Jon Danniken wrote:
bud-- wrote:
A lot of people here work with electric motors - no one seems to know
what SPL is. Jon might but he isn't saying much.

The two local motor rewinders that I called yesterday told me it stood for
"special", as in it is a particular type of rating used in motors for
specific applications, namely compressors.

Much more appropriately I saw someone call it "Someone's Probably Lying".


I'm sure you could contact Magnetek/Century (the manufacturer of the motor
on my compressor) for a more specific answer.

Now apparently owned by AO Smith.
IMHO their website sucks. I looked earlier for info on SPL and couldn't
find anything, including no phone number.


I agree with everyone but Jon that it is an excuse to lie.

The only "lie" would be calling a 3HP SPL (15A/115V) motor a 3HP motor,
which may have been the case in the past with less than reputable merchants
such as Sears/Craftsman, among others. To some of the participants on this
newsgroup, that is an excuse to consider legitimate motor manufacturers
guilty of the same type of deception, even when they properly label their
products.

There was a class action lawsuit about 5 years ago about fraudulent HP
ratings on compressors/motors. The manufacturers lost and were supposed
to use real HP ratings. You have the old fraudulent rating hidden behind
"SPL". Your 3HP rating is a lie intended to deceive. The same as in
class action lawsuit (with a minor cover your ass).

gfretwell wrote "if it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP." He is
right. Yours works because it is not a 3HP motor. Because of past, and
apparently current, fraud about everyone here has said ignore HP ratings.


I believe the phrase "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like
a nail" is appropriate here.


Is there any reason why the "real" HP is not used?
How is a 3HP SPL motor different from a motor with a real HP rating?
What possible reason is there to use "SPL"?

I can think of one reason.
It is the same fraud as in the class action lawsuit about 5 years ago,
with a minor cover-your-ass.

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:
gfretwell wrote "if it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP." He is
right. Yours works because it is not a 3HP motor. Because of past, and
apparently current, fraud about everyone here has said ignore HP
ratings.

Yes, the motor on my compressor is not a 3HP motor, it is a 3HP SPL 15A/115V
motor. That's about 2.3HP Continuous, which is more than the 1HP you and
"gfretwell" claim is the absolute limit for air compressors.

Jon

On Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:55:13 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

bud-- wrote:
gfretwell wrote "if it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP." He is
right. Yours works because it is not a 3HP motor. Because of past, and
apparently current, fraud about everyone here has said ignore HP
ratings.

Yes, the motor on my compressor is not a 3HP motor, it is a 3HP SPL 15A/115V
motor. That's about 2.3HP Continuous, which is more than the 1HP you and
"gfretwell" claim is the absolute limit for air compressors.

A 100% efficient motor. I want one of them!

On 02/08/2011 03:54 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
bud-- wrote:
A lot of people here work with electric motors - no one seems to know
what SPL is. Jon might but he isn't saying much.

The two local motor rewinders that I called yesterday told me it stood for
"special", as in it is a particular type of rating used in motors for
specific applications, namely compressors.

I'm sure you could contact Magnetek/Century (the manufacturer of the motor
on my compressor) for a more specific answer.

I agree with everyone but Jon that it is an excuse to lie.

The only "lie" would be calling a 3HP SPL (15A/115V) motor a 3HP motor,
which may have been the case in the past with less than reputable merchants
such as Sears/Craftsman, among others. To some of the participants on this
newsgroup, that is an excuse to consider legitimate motor manufacturers
guilty of the same type of deception, even when they properly label their
products.

I believe the phrase "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like
a nail" is appropriate here.

Jon



So what would be the rating of your motor, were it rated the same way as
other electric motors?

You don't know and I don't, either, that's the problem.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article ,
Tony Miklos wrote:

On 2/7/2011 9:18 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
Tony wrote:

Do not buy an "oilless" piece of crap.

And do not buy an oiled piece of crap. "Oilless" and "piece of crap" are
*not* synonymous. My oil free compressor was about $600, and I love it.
It's also very quiet, BTW.

Really? A quiet oilless? Now I am curious how many HP it says and what
the CFM at 90# is? And were you able to hear it run before buying it or
had you heard it is quiet from someone else?

I got it as Sears, I'm guessing about 7 years ago. It's a two stage.
High side is 175 p.s.i. and low side output is whatever you set it at.
(Has two built-in gauges, one for each stage, and of course a regulator
on the output) Built on a hand truck platform, so it's easily moved
around. 25 gallon vertical tank, motor sits on top. HP listed as 1.6
running, 3.5 "max developed." 120V.

CFM rating not given in the manual. Recommended duty cycle is 50-75%,
although according to the manual it is "capable of running continuously."

As far as quiet, it *is* a compressor, but two people can readily stand
next to it and converse in only slightly elevated tones. I had the
salesman wheel it and 3 or 4 other models over to the nearest outlet so
I could listen before I bought.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:55:13 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

bud-- wrote:
gfretwell wrote "if it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP." He is
right. Yours works because it is not a 3HP motor. Because of past, and
apparently current, fraud about everyone here has said ignore HP
ratings.
Yes, the motor on my compressor is not a 3HP motor, it is a 3HP SPL 15A/115V
motor. That's about 2.3HP Continuous, which is more than the 1HP you and
"gfretwell" claim is the absolute limit for air compressors.

A 100% efficient motor. I want one of them!

And 100% power factor too. Excellent engineering using unobtanium.

For real motors the NEC gives a table value of 16A 115V for a 1HP motor.

--
bud--

wrote:
1HP is not the absolute limit on 115v but if it has a NEMA 5-15 plug
on it (15a breaker max) that is about all the motor you can reliably
start.
There are some 1.5 HP motors that run on 120v but they will require a
20a breaker and a NEMA 5-20 plug if they want to get a U/L listing.

If you want to believe you have a 3HP compressor, go for it but I
would look at the air output myself.

There are about 100 articles on the net about "SPL" rated motors and
they all have the word "lie" or "inflated" in them

I never stated that I had a 3HP compressor, I stated that the motor on my
compressor is a 3HP SPL motor, with a rating of 15A at 115V.

You stated that " If it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP," which is
complete and utter bull****, as is most of the rest of the horse**** you
have tried to pile on to cover your ass.

I should know better than to attempt to have an honest discussion with
people on usenet.

Jon

On Feb 9, 2:15*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
wrote:
1HP is not the absolute limit on 115v but if it has a NEMA 5-15 plug
on it (15a breaker max) that is about all the motor you can reliably
start.
There are some 1.5 HP motors that run on 120v but they will require a
20a breaker and a NEMA 5-20 plug if they want to get a U/L listing.

If you want to believe you have a 3HP compressor, go for it but I
would look at the air output myself.

There are about 100 articles on the net about "SPL" rated motors and
they all have the word "lie" or "inflated" in them

I never stated that I had a 3HP compressor, I stated that the motor on my
compressor is a 3HP SPL motor, with a rating of 15A at 115V.

You stated that " If it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP," which is
complete and utter bull****, as is most of the rest of the horse**** you
have tried to pile on to cover your ass.

I should know better than to attempt to have an honest discussion with
people on usenet.

Jon

please read the table of estimated current draws at the following link

http://www.cerusind.com/catalog/docu...ngFormulas.pdf

and then apologize to all the people you've abused and insulted in
this thread.

The motor you have may or may not be greater than 1 HP, but if it *is*
it is more efficient than the motor used for the NEC tables, and in
any case, it is likely not significantly greater than 1 HP.

nate

PS - is your self worth really tied to the power output of your
electric compressor motor?

On 2/8/2011 9:18 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
Tony wrote:

On 2/7/2011 9:18 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
Tony wrote:

Do not buy an "oilless" piece of crap.

And do not buy an oiled piece of crap. "Oilless" and "piece of crap" are
*not* synonymous. My oil free compressor was about $600, and I love it.
It's also very quiet, BTW.

Really? A quiet oilless? Now I am curious how many HP it says and what
the CFM at 90# is? And were you able to hear it run before buying it or
had you heard it is quiet from someone else?

I got it as Sears, I'm guessing about 7 years ago. It's a two stage.
High side is 175 p.s.i. and low side output is whatever you set it at.
(Has two built-in gauges, one for each stage, and of course a regulator
on the output) Built on a hand truck platform, so it's easily moved
around. 25 gallon vertical tank, motor sits on top. HP listed as 1.6
running, 3.5 "max developed." 120V.

CFM rating not given in the manual. Recommended duty cycle is 50-75%,
although according to the manual it is "capable of running continuously."


Normally CFM is marked on the compressor/tank/cover along with the other
specs.


As far as quiet, it *is* a compressor, but two people can readily stand
next to it and converse in only slightly elevated tones. I had the
salesman wheel it and 3 or 4 other models over to the nearest outlet so
I could listen before I bought.

Interesting. I'd like to hear an oiless compressor that doesn't sound
similar to an old Wagner electric paint sprayer on steroids.

On Wed, 9 Feb 2011 11:15:34 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

wrote:
1HP is not the absolute limit on 115v but if it has a NEMA 5-15 plug
on it (15a breaker max) that is about all the motor you can reliably
start.
There are some 1.5 HP motors that run on 120v but they will require a
20a breaker and a NEMA 5-20 plug if they want to get a U/L listing.

If you want to believe you have a 3HP compressor, go for it but I
would look at the air output myself.

There are about 100 articles on the net about "SPL" rated motors and
they all have the word "lie" or "inflated" in them

I never stated that I had a 3HP compressor, I stated that the motor on my
compressor is a 3HP SPL motor, with a rating of 15A at 115V.

You stated that " If it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP," which is
complete and utter bull****, as is most of the rest of the horse**** you
have tried to pile on to cover your ass.

I should know better than to attempt to have an honest discussion with
people on usenet.

Jon


Jon, Sorry to burst your bubble, but a 3HP SPL motor is NOT a 3HP
motor. It is a special application motor that has the starting
torque(roughly) of a regular 3 HP split phase motor. This is
accomplished by the use of 2 capacitors (usually) which affect power
factor and the phase shift between current and voltage in the motor.
Once the motor comes up to speed it looses that advantage and it is
simply a 2HP motor (maximum, under ideal conditions) with a little
more "slip" built in (if it is a dual cap - or cap-start cap-run
motor), which allows it to produce slightly higher torque at slighly
lower RPM for short periods without stalling and going over-current.

1 HP is defined as either 745 watts or 550 ft lbs/second.

Since an electric motor will ALWAYS be less than 100% efficient, to
get 745 watts (or 550 ft-lbs/second) of power out, slightly more will
be required to be put in. If the motor was 90% efficient (and precious
few are) that would require 828 watts in. At a line voltage of 123
volts (high side of average) that requires 6.75 amps at 100% power
factor (or unity power factor, or Power Factor of 1, depending at how
you want to quote it).At 117 volts (more realistic line voltage) that
takes 7 amps.

So, at the very MOST you have a 2HP motor. And that is being extremely
optimistic on both efficiency and power factor.(real world efficiency
is closer to 80%)
More realistically, a motor that will start and run on a 15 amp
circuit in a 120 volt system is a 1.5 HP motor.

You can slice it and dice it and spin it any way you want - the laws
of physics prevent anything more than 2 HP from being developed on a
120 volt 15 amp circuit, absolute best case.

That said, the 3HP SPL motor will start a bigger load without tripping
the breaker or blowing the fuse than a regular 2HP motor will start.
It might even, very optimistically, start the same load as a 3HP
regular duty AC motor would start (under the right combination of
conditions), and installing a 2HP utility motor on the compressor in
place of the 3HP SPL would LIKELY reqwuire a smaller pulley to start
the compressor reliably.
I'd love to see a compressor with a variable ratio(variable speed)
drive that would start the compressor at a high numerical ratio, then
speed the compressor up under light load, and slow it down under
heavier load, to get the maximum air power out of the least electrical
power input possible - but that would not be your typical low-cost
compressor any more.

wrote:
Jon, Sorry to burst your bubble, but a 3HP SPL motor is NOT a 3HP
motor.

No ****, sherlock, what you think I have been trying to explain for the last
two days?

Jon

On 02/09/2011 06:56 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
wrote:
Jon, Sorry to burst your bubble, but a 3HP SPL motor is NOT a 3HP
motor.

No ****, sherlock, what you think I have been trying to explain for the last
two days?

We're still not sure.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 17:37:13 -0500, wrote:


Jon, Sorry to burst your bubble, but a 3HP SPL motor is NOT a 3HP
motor. It is a special application motor that has the starting
torque(roughly) of a regular 3 HP split phase motor. This is
accomplished by the use of 2 capacitors (usually) which affect power
factor and the phase shift between current and voltage in the motor.
Once the motor comes up to speed it looses that advantage and it is
simply a 2HP motor (maximum, under ideal conditions) with a little
more "slip" built in (if it is a dual cap - or cap-start cap-run
motor), which allows it to produce slightly higher torque at slighly
lower RPM for short periods without stalling and going over-current.

1 HP is defined as either 745 watts or 550 ft lbs/second.

Since an electric motor will ALWAYS be less than 100% efficient, to
get 745 watts (or 550 ft-lbs/second) of power out, slightly more will
be required to be put in. If the motor was 90% efficient (and precious
few are) that would require 828 watts in. At a line voltage of 123
volts (high side of average) that requires 6.75 amps at 100% power
factor (or unity power factor, or Power Factor of 1, depending at how
you want to quote it).At 117 volts (more realistic line voltage) that
takes 7 amps.

So, at the very MOST you have a 2HP motor. And that is being extremely
optimistic on both efficiency and power factor.(real world efficiency
is closer to 80%)
More realistically, a motor that will start and run on a 15 amp
circuit in a 120 volt system is a 1.5 HP motor.

You can slice it and dice it and spin it any way you want - the laws
of physics prevent anything more than 2 HP from being developed on a
120 volt 15 amp circuit, absolute best case.

That said, the 3HP SPL motor will start a bigger load without tripping
the breaker or blowing the fuse than a regular 2HP motor will start.
It might even, very optimistically, start the same load as a 3HP
regular duty AC motor would start (under the right combination of
conditions), and installing a 2HP utility motor on the compressor in
place of the 3HP SPL would LIKELY reqwuire a smaller pulley to start
the compressor reliably.
I'd love to see a compressor with a variable ratio(variable speed)
drive that would start the compressor at a high numerical ratio, then
speed the compressor up under light load, and slow it down under
heavier load, to get the maximum air power out of the least electrical
power input possible - but that would not be your typical low-cost
compressor any more.


Nice explanation. Might be able to use it when I buy a compressor.
Want a cast iron, as heavy duty as possible on 120V, 15 amp.
Light use for impact wrenches, filling tires, etc.
The garage circuit also carries 6 2-tube 4' fluorescents.
Don't want to be running to the basement because of the breaker
tripping.
Any way to spec a 120V compressor motor for this?
Stay under 15 amps? 13?
I could pull a 220V service to the garage if I had to.
I'd get an electrician for that. I stay away from electricity..
Don't want to if not really necessary though, because the 1/2"
condiuit is 50 years old and runs under fairly new and good sidewalk.
That might cause issues.

--Vic

On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 19:51:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 17:37:13 -0500, wrote:


Jon, Sorry to burst your bubble, but a 3HP SPL motor is NOT a 3HP
motor. It is a special application motor that has the starting
torque(roughly) of a regular 3 HP split phase motor. This is
accomplished by the use of 2 capacitors (usually) which affect power
factor and the phase shift between current and voltage in the motor.
Once the motor comes up to speed it looses that advantage and it is
simply a 2HP motor (maximum, under ideal conditions) with a little
more "slip" built in (if it is a dual cap - or cap-start cap-run
motor), which allows it to produce slightly higher torque at slighly
lower RPM for short periods without stalling and going over-current.

1 HP is defined as either 745 watts or 550 ft lbs/second.

Since an electric motor will ALWAYS be less than 100% efficient, to
get 745 watts (or 550 ft-lbs/second) of power out, slightly more will
be required to be put in. If the motor was 90% efficient (and precious
few are) that would require 828 watts in. At a line voltage of 123
volts (high side of average) that requires 6.75 amps at 100% power
factor (or unity power factor, or Power Factor of 1, depending at how
you want to quote it).At 117 volts (more realistic line voltage) that
takes 7 amps.

So, at the very MOST you have a 2HP motor. And that is being extremely
optimistic on both efficiency and power factor.(real world efficiency
is closer to 80%)
More realistically, a motor that will start and run on a 15 amp
circuit in a 120 volt system is a 1.5 HP motor.

You can slice it and dice it and spin it any way you want - the laws
of physics prevent anything more than 2 HP from being developed on a
120 volt 15 amp circuit, absolute best case.

That said, the 3HP SPL motor will start a bigger load without tripping
the breaker or blowing the fuse than a regular 2HP motor will start.
It might even, very optimistically, start the same load as a 3HP
regular duty AC motor would start (under the right combination of
conditions), and installing a 2HP utility motor on the compressor in
place of the 3HP SPL would LIKELY reqwuire a smaller pulley to start
the compressor reliably.
I'd love to see a compressor with a variable ratio(variable speed)
drive that would start the compressor at a high numerical ratio, then
speed the compressor up under light load, and slow it down under
heavier load, to get the maximum air power out of the least electrical
power input possible - but that would not be your typical low-cost
compressor any more.


Nice explanation. Might be able to use it when I buy a compressor.
Want a cast iron, as heavy duty as possible on 120V, 15 amp.
Light use for impact wrenches, filling tires, etc.
The garage circuit also carries 6 2-tube 4' fluorescents.
Don't want to be running to the basement because of the breaker
tripping.
Any way to spec a 120V compressor motor for this?
Stay under 15 amps? 13?
I could pull a 220V service to the garage if I had to.
I'd get an electrician for that. I stay away from electricity..
Don't want to if not really necessary though, because the 1/2"
condiuit is 50 years old and runs under fairly new and good sidewalk.
That might cause issues.

--Vic
I just switched mine over to 220 - now I can start it when it is
cold. It is rated at 14 amps on 120, and 7 on 220, but it was popping
15 amp fuses on a normal startup, and 20s if it was at all cold.

On 220 the 15s start it when cold.

I've also been wondering. What was that, again?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
On 02/09/2011 06:56 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:

No ****, sherlock, what you think I have been trying to
explain for the last
two days?

We're still not sure.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Sounds like you want 2 HP or less. Be sure to change the
oil, and put in good quality oil. Lubrication will help keep
the amperage down. And oil the bearings on the motor, too,
with ND-20 or equivilant. Keep the friction down, and that
will help keep the amperage down.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Vic Smith" wrote in
message ...


Nice explanation. Might be able to use it when I buy a
compressor.
Want a cast iron, as heavy duty as possible on 120V, 15 amp.
Light use for impact wrenches, filling tires, etc.
The garage circuit also carries 6 2-tube 4' fluorescents.
Don't want to be running to the basement because of the
breaker
tripping.
Any way to spec a 120V compressor motor for this?
Stay under 15 amps? 13?
I could pull a 220V service to the garage if I had to.
I'd get an electrician for that. I stay away from
electricity..
Don't want to if not really necessary though, because the
1/2"
condiuit is 50 years old and runs under fairly new and good
sidewalk.
That might cause issues.

--Vic

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 08:47:10 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Sounds like you want 2 HP or less. Be sure to change the
oil, and put in good quality oil. Lubrication will help keep
the amperage down. And oil the bearings on the motor, too,
with ND-20 or equivilant. Keep the friction down, and that
will help keep the amperage down.


Thanks for that advice.
Pretty much settled on this.
Should be all I'll need.
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pdf/8845Brochure.pdf

Sears has had it for $449 so I'll wait for that.
Not ready to pull the trigger anyway.
Been complaining to my wife about much she spends on groceries.
Best to let that settle down.
Still don't know if my 15 amp garage circuit will handle it though.
Don't know how start-up amps work, how many amps the lights are
pulling, etc.
But since folks are using it on 15 amp circuits, I guess that's just
worrying too much.
Read plenty of reviews, and only one guy said his lights flickered.

--Vic

I really don't like the Sears chain. I used to work for
Sears in 1996, and had only bad experiences. I could go
on.....

That said, you could probably find a similar compressor at
Napa, Auto Zone, etc. And not feed the Sears monster. Harbor
Freight might have something similar, if you want chinky
junky.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Vic Smith" wrote in
message ...


Thanks for that advice.
Pretty much settled on this.
Should be all I'll need.
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pdf/8845Brochure.pdf

Sears has had it for $449 so I'll wait for that.
Not ready to pull the trigger anyway.
Been complaining to my wife about much she spends on
groceries.
Best to let that settle down.
Still don't know if my 15 amp garage circuit will handle it
though.
Don't know how start-up amps work, how many amps the lights
are
pulling, etc.
But since folks are using it on 15 amp circuits, I guess
that's just
worrying too much.
Read plenty of reviews, and only one guy said his lights
flickered.

--Vic

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:07:13 -0500, wrote:



Look around in the IR web site and get the installation/user manual
PDF. I bet they recommend this should be on a 20a dedicated circuit.
I have a similar compressor and that is what my book says.


No recommendation except call an electrician.

http://www.irtechpubs.com/ir_pdfs/Co...r/80444425.pdf

If you have an amp of lights on a 15a you are pushing it. I guess
pulling in another circuit is going be hard.

Might not be for an electrician. Don't know why I spent at least 50
bucks on fish tapes. Maybe I'll use them some day.
I was going to pull 220 to the garage for a compressor some years ago.
My brother said I could have a problem with corroded conduit.
It's 1/2" I think, and underground the 30' from house to garage.
So I just never got around to tackling it.
Maybe I never needed the compressor so much?

But thanks. You mentioning 20a made me check my circuit box.
Thought it was all 15's but there are four 20's..
When it's dark and my wife is home I'll turn on the garage door light
on have her watch while I trip the 20's.
Maybe I'm good to go.
Now, do I really need that compressor.

--Vic

Jon Danniken wrote:
wrote:
Jon, Sorry to burst your bubble, but a 3HP SPL motor is NOT a 3HP
motor.

Is there any reason to believe that these motors have different
characteristics than other cap start cap run motor (which is what this
motor is)?
Is there a reliable source that says compressor motors have a different
characteristic?
That is, is there any reason an honest company wouldn't use the real HP?

Perusing the Grainger catalog (real paper), many of the smaller
compressors (maybe 6HP max) have a "peak HP" and a "run HP". Peak HP was
what was used by companies that were sued in the class action. It is
likely what "SPL" is. "Run HP" is the mechanical HP used at the rated
air output (the real HP). "Run HP" generally ranges from about 30 to 65
% of "peak HP". In general the higher the HP the lower the percentage.

The companies in the class action presumably agreed to not mislabel
their compressors. That puts them at a disadvantage to companies like Jon's.


No ****, sherlock, what you think I have been trying to explain for the last
two days?


It started when gfretwell said 1HP was about the max you could run on a
15A circuit. You said "nonsense" you run your 3HP motor on a 15A
circuit. In the quote above clare told you it is not a 3HP motor. That
is what everyone else has been telling you.

Then you said it was a 2.3HP motor - also wrong.

Nobody seems to know what you are saying, including you.

--
bud--

Vic Smith wrote:
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pdf/8845Brochure.pdf

It says it's got a 2HP motor on a 115V circuit, which is impossible
according to a number of people on this newsgroup.

You might want to call IR and tell them they have a misprint. VBG

Jon

bud-- wrote:
It started when gfretwell said 1HP was about the max you could run on
a 15A circuit. You said "nonsense" you run your 3HP motor on a 15A
circuit.

Bull****. I never stated that I had a 3HP motor.

I did state that I had a compressor with a 15A motor, and that it was a "3HP
SPL" rated motor.

At no time did I claim that I had a 3HP motor.

Nice troll, though, as with the other trolls in this group. You guys had me
going for a bit, shame on me for falling for it.

Jon

On Feb 10, 3:41*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
*http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pdf/8845Brochure.pdf

It says it's got a 2HP motor on a 115V circuit, which is impossible
according to a number of people on this newsgroup.

You might want to call IR and tell them they have a misprint. *VBG

Jon

Won't work on a 15A, 115V circuit. Should work OK on a 20A, 115V
circuit however if there are no other loads connected. Note that
current draw is listed @ 15A. You should not connect a motor that
draws 15A, running, at full load to a 15A branch circuit.

Theoretically speaking, 2HP is 2*746W = 1492W or about 13A @ 115V, so
even if the motor were 100% efficient it would still not be acceptable
on a 15A circuit. (shouldn't load a circuit to more than 80% of its
OCPD rating as a general rule, not sure if rules are different for
motors or not. In the case of a 15A 115V ckt. that would be 1380W or
12A.) The compressor you describe draws 15A which is less than 20*0.8
or 16A so that is why I say that that should be OK, although it still
might blow a fast-blow fuse on startup.

So, no, in short you shouldn't connect a 2HP motor to a 115V, 15A
circuit (typical household circuit.)

nate

N8N wrote:
On Feb 10, 3:41 pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pdf/8845Brochure.pdf

It says it's got a 2HP motor on a 115V circuit, which is impossible
according to a number of people on this newsgroup.

You might want to call IR and tell them they have a misprint. VBG

Jon

Won't work on a 15A, 115V circuit. Should work OK on a 20A, 115V
circuit however if there are no other loads connected.

Not according to , who stated "If it is 120v it will not
be more than 1HP."

Surely you're not questioning the word of the almighty gfretwell?

Jon

On Feb 10, 4:52*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
N8N wrote:
On Feb 10, 3:41 pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pdf/8845Brochure.pdf

It says it's got a 2HP motor on a 115V circuit, which is impossible
according to a number of people on this newsgroup.

You might want to call IR and tell them they have a misprint. VBG

Jon

Won't work on a 15A, 115V circuit. *Should work OK on a 20A, 115V
circuit however if there are no other loads connected.

Not according to , who stated "If it is 120v it will not
be more than 1HP."

Surely you're not questioning the word of the almighty gfretwell?

Here's what he actually said:

"1HP is not the absolute limit on 115v but if it has a NEMA 5-15 plug
on it (15a breaker max) that is about all the motor you can reliably
start."

I don't claim to be an expert on motors, but based on some cocktail
napkin calculations, he's probably about right. Maybe a 1.5 HP motor
would be OK, maybe it wouldn't, but 2 HP is definitely right out.

nate

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:46:22 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

bud-- wrote:
It started when gfretwell said 1HP was about the max you could run on
a 15A circuit. You said "nonsense" you run your 3HP motor on a 15A
circuit.

Bull****. I never stated that I had a 3HP motor.

I did state that I had a compressor with a 15A motor, and that it was a "3HP
SPL" rated motor.

At no time did I claim that I had a 3HP motor.

It ain't 2.3HP, either.

Nice troll, though, as with the other trolls in this group.

It's unseemly to pat yourself on the back in a public forum.

You guys had me
going for a bit, shame on me for falling for it.

In article ,
Tony Miklos wrote:

On 2/8/2011 9:18 PM, Smitty Two wrote:


CFM rating not given in the manual. Recommended duty cycle is 50-75%,
although according to the manual it is "capable of running continuously."


Normally CFM is marked on the compressor/tank/cover along with the other
specs.

This one just has a big table of tasks, rated by typical air usage, and
sez that it's a "7", so will handle any task of "7" or less. No
indication that the "7" is anything other than an arbitrary scale.



As far as quiet, it *is* a compressor, but two people can readily stand
next to it and converse in only slightly elevated tones. I had the
salesman wheel it and 3 or 4 other models over to the nearest outlet so
I could listen before I bought.

Interesting. I'd like to hear an oiless compressor that doesn't sound
similar to an old Wagner electric paint sprayer on steroids.

Well, when you get curious enough to go listen, do what I did and go to
the store and listen. Or come over to my shop if you want.

In article
,
N8N wrote:


Here's what he gfretwell actually said:

"1HP is not the absolute limit on 115v but if it has a NEMA 5-15 plug
on it (15a breaker max) that is about all the motor you can reliably
start."

I don't claim to be an expert on motors, but based on some cocktail
napkin calculations, he's probably about right. Maybe a 1.5 HP motor
would be OK, maybe it wouldn't, but 2 HP is definitely right out.

nate

FWIW my Sears compressor says 1.6 amp running. I run it on a 15 amp
circuit, but I either turn off most of the lights on that circuit while
it's running or I make some trips out to the breaker box. Never had the
breaker pop just from the inrush current.

In article
,
Smitty Two wrote:

In article
,
N8N wrote:


Here's what he gfretwell actually said:

"1HP is not the absolute limit on 115v but if it has a NEMA 5-15 plug
on it (15a breaker max) that is about all the motor you can reliably
start."

I don't claim to be an expert on motors, but based on some cocktail
napkin calculations, he's probably about right. Maybe a 1.5 HP motor
would be OK, maybe it wouldn't, but 2 HP is definitely right out.

nate

FWIW my Sears compressor says 1.6 amp running. I run it on a 15 amp
circuit, but I either turn off most of the lights on that circuit while
it's running or I make some trips out to the breaker box. Never had the
breaker pop just from the inrush current.

D'oh! 1.6 HP running ...

On Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:37:18 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Jon Danniken wrote:
bud-- wrote:
A lot of people here work with electric motors - no one seems to know
what SPL is. Jon might but he isn't saying much.

The two local motor rewinders that I called yesterday told me it stood for
"special", as in it is a particular type of rating used in motors for
specific applications, namely compressors.

Much more appropriately I saw someone call it "Someone's Probably Lying".


I'm sure you could contact Magnetek/Century (the manufacturer of the motor
on my compressor) for a more specific answer.

Now apparently owned by AO Smith.
IMHO their website sucks. I looked earlier for info on SPL and couldn't
find anything, including no phone number.


I agree with everyone but Jon that it is an excuse to lie.

The only "lie" would be calling a 3HP SPL (15A/115V) motor a 3HP motor,
which may have been the case in the past with less than reputable merchants
such as Sears/Craftsman, among others. To some of the participants on this
newsgroup, that is an excuse to consider legitimate motor manufacturers
guilty of the same type of deception, even when they properly label their
products.

There was a class action lawsuit about 5 years ago about fraudulent HP
ratings on compressors/motors. The manufacturers lost and were supposed
to use real HP ratings. You have the old fraudulent rating hidden behind
"SPL". Your 3HP rating is a lie intended to deceive. The same as in
class action lawsuit (with a minor cover your ass).

gfretwell wrote "if it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP." He is
right. Yours works because it is not a 3HP motor. Because of past, and
apparently current, fraud about everyone here has said ignore HP ratings.


I believe the phrase "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like
a nail" is appropriate here.


Is there any reason why the "real" HP is not used?
How is a 3HP SPL motor different from a motor with a real HP rating?
What possible reason is there to use "SPL"?

I can think of one reason.
It is the same fraud as in the class action lawsuit about 5 years ago,
with a minor cover-your-ass.


I can think of another. It possible that there is some design
difference in how the motor is wound or some other aspect that makes
it more difficult for it to stall if someone shuts it off and then
immediately back on when it's pumping under high pressure.

On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 20:10:50 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 02/09/2011 06:56 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
wrote:
Jon, Sorry to burst your bubble, but a 3HP SPL motor is NOT a 3HP
motor.

No ****, sherlock, what you think I have been trying to explain for the last
two days?

We're still not sure.

nate


I've understood what he's been saying since the beginning of the
thread. He's never said it's anything other then what it's labeled
as, a 3hp SPL and he's acknowledged that he's not claiming it's a 3hp
continuous duty motor. He's simply said, several times, essentially
the same thing clare just posted. Maybe there is some history here
I'm not aware of but it seems like a lot of people went out of their
way to attack him for pointing out there is a difference between a
'compressor' motor and a 'regular' motor.

On 2/10/2011 10:12 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 08:47:10 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Sounds like you want 2 HP or less. Be sure to change the
oil, and put in good quality oil. Lubrication will help keep
the amperage down. And oil the bearings on the motor, too,
with ND-20 or equivilant. Keep the friction down, and that
will help keep the amperage down.


Thanks for that advice.
Pretty much settled on this.
Should be all I'll need.

I think Clare had the best idea about changing your single 115 line to a
220-240 line. Although I don't know if that calls for a third wire or
if you can use the ground as a neutral and drive a ground rod in at the
garage. If possible, that is your best bet for now and down the road.
Double your capacity through the same wires.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:47:34 -0500, wrote:



I will warn you, once you get hooked on air tools, you will wonder how
you lived without them. There is nothing better for working around
your dock. You have no electrocution fears and lots of power. I
borrowed a big air drill and I was spinning a 3/4" ship auger through
SYP pilings. The only trick was holding on so you didn't get thrown in
the water. They are air hogs. About half way through, I needed to stop
and let it catch up.

I don't have a dock, but one of my kids is a mechanic and has been
doing all my car work. He's got plenty of air tools at work, but has
no problem doing plenty of car work in my garage without them.
A lot of cars, and doing stuff he would use air for if he had it.
I wanted the compressor mostly for tires and sandblasting.
Never had a problem turning a wrench or breaking a nut manually.
He called yesterday and said his offer on a house was accepted.
House has a nice garage. And he'll be farther away.
I got a feeling at some point he'll ask to "borrow" the compressor for
use in that garage, and I'll say "sure" because he does so much for
me.
But it will bug me a bit when I want to use the compressor and it's at
his place. It's happened with other tools of mine.
But like the other tools, I always end up figuring he's putting them
to more use than me. And he's a good kid. So I get over it.
He got most of my wrench sets, and what I did was eventually buy some
new sets and lay down the law "These are mine, and mine only."

So now I'm thinking I'll get him the compressor as a "housewarming"
gift after he closes. Avoid all the in-between stuff.
Then see if I want to buy one for myself.

--Vic

On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:11:04 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 2/10/2011 10:12 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 08:47:10 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Sounds like you want 2 HP or less. Be sure to change the
oil, and put in good quality oil. Lubrication will help keep
the amperage down. And oil the bearings on the motor, too,
with ND-20 or equivilant. Keep the friction down, and that
will help keep the amperage down.


Thanks for that advice.
Pretty much settled on this.
Should be all I'll need.

I think Clare had the best idea about changing your single 115 line to a
220-240 line. Although I don't know if that calls for a third wire or
if you can use the ground as a neutral and drive a ground rod in at the
garage. If possible, that is your best bet for now and down the road.
Double your capacity through the same wires.
IF the circuit is dedicated to the compressor you can get away with
L1 and L2 and ground with no neutral as you do not need any 110 volt
capability. No ground rod issues ar anything, assuming you have a
grounded cable now. You do need to mark the white wire red, or pigtail
a red wire to it to identify the former neutral wire as a live
conductor.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:47:34 -0500, wrote:
But it will bug me a bit when I want to use the compressor and it's at
his place. It's happened with other tools of mine.
But like the other tools, I always end up figuring he's putting them
to more use than me. And he's a good kid. So I get over it.
He got most of my wrench sets, and what I did was eventually buy some
new sets and lay down the law "These are mine, and mine only."

So now I'm thinking I'll get him the compressor as a "housewarming"
gift after he closes. Avoid all the in-between stuff.
Then see if I want to buy one for myself.


Sometimes it is an 'investment' to get a son or son-inlaw some tools. Last
Christmas I bought my son-inlaw a wire welder he had been looking at. Way
more money than I wanted to give for a gift, but if I want something welded,
he is only about a 15 minuit drive from the house. Beats me trying to learn
how to weld to do a job I want done maybe once every two years.

In article ,
Vic Smith wrote:

I wanted the compressor mostly for tires and sandblasting.

Any decent sized blast cabinet equipped with a decent sized nozzle
consumes copious quantities of air, on the order of 25 cfm or more. No
home shop type units can supply that continuously. I do have a blast
cabinet and get good service from it, but it's short duty cycle stuff.

Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
Vic wrote:

I wanted the compressor mostly for tires and sandblasting.

Any decent sized blast cabinet equipped with a decent sized nozzle
consumes copious quantities of air, on the order of 25 cfm or more. No
home shop type units can supply that continuously. I do have a blast
cabinet and get good service from it, but it's short duty cycle stuff.
Hi,
One reason I bought one is to blow out the sprinkler system every fall.
I got a dual cylinder belt driven compressor with 30 Gal. tank. It is
good enough to work on the cars, air for tires, replacing rims for
seasonal change, etc. But sand blasting really needs industrial grade
I think.

If all the devices in the garage are 220 VAC, might work.
But, using a ground as a neutral will probably not be safe.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tony Miklos" wrote in message
...


I think Clare had the best idea about changing your single
115 line to a
220-240 line. Although I don't know if that calls for a
third wire or
if you can use the ground as a neutral and drive a ground
rod in at the
garage. If possible, that is your best bet for now and down
the road.
Double your capacity through the same wires.

Want some advice on buying a used compressor?

One time I went to help a friend change a front axle. I
didn't bring any of my own tools, figured the guy who had
the garage had tools. Turns out the guy doesn't "believe in"
power tools. We had several times when my electric plug in
impact gun would have made the job a lot easier.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Vic Smith" wrote in
message ...

I don't have a dock, but one of my kids is a mechanic and
has been
doing all my car work. He's got plenty of air tools at
work, but has
no problem doing plenty of car work in my garage without
them.
A lot of cars, and doing stuff he would use air for if he
had it.
I wanted the compressor mostly for tires and sandblasting.
Never had a problem turning a wrench or breaking a nut
manually.
He called yesterday and said his offer on a house was
accepted.
House has a nice garage. And he'll be farther away.
I got a feeling at some point he'll ask to "borrow" the
compressor for
use in that garage, and I'll say "sure" because he does so
much for
me.
But it will bug me a bit when I want to use the compressor
and it's at
his place. It's happened with other tools of mine.
But like the other tools, I always end up figuring he's
putting them
to more use than me. And he's a good kid. So I get over
it.
He got most of my wrench sets, and what I did was eventually
buy some
new sets and lay down the law "These are mine, and mine
only."

So now I'm thinking I'll get him the compressor as a
"housewarming"
gift after he closes. Avoid all the in-between stuff.
Then see if I want to buy one for myself.

--Vic

Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:37:18 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Jon Danniken wrote:
bud-- wrote:
A lot of people here work with electric motors - no one seems to know
what SPL is. Jon might but he isn't saying much.
The two local motor rewinders that I called yesterday told me it stood for
"special", as in it is a particular type of rating used in motors for
specific applications, namely compressors.
Much more appropriately I saw someone call it "Someone's Probably Lying".

I'm sure you could contact Magnetek/Century (the manufacturer of the motor
on my compressor) for a more specific answer.
Now apparently owned by AO Smith.
IMHO their website sucks. I looked earlier for info on SPL and couldn't
find anything, including no phone number.

I agree with everyone but Jon that it is an excuse to lie.
The only "lie" would be calling a 3HP SPL (15A/115V) motor a 3HP motor,
which may have been the case in the past with less than reputable merchants
such as Sears/Craftsman, among others. To some of the participants on this
newsgroup, that is an excuse to consider legitimate motor manufacturers
guilty of the same type of deception, even when they properly label their
products.
There was a class action lawsuit about 5 years ago about fraudulent HP
ratings on compressors/motors. The manufacturers lost and were supposed
to use real HP ratings. You have the old fraudulent rating hidden behind
"SPL". Your 3HP rating is a lie intended to deceive. The same as in
class action lawsuit (with a minor cover your ass).

gfretwell wrote "if it is 120v it will not be more than 1HP." He is
right. Yours works because it is not a 3HP motor. Because of past, and
apparently current, fraud about everyone here has said ignore HP ratings.

I believe the phrase "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like
a nail" is appropriate here.

Is there any reason why the "real" HP is not used?
How is a 3HP SPL motor different from a motor with a real HP rating?
What possible reason is there to use "SPL"?

I can think of one reason.
It is the same fraud as in the class action lawsuit about 5 years ago,
with a minor cover-your-ass.


I can think of another. It possible that there is some design
difference in how the motor is wound or some other aspect that makes
it more difficult for it to stall if someone shuts it off and then
immediately back on when it's pumping under high pressure.

Far as I know they all unload when the motor stops I wouldn't bet on
starting against high head pressure.

I think the answer is closer to what clare wrote. In looking around, the
motors I saw on compressors were capacitor start, capacitor run. Those
motors, in general, have relatively high starting torque and relatively
low starting current for that torque. I have seen no reason to believe
"special compressor motors" are anything but standard cap start, cap run
motors.

The problem I have is Jon's 3HP SPL motor. It is a scam rating. Just
like the scam ratings that resulted in the class action lawsuit, which
the manufacturers settled. If Jon knew it was not a real number then why
post it? (And then there was Jon's 2.3HP miscalculated value.)

A scam "peak" 3HP motor has a peak (near stall) torque that is equal to
the normal running torque of a 3HP motor. It is not the starting torque
of a 3HP motor.

For many of its smaller compressors, Grainger gives both the scam "peak"
HP (competitive with Jon's scam rating) and a real HP.

I haven't seen any reason to believe that the "real" HP is not the
appropriate rating. Because there are plenty of scam ratings, you can't
compare compressors based on HP rating (as many people here have said).
Even with real HP ratings you need to compare the air you need with what
a compressor provides (also as many people here have said).

=============
This is similar to joule ratings on surge suppressors. In that case
there is not a defined way to measure the joule rating. So some
manufacturers use deceptive ratings. As a result, some major
manufacturers no longer give a joule rating.

--
bud--