On 10/3/2010 2:33 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:49 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:57 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 9:52 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:28 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:25 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:24 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.
But, gasoline pumps need electricity, also. During a really long
outage,
I wonder how that would affect natural gas "delivery"?

The natural gas distribution system uses natural gas powered
turbines to
pressurize the lines so it would keep on humming.

LMAO!! better do some more homework.


Where would you suggest I start with the homework? One of my oldest
friends works for the one of the major natural gas pipeline companies
and I posed the question about what happens when the electric power
fails a long time ago and he said they are self sufficient as I
described. I have seem the interior of pumping stations and it is very
clever how they set them up.

Our local gas utility also has a number of stations. The largest one in
my area is near a pipeline river crossing in a wooded area where the
local system connects to the intrastate pipeline. There isn't electric
service within a half mile of there.

All's i'm saying is that they are not ALL that way. Some are electric,
some are NG turbine, and some are NG fueled internal combustion engines.
But in the case of a wide spread electrical failure, you can bet the NG
would go down also. The control centers are not NG powered. I'd go with
propane if i had a backup generator. Just just my preference.


Why wouldn't the control center that houses the SCADA system not have
redundant power? That would be one of the main considerations when
designing such a system. The center I have seen has utility electric
power feeds and multiple CAT diesels and a big fuel tank. They even went
so far as to place a huge Jersey bank between the building and a
railroad track that isn't that close to prevent damage if there is a
train wreck.

We have experienced at least two long blackouts and the NG system kept
on humming because it was designed to work that way.

A friend of mine was in charge of the communications division of a power
company and that utility actually used their electrical power grid to
carry communication if the phone system went down. If you've ever been
in a phone company central office, you will have seen massive battery
banks taking up a whole large room or more. Data processing centers and
most ISP's have quite elaborate backup power systems that are constantly
tested and maintained. Most folks have now idea of the redundant power
systems they walk past every day. Last weekend I was installing some
network equipment in an office building and when I looked out the window
on the back side of the building, I saw two generators. The darn things
are everywhere.

TDD

I have seen many installations. One place I work at has dual electric
utility feeds that originate at different primaries, a huge battery room
and 3 huge CAT diesel generators.

What you mentioned is quite variable and depends on the ethic of the
company. Some are amazingly lame and are simply hoping nothing will happen.

People would be totally shocked at how Mickey Mouse many everyday
services they depend on are operated. For example if you use a tmobile
or AT&T phone pretty much all of their cell sites only have a tiny
backup battery. If the power goes down your cell service does very
shortly after. This is even more important since so many people have
dropped land lines. A good friend lives in an area higher than here that
is situated perfectly to catch a lot of ice during winter storms. He
mentioned his family went gaga over having iphones which currently only
work on AT&T. He laughed when I mentioned he may want to put a telephone
line back in the house. They had a massive ice storm the winter before
last and the power was off for 4 days. He said they lost AT&T cell
coverage very shortly after the power went off. VZW stayed up because
they fit each site with lots of battery and a generator.

On 10/3/2010 12:31 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 15:15:31 -0400, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote the following:
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:24:12 -0400, Art wrote:


On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.

But, gasoline pumps need electricity,
also.


Long-term outages rarely cover a wide-area, except in perhaps a CA earthquake.

...or in the NE during a widespread heavy snow or ice storm, or
hurricane.

Nope. Outages are never widespread and long-lasting. Even when some homes
have been knocked out for three weeks, most have power restored in hours.

Guessing you have never been to the NE in the winter? How would you
restore service in hours when major parts of the infrastructure have
been taken down by ice and ice laden trees?



Hurricane Floyd back in 1999 took out a wide range of wired
services besides electricity, and included telephone, cable, and
internet. The outage lasted 72 hours for me. It took the help of a
number of utility companies from other inland states to restore power .

Some were likely back on line in hours after the winds subsided.

...

On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 00:54:59 -0400, aemeijers wrote:

On 10/3/2010 12:31 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 15:15:31 -0400, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote the following:
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:24:12 -0400, Art wrote:


On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.

But, gasoline pumps need electricity,
also.


Long-term outages rarely cover a wide-area, except in perhaps a CA earthquake.

...or in the NE during a widespread heavy snow or ice storm, or
hurricane.

Nope. Outages are never widespread and long-lasting. Even when some homes
have been knocked out for three weeks, most have power restored in hours.

Hurricane Floyd back in 1999 took out a wide range of wired
services besides electricity, and included telephone, cable, and
internet. The outage lasted 72 hours for me. It took the help of a
number of utility companies from other inland states to restore power .

Some were likely back on line in hours after the winds subsided.

...
You are usually correct, but not always. After Katrina, entire parishes
were dark for upwards of a week. When 30 miles of poles and wire are
flat-out GONE (not to mention the road itself), and the right-of-way
they were on is still flooded, you can't repair it until mother nature
cooperates.

Yeah, I guess Katrina messed things up pretty badly, too. The snow/ice
argument was bogus.

Hell, a couple of the more ****ant beach towns were pretty much
completely scrubbed away. Not sure if they bothered to rebuild, or just
bought out their deeds to their patches of the mud flat, and called it
done. Towns should never have been built there in the first place. There
were debris collection points that I saw with my own eyes, larger than a
football field, and 3 stories tall. Never did find where they were
hauling it off to. You can't do local landfills in areas where water
table and ground level are the same thing.

Beach towns and barrier islands, sure. Go inland 10 miles and things change.
The point is that there will usually be gas available somewhere in the area
within hours or a few days, at the most. There is no reason to stockpile a
month's gasoline on premises.

On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 09:04:04 -0400, George wrote:

On 10/3/2010 12:31 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 15:15:31 -0400, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote the following:
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:24:12 -0400, Art wrote:


On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.

But, gasoline pumps need electricity,
also.


Long-term outages rarely cover a wide-area, except in perhaps a CA earthquake.

...or in the NE during a widespread heavy snow or ice storm, or
hurricane.

Nope. Outages are never widespread and long-lasting. Even when some homes
have been knocked out for three weeks, most have power restored in hours.

Guessing you have never been to the NE in the winter? How would you
restore service in hours when major parts of the infrastructure have
been taken down by ice and ice laden trees?

You're wrong. I lived in the NE (NY and VT) for over thirty years. We had
some rather bad storms, and as _I_SAID_, some were without power for weeks,
but there was no widespread and long-lasting power outages. Ever. Fuel was
always available in hours, even after the worst storms (like 12" of sloppy
stuff on Oct. 4, '77?).

...

On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 00:54:59 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

....
were debris collection points that I saw with my own eyes, larger than a
football field, and 3 stories tall. Never did find where they were
hauling it off to.

Same thing after Andrew hit south of Miami (Homestead, FL).

Those mountains of trash were barged to New York, and perhaps other NE
locations at great expense. Likely the same happened after Katrina.

On 10/3/2010 7:59 AM, George wrote:
On 10/3/2010 2:33 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:49 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:57 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 9:52 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:28 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:25 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:24 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.
But, gasoline pumps need electricity, also. During a really long
outage,
I wonder how that would affect natural gas "delivery"?

The natural gas distribution system uses natural gas powered
turbines to
pressurize the lines so it would keep on humming.

LMAO!! better do some more homework.


Where would you suggest I start with the homework? One of my oldest
friends works for the one of the major natural gas pipeline companies
and I posed the question about what happens when the electric power
fails a long time ago and he said they are self sufficient as I
described. I have seem the interior of pumping stations and it is very
clever how they set them up.

Our local gas utility also has a number of stations. The largest
one in
my area is near a pipeline river crossing in a wooded area where the
local system connects to the intrastate pipeline. There isn't electric
service within a half mile of there.

All's i'm saying is that they are not ALL that way. Some are electric,
some are NG turbine, and some are NG fueled internal combustion
engines.
But in the case of a wide spread electrical failure, you can bet the NG
would go down also. The control centers are not NG powered. I'd go with
propane if i had a backup generator. Just just my preference.


Why wouldn't the control center that houses the SCADA system not have
redundant power? That would be one of the main considerations when
designing such a system. The center I have seen has utility electric
power feeds and multiple CAT diesels and a big fuel tank. They even went
so far as to place a huge Jersey bank between the building and a
railroad track that isn't that close to prevent damage if there is a
train wreck.

We have experienced at least two long blackouts and the NG system kept
on humming because it was designed to work that way.

A friend of mine was in charge of the communications division of a power
company and that utility actually used their electrical power grid to
carry communication if the phone system went down. If you've ever been
in a phone company central office, you will have seen massive battery
banks taking up a whole large room or more. Data processing centers and
most ISP's have quite elaborate backup power systems that are constantly
tested and maintained. Most folks have now idea of the redundant power
systems they walk past every day. Last weekend I was installing some
network equipment in an office building and when I looked out the window
on the back side of the building, I saw two generators. The darn things
are everywhere.

TDD

I have seen many installations. One place I work at has dual electric
utility feeds that originate at different primaries, a huge battery room
and 3 huge CAT diesel generators.

What you mentioned is quite variable and depends on the ethic of the
company. Some are amazingly lame and are simply hoping nothing will happen.

People would be totally shocked at how Mickey Mouse many everyday
services they depend on are operated. For example if you use a tmobile
or AT&T phone pretty much all of their cell sites only have a tiny
backup battery. If the power goes down your cell service does very
shortly after. This is even more important since so many people have
dropped land lines. A good friend lives in an area higher than here that
is situated perfectly to catch a lot of ice during winter storms. He
mentioned his family went gaga over having iphones which currently only
work on AT&T. He laughed when I mentioned he may want to put a telephone
line back in the house. They had a massive ice storm the winter before
last and the power was off for 4 days. He said they lost AT&T cell
coverage very shortly after the power went off. VZW stayed up because
they fit each site with lots of battery and a generator.

There are penny pinching pencil pushers involved in those decisions and
they rule until they get slapped upside the head by lawyers. I imagine
your contract with your provider has a clause about acts of God or
terrorist attacks, um, I mean, man caused disasters. 8-)

TDD

On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 08:59:14 -0400, George wrote:

[snip]

They had a massive ice storm the winter before
last and the power was off for 4 days. He said they lost AT&T cell
coverage very shortly after the power went off. VZW stayed up because
they fit each site with lots of battery and a generator.

It was like that here during hurricane Ike. Power was off for 5 days.
AT&T cell phones didn't work but Verizon (both cell and landline) did.
Also, cable phone (Suddenlink) was off after 4 hours (backup battery
lasted that long).

--
83 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before. 'But he
has got nothing on,' said a little child."

Man, what a Christmas tree!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 10/3/2010 7:59 AM, George wrote:
On 10/3/2010 2:33 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:49 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:57 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 9:52 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:28 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:25 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:24 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"

[presents]

I've got a couple friends who have digital phone. When the power goes
out, they lose thier phone. I can't call them to see if they are OK,
cause the phone went out also. I ring. If someone answers, I know the
power is on.

Glad Verizon is fairly dependable. That's my cell phone carrier.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..



What you mentioned is quite variable and depends on the ethic of the
company. Some are amazingly lame and are simply hoping nothing will
happen.

People would be totally shocked at how Mickey Mouse many everyday
services they depend on are operated. For example if you use a
tmobile
or AT&T phone pretty much all of their cell sites only have a tiny
backup battery. If the power goes down your cell service does very
shortly after. This is even more important since so many people have
dropped land lines. A good friend lives in an area higher than here
that
is situated perfectly to catch a lot of ice during winter storms. He
mentioned his family went gaga over having iphones which currently
only
work on AT&T. He laughed when I mentioned he may want to put a
telephone
line back in the house. They had a massive ice storm the winter
before
last and the power was off for 4 days. He said they lost AT&T cell
coverage very shortly after the power went off. VZW stayed up
because
they fit each site with lots of battery and a generator.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Beach towns and barrier islands, sure. Go inland 10 miles and things
change. The point is that there will usually be gas available
somewhere in the area within hours or a few days, at the most. There
is no reason to stockpile a month's gasoline on premises.

Tell that to the four million Houstonians who were without power for almost
two weeks after Hurricane Yikes.

On 10/3/2010 12:44 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 09:04:04 -0400, wrote:

On 10/3/2010 12:31 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 15:15:31 -0400, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote the following:
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:24:12 -0400, Art wrote:


On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.

But, gasoline pumps need electricity,
also.


Long-term outages rarely cover a wide-area, except in perhaps a CA earthquake.

...or in the NE during a widespread heavy snow or ice storm, or
hurricane.

Nope. Outages are never widespread and long-lasting. Even when some homes
have been knocked out for three weeks, most have power restored in hours.

Guessing you have never been to the NE in the winter? How would you
restore service in hours when major parts of the infrastructure have
been taken down by ice and ice laden trees?

You're wrong. I lived in the NE (NY and VT) for over thirty years. We had
some rather bad storms, and as _I_SAID_, some were without power for weeks,
but there was no widespread and long-lasting power outages. Ever. Fuel was
always available in hours, even after the worst storms (like 12" of sloppy
stuff on Oct. 4, '77?).

...

OK, I got it, you are omniscient. So when the area (not just their
street or block or town) where my folks live (and friends 10 miles from
them) lost power for almost a week in a major ice storm because major
lines went down it was just a lie.

BTW what is tonight's winning lottery numbers and who will win all of
next weeks games?

On 10/3/2010 5:46 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/3/2010 7:59 AM, George wrote:
On 10/3/2010 2:33 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:49 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:57 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 9:52 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:28 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:25 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:24 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.
But, gasoline pumps need electricity, also. During a really long
outage,
I wonder how that would affect natural gas "delivery"?

The natural gas distribution system uses natural gas powered
turbines to
pressurize the lines so it would keep on humming.

LMAO!! better do some more homework.


Where would you suggest I start with the homework? One of my oldest
friends works for the one of the major natural gas pipeline companies
and I posed the question about what happens when the electric power
fails a long time ago and he said they are self sufficient as I
described. I have seem the interior of pumping stations and it is
very
clever how they set them up.

Our local gas utility also has a number of stations. The largest
one in
my area is near a pipeline river crossing in a wooded area where the
local system connects to the intrastate pipeline. There isn't
electric
service within a half mile of there.

All's i'm saying is that they are not ALL that way. Some are electric,
some are NG turbine, and some are NG fueled internal combustion
engines.
But in the case of a wide spread electrical failure, you can bet
the NG
would go down also. The control centers are not NG powered. I'd go
with
propane if i had a backup generator. Just just my preference.


Why wouldn't the control center that houses the SCADA system not have
redundant power? That would be one of the main considerations when
designing such a system. The center I have seen has utility electric
power feeds and multiple CAT diesels and a big fuel tank. They even
went
so far as to place a huge Jersey bank between the building and a
railroad track that isn't that close to prevent damage if there is a
train wreck.

We have experienced at least two long blackouts and the NG system kept
on humming because it was designed to work that way.

A friend of mine was in charge of the communications division of a power
company and that utility actually used their electrical power grid to
carry communication if the phone system went down. If you've ever been
in a phone company central office, you will have seen massive battery
banks taking up a whole large room or more. Data processing centers and
most ISP's have quite elaborate backup power systems that are constantly
tested and maintained. Most folks have now idea of the redundant power
systems they walk past every day. Last weekend I was installing some
network equipment in an office building and when I looked out the window
on the back side of the building, I saw two generators. The darn things
are everywhere.

TDD

I have seen many installations. One place I work at has dual electric
utility feeds that originate at different primaries, a huge battery room
and 3 huge CAT diesel generators.

What you mentioned is quite variable and depends on the ethic of the
company. Some are amazingly lame and are simply hoping nothing will
happen.

People would be totally shocked at how Mickey Mouse many everyday
services they depend on are operated. For example if you use a tmobile
or AT&T phone pretty much all of their cell sites only have a tiny
backup battery. If the power goes down your cell service does very
shortly after. This is even more important since so many people have
dropped land lines. A good friend lives in an area higher than here that
is situated perfectly to catch a lot of ice during winter storms. He
mentioned his family went gaga over having iphones which currently only
work on AT&T. He laughed when I mentioned he may want to put a telephone
line back in the house. They had a massive ice storm the winter before
last and the power was off for 4 days. He said they lost AT&T cell
coverage very shortly after the power went off. VZW stayed up because
they fit each site with lots of battery and a generator.

There are penny pinching pencil pushers involved in those decisions and
they rule until they get slapped upside the head by lawyers. I imagine
your contract with your provider has a clause about acts of God or
terrorist attacks, um, I mean, man caused disasters. 8-)

TDD

SLAs aren't involved with cell phones. So if the carrier cheaps out like
say AT&T or tmobile does I doubt folks would have recourse except they
have a nice paperweight for the duration.

If you try to explain stuff like emergency power you usually get the
same reaction as if you just told them a potato is growing out of their
ear so I just don't bother anymore.

On 10/4/2010 7:08 AM, George wrote:
On 10/3/2010 5:46 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/3/2010 7:59 AM, George wrote:
On 10/3/2010 2:33 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:49 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:57 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 9:52 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:28 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:25 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:24 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.
But, gasoline pumps need electricity, also. During a really long
outage,
I wonder how that would affect natural gas "delivery"?

The natural gas distribution system uses natural gas powered
turbines to
pressurize the lines so it would keep on humming.

LMAO!! better do some more homework.


Where would you suggest I start with the homework? One of my oldest
friends works for the one of the major natural gas pipeline
companies
and I posed the question about what happens when the electric power
fails a long time ago and he said they are self sufficient as I
described. I have seem the interior of pumping stations and it is
very
clever how they set them up.

Our local gas utility also has a number of stations. The largest
one in
my area is near a pipeline river crossing in a wooded area where the
local system connects to the intrastate pipeline. There isn't
electric
service within a half mile of there.

All's i'm saying is that they are not ALL that way. Some are
electric,
some are NG turbine, and some are NG fueled internal combustion
engines.
But in the case of a wide spread electrical failure, you can bet
the NG
would go down also. The control centers are not NG powered. I'd go
with
propane if i had a backup generator. Just just my preference.


Why wouldn't the control center that houses the SCADA system not have
redundant power? That would be one of the main considerations when
designing such a system. The center I have seen has utility electric
power feeds and multiple CAT diesels and a big fuel tank. They even
went
so far as to place a huge Jersey bank between the building and a
railroad track that isn't that close to prevent damage if there is a
train wreck.

We have experienced at least two long blackouts and the NG system kept
on humming because it was designed to work that way.

A friend of mine was in charge of the communications division of a
power
company and that utility actually used their electrical power grid to
carry communication if the phone system went down. If you've ever been
in a phone company central office, you will have seen massive battery
banks taking up a whole large room or more. Data processing centers and
most ISP's have quite elaborate backup power systems that are
constantly
tested and maintained. Most folks have now idea of the redundant power
systems they walk past every day. Last weekend I was installing some
network equipment in an office building and when I looked out the
window
on the back side of the building, I saw two generators. The darn things
are everywhere.

TDD

I have seen many installations. One place I work at has dual electric
utility feeds that originate at different primaries, a huge battery room
and 3 huge CAT diesel generators.

What you mentioned is quite variable and depends on the ethic of the
company. Some are amazingly lame and are simply hoping nothing will
happen.

People would be totally shocked at how Mickey Mouse many everyday
services they depend on are operated. For example if you use a tmobile
or AT&T phone pretty much all of their cell sites only have a tiny
backup battery. If the power goes down your cell service does very
shortly after. This is even more important since so many people have
dropped land lines. A good friend lives in an area higher than here that
is situated perfectly to catch a lot of ice during winter storms. He
mentioned his family went gaga over having iphones which currently only
work on AT&T. He laughed when I mentioned he may want to put a telephone
line back in the house. They had a massive ice storm the winter before
last and the power was off for 4 days. He said they lost AT&T cell
coverage very shortly after the power went off. VZW stayed up because
they fit each site with lots of battery and a generator.

There are penny pinching pencil pushers involved in those decisions and
they rule until they get slapped upside the head by lawyers. I imagine
your contract with your provider has a clause about acts of God or
terrorist attacks, um, I mean, man caused disasters. 8-)

TDD

SLAs aren't involved with cell phones. So if the carrier cheaps out like
say AT&T or tmobile does I doubt folks would have recourse except they
have a nice paperweight for the duration.

If you try to explain stuff like emergency power you usually get the
same reaction as if you just told them a potato is growing out of their
ear so I just don't bother anymore.

I installed a lot of generators back in the late 90's because people
were afraid all the electricity would fail because of Y2K and the
darned storms stirred up by the hurricanes. 8-)

TDD

On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 09:24:31 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I have an ETQ generator, which has served me well. Mine is a two
stroke gas mixer. Amazing, how quiet it is. The one time I needed it,
it ran a furnace for a friend of mine, when his power was off, in
bitter cold winter. Mine was about $150, delivered to my door. You can
buy a lot of gasoline for the $300 price difference.

Most cheap generators like mine, and like the one you linked. Are
designed for about 200 hours of runtime. Then, they are too worn out
to do much good. In my case, mine has about five hours runtime, since
2005, was it.... ?? when I bought it. Can't remember.

Propane appliances are supposed to run a lot more clean than gasoline.
As Mr. Ransley mentioned, natural gas generator is worth considering.
If you have NG, and if the NG is dependable, in your part of the
world.

How often is the power out? Do your neighbors have generators?
Generators are a high theft item. And they can be noisy. And your
neighbors may be jealous, and take it out by damaging or stealing your
generator.

Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway. No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a line
outside. Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

On Oct 4, 9:07*am, dgk wrote:
On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 09:24:31 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"



wrote:
I have an ETQ generator, which has served me well. Mine is a two
stroke gas mixer. Amazing, how quiet it is. The one time I needed it,
it ran a furnace for a friend of mine, when his power was off, in
bitter cold winter. Mine was about $150, delivered to my door. You can
buy a lot of gasoline for the $300 price difference.

Most cheap generators like mine, and like the one you linked. Are
designed for about 200 hours of runtime. Then, they are too worn out
to do much good. In my case, mine has about five hours runtime, since
2005, was it.... ?? when I bought it. Can't remember.

Propane appliances are supposed to run a lot more clean than gasoline.
As Mr. Ransley mentioned, natural gas generator is worth considering.
If you have NG, and if the NG is dependable, in your part of the
world.

How often is the power out? Do your neighbors have generators?
Generators are a high theft item. And they can be noisy. And your
neighbors may be jealous, and take it out by damaging or stealing your
generator.

Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway. No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a line
outside. Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

Why? A couple hundred bucks should cover the gas line; small potatoes
when considering the cost of a generator. Filling LP tanks would be a
RPITA and getting an LP gas company out in a disaster could be a real
problem. A gallon of LP is something close to 3/4 gallon of gasoline
(as a reference for the amount you're going to need). Gasoline would
be easier to lug.

Nice Christmas tree!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"George" wrote in message
...
On 10/3/2010 5:46 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/3/2010 7:59 AM, George wrote:
On 10/3/2010 2:33 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:49 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:57 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 9:52 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:28 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:25 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:24 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote


[presents]

I'm with you. Precious few people have any concept of power failures,
or any of the other survivalist ideas.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"George" wrote in message
...

SLAs aren't involved with cell phones. So if the carrier cheaps out
like
say AT&T or tmobile does I doubt folks would have recourse except they
have a nice paperweight for the duration.

If you try to explain stuff like emergency power you usually get the
same reaction as if you just told them a potato is growing out of
their
ear so I just don't bother anymore.

Y2K didn't do much except fuel the nega-doomers. The folks who
ridicule anyone who prepares for trouble. Hurricanes are still a
concern. And winter time storms. Freezing rain is what pulls down
power wires in my area.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

If you try to explain stuff like emergency power you usually get the
same reaction as if you just told them a potato is growing out of
their
ear so I just don't bother anymore.

I installed a lot of generators back in the late 90's because people
were afraid all the electricity would fail because of Y2K and the
darned storms stirred up by the hurricanes. 8-)

TDD

It sounds like a spare tank of propane is a very wise idea, if you buy
one of these. The fuel doesn't go stale while sitting, that's an
advantage.

I'd think that the extra cost of the generator would discourage me.
I'd get a cheaper generator, and a couple gascans to put in the shed.
Pour the gas in your car, and fill them back up at the gas station.
Twice a year to be certain you have good gasoline on hand.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dgk" wrote in message
...

I always have one tank hooked to the grill and one spare. I might keep
a second spare if I buy this. I don't intend to run it all the time -
just enough to keep my freezer frozen and maybe watch some TV. And, if
it is winter, make sure the furnace (natural gas) can run once in a
while.

Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway.

CY: A chain and padlock is a good idea. Also post an armed guard
(inside the house) for watch. Bring the generator in when not in use.
You'd be amazed. People drive around with car windows open to listen.
I know of two people in my area who have had generators stolen.

No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

CY: It's still very possible your neighbors will be jealous or angry.
In the modern socialist society, anyone who is better off, needs to be
pulled down. Sad, but that's the way of the world.

We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

CY: My approach is to look at the needs, and then find creative way to
meet them. Light? Flashlights. Light and heat? Fuel lamps like oil or
propane lanterns. Daylight? Go to bed earlier than usual.

I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a line
outside. Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

CY: I sure hope things work out well for you. I'm curious of a couple
things. Whcih generator do you buy? And is it quiet or noisy? Does it
run well? Does your TV work well, or does it have a bunch of snow in
the picture? How long did the fuel tank last? Please be kind enough to
write, again, on thsi list. Tell us how things work out for you.

dgk wrote:

Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway. No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

1. You'd be surprised at the people who drive around listening for
generators - their need is more urgent than yours.
2. The only purpose a "quite" generator serves is to make it easier for you
to hear your neighbor's generators.


We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

If you've got the extra money, go for it.


I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a line
outside.

Why not? Natural gas STARTS from the outside (generally). It's just as easy
to tap into a NG line as it is a water line; easier, in fact, because you
can do so by simply drilling a hole in the NG pipe.

Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

Propane CAN'T be easier since it involves a trip somewhere to get the tanks
filled. NG comes right to your house.

Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it
out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway. No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all
be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

1. You'd be surprised at the people who drive around listening for
generators - their need is more urgent than yours.

CY: And he may well be surprised how miserable his neighbors can be,
in times of crisis.

2. The only purpose a "quite" generator serves is to make it easier
for you
to hear your neighbor's generators.

CY: And also to be less likely to be stolen.


We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

If you've got the extra money, go for it.

CY: Always decisions to make.

I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a
line
outside.

Why not? Natural gas STARTS from the outside (generally). It's just as
easy
to tap into a NG line as it is a water line; easier, in fact, because
you
can do so by simply drilling a hole in the NG pipe.

CY: Many places have external meters, and that may be a good place to
tap off a NG line. The Home Depot near me has stationary NG
generators. Those look convenient, if money will permit. As for me, no
money to be had. So, a small gasoline generator will have to serve.

Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

Propane CAN'T be easier since it involves a trip somewhere to get the
tanks
filled. NG comes right to your house.

CY: In most parts of the world, the NG is totally dependable. Propane
can be used for cabins, and remote properties with no NG available.

On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:18:52 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Y2K didn't do much except fuel the nega-doomers. The folks who
ridicule anyone who prepares for trouble. Hurricanes are still a
concern. And winter time storms. Freezing rain is what pulls down
power wires in my area.

I'm in software and we busted our butt to make sure that nothing bad
happened. Lots of software changes, lots of tests with our customers,
and sure enough, Y2K comes and nothing goes wrong. But it sure would
have without all the work we put in.

On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:26:01 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:


Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway.

CY: A chain and padlock is a good idea. Also post an armed guard
(inside the house) for watch. Bring the generator in when not in use.
You'd be amazed. People drive around with car windows open to listen.
I know of two people in my area who have had generators stolen.

No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

CY: It's still very possible your neighbors will be jealous or angry.
In the modern socialist society, anyone who is better off, needs to be
pulled down. Sad, but that's the way of the world.

We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

CY: My approach is to look at the needs, and then find creative way to
meet them. Light? Flashlights. Light and heat? Fuel lamps like oil or
propane lanterns. Daylight? Go to bed earlier than usual.

I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a line
outside. Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

CY: I sure hope things work out well for you. I'm curious of a couple
things. Whcih generator do you buy? And is it quiet or noisy? Does it
run well? Does your TV work well, or does it have a bunch of snow in
the picture? How long did the fuel tank last? Please be kind enough to
write, again, on thsi list. Tell us how things work out for you.



Will do. I just checked the furnace and it's hooked directly into the
house wiring somehow, not into an easy-to-deal-with plug. The first
thing I need to do is take a better look at all those wires and see if
I can figure out how to connect it to the generator. If not
(probable), I'll need to hire an electrician. The whole idea goes out
the window if I can't run the furnace off it.

On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:48:39 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it
out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway. No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all
be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

1. You'd be surprised at the people who drive around listening for
generators - their need is more urgent than yours.

CY: And he may well be surprised how miserable his neighbors can be,
in times of crisis.

2. The only purpose a "quite" generator serves is to make it easier
for you
to hear your neighbor's generators.

CY: And also to be less likely to be stolen.


We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

If you've got the extra money, go for it.

CY: Always decisions to make.

I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a
line
outside.

Why not? Natural gas STARTS from the outside (generally). It's just as
easy
to tap into a NG line as it is a water line; easier, in fact, because
you
can do so by simply drilling a hole in the NG pipe.

CY: Many places have external meters, and that may be a good place to
tap off a NG line. The Home Depot near me has stationary NG
generators. Those look convenient, if money will permit. As for me, no
money to be had. So, a small gasoline generator will have to serve.

Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

Propane CAN'T be easier since it involves a trip somewhere to get the
tanks
filled. NG comes right to your house.

CY: In most parts of the world, the NG is totally dependable. Propane
can be used for cabins, and remote properties with no NG available.



I will look into running natural gas, but the main comes in the front
of the house so it would involve taping it near the rear, where the
furnace and hot water heater are. But the only way to run it out of
the house right now would be the dryer vent, and running a gas line
next to hot exhaust seems like a bad idea.

I liked the idea of propane because I already have propane tanks but
maybe a larger tank would be ok?

dgk wrote:
I will look into running natural gas, but the main comes in the front
of the house so it would involve taping it near the rear, where the
furnace and hot water heater are. But the only way to run it out of
the house right now would be the dryer vent, and running a gas line
next to hot exhaust seems like a bad idea.

I liked the idea of propane because I already have propane tanks but
maybe a larger tank would be ok?

1. You could tap into the line at the front of the house and bury a 3/8"
plastic hose six inches deep to the rear.

2. Uh, why can't you put another hole in your house in the vicinity of the
dryer exhaust? If you're worried about it, use 3/8" copper pipe inside the
dryer vent. The air from the dryer vent is plenty warm, but I wouldn't call
it "hot."

On 10/5/2010 1:41 PM, HeyBub wrote:
dgk wrote:
I will look into running natural gas, but the main comes in the front
of the house so it would involve taping it near the rear, where the
furnace and hot water heater are. But the only way to run it out of
the house right now would be the dryer vent, and running a gas line
next to hot exhaust seems like a bad idea.

I liked the idea of propane because I already have propane tanks but
maybe a larger tank would be ok?

1. You could tap into the line at the front of the house and bury a 3/8"
plastic hose six inches deep to the rear.

Then what would he use for the gas line since that size is too small for NG?


2. Uh, why can't you put another hole in your house in the vicinity of the
dryer exhaust? If you're worried about it, use 3/8" copper pipe inside the
dryer vent. The air from the dryer vent is plenty warm, but I wouldn't call
it "hot."


Is this in the harbor freight do it yourself manual?

George wrote:
On 10/5/2010 1:41 PM, HeyBub wrote:
dgk wrote:
I will look into running natural gas, but the main comes in the
front of the house so it would involve taping it near the rear,
where the furnace and hot water heater are. But the only way to run
it out of the house right now would be the dryer vent, and running
a gas line next to hot exhaust seems like a bad idea.

I liked the idea of propane because I already have propane tanks but
maybe a larger tank would be ok?

1. You could tap into the line at the front of the house and bury a
3/8" plastic hose six inches deep to the rear.

Then what would he use for the gas line since that size is too small
for NG?

Hmm. You may be right.

I note the gas line to the burners on my stove are, maybe, 1/4" and I know
the gas line to a gas yard light is 3/8.

I know ! I have "skinny" gas.

Alternatively, I meant to say 3/4".

Thanks for the field report. I would have continued on, thinking Y2K
was a false scare. Except that some people like yourself corrected me.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dgk" wrote in message
...

I'm in software and we busted our butt to make sure that nothing bad
happened. Lots of software changes, lots of tests with our customers,
and sure enough, Y2K comes and nothing goes wrong. But it sure would
have without all the work we put in.

I've used a three wire cord, cut off an appliance. (Preferably
appliance that someone else put to the curb.) I disconnected the
furnace, and wire nut it to the appliance cord.

Do this only if one has basic electrical knowledge. I had a job for
six years, as a furnace and HVAC installer. So, I got some training.

After the power cut, put the wiring back as it was. Safety rules
apply, disclaimers also apply. Do not use while taking a shower, or
while watering the garden. Remmber: After the power comes back on,
you're working with live wires.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dgk" wrote in message
...

Will do. I just checked the furnace and it's hooked directly into the
house wiring somehow, not into an easy-to-deal-with plug. The first
thing I need to do is take a better look at all those wires and see if
I can figure out how to connect it to the generator. If not
(probable), I'll need to hire an electrician. The whole idea goes out
the window if I can't run the furnace off it.

Most houses have some place where a contractor could drill through the
sill plate. Not a big deal. If you had a contractor install a
stationary NG generator, that's a routine way to handle it.

Near me, the propane companies have 100 pound "cooking gas" tanks, and
100 or 250 gal "heating gas" tanks. The price of the gas is different,
too.

Sounds like you've decided to get the portable LPG generator. Please
let us know how it works. Maybe some others on the list will purchase
the same generator, if it works well.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dgk" wrote in message
...

I will look into running natural gas, but the main comes in the front
of the house so it would involve taping it near the rear, where the
furnace and hot water heater are. But the only way to run it out of
the house right now would be the dryer vent, and running a gas line
next to hot exhaust seems like a bad idea.

I liked the idea of propane because I already have propane tanks but
maybe a larger tank would be ok?

HeyBub wrote the following:
dgk wrote:
Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway. No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

1. You'd be surprised at the people who drive around listening for
generators - their need is more urgent than yours.
2. The only purpose a "quite" generator serves is to make it easier for you
to hear your neighbor's generators.

We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

If you've got the extra money, go for it.

I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a line
outside.

Why not? Natural gas STARTS from the outside (generally). It's just as easy
to tap into a NG line as it is a water line; easier, in fact, because you
can do so by simply drilling a hole in the NG pipe.

Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

Propane CAN'T be easier since it involves a trip somewhere to get the tanks
filled. NG comes right to your house.



Some people don't have NG piped to their house. In those areas they may
have LP fired water heaters, ranges, ovens, clothes driers, and
fireplaces (as I do).
There would be a 100-200 gallon or larger LP tank outside the house.
In those cases, it would have to be a very long outage to run out of LP,
and even so, the LP is delivered.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On 10/5/2010 11:26 AM, dgk wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:18:52 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Y2K didn't do much except fuel the nega-doomers. The folks who
ridicule anyone who prepares for trouble. Hurricanes are still a
concern. And winter time storms. Freezing rain is what pulls down
power wires in my area.

I'm in software and we busted our butt to make sure that nothing bad
happened. Lots of software changes, lots of tests with our customers,
and sure enough, Y2K comes and nothing goes wrong. But it sure would
have without all the work we put in.

I remember changing out the BIOS in a number of computers to make them
compatible with the new date.

TDD

On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 12:41:02 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/5/2010 11:26 AM, dgk wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:18:52 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Y2K didn't do much except fuel the nega-doomers. The folks who
ridicule anyone who prepares for trouble. Hurricanes are still a
concern. And winter time storms. Freezing rain is what pulls down
power wires in my area.

I'm in software and we busted our butt to make sure that nothing bad
happened. Lots of software changes, lots of tests with our customers,
and sure enough, Y2K comes and nothing goes wrong. But it sure would
have without all the work we put in.

I remember changing out the BIOS in a number of computers to make them
compatible with the new date.

During the y2k rollover, I didn't have any ten year old computers. All of them
handled the year 2000 with no problem.

Did you finally get rid of those 80286 and 80386 systems you were using while
the rest of us were using Pentium Is, IIs and III's? Even 486 systems had no
problem with y2k.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Thanks for the field report. I would have continued on, thinking Y2K
was a false scare. Except that some people like yourself corrected me.

Only the doomsayers predicting the fixes undertaken wouldn't be adequate
raised fears...

As dgk says, there was a _LOT_ of effort invested for quite a long time
preceding just the year or so ahead to avoid any major problems.

I'm in (or was at the time, anyway) power generation and other
industrial controls -- many, many, controllers and other pieces of gear
one outside of the area might not even think as having computers or
time-bases in them were either upgraded, modified or replaced to ensure
the grid stayed online.

Needless to say, despite all the testing there was some apprehension as
the bewitching hour approached and a lot of folks were on standby for
the just in case a component somewhere acted up and threatened to start
any other potentially cascading event.

AFAIK within the electric utilities that were EPRI members there were
only a handful of very minor incidents; none that had any bearing on
actual operations.

--

On 10/6/2010 1:03 PM, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 12:41:02 -0500, The Daring wrote:
On 10/5/2010 11:26 AM, dgk wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:18:52 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Y2K didn't do much except fuel the nega-doomers. The folks who
ridicule anyone who prepares for trouble. Hurricanes are still a
concern. And winter time storms. Freezing rain is what pulls down
power wires in my area.

I'm in software and we busted our butt to make sure that nothing bad
happened. Lots of software changes, lots of tests with our customers,
and sure enough, Y2K comes and nothing goes wrong. But it sure would
have without all the work we put in.

I remember changing out the BIOS in a number of computers to make them
compatible with the new date.

During the y2k rollover, I didn't have any ten year old computers. All of them
handled the year 2000 with no problem.

Did you finally get rid of those 80286 and 80386 systems you were using while
the rest of us were using Pentium Is, IIs and III's? Even 486 systems had no
problem with y2k.

In the last few years I have actually had to service some systems still
running DOS 6.22. It's a good thing I hang onto old computers so I have
parts to fix the ancient machines. The new machines won't run DOS or the
old peripherals, different interrupts and such. It's funny, the old IBM
PC's were built like tanks. Yesterday I had to decommission an old IBM
server at a department store that had a 1998 date code on the hard
drive. The server even had a beige housing. 8-)

TDD

On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:22:02 -0400, willshak
wrote:

HeyBub wrote the following:
dgk wrote:
Many important points. These are small attached houses so the
neighbors are close. Not one of them would steal it and getting it out
of the backyard would be non-trivial anyway. No one else has a
generator. Still, I wouldn't want a very noisy one. But if it's
summer, I don't really need it as much. Winter the windows will all be
closed, which is when I would need it more.

1. You'd be surprised at the people who drive around listening for
generators - their need is more urgent than yours.
2. The only purpose a "quite" generator serves is to make it easier for you
to hear your neighbor's generators.

We've had a blackout three times this year, only one lasted even two
days but that got annoying enough for me to think about this.

If you've got the extra money, go for it.

I do have natural gas but wouldn't want to think about running a line
outside.

Why not? Natural gas STARTS from the outside (generally). It's just as easy
to tap into a NG line as it is a water line; easier, in fact, because you
can do so by simply drilling a hole in the NG pipe.

Propane seems much easier to deal with given the lack of real
need. Two spare tanks should cover any short term need.

Propane CAN'T be easier since it involves a trip somewhere to get the tanks
filled. NG comes right to your house.



Some people don't have NG piped to their house. In those areas they may
have LP fired water heaters, ranges, ovens, clothes driers, and
fireplaces (as I do).
There would be a 100-200 gallon or larger LP tank outside the house.
In those cases, it would have to be a very long outage to run out of LP,
and even so, the LP is delivered.

But I do have NG so it becomes a question. Still, I don't like the
idea of running a gas pipeline outside of the house. I don't think
it's a job for me which makes it expensive.

On 10/6/2010 11:59 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/6/2010 1:03 PM, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 12:41:02 -0500, The Daring
wrote:
On 10/5/2010 11:26 AM, dgk wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:18:52 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Y2K didn't do much except fuel the nega-doomers. The folks who
ridicule anyone who prepares for trouble. Hurricanes are still a
concern. And winter time storms. Freezing rain is what pulls down
power wires in my area.

I'm in software and we busted our butt to make sure that nothing bad
happened. Lots of software changes, lots of tests with our customers,
and sure enough, Y2K comes and nothing goes wrong. But it sure would
have without all the work we put in.

I remember changing out the BIOS in a number of computers to make them
compatible with the new date.

During the y2k rollover, I didn't have any ten year old computers. All
of them
handled the year 2000 with no problem.

Did you finally get rid of those 80286 and 80386 systems you were
using while
the rest of us were using Pentium Is, IIs and III's? Even 486 systems
had no
problem with y2k.

In the last few years I have actually had to service some systems still
running DOS 6.22. It's a good thing I hang onto old computers so I have
parts to fix the ancient machines. The new machines won't run DOS or the
old peripherals, different interrupts and such. It's funny, the old IBM
PC's were built like tanks. Yesterday I had to decommission an old IBM
server at a department store that had a 1998 date code on the hard
drive. The server even had a beige housing. 8-)

TDD
I've never seen an x86 machine that won't boot into 6.22 happily. I use
a 6.22 utility disk (on 3.5 floppy) to scrub used machines before I
reload them. Never played with the multiple-core unobtainium
processors- mebbe that is what you are talking about. Chained under my
desk at work, I have a now-considered-old Dell c640 laptop (that has
fallen off the inventory records somehow), that I use to program radios.
The radio service software won't run under any flavor of windows. All
the hard drive has on it is 6.22 and the Motorola software. They kept
trying to dispose of it on me, and I kept explaining I needed it to keep
THEIR old walkie-talkies running. Finally they stopped asking about it,
and on the dump from the next wall-to-wall inventory, I noticed it
wasn't there any more. I'm not gonna ask questions. They can figure it
out after I retire.

And I've still got stacks of beige around here, including the machine
I'm typing this on, a 2ghz p4 frankenstein made up out of dumpster parts
and the cheapest tower case NewEgg had 5-6 years ago.
--
aem sends...

On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 22:59:00 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote:

[snip]

In the last few years I have actually had to service some systems still
running DOS 6.22. It's a good thing I hang onto old computers so I have
parts to fix the ancient machines. The new machines won't run DOS or the
old peripherals, different interrupts and such.

My newest PC (CPU is "AMD Athlon(tm) II X3 435" triple core) will boot
and run DOS OK.

[snip]


TDD



--
79 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"COFFEE.EXE Missing - Insert Cup and Press Any Key to continue."

On 10/7/2010 5:29 PM, aemeijers wrote:
On 10/6/2010 11:59 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/6/2010 1:03 PM, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 12:41:02 -0500, The Daring
wrote:
On 10/5/2010 11:26 AM, dgk wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:18:52 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Y2K didn't do much except fuel the nega-doomers. The folks who
ridicule anyone who prepares for trouble. Hurricanes are still a
concern. And winter time storms. Freezing rain is what pulls down
power wires in my area.

I'm in software and we busted our butt to make sure that nothing bad
happened. Lots of software changes, lots of tests with our customers,
and sure enough, Y2K comes and nothing goes wrong. But it sure would
have without all the work we put in.

I remember changing out the BIOS in a number of computers to make them
compatible with the new date.

During the y2k rollover, I didn't have any ten year old computers. All
of them
handled the year 2000 with no problem.

Did you finally get rid of those 80286 and 80386 systems you were
using while
the rest of us were using Pentium Is, IIs and III's? Even 486 systems
had no
problem with y2k.

In the last few years I have actually had to service some systems still
running DOS 6.22. It's a good thing I hang onto old computers so I have
parts to fix the ancient machines. The new machines won't run DOS or the
old peripherals, different interrupts and such. It's funny, the old IBM
PC's were built like tanks. Yesterday I had to decommission an old IBM
server at a department store that had a 1998 date code on the hard
drive. The server even had a beige housing. 8-)

TDD
I've never seen an x86 machine that won't boot into 6.22 happily. I use
a 6.22 utility disk (on 3.5 floppy) to scrub used machines before I
reload them. Never played with the multiple-core unobtainium processors-
mebbe that is what you are talking about. Chained under my desk at work,
I have a now-considered-old Dell c640 laptop (that has fallen off the
inventory records somehow), that I use to program radios. The radio
service software won't run under any flavor of windows. All the hard
drive has on it is 6.22 and the Motorola software. They kept trying to
dispose of it on me, and I kept explaining I needed it to keep THEIR old
walkie-talkies running. Finally they stopped asking about it, and on the
dump from the next wall-to-wall inventory, I noticed it wasn't there any
more. I'm not gonna ask questions. They can figure it out after I retire.

And I've still got stacks of beige around here, including the machine
I'm typing this on, a 2ghz p4 frankenstein made up out of dumpster parts
and the cheapest tower case NewEgg had 5-6 years ago.

It's not that it won't boot, it the application software. The timing is
all off without screwing with the clock speeds, etc. My service laptop
is a Dell Latitude C600 because it has a real serial port for router
and telephone systems programing. I was programing Motorola hand held
radios back in the late 80's when I worked for a contractor at a missile
range, it was a pain to get a copy of the software but I managed it.
It's probably the same software you have because unlike consumer crap,
those old Motorola walkie talkies are darn near indestructible which
is why there are a lot of 30 year old radios hanging off belts of law
enforcement and construction personnel. I tried looking up those old
Motorola radios but I don't remember the model numbers. We used the
mobiles in the trucks that needed the same software if I remember to
program them. Too much to try to remember, it makes my head hurt. 8-)

TDD