Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
I will be making a gate for the entrance to a house and will need to
join some thick copper rectangular bar. The 0.5" x 1" 110 copper bar is for the gate frame and the infill of the gate will mostly be .5" x .5" square copper rod. I've successfully fabricated copper grillworks for other gates using my Thermal Arc 185TSW. The grillworks were a mix .75" x .1875" flat bar and .1875" round bar and I've been very pleased with how the Thermal Arc works on copper. However, I made some copper hinges out of .1875" x 2" sheet and found that my 185 amp welder is at the very limit of what it can do. So knowing that my Thermal Arc won't be anywhere near able to handle the .5" x 1" bar, I was wondering what would be the best way to make the gate frame? I have an O/A welding setup with #2 and #3 tips (and a 175 CuFt Acetylene tank) and was considering pre-heating the metal until it was red before trying to tig it. I guess another person holding the O/A torch would be useful?. But even preheating it, I'm afraid that won't be enough and I doubt I could get close with the tig torch to that much red hot copper. I've been experimenting with tig brazing 3/16" copper using silicon bronze and haven't had very much luck. The bronze has been balling up -- I didn't have that problem when tig brazing steel. So would it be best to mitre the joints on the thick bar stock to a 45 degree angle and braze it using O/A? Will my O/A setup be enough to braze copper this thick? Using coarse thread screws seems problematic since I doubt soft copper would hold screws well. Thanks for any insight. (Yes, I was a fool for getting copper this thick, but that is what the homeowner wanted and I couldn't find square copper tubing). -Aaron |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Make that a 75 CuFt acetylene tank... Only reason I mention this is
that I'm not sure I can use a #3 or higher tip with that small of a tank. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Interesting question. I will be following this one because it seems
impossible. My vision shows forging end cap T's onto the copper. wrote in message oups.com... I will be making a gate for the entrance to a house and will need to join some thick copper rectangular bar. The 0.5" x 1" 110 copper bar is for the gate frame and the infill of the gate will mostly be .5" x .5" square copper rod. I've successfully fabricated copper grillworks for other gates using my Thermal Arc 185TSW. The grillworks were a mix .75" x .1875" flat bar and .1875" round bar and I've been very pleased with how the Thermal Arc works on copper. However, I made some copper hinges out of .1875" x 2" sheet and found that my 185 amp welder is at the very limit of what it can do. So knowing that my Thermal Arc won't be anywhere near able to handle the .5" x 1" bar, I was wondering what would be the best way to make the gate frame? I have an O/A welding setup with #2 and #3 tips (and a 175 CuFt Acetylene tank) and was considering pre-heating the metal until it was red before trying to tig it. I guess another person holding the O/A torch would be useful?. But even preheating it, I'm afraid that won't be enough and I doubt I could get close with the tig torch to that much red hot copper. I've been experimenting with tig brazing 3/16" copper using silicon bronze and haven't had very much luck. The bronze has been balling up -- I didn't have that problem when tig brazing steel. So would it be best to mitre the joints on the thick bar stock to a 45 degree angle and braze it using O/A? Will my O/A setup be enough to braze copper this thick? Using coarse thread screws seems problematic since I doubt soft copper would hold screws well. Thanks for any insight. (Yes, I was a fool for getting copper this thick, but that is what the homeowner wanted and I couldn't find square copper tubing). -Aaron |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Hello Wayne,
Thanks for the suggestions. I really am using 100% copper (Alloy 110). I already figured out the insulating bit when I made the hinges. When I was welding the hinges on the metal table, I couldn't get a puddle. When I put the hinge in a little cave of fire bricks, I was able to get a puddle. I can try welding two 1' sections of the bar. However, considering that copper seems to just suck up the heat, I'm not sure it would be a good test considering that I'll actually be joining a 4' length to a 6' length. I like the end cap idea, but not sure how I would fabricate those. I can always screw on gussetts to the bottom since there will be a copper panel on the lower portion of the gate that would hide the gussets. However, gussets on top would be ugly. When/if I finish this, is this the kind of thing people would like to see in the drop box? |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
On 20 Oct 2005 14:01:56 -0700, wrote:
I will be making a gate for the entrance to a house and will need to join some thick copper rectangular bar. The 0.5" x 1" 110 copper bar is for the gate frame and the infill of the gate will mostly be .5" x .5" square copper rod. I've successfully fabricated copper grillworks for other gates using my Thermal Arc 185TSW. The grillworks were a mix .75" x .1875" flat bar and .1875" round bar and I've been very pleased with how the Thermal Arc works on copper. However, I made some copper hinges out of .1875" x 2" sheet and found that my 185 amp welder is at the very limit of what it can do. So knowing that my Thermal Arc won't be anywhere near able to handle the .5" x 1" bar, I was wondering what would be the best way to make the gate frame? I have an O/A welding setup with #2 and #3 tips (and a 175 CuFt Acetylene tank) and was considering pre-heating the metal until it was red before trying to tig it. I guess another person holding the O/A torch would be useful?. But even preheating it, I'm afraid that won't be enough and I doubt I could get close with the tig torch to that much red hot copper. I've been experimenting with tig brazing 3/16" copper using silicon bronze and haven't had very much luck. The bronze has been balling up -- I didn't have that problem when tig brazing steel. So would it be best to mitre the joints on the thick bar stock to a 45 degree angle and braze it using O/A? Will my O/A setup be enough to braze copper this thick? Using coarse thread screws seems problematic since I doubt soft copper would hold screws well. Thanks for any insight. (Yes, I was a fool for getting copper this thick, but that is what the homeowner wanted and I couldn't find square copper tubing). Copper melts at about 1984F, somewhat lower than steel. The problem with copper is it's high thermal conductivity, which results in the whole mass sucking heat away from the weld and conveying it by radiation and convection to the environment. Perhaps if you wrapped the bar in ceramic blanket, just leaving a narrow region open for access to the actual weld site, you could reduce the heat loss enough to get a good puddle going. It might take a while for the TIG to heat up the thermal mass of the whole bar, but it'll eventually get there if the blanket reduces the heatloss rate to less than the heat output of the welder. The blanket would also shield you from a large bar glowing within. If you run into duty cycle limitation on the welder, you could preheat with O/A, with blanket in place to limit heatloss rate. Might take awhile, but a 75 cu ft acetylene tank has a fairly long duty cycle... but I figure that 4400 watts (185 amps x 24 volts) will heat up a .5" x 1" x 10" copper bar to near melting in about 64 seconds if there is no heat loss. The blanket won't eliminate heat loss, but it may reduce it enough to make it almost like welding unblanketed steel. I used 10", figuring 5" of shielded region on either side of an exposed 1/2" to 1" wide weld zone about the same as 1" of bare steel since copper is 5X as conductive and assuming metal beyond that distance to not be much of a factor. .. Here is a source for small qty of Durablanket S at reasonable cost: http://www.geocities.com/zoellerforge/flare.html -Aaron |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
On 20 Oct 2005 15:30:16 -0700, "
wrote: Hello Wayne, Thanks for the suggestions. I really am using 100% copper (Alloy 110). I already figured out the insulating bit when I made the hinges. When I was welding the hinges on the metal table, I couldn't get a puddle. When I put the hinge in a little cave of fire bricks, I was able to get a puddle. I can try welding two 1' sections of the bar. However, considering that copper seems to just suck up the heat, I'm not sure it would be a good test considering that I'll actually be joining a 4' length to a 6' length. I like the end cap idea, but not sure how I would fabricate those. I can always screw on gussetts to the bottom since there will be a copper panel on the lower portion of the gate that would hide the gussets. However, gussets on top would be ugly. When/if I finish this, is this the kind of thing people would like to see in the drop box? I'm no expert, but there was once a time when I had to weld copper. It was 3/4" thick, 4" wide, and a little over 2 feet long. No way could I weld it with a 300 amp tig torch. I called the welder who usually did our fancy stuff and he said a good pre-heat would do it. So, using fire bricks I was able to fill in the 1/2" deep 1" wide goof in the part using copper wire as filler. It seems to me that after heating the bar I covered it with fire brick. I for rested my hand on it while welding. Even with the preheat I think it took at least 250 amps. And I may have been using helium. We used helium for some aluminum jobs and ran the torch DC. The metal had to be real clean but boy, could you really lay in the rod. Eric |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
|
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
In article 1129847416.285947.302270
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, says... Hello Wayne, Thanks for the suggestions. I really am using 100% copper (Alloy 110). I'll second Wayne's recommendation of phos/copper brazing. It's relatively inexpensive and a pretty good color match for pure copper. I've brazed heavier (though not as long) sections of copper bus bar than what you're looking at using oxy-propane. Ned Simmons |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Hi Aaron,
Andy is right. Brazing (not brazed) is the best that you can use. I suggest you use AWS - Bag-1 Silver Brazing Alloy CD 45. it would cost $1 in USA. For more info on How to do Heating and Brazing of Copper with CD 45 http://www.brazing.com/techguide/pro...er_welding.asp Austri Basinillo (Philippines) |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Don Foreman wrote:
but I figure that 4400 watts (185 amps x 24 volts) will heat up a .5" x 1" x 10" copper bar to near melting in about 64 seconds if there is no heat loss. The blanket won't eliminate heat loss, but it may reduce it enough to make it almost like welding unblanketed steel. I used 10", figuring 5" of shielded region on either side of an exposed 1/2" to 1" wide weld zone about the same as 1" of bare steel since copper is 5X as conductive and assuming metal beyond that distance to not be much of a factor. Most of your comment I generally agree with. But, I think you will need to blanket much more of the part, out to several FEET on each side. The thermal conductivity of copper is amazing, and a heat sink several feet away can prevent you from heating a part to the temperature you need. I have some experience with soldering and brazing large copper parts, and it is always amazing how much heat comes out the far end of the part! Jon |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Do you have a rosebud tip for your oxyacetylene outfit? It generally
works much better that a regular welding tip for preheating. Even if you gas braze, you could probably preheat with the rosebud, quickly swap tips, and fire up the actual torch tip. The rosebud that I am familiar with is an entire section like a cutting torch attachment and not just a tip, although they may make a tip attachment also. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Xray, you don't have anything constructive to say, so why bother
posting? Why is it material I use to make a gate? The customer likes they way aged copper looks. And if you bothered to google for copper gates, you would find that there are plenty of gates made out of copper. By the way, the total cost of copper was $400. I just finished a wooden gate that cost the same amount in materials. Do you go and complain about people making furniture out of walnut? Or do you believe everything should be made out of MDF? And as to coating steel with copper, do you have any great ideas on how to do that in a small shop? |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
|
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
On 20 Oct 2005 15:30:16 -0700, "
wrote: Hello Wayne, Thanks for the suggestions. I really am using 100% copper (Alloy 110). I already figured out the insulating bit when I made the hinges. When I was welding the hinges on the metal table, I couldn't get a puddle. When I put the hinge in a little cave of fire bricks, I was able to get a puddle. I can try welding two 1' sections of the bar. However, considering that copper seems to just suck up the heat, I'm not sure it would be a good test considering that I'll actually be joining a 4' length to a 6' length. Your 185 amp TIG might be a bit light for the task at hand. But don't get in a hurry with preheat. Even insulated, it'll "suck up the heat" until you have all of the copper within some distance hot -- which will be never if it isn't insulated. Bulk thermal conductivity of copper is 5X that of steel. Resistance is resistivity * length / area so a bar of given length and cross section will have 1/25th the thermal resistance of a same-size bar of steel. (I missed that first go, Jon). That suggests (as Jon did) that you'll need to insulate for some length, perhaps the whole bar. If sufficiently insulated, then the conductivity doesn't matter. With heat input, the bar will continue to rise in temperature until heat loss rate = heat input rate. If you insulate for enough length, then *once preheated* it shouldn't be appreciably different than welding a same-size bar of steel -- perhaps easier, given the lower melting temp. Once adjacent copper is hot, its ability to "suck heat" is limited. However, it may take a while to pour enough heat in to get the part of the bar inside the blanket hot enough to proceed with welding. The foregoing assumes that the insulation contains heat considerably better (25 times better) than a bar exposed to free air. I don't know if that's a reasonable assumption for an inch or two of ceramic blanket, but it might be worth a try. As said before, I'd preheat with O/A or oxypropane (lower temp but more heat) so as not to run into the dutycycle limit of your welder. I like the end cap idea, but not sure how I would fabricate those. I can always screw on gussetts to the bottom since there will be a copper panel on the lower portion of the gate that would hide the gussets. However, gussets on top would be ugly. When/if I finish this, is this the kind of thing people would like to see in the drop box? By all means, please do! |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
wrote in message oups.com... Hi Aaron, Andy is right. Brazing (not brazed) is the best that you can use. I suggest you use AWS - Bag-1 Silver Brazing Alloy CD 45. it would cost $1 in USA. For more info on How to do Heating and Brazing of Copper with CD 45 http://www.brazing.com/techguide/pro...er_welding.asp Austri Basinillo (Philippines) I agree also. Brazing is the way to go. B.H. http://www.totalprocessservice.com/ |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
I brazed some 0.5 inch round rod, used my oxyacetylene torch. since I
did not have a regular rosebud, I used the cutting tip. It worked. Even a number 4 welding tip was too small. Copper just sucks the heat away. By the way, I often TIG weld 0.040 inch copper sheet, usually set the TIG welder at 90 amps, so it would take lots of current, and probably preheat, to weld 0.5 inch thick copper. I like the suggestions for preheat and insulate, but I have no experience with that approach. richard woodworker88 wrote: Do you have a rosebud tip for your oxyacetylene outfit? It generally works much better that a regular welding tip for preheating. Even if you gas braze, you could probably preheat with the rosebud, quickly swap tips, and fire up the actual torch tip. The rosebud that I am familiar with is an entire section like a cutting torch attachment and not just a tip, although they may make a tip attachment also. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Don Foreman wrote: On 20 Oct 2005 15:30:16 -0700, " wrote: Hello Wayne, Thanks for the suggestions. I really am using 100% copper (Alloy 110). I already figured out the insulating bit when I made the hinges. When I was welding the hinges on the metal table, I couldn't get a puddle. When I put the hinge in a little cave of fire bricks, I was able to get a puddle. I can try welding two 1' sections of the bar. However, considering that copper seems to just suck up the heat, I'm not sure it would be a good test considering that I'll actually be joining a 4' length to a 6' length. Your 185 amp TIG might be a bit light for the task at hand. But don't get in a hurry with preheat. Even insulated, it'll "suck up the heat" until you have all of the copper within some distance hot -- which will be never if it isn't insulated. Bulk thermal conductivity of copper is 5X that of steel. Resistance is resistivity * length / area so a bar of given length and cross section will have 1/25th the thermal resistance of a same-size bar of steel. (I missed that first go, Jon). That suggests (as Jon did) that you'll need to insulate for some length, perhaps the whole bar. If sufficiently insulated, then the conductivity doesn't matter. This has been bothering me since we started this discussion. I have this image in my head of Aaron K. getting this thing half built, and it is going slower and slower as the pieces are assembled. Finally he gets to a point where he's going to need every Oxy/Acetylene torch in the entire county all at once to do the preheating! The only other alternative is to do the entire job while sitting inside a furnace! That's what furnace brazing is for. Maybe I'm overstating the heat loss problems here, I don't have a clear idea how many cross members there are. If this thing is a square frame with vertical bars, and no other members, maybe it can be built, but it may not support its own weight. If this is for a person to pass through, that may not be much of a concern. If it is to span a driveway, I really have doubts. Either way, if it has a few more horizontal bars of the .5 x 1" size across the middle of the gate, it is going to get messy as the joints are brazed and the number of heat paths increase. Jon |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
You might want to look into MAPP or Propylene. It is a LOT cheaper
than Acetylene. It is sold in moderate-pressure bottles filled with liquid. So, you get many times more fuel in the same size cylinder, due to the liquid and the lack of packing needed to keep acetylene safe. It works great for brazing. Jon wrote: Make that a 75 CuFt acetylene tank... Only reason I mention this is that I'm not sure I can use a #3 or higher tip with that small of a tank. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:18:11 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Your 185 amp TIG might be a bit light for the task at hand. But don't get in a hurry with preheat. Even insulated, it'll "suck up the heat" until you have all of the copper within some distance hot -- which will be never if it isn't insulated. Bulk thermal conductivity of copper is 5X that of steel. Resistance is resistivity * length / area so a bar of given length and cross section will have 1/25th the thermal resistance of a same-size bar of steel. (I missed that first go, Jon). That suggests (as Jon did) that you'll need to insulate for some length, perhaps the whole bar. If sufficiently insulated, then the conductivity doesn't matter. This has been bothering me since we started this discussion. I have this image in my head of Aaron K. getting this thing half built, and it is going slower and slower as the pieces are assembled. Finally he gets to a point where he's going to need every Oxy/Acetylene torch in the entire county all at once to do the preheating! The only other alternative is to do the entire job while sitting inside a furnace! That's what furnace brazing is for. Maybe I'm overstating the heat loss problems here, I don't have a clear idea how many cross members there are. If this thing is a square frame with vertical bars, and no other members, maybe it can be built, but it may not support its own weight. If this is for a person to pass through, that may not be much of a concern. If it is to span a driveway, I really have doubts. Either way, if it has a few more horizontal bars of the .5 x 1" size across the middle of the gate, it is going to get messy as the joints are brazed and the number of heat paths increase. Jon I agree, if the whole thing were made of heavy stock like that it would eventually become a humongous radiator. I had the (perhaps erronious) impression that most of the stock would be considerably smaller, just the outer frame was the heavy stuff. |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
I noticed that there are actually phosphor bronze electrodes for SMAW.
According to the datasheet (http://tinyurl.com/dhx5u), these rods could be used to weld copper. Has anyone used these? In any case, I'm sure I would have to buy a minimum of 10lb and I don't need that much. I think I'm going to try brazing, though. I have some Stay-Silv 56 from another project. Would that be a good alloy? Or should I use their phosphor copper alloy? I guess one would use the phosphor copper for better color matching? However, using the staysilv 56, I would only have to get the copper to 1200F instead of 1400F. If I braze the copper bars, would a mitre joint be the appropriate joint? It seems there would be more surface area than a butt joint, but it still seems like there should be more of a mechanical fitup for brazing. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
I'm beginning to think I got in way over my head on this one. The gate
was supposed to look something like this: +--------------------------+ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | +--+--+---+---+---+---+--+-+ |**************************| |**************************| |**************************| |**************************| +--------------------------+ with the bottom portion a copper panel attached with brass rivets. So there would be three horizontal members and two verticals. The spikes in the center are .5"x.5". As far as sagging, I figured if the bottom panel was tightly attached, it would add some rigidity to the gate. I could use the copper for some other projects. I'm thinking now that this project just isn't going to work with the tools I have. Thanks for all of the insight and help. -Aaron |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
On 21 Oct 2005 17:43:16 -0700, wrote:
I noticed that there are actually phosphor bronze electrodes for SMAW. According to the datasheet (http://tinyurl.com/dhx5u), these rods could be used to weld copper. Has anyone used these? In any case, I'm sure I would have to buy a minimum of 10lb and I don't need that much. I think I'm going to try brazing, though. I have some Stay-Silv 56 from another project. Would that be a good alloy? Or should I use their phosphor copper alloy? I guess one would use the phosphor copper for better color matching? However, using the staysilv 56, I would only have to get the copper to 1200F instead of 1400F. If I braze the copper bars, would a mitre joint be the appropriate joint? It seems there would be more surface area than a butt joint, but it still seems like there should be more of a mechanical fitup for brazing. I think that a lap joint would be the best joint for brazing. Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
|
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
I did some brazing a few weeks ago - been a long time - and long re-learning...
It was on copper sheet - 32oz and 64oz - 110 copper - 99.99999% IIRC. It was a rough go - using lots of oxy on it. It was copper to copper with bronze filler and a small torch. What I found was - used some borax type flux that was around the filler - but what did the trick - paint the area with electronic flux - then braze on top of it. Get a nice puddle - and naturally alloy - then add the item that needed to be added. This was while it was hot and fluxed. The white flux around the filler worked to a lessor extent but worked only in protected air space - no air flow. Copper was a pain in the neck. I did the exact same thing with the sheet of steel and the add on part still copper pipe. Beautiful flowing glob - and adding the copper, it froze the top, but adding heat, it flowed around both nicely. I think the real trick is this : Must get the brazing material to whet on the surface and flow. Once it is on one then the other is the job. Might be best to do two jobs and then heat them together. Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Wayne Cook wrote: On 21 Oct 2005 17:43:16 -0700, wrote: I noticed that there are actually phosphor bronze electrodes for SMAW. According to the datasheet (http://tinyurl.com/dhx5u), these rods could be used to weld copper. Has anyone used these? In any case, I'm sure I would have to buy a minimum of 10lb and I don't need that much. I think I'm going to try brazing, though. I have some Stay-Silv 56 from another project. Would that be a good alloy? Or should I use their phosphor copper alloy? I guess one would use the phosphor copper for better color matching? However, using the staysilv 56, I would only have to get the copper to 1200F instead of 1400F. If I braze the copper bars, would a mitre joint be the appropriate joint? It seems there would be more surface area than a butt joint, but it still seems like there should be more of a mechanical fitup for brazing. I think that a lap joint would be the best joint for brazing. Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:37:23 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Keep us informed, some info on what turns up is always useful when trying to advise on unusual projects like this. Jon Yeah, I'm curious too. If I had some chunks of copper I'd have tried it -- have the blanket and TIG, but no copper. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
I would not give up without thinking about it a little more. I know
you have the design already done and approved, but do the spikes have to be square? I am thinking 1/2 inch copper pipe with 1/2 inch steel rod inside for the spikes. And a pointy copper arrow head added to the top afterwards. If it really has to be square, then make a tapered steel piece and pull it through either 1/2 or 3/4 copper pipe. Obviously this will take some experimentation. But I think it could be done. Start with copper pipe that is longer than you need and braze on at one end something to hold it. Use 1/4 inch steel cable and a come-a-long to do the pulling. You may have to make several square tapered steel pieces of increasing size and anneal the copper pipe after each pass. And of course use lube. I can see you now doing this between two trees. If you can make square copper tubing, then you can use two of them brazed together ( or welded ) to make your 1/2 by 1 rectangular bit. Or if you can use rounded pieces then two copper pipes side by side or spaced so the " spikes can fit between. Whitman college in Walla Walla, WA has some gates made of copper pipe that are attractive. As I remember they are of quite a bit bigger pipe and so probably don't have the steel inside. Dan |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
" wrote:
.... I am thinking 1/2 inch copper pipe with 1/2 inch steel rod inside for the spikes. .... If it really has to be square, then make a tapered steel piece and pull it through either 1/2 or 3/4 copper pipe. Obviously this will take some experimentation. But I think it could be done. Start with copper pipe that is longer than you need and braze on at one end something to hold it. Use 1/4 inch steel cable and a come-a-long to do the pulling. You may have to make several square tapered steel pieces of increasing size and anneal the copper pipe after each pass. .... I think pulling the pipe through two sets of rollers (one set vertical, one set horizontal) would work better than using the interior square mandrels you suggest. I don't have a good size chart handy for copper pipe, but imagine that 1/2" type M copper pipe is 0.625" OD and 0.569" ID. So the inner periphery would be 1.788", and the outer 1.963", which would give an inner width of 0.447" and outside width of 0.491". Half-inch rod wouldn't fit inside, but 7/16" would. Or perhaps use 4 sets of rollers angled at 45 degree intervals, and roll an octagonal shape with .5" steel rod already inside. -jiw |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
Last night I did a little experimenting. 3/4 inch copper pipe will
square up to fit over 1/2 inch square steel tubing. I just beveled the end of a piece of 1/2 square tubing. Annealed the copper by heating it dull red and then after it cooled used a dead blow mallet to square it a bit as I pushed the steel tubing inside. I only did a short piece, but it was pretty easy. I agree rollers would be the ticket, but not sure it would be worth the trouble for less than 100 feet of squared up pipe. Dan |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
So say I wanted to squaring a 4 foot section of pipe, what would be the
best way to heat the entire section? Hmmm, I guess annealing 1' sections and then welding them together would be doable, although time consuming. I just got off the phone with Weld Mold. They make SMAW electrodes for tough pitch copper and their technical person seems to think it would be fairly easy to weld the copper bar using their 4333 electrode with a pre-heat of around 500 degrees. So if brazing doesn't work, I might just try their rod. I'm feeling pretty confident that I can get this all worked out. I'll probably start working on this project in the next two weeks and will give a status report then. |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Brazing or welding thick copper?
To anneal copper you just heat it to dull red and let it cool or quench
it. The rate of cooling makes no difference. The only way to harden copper is to work harden it. So I would anneal the whole length of pipe. You don't have to get it all red hot at the same time. Just start at one end and get that red hot and work your way down the pipe. As you square it, the copper will be work hardend. But only the part that you have done something to work harden it. Using a mallet works, but the square copper tubing shows that it was hand done. It does not have factory looking flatness. Could be a good thing or a bad thing. Depends on the look you are trying to achieve. Stop by Home Depot, Lowes or wherever and get a ten foot length of 3/4 copper pipe and try a couple of experiments. Copper pipe is not too expensive. Dan |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Brazing VS Soldering copper gas pipes | Home Repair | |||
Is burning copper dangerous | Home Repair | |||
welding positioner -- copper bonding, welded threads .. pix | Metalworking | |||
Copper pipe sizing. Is bigger better? | Home Repair | |||
Purity of copper when you melt it | Metalworking |