On 10/3/2010 2:33 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:49 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:57 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 9:52 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 10:28 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:25 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2010 8:24 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Dean Hoffman"
wrote

I wonder how long it will run on the
size of tank you have. You might spend
a lot of time getting fuel.
There are many for sale on Ebay also.

Assuming you can get fuel during a big
outage. Propane bulk tanks use an
electric pump to transfer. I like the
idea of propane over gas though.
But, gasoline pumps need electricity, also. During a really long
outage,
I wonder how that would affect natural gas "delivery"?

The natural gas distribution system uses natural gas powered
turbines to
pressurize the lines so it would keep on humming.

LMAO!! better do some more homework.


Where would you suggest I start with the homework? One of my oldest
friends works for the one of the major natural gas pipeline companies
and I posed the question about what happens when the electric power
fails a long time ago and he said they are self sufficient as I
described. I have seem the interior of pumping stations and it is very
clever how they set them up.

Our local gas utility also has a number of stations. The largest one in
my area is near a pipeline river crossing in a wooded area where the
local system connects to the intrastate pipeline. There isn't electric
service within a half mile of there.

All's i'm saying is that they are not ALL that way. Some are electric,
some are NG turbine, and some are NG fueled internal combustion engines.
But in the case of a wide spread electrical failure, you can bet the NG
would go down also. The control centers are not NG powered. I'd go with
propane if i had a backup generator. Just just my preference.


Why wouldn't the control center that houses the SCADA system not have
redundant power? That would be one of the main considerations when
designing such a system. The center I have seen has utility electric
power feeds and multiple CAT diesels and a big fuel tank. They even went
so far as to place a huge Jersey bank between the building and a
railroad track that isn't that close to prevent damage if there is a
train wreck.

We have experienced at least two long blackouts and the NG system kept
on humming because it was designed to work that way.

A friend of mine was in charge of the communications division of a power
company and that utility actually used their electrical power grid to
carry communication if the phone system went down. If you've ever been
in a phone company central office, you will have seen massive battery
banks taking up a whole large room or more. Data processing centers and
most ISP's have quite elaborate backup power systems that are constantly
tested and maintained. Most folks have now idea of the redundant power
systems they walk past every day. Last weekend I was installing some
network equipment in an office building and when I looked out the window
on the back side of the building, I saw two generators. The darn things
are everywhere.

TDD

I have seen many installations. One place I work at has dual electric
utility feeds that originate at different primaries, a huge battery room
and 3 huge CAT diesel generators.

What you mentioned is quite variable and depends on the ethic of the
company. Some are amazingly lame and are simply hoping nothing will happen.

People would be totally shocked at how Mickey Mouse many everyday
services they depend on are operated. For example if you use a tmobile
or AT&T phone pretty much all of their cell sites only have a tiny
backup battery. If the power goes down your cell service does very
shortly after. This is even more important since so many people have
dropped land lines. A good friend lives in an area higher than here that
is situated perfectly to catch a lot of ice during winter storms. He
mentioned his family went gaga over having iphones which currently only
work on AT&T. He laughed when I mentioned he may want to put a telephone
line back in the house. They had a massive ice storm the winter before
last and the power was off for 4 days. He said they lost AT&T cell
coverage very shortly after the power went off. VZW stayed up because
they fit each site with lots of battery and a generator.