On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:52:31 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...

"K. Lance" wrote in message
...

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...
I have seen it listed from $ 600,000 to $ 1.2 million. Not sure if
the
higher price would include an atomic warhead or if that is just the
high
expolosive version.

Try eBay or Craig's List, I've seen them on there for half the cost.



I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. If China for any reason had to go to
war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to make
weapons. Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and special "carrier
killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially indefensible against.
They're able to do it using former Soviet weapons designers and because
they
have mass manufacturing know-how (they got from us!) and cheap labor. Our
military may not be ready to face a force that can seriously hurt it -
we've
been up to our necks fighting goat-herders and suicide bombers, not a
credible national military force. Especially one that wants to prove it
deserves a place at the table of world powers. Taiwan is where you can
expect WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's like Libya, they
may feel the time may never be better to assert control over Taiwan by
military force.

--
Bobby G.



I agree. China has the population and could crank out lots of war materials
if they need to.

If it really comes to WW3 our carrirers will not be worth much. A nuke
exploded within a couple of miles will take them out. What does China call
their anti ship missle, a Silkworm ? Anyway if they launch 6 or 8 at a
time,the carrier does not stand much chance even without a nuke.

That's not the point of a carrier.

That is
what hapened to Germany in ww2. They had a superior tank, but the US would
send 5 of the Shermans after one. Usually lost 3 or 4 to get each German
tank.

Yes, we could make eight or ten Shermans for every tank the Germans could
make.

I think part of the Vietnam problem was we did not really want China to get
involved and that was close to 40 years ago.

China and the USSR weren't exactly best buddies, at the time.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:39:45 -0700, "DGDevin" wrote:



"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
om...

A lot of it is availability. Nobody gets upset about supermarket
redlining.

Some folks do, I recently saw a news story about how few supermarkets are
located in the poor parts of Detroit, it's a fraction of how many there
would normally be in an area with that population. The result is less
availability of healthy foods to the people who live in those areas, and
various activists and politicians are trying to lure more stores into
servicing those areas.

Ever wonder why?

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:58:46 -0500, Jim Yanik wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 09:36:44 -0400, LSMFT wrote:

LSMFT wrote:
mm wrote:
OT What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

They keep saying a million dollars, or a little less, but does that
include amortizing billions of dollars of development costs?

What is the marginal cost of another missile?

It's hard to believe anything costs a million dollars after there
is an assembly line of sorts.

Yes, millions but you can bet the corporation that makes them hides
all it's profit in a dummy store front in Switzerland to avoid US
Taxes. Just like hundreds even thousands of corporations now. Yes,
GE, GM, Phizer and all the drug companies, Google, IBM, all the big
ones.


By the way, that amounts to 1.3 TRILLION! a year the government don't
get. Now you wonder why the economy is bad and there are no jobs?

Why do you believe the US government is should get paid a dime on
money made elsewhere that has already been taxed where it was earned?


I bet Comrade Obama and all his rich pals hide their money where they don't
have to pay a lot of taxes on it. Trusts,offshore accounts,other dodges.
Heck,half of Comrade Obama's advisors didn't even pay their taxes.

How much in back taxes do federal employees owe?

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...

"K. Lance" wrote in message
...

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...
I have seen it listed from $ 600,000 to $ 1.2 million. Not sure if
the
higher price would include an atomic warhead or if that is just the
high
expolosive version.

Try eBay or Craig's List, I've seen them on there for half the cost.



I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. If China for any reason had to go to
war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to make
weapons. Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and special "carrier
killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially indefensible against.
They're able to do it using former Soviet weapons designers and because
they
have mass manufacturing know-how (they got from us!) and cheap labor. Our
military may not be ready to face a force that can seriously hurt it -
we've
been up to our necks fighting goat-herders and suicide bombers, not a
credible national military force. Especially one that wants to prove it
deserves a place at the table of world powers. Taiwan is where you can
expect WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's like Libya, they
may feel the time may never be better to assert control over Taiwan by
military force.

--
Bobby G.



I agree. China has the population and could crank out lots of war materials
if they need to.

If it really comes to WW3 our carrirers will not be worth much. A nuke
exploded within a couple of miles will take them out. What does China call
their anti ship missle, a Silkworm ? Anyway if they launch 6 or 8 at a
time,the carrier does not stand much chance even without a nuke. That is
what hapened to Germany in ww2. They had a superior tank, but the US would
send 5 of the Shermans after one. Usually lost 3 or 4 to get each German
tank.
I think part of the Vietnam problem was we did not really want China to get
involved and that was close to 40 years ago.

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

I'm a simple man with simple needs. A single million would do me easily,
for the maybe 30 years I have left.

33k/yr? I'm a simple man too, but I'd rather have 10 million.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
"Robert Green" wrote in message
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
"K. Lance" wrote in message
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
stuff snipped
I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. If China for any reason had to go to
war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to make
weapons. Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and special
"carrier
killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially indefensible against.
They're able to do it using former Soviet weapons designers and because
they
have mass manufacturing know-how (they got from us!) and cheap labor.
Our
military may not be ready to face a force that can seriously hurt it -
we've
been up to our necks fighting goat-herders and suicide bombers, not a
credible national military force. Especially one that wants to prove it
deserves a place at the table of world powers. Taiwan is where you can
expect WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's like Libya,
they
may feel the time may never be better to assert control over Taiwan by
military force.

--
Bobby G.



I agree. China has the population and could crank out lots of war
materials
if they need to.

If it really comes to WW3 our carrirers will not be worth much. A nuke
exploded within a couple of miles will take them out. What does China
call
their anti ship missle, a Silkworm ? Anyway if they launch 6 or 8 at a
time,the carrier does not stand much chance even without a nuke. That is
what hapened to Germany in ww2. They had a superior tank, but the US
would
send 5 of the Shermans after one. Usually lost 3 or 4 to get each German
tank.

Precisely. The battles are won by the side that can take the biggest hits
and still fight. That was us in 1945 and it's China in 2011. They might
even come out ahead with a forced population reduction. The Silkworm is
really old technology compared to these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

"The speed of the VA-111 far exceeds that of any standard torpedo currently
fielded by NATO. This speed is a result of supercavitation: the torpedo is,
in effect, flying in a gas bubble created by outward deflection of water by
its specially shaped nose cone and the expansion of gases from its engine.
By keeping water from coming into contact with the surface of the body of
the torpedo, drag is significantly reduced, allowing extremely high speeds.
In effect, the Shkval is an underwater missile."

These supercavitation torpedoes, invented by the Russkies, dropped in a ring
around a carrier group in sufficient numbers or predeployed in clusters as
mines will be all that's needed to erase a US carrier group from the earth.
They can be armed with nuclear warheads, they travel underwater at 250 knots
(some reports say 300!), are cheap to make and very hard to counter.
Everyone in the Pentagon knows this, but they've all got their heads stuck
in the sand the way they did before the last WW when Billy Mitchell tried to
explain how valuable airplanes would be. They court martialed him for his
wisdom.

The carriers are the Navy's pride and joy and are often used by US
Presidents to "project power" in distant locations. The USN will *never*
give them up without a disaster forcing them to. My own estimate after
reading dozens of articles is that in a confrontation with China, we will
lose at least one carrier and perhaps a dozen support ships to the Shkval
and its cousins. I can almost see the video in my head the way I see the
WTC collapse.

China's already shown they can knock out our satelites and those play
heavily in a carrier group's defense against attack by reporting the
appearance and coordinates of missile plumes. China's entire military
strategy seems based on knocking out our carriers and knocking them out
fast. I'm sure they know where every US carrier is every second of every
day. With enough Shkval torpedoes in the water, there's no chance of a huge
ship like a carrier evading all of them. If they have nuke tips, ever a
near miss will end in catastrophe.

I think part of the Vietnam problem was we did not really want China to
get
involved and that was close to 40 years ago.

That was probably a smart decision. My old boss who fought in the Korean
War said he's never seen an enemy as determined, ruthless and fearless as
the Chinese troops sent to reinforce the Koreans.

--
Bobby G.

On 3/29/2011 7:05 PM, Robert Green wrote:
(snip)

ct WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's like Libya,

Okay- I (and Google) give up- what does SOLIC mean?

--
aem sends...

On 3/29/2011 9:08 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:39:45 -0700, wrote:



"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
m...

A lot of it is availability. Nobody gets upset about supermarket
redlining.

Some folks do, I recently saw a news story about how few supermarkets are
located in the poor parts of Detroit, it's a fraction of how many there
would normally be in an area with that population. The result is less
availability of healthy foods to the people who live in those areas, and
various activists and politicians are trying to lure more stores into
servicing those areas.

Ever wonder why?

Lack of available food (hunting, gathering, or sold retail) is one of
the limiters of carrying capacity. Most humans and animals, if they
can't find food nearby, move elsewhere. Once a city gets so bad that the
profits merchants think they can make there are outweighed by the
expenses of doing business there, guess what? They go out of business or
move. 'Food Desert' is the yuppie buzzword for the condition. Various
governmental units and do-gooder groups are trying to bribe/guilt
companies into opening new stores, and a few have made it and are doing
okay for now, but the sad truth is, a lot of these old urban areas never
will come back to life. I feel sorry for the folks that have lived there
fifty years, and don't have the money to leave, or are too scared to
leave familiar surroundings, but pouring tax money into endless
'redevelopment' programs almost never succeeds. It would be kinder to
pay these people to move elsewhere, and probably cheaper. Bank the land,
tear down the buildings that are past sensible repair, clean up the
polluted sites where possible, and put a package together that some
developer may risk money on. One of the few Detroit redevelopment
success stories in last 20 years is a neighborhood where they tore
everything out, including the old streets, and got a developer to build
a modern subdivision. People actually wanted to live there, and the
houses sold well.

--
aem sends...

On 3/29/2011 10:38 PM, Robert Green wrote:

(snip)

Unless the US gets stupid and intervenes in a China invasion of Taiwan,
why would China ever attack us? You don't kill your best customer.

--
aem sends...

wrote in message ...

A lot of it is availability. Nobody gets upset about supermarket
redlining.

Some folks do, I recently saw a news story about how few supermarkets are
located in the poor parts of Detroit, it's a fraction of how many there
would normally be in an area with that population. The result is less
availability of healthy foods to the people who live in those areas, and
various activists and politicians are trying to lure more stores into
servicing those areas.

Ever wonder why?

A bunch of reasons suggest themselves, but I've found that it's never wise
to discount the power of human foolishness.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:06:50 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

I'm a simple man with simple needs. A single million would do me easily,
for the maybe 30 years I have left.

33k/yr? I'm a simple man too, but I'd rather have 10 million.

Ever hear of this new thing called "compound interest"?

On Mar 29, 12:50*am, harry wrote:
On Mar 29, 8:25*am, DD_BobK wrote:









On Mar 28, 9:22*pm, "Steve B" wrote:

"mm" wrote in message

.. .

OT *What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

They keep saying a million dollars, or a little less, but does that
include amortizing billions of dollars of development costs?

What is the marginal cost of another missile?

It's hard to believe anything costs a million dollars after there is
an assembly line of sorts.

Hellfires are $82k per copy. *Don't know about Tomahawk. *That is a larger
surface launched missile, right? *Love watching the Hellfire strikes on
youtube. *Now you see 'em, now you don't.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?www.cabgbypasssurgery.com

Hellfire ~100lbs
Tomahawk ~3000 lbs

Helfire range *~8km
Tomahawk range ~2500km

Based on performance & capacity *..... those Tomahawks look like a
bargain *

But I wouldn't waste one even on heavy armor.

later (current?) procurement cycle supposed to reduce cost by ~50%
thus getting it down to ~ 1/2 million each

Our first 12 production units for the AH-64 Apache 30mm Ammunition
Magazine cost ~$150k each (1982) *by the third production buy (120
units) we'd gotten the price down to $50k each.

Cost reduction is driven by learning curve, value engineering design
changes and lot size increases.

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cost reduction is about increasing profit. *Absolutely nothing to do
with selling price.

Harry-

Wrong again.

We bid these projects & supplied the machinery on a Firm Fixed Price
Basis.

Bids were audited prior to award. Fee (profit) was negotiated base
on bid prices.

If we came came up with cheaper ways to make the item...... the bid
for the "next" buy had to include this cost reductions.

You don't know anything about the bid & procurement process.

Don't let the facts confuse you.

cheers
Bob

On Mar 29, 12:59*pm, "DGDevin" wrote:
"willshak" *wrote in message

m...

Why is it that the most obese people seem to be in the lower income
brackets?

Often because the food they can afford is of poor quality from a nutritional
perspective. *Starch and fat are cheap, fresh fruits and vegetables and so
on are not only more expensive but often hard to come by in poor areas.

That is total BS.....
a vegetarian diet is way cheaper that what poor / obese people often
eat.

Even the markets in the poorest neighborhoods in California have an
abundance of reasonably priced produce.
It's pretty simple, take advantage of "in season" items.

The human animal loves salty crunchy fatty foods....
But in the US these days; food is cheap, exercise is expensive.

The energy equation is out of whack.... too much input, not enough
output.

If you frequent Popeye's, McDonald's, KFC, etc ....you're going to be
unhealthy & fat.

cheers
Bob

In article ,
" wrote:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:06:50 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

I'm a simple man with simple needs. A single million would do me easily,
for the maybe 30 years I have left.

33k/yr? I'm a simple man too, but I'd rather have 10 million.

Ever hear of this new thing called "compound interest"?

Sure, I'm a math guy. Suppose you tell me where to invest money these
days to get anything resembling simple interest, let alone compound
interest. My savings account is earning, uh, 0.05%. And yes, the decimal
place is correct. That's 1/20 of 1%.

Compound interest works when you're 20 and can invest for 40 years at 8%
or better, let's say. It doesn't work so well when you start living off
the principal immediately, and all the reasonable investments are
history.

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
On 3/29/2011 10:38 PM, Robert Green wrote:

(snip)

Unless the US gets stupid and intervenes in a China invasion of Taiwan,
why would China ever attack us? You don't kill your best customer.

You hit the nail on the head. We've made it clear we'll stick our noses in
that very nasty hornet's nest. Look how much Cuba bothers us and then
imagine how much Taiwan bothers China. In some other post I said it
squarely. WWIII will begin over Taiwan.

--
Bobby G.

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
On 3/29/2011 7:05 PM, Robert Green wrote:
(snip)

ct WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's like Libya,

Okay- I (and Google) give up- what does SOLIC mean?

Special Operations/Low Intensity Conflicts - DoD speak for "brush war."

a.. SOLIC - What does SOLIC stand for? Acronyms and abbreviations by ...
Acronym, Definition. SOLIC, Special Operations & Low Intensity Conflict.
SOLIC,
Springs of Life International Christian Centre ...

acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/SOLIC - Cached - Similar

You must have added Libya in your search. It's probably not yet been
branded a SOLIC. Just an odd curiosity that "Springs of Life" chose the
same letters.

--
Bobby G.


--
aem sends...

On 3/29/2011 6:28 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 03:25:28 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 3/29/2011 2:40 AM, harry wrote:
On Mar 29, 3:35 am, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/28/2011 8:18 PM, mm wrote:

OT What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

They keep saying a million dollars, or a little less, but does that
include amortizing billions of dollars of development costs?

What is the marginal cost of another missile?

It's hard to believe anything costs a million dollars after there is
an assembly line of sorts.

The Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4 is a rear mid-engined super car. It is
the most expensive modern car in the world at $2,600,000. Right
off the assembly line of sorts.snicker

TDD

The first law of capitalism is that a thing is worth what people are
prepared to pay for it.
I expect the Chinese make a similar one half price. Or soon will be.
Soon Boeing be moving the production line there anyway. Or Mexico.
The USA has fallen way back on all forms of technology except weapons
because you are warmongering *******s. It's neccesary for wars to be
started constantly in order to sell weapons. Even Obama has fallen
into the trap. He is in the pocket fo the capitalist *******s as was
Bush&co.
Your gov. does not give a toss about you., You did not vote for them.
You got to vote for the limited number of people put in front of you
by lying, cheating capitalist arms manufacturers..
It could be fixed tomorrow but it won't be.

I'll have you know that my parents were married sir! I'm no ******* but
people who know my mother refer to me as SOB which is much more
accurate. ^_^

But it is pretty bad, Duf, when your own mother calls you an SOB. ;-)


"People who know my mother call me that." GEEZ!

TDD

On Mar 29, 3:14*pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
G. Morgan wrote :

mm wrote:

OT *What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

CNN keeps saying 1.4 mil/per.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_di...&tid=1300&ct=2

says $569,000 each.
it doesn't say if that includes warhead.
I doubt it. a nuke WH(TLAM-N) would substantially raise the cost.
I don't believe the conventional WH is going to cost $831K,more than the
Tomahawk itself.



Which is actually pretty cheap compared to sending in manned aircraft.

You don't risk a pilot....
but you usually get the piloted aircraft back and can reuse it.
and you can attack multiple targets,and targets of opportunity.

TLAM is good for high-risk targets.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

But neither do you have to find and train pilots. As you don't have
to carry//support the pilot, the aircraft will be much smaller.

Air wars in the future will be fought with drones/robot planes.
All you need to win is the production line and the best technology/
tactics.
These robot aircraft willbe able to perform high G manouvers that no
human pilot could survive.
They are being designed right now in Europe and, I imagine, America
and Russia.

On Mar 29, 4:47*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 29, 3:40*am, harry wrote:





On Mar 29, 3:35*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 3/28/2011 8:18 PM, mm wrote:

OT *What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

They keep saying a million dollars, or a little less, but does that
include amortizing billions of dollars of development costs?

What is the marginal cost of another missile?

It's hard to believe anything costs a million dollars after there is
an assembly line of sorts.

The Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4 is a rear mid-engined super car. It is
the most expensive modern car in the world at $2,600,000. Right
off the assembly line of sorts. snicker

TDD

The first law of capitalism is that a thing is worth what people are
prepared to pay for it.
I expect the Chinese make a similar one half price. *Or soon will be.
Soon Boeing be moving the production line there anyway. Or Mexico.
The USA has fallen way back on all forms of technology except weapons
because you are warmongering *******s.

So how many high tech wonders of the world origninated and are based
*in the "UK? * Intel? * Microsoft? *Cisco? *AMD? * Boeing? *IBM?
Dell?
HP? * Do you even have one company that produces
computer chips that is British? * Notice I said produces, so that
leaves
out ARM, which is just a modest design firm. * There is one huge UK
*semicondutor plant, owned and operated by Intel, a US company,
*in Ireland.

Unbelievable that you keep bringing this up, after all the times
you've
made an ass of yourself. *Anything else I can help you out with?

*It's neccesary for wars to be
started constantly in order to sell weapons. Even Obama has fallen
into the trap. He is in the pocket fo the capitalist *******s as was
Bush &co.
Your gov. does not give a toss about you., You did not vote for them.
You got to vote for the limited number of people put in front of you
by lying, cheating capitalist arms manufacturers..
It could be fixed tomorrow but it won't be.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You could be fixed tomorrow too. *Hope you get your head cracked
at your next leftist riot over there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All of the above. The technologies they use were invented here in the
UK and Germany. They were stolen/given to you.

On Mar 29, 6:43*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message news:fee86cdf-c014-4775-a7bc-

stuff snipped

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Ch...olitical_views
Heavy going the latter but a clear thinking American.
His books are all printed an published here in the UK. Not allowed in
America.

Nonsense. *I've been reading Noam since college and a course I took in
"transformational grammar." *Name one book you think is banned here. *It's
probably on my bookshelf.

--
Bobby G.

See where it's printed.

On Mar 30, 12:10*am, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:
"K. Lance" wrote in ....

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
om...
I have seen it listed from $ 600,000 to $ 1.2 million. *Not sure if the
higher price would include an atomic warhead or if that is just the high
expolosive version.

Try eBay or Craig's List, I've seen them on there for half the cost.

I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

Having trouble with the nieghbours?

On Mar 30, 12:05*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message

m...

"K. Lance" wrote in message

...



"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
om...
I have seen it listed from $ 600,000 to $ 1.2 million. *Not sure if the
higher price would include an atomic warhead or if that is just the
high
expolosive version.

Try eBay or Craig's List, I've seen them on there for half the cost.

I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. *If China for any reason had to go to war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to make
weapons. *Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and special "carrier
killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially indefensible against.
They're able to do it using former Soviet weapons designers and because they
have mass manufacturing know-how (they got from us!) and cheap labor. *Our
military may not be ready to face a force that can seriously hurt it - we've
been up to our necks fighting goat-herders and suicide bombers, not a
credible national military force. Especially one that wants to prove it
deserves a place at the table of world powers. *Taiwan is where you can
expect WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's like Libya, they
may feel the time may never be better to assert control over Taiwan by
military force.

--
Bobby G.

You are right. China is the one to watch. Militarily and
commercially. However they have their own internal troubles. They
nearly own you now.

On Mar 30, 12:28*am, "
wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 00:50:23 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Mar 29, 8:25 am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Mar 28, 9:22 pm, "Steve B" wrote:

"mm" wrote in message

.. .

OT What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

They keep saying a million dollars, or a little less, but does that
include amortizing billions of dollars of development costs?

What is the marginal cost of another missile?

It's hard to believe anything costs a million dollars after there is
an assembly line of sorts.

Hellfires are $82k per copy. Don't know about Tomahawk. That is a larger
surface launched missile, right? Love watching the Hellfire strikes on
youtube. Now you see 'em, now you don't.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?www.cabgbypasssurgery.com

Hellfire ~100lbs
Tomahawk ~3000 lbs

Helfire range ~8km
Tomahawk range ~2500km

Based on performance & capacity ..... those Tomahawks look like a
bargain

But I wouldn't waste one even on heavy armor.

later (current?) procurement cycle supposed to reduce cost by ~50%
thus getting it down to ~ 1/2 million each

Our first 12 production units for the AH-64 Apache 30mm Ammunition
Magazine cost ~$150k each (1982) by the third production buy (120
units) we'd gotten the price down to $50k each.

Cost reduction is driven by learning curve, value engineering design
changes and lot size increases.

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cost reduction is about increasing profit. *Absolutely nothing to do
with selling price.

I see the clueless Brit is back from his riots.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hello mosquito brain. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :-)

On Mar 30, 2:52*am, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:
"Robert Green" wrote in message

...





"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
om...

"K. Lance" wrote in message
...

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
om...
I have seen it listed from $ 600,000 to $ 1.2 million. *Not sure if
the
higher price would include an atomic warhead or if that is just the
high
expolosive version.

Try eBay or Craig's List, I've seen them on there for half the cost.

I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. *If China for any reason had to go to
war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to make
weapons. *Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and special "carrier
killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially indefensible against.
They're able to do it using former Soviet weapons designers and because
they
have mass manufacturing know-how (they got from us!) and cheap labor. *Our
military may not be ready to face a force that can seriously hurt it -
we've
been up to our necks fighting goat-herders and suicide bombers, not a
credible national military force. Especially one that wants to prove it
deserves a place at the table of world powers. *Taiwan is where you can
expect WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's like Libya, they
may feel the time may never be better to assert control over Taiwan by
military force.

--
Bobby G.

I agree. *China has the population and could crank out lots of war materials
if they need to.

If it really comes to WW3 our carrirers will not be worth much. *A nuke
exploded within a couple of miles will take them out. *What does China call
their anti ship missle, a Silkworm ? *Anyway if they launch 6 or 8 at a
time,the carrier does not stand much chance even without a nuke. *That is
what hapened to Germany in ww2. *They had a superior tank, but the US would
send 5 of the Shermans after one. *Usually lost 3 or 4 to get each German
tank.
I think part of the Vietnam problem was we did not really want China to get
involved and that was close to 40 years ago.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is where MAD comes in. Still relevent.

On 3/29/2011 11:37 PM, DD_BobK wrote:
On Mar 29, 12:59 pm, wrote:
"willshak" wrote in message

m...

Why is it that the most obese people seem to be in the lower income
brackets?

Often because the food they can afford is of poor quality from a nutritional
perspective. Starch and fat are cheap, fresh fruits and vegetables and so
on are not only more expensive but often hard to come by in poor areas.

That is total BS.....
a vegetarian diet is way cheaper that what poor / obese people often
eat.

Even the markets in the poorest neighborhoods in California have an
abundance of reasonably priced produce.
It's pretty simple, take advantage of "in season" items.

The human animal loves salty crunchy fatty foods....
But in the US these days; food is cheap, exercise is expensive.

The energy equation is out of whack.... too much input, not enough
output.

If you frequent Popeye's, McDonald's, KFC, etc ....you're going to be
unhealthy& fat.

cheers
Bob

For me exercise is work and pain medication is expensive. :-(

TDD

On Mar 30, 2:04*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote innews:d6udnewOqY1I4w_QnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@earthlink. com:







"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
news:RNednQZZ1JxXxQ_QnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@earthlink. com...

"K. Lance" wrote in message
...

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
om...
I have seen it listed from $ 600,000 to $ 1.2 million. *Not sure
if the
higher price would include an atomic warhead or if that is just
the
high
expolosive version.

Try eBay or Craig's List, I've seen them on there for half the
cost.

I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. *If China for any reason had to go
to war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to
make weapons. *Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and
special "carrier killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially
indefensible against. They're able to do it using former Soviet
weapons designers and because they
have mass manufacturing know-how (they got from us!) and cheap labor.
*Our military may not be ready to face a force that can seriously
hurt it - we've
been up to our necks fighting goat-herders and suicide bombers, not a
credible national military force. Especially one that wants to prove
it deserves a place at the table of world powers. *Taiwan is where
you can expect WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's
like Libya, they may feel the time may never be better to assert
control over Taiwan by military force.

--
Bobby G.

I agree. *China has the population and could crank out lots of war
materials if they need to.

If it really comes to WW3 our carrirers will not be worth much. *A
nuke exploded within a couple of miles will take them out. *What does
China call their anti ship missle, a Silkworm ? *Anyway if they launch
6 or 8 at a time,the carrier does not stand much chance even without a
nuke. *That is what hapened to Germany in ww2. *They had a superior
tank, but the US would send 5 of the Shermans after one. *Usually lost
3 or 4 to get each German tank.
I think part of the Vietnam problem was we did not really want China
to get involved and that was close to 40 years ago.

first they have to FIND the carriers,(the sea is a very large place) then
get through the AEGIS ships.
Silkworms are OLD tech,easy to defeat.
the Sunburn's are faster and harder to defeat,but still doable.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Tch. They have their own satellites. They know the postion of all
navies at all times you can bet. They only need fear submarine
launched weapons.

On Mar 30, 3:38*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
"Robert Green" wrote in message
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
"K. Lance" wrote in message
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
stuff snipped
I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. *If China for any reason had to go to
war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to make
weapons. *Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and special
"carrier
killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially indefensible against.

On 3/30/2011 3:29 AM, harry wrote:
On Mar 29, 3:14 pm, Jim wrote:
G. wrote :

wrote:

OT What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

CNN keeps saying 1.4 mil/per.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_di...&tid=1300&ct=2

says $569,000 each.
it doesn't say if that includes warhead.
I doubt it. a nuke WH(TLAM-N) would substantially raise the cost.
I don't believe the conventional WH is going to cost $831K,more than the
Tomahawk itself.



Which is actually pretty cheap compared to sending in manned aircraft.

You don't risk a pilot....
but you usually get the piloted aircraft back and can reuse it.
and you can attack multiple targets,and targets of opportunity.

TLAM is good for high-risk targets.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

But neither do you have to find and train pilots. As you don't have
to carry//support the pilot, the aircraft will be much smaller.

Air wars in the future will be fought with drones/robot planes.
All you need to win is the production line and the best technology/
tactics.
These robot aircraft willbe able to perform high G manouvers that no
human pilot could survive.
They are being designed right now in Europe and, I imagine, America
and Russia.

Lots of tongue wagging about remotely piloted fighter aircraft in all
the technology TV programs and much has been written in science and
technology publications too. I imagine it will be a lot like the F-117
Nighthawk Stealth Fighter that flew for years before it was revealed.
Suddenly we will find out that new tech RPV's have been secretly used
in The Middle East to go after terrorists and take down other fighters.

TDD

On Mar 30, 4:35*am, aemeijers wrote:
On 3/29/2011 9:08 PM, wrote:





On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:39:45 -0700, *wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" *wrote in message
news:Qa6dnbgky9QLoA_QnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@earthlink. com...

A lot of it is availability. Nobody gets upset about supermarket
redlining.

Some folks do, I recently saw a news story about how few supermarkets are
located in the poor parts of Detroit, it's a fraction of how many there
would normally be in an area with that population. *The result is less
availability of healthy foods to the people who live in those areas, and
various activists and politicians are trying to lure more stores into
servicing those areas.

Ever wonder why?

Lack of available food (hunting, gathering, or sold retail) is one of
the limiters of carrying capacity. Most humans and animals, if they
can't find food nearby, move elsewhere. Once a city gets so bad that the
profits merchants think they can make there are outweighed by the
expenses of doing business there, guess what? They go out of business or
move. 'Food Desert' is the yuppie buzzword for the condition. *Various
governmental units and do-gooder groups are trying to bribe/guilt
companies into opening new stores, and a few have made it and are doing
okay for now, but the sad truth is, a lot of these old urban areas never
will come back to life. I feel sorry for the folks that have lived there
fifty years, and don't have the money to leave, or are too scared to
leave familiar surroundings, but pouring tax money into endless
'redevelopment' programs almost never succeeds. It would be kinder to
pay these people to move elsewhere, and probably cheaper. Bank the land,
tear down the buildings that are past sensible repair, clean up the
polluted sites where possible, and put a package together that some
developer may risk money on. One of the few Detroit redevelopment
success stories in last 20 years is a neighborhood where they tore
everything out, including the old streets, and got a developer to build
a modern subdivision. People actually wanted to live there, and the
houses sold well.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Probably true. We had the same experience after WW2 when vast areas
were semi-destroyed by bombing. Howevert he people are the problem.
How does one re-invent their lives? Thousands were moved but the
places they were shifted to became ********s in no time.
There are people out there ,if you put themin Buckingham Palace,
they'd turn it into a ******** in a day.
It has to start with education of the kids (parents are copmplete no-
hopers.). Another huge problem.
The poor are always with us as someone said.

On Mar 30, 5:11*am, "
wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:06:50 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

I'm a simple man with simple needs. A single million would do me easily,
for the maybe 30 years I have left.

33k/yr? I'm a simple man too, but I'd rather have 10 million.

Ever hear of this new thing called "compound interest"?

It has disappeared over here. And inflation is rising.

On Mar 30, 5:16*am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Mar 29, 12:50*am, harry wrote:





On Mar 29, 8:25*am, DD_BobK wrote:

On Mar 28, 9:22*pm, "Steve B" wrote:

"mm" wrote in message

.. .

OT *What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

They keep saying a million dollars, or a little less, but does that
include amortizing billions of dollars of development costs?

What is the marginal cost of another missile?

It's hard to believe anything costs a million dollars after there is
an assembly line of sorts.

Hellfires are $82k per copy. *Don't know about Tomahawk. *That is a larger
surface launched missile, right? *Love watching the Hellfire strikes on
youtube. *Now you see 'em, now you don't.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?www.cabgbypasssurgery.com

Hellfire ~100lbs
Tomahawk ~3000 lbs

Helfire range *~8km
Tomahawk range ~2500km

Based on performance & capacity *..... those Tomahawks look like a
bargain *

But I wouldn't waste one even on heavy armor.

later (current?) procurement cycle supposed to reduce cost by ~50%
thus getting it down to ~ 1/2 million each

Our first 12 production units for the AH-64 Apache 30mm Ammunition
Magazine cost ~$150k each (1982) *by the third production buy (120
units) we'd gotten the price down to $50k each.

Cost reduction is driven by learning curve, value engineering design
changes and lot size increases.

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cost reduction is about increasing profit. *Absolutely nothing to do
with selling price.

Harry-

Wrong again. *

We bid these projects & supplied the machinery on a Firm Fixed Price
Basis.

Bids were audited prior to award. * Fee (profit) was negotiated base
on bid prices.

If we came came up with cheaper ways to make the item...... the bid
for the "next" buy had to include this cost reductions.

You don't know anything about the bid & procurement process.

Don't let the facts confuse you.

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you say exactly confirms what I said. After the contract is
secured, cost savings increase the profits.
Best not to mention any possible savings before the bid eh?

And if there are any changes to the specification, hey, you better
look out, more opportunities for profit once the buyer is commited.

The main reason for improvements (real or imaginary), is to boost
profits after the customer can't escape without vast losses. These
"improvements" are pre-known by the manufacturer, ready to pull out of
the bag like magic. A whole line of them, planned out for years
ahead.

This is aside to what can be done by creative accounting.

That's just the legal stuff too.
There is also the strong possibilty that the "competitors" are in
cahoots behind the scenes. Pre-deciding which work they want etc.

As it's "only" taxpayer's money, no-one is worrying too much.

There is endless scope. The pen is mightier than the lathe when it
comes to creating money.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 09:36:44 -0400, wrote:

LSMFT wrote:
mm wrote:
OT What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

They keep saying a million dollars, or a little less, but does that
include amortizing billions of dollars of development costs?

What is the marginal cost of another missile?

It's hard to believe anything costs a million dollars after there is
an assembly line of sorts.

Yes, millions but you can bet the corporation that makes them hides all
it's profit in a dummy store front in Switzerland to avoid US Taxes.
Just like hundreds even thousands of corporations now. Yes, GE, GM,
Phizer and all the drug companies, Google, IBM, all the big ones.


By the way, that amounts to 1.3 TRILLION! a year the government don't
get. Now you wonder why the economy is bad and there are no jobs?

Why do you believe the US government is should get paid a dime on money made
elsewhere that has already been taxed where it was earned?

They made it here it should be taxed here.

--
All is as it is.

On Mar 29, 10:38*pm, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
"Robert Green" wrote in message
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
"K. Lance" wrote in message
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
stuff snipped
I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. *If China for any reason had to go to
war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to make
weapons. *Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and special
"carrier
killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially indefensible against.

In article ,
"DGDevin" wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
m...

A lot of it is availability. Nobody gets upset about supermarket
redlining.

Some folks do, I recently saw a news story about how few supermarkets are
located in the poor parts of Detroit, it's a fraction of how many there
would normally be in an area with that population. The result is less
availability of healthy foods to the people who live in those areas, and
various activists and politicians are trying to lure more stores into
servicing those areas.

There isn't a Community RE-Grocery Act in place, now is there?

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

Books are disappearing all over the planet without any help from Montag &
crew. Ray had the right idea, just the wrong mechanism. The internet will
kill the printed book, not ignition at 451F.

Over the last decade or so I come to enjoy the irony of the first
video being seen on MTV being "Video killed the Radio Star."

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

In article
,
Smitty Two wrote:


Compound interest works when you're 20 and can invest for 40 years at 8%
or better, let's say. It doesn't work so well when you start living off
the principal immediately, and all the reasonable investments are
history.

I'm getting around 4% on my bonds ( staying under 4 years and AA or
better). I have quite a few stocks that are paying me dividends better
than 5% (some I have had a long time, have actually gone up to where I
am making almost 10% on my original investment). THere is still no 20
year period where the S&P has failed to earn less than 7% compounded. I
plan to live until 90 or so, so I still have way more than 20 years. The
real problem with the Geezers is not outliving your money and to make
sure you aren't losing much to inflation.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

"K. Lance" wrote in :


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...

"mm" wrote in message
...
OT What does a Tomohawk missile really cost?

They keep saying a million dollars, or a little less, but does that
include amortizing billions of dollars of development costs?

What is the marginal cost of another missile?

It's hard to believe anything costs a million dollars after there is
an assembly line of sorts.

I have seen it listed from $ 600,000 to $ 1.2 million. Not sure if
the higher price would include an atomic warhead or if that is just
the high expolosive version.

Try eBay or Craig's List, I've seen them on there for half the cost.




There was a HF Super Coupon for one. I think it expired though. A 20% off
coupon might be the better deal though.

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:39:45 -0700, "DGDevin"
wrote:



"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
news:Qa6dnbgky9QLoA_QnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@earthlink. com...

A lot of it is availability. Nobody gets upset about supermarket
redlining.

Some folks do, I recently saw a news story about how few supermarkets
are located in the poor parts of Detroit, it's a fraction of how many
there would normally be in an area with that population. The result
is less availability of healthy foods to the people who live in those
areas, and various activists and politicians are trying to lure more
stores into servicing those areas.

Ever wonder why?


high crime and good chance of riots that could destroy yout store.
there's no profit when you're getting robbed frequently,and a heck of a big
risk to your life.

black people are their own worst enemy.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
m:


"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...

"K. Lance" wrote in message
...

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...
I have seen it listed from $ 600,000 to $ 1.2 million. Not sure
if the
higher price would include an atomic warhead or if that is just
the
high
expolosive version.

Try eBay or Craig's List, I've seen them on there for half the
cost.



I am saving my boxtops for one.
Either that or order one from China.

That's not as funny as you think. If China for any reason had to go
to war,
they have tremendous manufacturing capacity (as we had in WWII) to
make weapons. Right now they're making anti-ship missiles and
special "carrier killer" torpedoes in amounts that are essentially
indefensible against. They're able to do it using former Soviet
weapons designers and because they
have mass manufacturing know-how (they got from us!) and cheap labor.
Our military may not be ready to face a force that can seriously
hurt it - we've
been up to our necks fighting goat-herders and suicide bombers, not a
credible national military force. Especially one that wants to prove
it deserves a place at the table of world powers. Taiwan is where
you can expect WWIII to start, and if we open up any more SOLIC's
like Libya, they may feel the time may never be better to assert
control over Taiwan by military force.

--
Bobby G.



I agree. China has the population and could crank out lots of war
materials if they need to.

If it really comes to WW3 our carrirers will not be worth much. A
nuke exploded within a couple of miles will take them out. What does
China call their anti ship missle, a Silkworm ? Anyway if they launch
6 or 8 at a time,the carrier does not stand much chance even without a
nuke. That is what hapened to Germany in ww2. They had a superior
tank, but the US would send 5 of the Shermans after one. Usually lost
3 or 4 to get each German tank.
I think part of the Vietnam problem was we did not really want China
to get involved and that was close to 40 years ago.




first they have to FIND the carriers,(the sea is a very large place) then
get through the AEGIS ships.
Silkworms are OLD tech,easy to defeat.
the Sunburn's are faster and harder to defeat,but still doable.

Yeah, China probably never heard of satellites, so they are clueless where
the carriers are. Thanks, but you made my day!

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 19:06:50 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

I'm a simple man with simple needs. A single million would do me
easily, for the maybe 30 years I have left.

33k/yr? I'm a simple man too, but I'd rather have 10 million.

Ever hear of this new thing called "compound interest"?


would your interest accumulate the same as or more than what you take out
each year to live on,for a million bucks initially?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com