or pressure washing it...

~~ Evan

I actually use this device for homebrewing, so it is already off the
intended use. I could use caustic soda, but would prefer to do this
without chemicals. I doubt that the flame is really 3700 degrees, as
that would likely melt the stainless steel as well, and I know that's
not the case.

Anyone else?

Very unlikely. I've managed to melt aluminum with a propane
torch, but can't say as I've melted copper. So, the answer
is "almost certainly not".

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Matt" wrote in message
...
I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates
brazed
together with copper filler. I have collected some crud
inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out. I was
thinking of
just placing the heat exchanger on my propane turkey fryer
on low for
an hour or so to try to incinerate the crud inside and turn
it into
ash. However, I don't want to melt the copper brazing and
make the
unit useless. I have little experience with brazing, and
never with
copper. Does anyone know if a propane flame will heat the
brazing to
the point of melting?

Thanks.

What type of crud, and how did it get there?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Matt" wrote in message
...

I actually use this device for homebrewing, so it is already
off the
intended use. I could use caustic soda, but would prefer to
do this
without chemicals. I doubt that the flame is really 3700
degrees, as
that would likely melt the stainless steel as well, and I
know that's
not the case.

Anyone else?

"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Apr 11, 10:38 am, Matt wrote:
I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates brazed
together with copper filler. I have collected some crud inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out. I was thinking of
just placing the heat exchanger on my propane turkey fryer on low for
an hour or so to try to incinerate the crud inside and turn it into
ash. However, I don't want to melt the copper brazing and make the
unit useless. I have little experience with brazing, and never with
copper. Does anyone know if a propane flame will heat the brazing to
the point of melting?

Thanks.


Learn how to clean HVAC components like a professional...

Easy dawg. He's a homebrewer looking for advice on what is usually a hobby
business.

You are either using the wrong cleaner, the wrong cleaning tools OR not
repeating the process enough times...

Possibly, but his requirements differ slightly from the HVAC use of the
product and that could require cleaning methods that vary from the standard
industry practice.

If you have removed the component from its normally installed
location you could consider attempting to clean it in the dishwasher
if it will fit, or pressure washing it...

Now *that's* a good suggestion and I am surprised it didn't occur earlier in
this thread. Of course, I see every job as a pressure-washer job since I
got my 1st pressure washer. On the high setting with the microjet wand mine
strips paints, stones out of concrete and paint off cars. Should do the
trick here if you can get the nozzle close enough to the crud. Might want
to soak it in warm water with a surfactant or degreaser and then quick rinse
to aid the pressure washing process.

If the OP can better ID the composition of the crud, the chemistry could
better matched to decrudding the unit. I would think the last thing you'd
want in a heat exchanger is a residue of baked on crud blocking heat
transfer.

--
Bobby G.

most likely it is proteins that coagulate out of the solution when the
hot beer (wort) cools quickly along with little bits of hops that
aren't caught in the pre-filter before entering the heat exchanger.
They probably started getting caught in the channels of the heat
exchanger but I didn't notice until liquid got caught in there as
well so I could hear it when I shake it. I've tried boiling in
trisodium phosphate, soaking in oxyclean, acid-based cleanser, bleach,
turning a pressure washer on it, and baking in the oven at 400 degrees
for an hour. Nothing can seem to get these deposits out....so I
thought to try incinerating them.

"Matt" wrote
I doubt that the flame is really 3700 degrees, as
that would likely melt the stainless steel as well, and I know that's
not the case.

Anyone else?

The adiabatic temperature is actually 3596 degrees. The fact that the
flame is that hot does not mean it will instantly melt the metal. You have
to take in the factors for conduction, thermal mass, etc.

Given your lack of physics knowledge, good chance no matter what you do you
will f--- it up. Uneven heating can cuase other problemsw ith warping.
I'd use a caustic cleaner and boil it out. Try a radiator shop.

On Apr 11, 5:06*pm, Matt wrote:
On Apr 11, 4:49*pm, Evan wrote:



On Apr 11, 10:38*am, Matt wrote:

I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates brazed
together with copper filler. *I have collected some crud inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out. *I was thinking of
just placing the heat exchanger on my propane turkey fryer on low for
an hour or so to try to incinerate the crud inside and turn it into
ash. *However, I don't want to melt the copper brazing and make the
unit useless. *I have little experience with brazing, and never with
copper. *Does anyone know if a propane flame will heat the brazing to
the point of melting?

Thanks.

Learn how to clean HVAC components like a professional...

You are either using the wrong cleaner, the wrong cleaning tools
OR not repeating the process enough times...

If you have removed the component from its normally installed
location you could consider attempting to clean it in the dishwasher
if it will fit, or pressure washing it...

~~ Evan

I actually use this device for homebrewing, so it is already off the
intended use. *I could use caustic soda, but would prefer to do this
without chemicals. *I doubt that the flame is really 3700 degrees, as
that would likely melt the stainless steel as well, and I know that's
not the case.

Anyone else?


Yeah, I *DO* have something else...

Ask a rather dumb question without completely outlining your problem
and how you are using something in a NON-Standard application and
then complain at the replies...

Ok...

I was correct... You are using the wrong cleaner...

You need something which will strip all biological residues off of a
metal surface... You are looking for specialized cleaning chemicals
used for crime scene clean ups and scouring/cleaning hospitals...

You will have to find a local source for industrial cleansers as that
is what you need, you maybe homebrewing, but that is an industrial
process and you would therefore need industrial cleaners to deal
with the leftover residues because your dish detergent and the stuff
you can buy at Home Depot just aren't going to cut it...

~~ Evan

Thank you for your reply. I go back and forth between trying to
provide too many details and just the basics. If I say everything I
tried up front, and the specifics of my setup, then someone is sure to
tell me how dumb I am for doing what I've already tried instead of
helping me fix the problem.

TO give the details - The unit is self-contained with four garden hose
connectors - two for cold water and two for hot beer (wort). That is
the only access I have to the insides, which consist of 20 plates (10
water, 10 beer). I will try pressure washing, as well as using some
industrial cleansers. I know other homebrewers have used caustic soda
with great results so I guess I will give that a shot.

In article
,
Matt wrote:

Thank you for your reply. I go back and forth between trying to
provide too many details and just the basics. If I say everything I
tried up front, and the specifics of my setup, then someone is sure to
tell me how dumb I am for doing what I've already tried instead of
helping me fix the problem.

TO give the details - The unit is self-contained with four garden hose
connectors - two for cold water and two for hot beer (wort). That is
the only access I have to the insides, which consist of 20 plates (10
water, 10 beer). I will try pressure washing, as well as using some
industrial cleansers. I know other homebrewers have used caustic soda
with great results so I guess I will give that a shot.

It's hard to beat ultrasonic cleaning for busting crap loose. Any way
you could stick a transducer down one of those garden hose fittings?

On Apr 11, 9:46*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
The adiabatic temperature *is actually 3596 degrees. *The fact that the
flame is that hot does not mean it will instantly melt the metal. *You have
to take in the factors for conduction, thermal mass, etc.

Also note that that is the temperature of the hottest part of the core
of the flame. Unless you have your exchanger a few millimeters from
the burner it won't experience anything like that temp. But I can't
really give you a useful approximation of what you WILL get.

You mean, all this time you knew what worked, but you
refused to do what others told you was a successful
technique? Quit wasting our time.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Matt" wrote in message
...

I know other homebrewers have used caustic soda
with great results so I guess I will give that a shot.

On Apr 11, 7:43*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
What type of crud, and how did it get there?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Matt" wrote in message

...

I actually use this device for homebrewing, so it is already
off the
intended use. *I could use caustic soda, but would prefer to
do this
without chemicals. *I doubt that the flame is really 3700
degrees, as
that would likely melt the stainless steel as well, and I
know that's
not the case.

Anyone else?

You can solder with a propane torch, but you can't braze.
Solder melts around 450F, brazing at around 1200F.
That's why you need a MAPP or acetylene torch to
braze. Also, with something large like a heat exchanger,
it's obviously going to be capable of dissipating a lot of
the heat coming off that turkey fryer.

So, my answer would be it won't have sufficient heat
to effect the brazed joints. If you want to do a test,
get a piece of brazing rod and
hold it on the flame. However, I also agree with others
that have suggested there may be a better solution,
eg a solvent, that could get the crud out, depending on
what it is. Depending on what it is, the fire approach
might just turn it into crud that still will not come off.

In article , Matt wrote:

[...] I know other homebrewers have used caustic soda
with great results so I guess I will give that a shot.

Try washing soda first -- it's a lot more caustic than baking soda, but not
nearly as dangerous as caustic soda (aka lye). If you do use caustic soda,
make sure to wear rubber gloves and eye protection.

Washing soda is available in many grocery stores on the same aisle as laundry
detergents. The most common brand is Arm & Hammer -- the box looks pretty much
like the familiar box of Arm & Hammer baking soda, except it's a lot bigger.

Not exactly. Others have said that caustic soda run through a
recirculating pump will eventually eat through the crud, but I have no
pump to do this. So I propose to try just putting the exchanger into
a heated bath with caustic soda in it. I have no idea if this will be
successful or not, therefore I thought I would solicit opinions on the
incineration idea.

(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article
,
Matt wrote:

[...] I know other homebrewers have used caustic soda
with great results so I guess I will give that a shot.

Try washing soda first -- it's a lot more caustic than baking soda,
but not nearly as dangerous as caustic soda (aka lye). If you do use
caustic soda, make sure to wear rubber gloves and eye protection.

do you mean "borax"? (sodium tetraborate)it is often used as a
brazing/welding flux.
best to mix with boric acid,from what I've read,75/25 ratio is good.


Washing soda is available in many grocery stores on the same aisle as
laundry detergents. The most common brand is Arm & Hammer

Or 20 Mule Team Borax.

-- the box
looks pretty much like the familiar box of Arm & Hammer baking soda,
except it's a lot bigger.


propane is not hot enough for brazing,but OK for soldering.
you need oxy-MAPP or oxy-acetylene for brazing.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

In article , Jim Yanik wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article
,
Matt wrote:

[...] I know other homebrewers have used caustic soda
with great results so I guess I will give that a shot.

Try washing soda first -- it's a lot more caustic than baking soda,
but not nearly as dangerous as caustic soda (aka lye). If you do use
caustic soda, make sure to wear rubber gloves and eye protection.

do you mean "borax"? (sodium tetraborate)it is often used as a
brazing/welding flux.

No, I mean washing soda (sodium carbonate).

Washing soda is available in many grocery stores on the same aisle as
laundry detergents. The most common brand is Arm & Hammer

Or 20 Mule Team Borax.

Which is, obviously, borax, NOT washing soda.

In article , Matt wrote:
Not exactly. Others have said that caustic soda run through a
recirculating pump will eventually eat through the crud, but I have no
pump to do this. So I propose to try just putting the exchanger into
a heated bath with caustic soda in it. I have no idea if this will be
successful or not, therefore I thought I would solicit opinions on the
incineration idea.

I'd sure try washing soda first. It's quite effective, and much cheaper and
much safer than lye.

On Apr 12, 12:50*pm, Matt wrote:
Not exactly. *Others have said that caustic soda run through a
recirculating pump will eventually eat through the crud, but I have no
pump to do this. *So I propose to try just putting the exchanger into
a heated bath with caustic soda in it. *I have no idea if this will be
successful or not, therefore I thought I would solicit opinions on the
incineration idea.


Soaking in a stagnant bath will remove some of your build up...

However, it is when you circulate a warm solution through the
inside of the device you need cleaned that you will have the
best performance -- the circulation of the cleaning solution
provides a scouring action...

How do you circulate your beer and water through this
heat exchanger ?

Probably worth investing in a small pump which you can
get with hose threads on it for cleaning your set up...

~~ Evan

In ,
wrote:

SNIP to here

You can solder with a propane torch, but you can't braze.
Solder melts around 450F, brazing at around 1200F.
That's why you need a MAPP or acetylene torch to
braze. Also, with something large like a heat exchanger,
it's obviously going to be capable of dissipating a lot of
the heat coming off that turkey fryer.

SNIP from here

I have brazed with propane before, though generally only on smallish
things. I find brass braze and bronze braze to require temperatures that
achieve a glow of "cherry red", which I consider a "dimmish neon
slightly reddish orange". As in around 1500 F.

A turkey frier sounds to me like closer to one of those things used to
melt lead for soldering in-street plumbing that gets soldered, or whatever
it is they use those burners for. I think one of those can probably
be used to disassemble a brass-brazed-lugged bicycle frame, though maybe
with some difficulty.

Then again, is the heat exchanger brazed with brass or bronze braze, or
is it silver-soldered / silver-brazed? "Silver solder" ("silver braze")
melts at a lower temperature than brass and bronze brazes do. If the heat
exchanger is silver-brazed, then I think a turkey frier's frame can melt
the braze.

Now for another thing: Why use a turkey frier rather than a propane
torch? Using a turkey frier even as directed seems adventurous enough to
me, let alone abusing a turkey frier. That sounds to me very adventurous,
possibly outright dangerous. A propane torch sounds to me so much more
suitable. I wonder if the OP is trolling.

--
- Don )

In ,
Matt wrote:

The specifications say that the unit is brazed with 99.9% copper and
the plates are made up of 304 stainless steel. Just for reference,
the unit that I'm referring to is shown he
http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=HX2330BWC

SNIP from here

Should this be correct, then I would only slightly fear ruining this
thing with a propane flame, even one by a turkey frier.

I have melted copper wires with propane torches before, but not any
substantial copper objects. Copper requires over 1900, nearly 2000
degrees F to melt. That temperature achieves a bright yellow-orange,
almost orangish-yellow glow.

My experience is that a propane flame cannot melt even fine wires of
most grades of steel, but can melt fine wires of a few, nothing steel more
substantial than fine wires. Different steels melt at different
temperatures generally ~2300-2700 F, which results in a glow getting into
put-a-spot-in-your-eyes brightness with color of whitish orange-yellow.

Mere "red heat" may tarnish some stainless steels, and there is some
chance of "thermal shock" causing a crack in or adjacent to one of the
braze joints. I would worry about that more than about melting 99.9%
copper braze, if the documentation is correct.
--
- Don )

"Matt" wrote in message
...
The specifications say that the unit is brazed with 99.9% copper and
the plates are made up of 304 stainless steel. Just for reference,
the unit that I'm referring to is shown he
http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=HX2330BWC

I get the impression that the term "heat exchanger" means different
things in different applications, so I apologize for the confusion. I
actually got my hands on some 100% pure lye and tried making a
solution according to the directions on the bottle mixed 1 Tbsp to 1
cup of water and let it sit in the heat exchanger for 30 minutes. I
heated it up to about 160-180 degrees but again, had no method for
agitating the solution inside the device. After 30-40 minutes I
rinsed and the solution was slightly bluish in color - I'm guessing a
reaction to the copper...but it was still clogged. Do you think I
should try again with a stronger concentration?

As for the torch vs. turkey fryer, I just thought that a torch would
have to be swept over the exchanger to make sure I was heating evenly,
while a turkey fryer would apply heat over more of the unit at one
time.

Mix enough solution to fill it and immerse it. Put it on the turkey fryer
and let it boil for a half hour. Attach an external line out of the pot and
you may be able to pressurize one side to for the liquid through it.

On Apr 11, 9:38*am, Matt wrote:
I have a heat exchanger made up of stainless steel plates brazed
together with copper filler. *I have collected some crud inside the
exchanger that I can't for the life of me get out.

snip

Have you discussed the problem with the manufacturer's customer
service? Ask them if they have a cleaning service to offer. The device
is expensive enough to warrant such a service.

Joe