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#1
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? |
#2
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? Because it's impractical and adds to the expense. Besides that it wouldn't make a huge difference in the economics of operation seeing you are not cooling more than 30 cubic feet for a home fridge. When you consider commercial refrigerators/walk in coolers and freezers and refrigerated displays in grocery stores, 99 percent of those have a remote condensing unit. |
#3
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 28, 10:54*am, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote: I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? A little more expensive? The cost of the install of a coventional refrigerator is zero, you just plug it in. I replaced mine last year with a 23 cft side by side with water and ice at the door. Operating cost is about $95 a year. How much do you think you're going to save in operating costs by moving the condenser outside? In many houses you'd have to run how many feet of refrigerant tubing to get from the fridge to a suitable location to house the outside unit? Factor in installation costs (see the other thread here about permitting requirements for similar installs) a more complex system, more points of failure, shorter life due to exposure to the elements and you clearly have a non-starter. Also, what happens when it's 10 degrees outside? A regular refrigerator won't operate below a certain ambient temperature because of issues with the refrigerant and compressor. Cost, complexity and reliability.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#4
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? If my freezer wasn't dumping hot air into the kitchen then for the 6 months it's cold outside I'd just be paying to heat that room by other means anyway. Besides, any modern bells-and-whistles replacement would likely be built in a country with a poor environmental record, shipped halfway around the world to me, and be built to the same ****ty standards as everything seems to be these days - such that it has a lifespan better measured in months rather than decades, and I'd be buying another one quickly, then another... |
#5
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
blueman wrote in :
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? Because neighbors with a grudge would eat hard boiled eggs and chili, back their ass up to the intake and let 'er rip. |
#6
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 28, 12:54*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote: I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? Cost, complexity and reliability.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yes: Cool idea. Maybe.If fridges could draw in (and exchange) cool outside air instead of using electrcity. But some refrigeration and air controls would still be needed. Not sure the saving would be significant if at all? And with existing conventional electric fridges! Within the house all the electricity used by the fridge ends up as heat. In our cool Newfoundland climate some heating is needed most months of the year. So in a house that is electrically heated (as most are these days) the fridge heat merely replaces that from the electric heaters or other means used for heating the home. A fridge is basically an electric motor driving a pump that takes heat out of the inside of the fridge and pumps it into those coils on the back of the fridge. It's a heat pump. The motor also wastes some of it's input (nothing is 100% efficient); it gets a little warm and that heat stays within the house. By putting say the coils outside might mean the fridge would run less, thus saving electricity. But outside during a cold winter would basically waste that heat outdoors. Warmth that originally leaked into the fridge from the house and/or every time its door was opened, being pumped outdoors. Same thing as running an air conditioner except in this case it's only the fridge interior that is being cooled not a room! And since a 300 watt fridge can pump something say of the order of 1000 watts of heat; better IMO in cold weather to keep all the energy used by the whole system within the house. In a very hot climate the idea 'might' have some merit, if the cost/ complexity was reasonable? But pumping fridge heat outside into say 30 or 40 Celsius (90 to 110 F) atmosphere (Does it EVER get that warm here?) outside might mean the fridge would have to run longer; thus using more electrcity! Overall the best course might be to have bulk of ones house underground and utilize any/all sources of energy (mainly electricity these days) entering it as a source of warmth. One of the bigger 'wasters' at moment being clothes dryers which chuck their warm damp air outside. But anywhere else in the home that moisture can cause mould/rot. That's why ventilation (especially attics) is so important. Have seen a few homes here where there was a cold room built out fom the basement, say under the front steps that stayed something close to the temperature of a typical fridge. Useful for beer, potatos etc. |
#7
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
Have seen a few homes here where there was a cold room built out fom
the basement, say under the front steps that stayed something close to the temperature of a typical fridge. Useful for beer, potatos etc.- Hide quoted text - I have a 30 pack of beer on my back porch right now. 35 deg F. I have often thought the OP's question was a good one. Good answers. |
#8
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 28, 10:39*am, blueman wrote:
Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Because it would be too difficult to remove dead mice from behind the fridge. |
#9
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:00:05 -0500, Tony
wrote: [snip] A refrigerator in a closed environment (in a home) will not only use electric to keep it cold on the inside, but 100% of it's losses are heat that is put into the home. You can't make anything cold. Sure you can. It generates electricity too. You just need to reverse entropy. THAT is what you can't do. [snip] |
#10
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? *You reminded me of something that I saw in several homes and apartments in Sweden many, many years ago. In the kitchens they had a dedicated cabinet that had a vent pipe to the outside. This made the cabinet cold enough to keep things fresh, but not frozen. The winters are cold, dark and long there so these cabinets could be used for many months. |
#11
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 28, 9:39*am, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? It would be real complex and an expensive instal, it would almost have to be a frige and exterior wall section sold as a unit, so when its a certain point above inside room temp outside it wont be as efficent as the cooler inside air cooling the coil and it would have to know if AC is on to decide for it self what to do.It would have to computinside, outside temps, AC on or off, heat on or of, so how does it switch back and forth to use inside or outside air, and insulate and seal the opening to withstand winters cold and wind to high R values. It could be done but a frige would cost thousands and would you ever get a payback. I could see some custom room frige using outside air in winter with vents that operate by thermostat, that would cost little. In alaska the have real efficent friges, the outdoors. |
#12
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? CY: It does make sense, to me. It would be possible to put the refrig backed up to external wall. Some kind of gasket around the exterior of the fridge. Draw outdoor air for the condensor. Winter time, that would provide better cooling. Summer, to dump the heat outdoors. Window AC do that. Why not refrigerators? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. CY: I suspect you mean condensor coils, but I know what you mean. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? CY: Coordination between fridge makers, and home builders, comes to mind. |
#13
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
It's much less than 99%, but the numbers are signifigant.
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. Jeff The Drunk wrote in message ... On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500 When you consider commercial refrigerators/walk in coolers and freezers and refrigerated displays in grocery stores, 99 percent of those have a remote condensing unit. |
#14
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 28, 9:39*am, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? The electrical operating expense of a domestic refrigerator isnt high enough to justify modding it as you described. If you could find a suitable way to bring in cold outdoor air into the fridge while exhausting the fridge interior during winter months, it would save some money . Im sure someone has tried it at some time in the past. |
#15
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
Jeff The Drunk wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote: I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? Because it's impractical and adds to the expense. Besides that it wouldn't make a huge difference in the economics of operation seeing you are not cooling more than 30 cubic feet for a home fridge. A home refrig is really a simple system. When you consider commercial refrigerators/walk in coolers and freezers and refrigerated displays in grocery stores, 99 percent of those have a remote condensing unit. I heard over 20 years ago that large grocery stores vent the condenser heat to outside in the summer - the refrigeration does some of the space cooling. In the winter they capture the heat and blow it back into the store for space heating. -- bud-- |
#16
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
John Grabowski wrote:
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? *You reminded me of something that I saw in several homes and apartments in Sweden many, many years ago. In the kitchens they had a dedicated cabinet that had a vent pipe to the outside. This made the cabinet cold enough to keep things fresh, but not frozen. The winters are cold, dark and long there so these cabinets could be used for many months. when i lived in sweden, we kept a lot of the fridge stuff outside, and all of the freezer stuff. especially the vodka bottles. |
#17
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
Harry L wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:00:05 -0500, Tony wrote: [snip] A refrigerator in a closed environment (in a home) will not only use electric to keep it cold on the inside, but 100% of it's losses are heat that is put into the home. You can't make anything cold. Sure you can. It generates electricity too. You just need to reverse entropy. THAT is what you can't do. Does that sort of mean you can make something cold, but you can't? Or maybe you just don't know how to yet? |
#18
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
That is a *very* good question!
I would say the answer is that in the past, it has not mattered. Electric rates have been low in the past and it would have been silly to bother. But now the electric and energy rates are quite high, so time to think about these things... This is something I have thought about and would like to incorporate into my kitchen design when I remodel it. Basically it would be with the design of the house, not the refrigerator. I would place the refrigerator on an outside wall. Perhaps build a "compartment" for it sort of like a closet. Just the front doors showing through. Then upper and lower vents on the outside wall so the cold outside air could circulate around the refrigerator in the winter. And fine mesh screen over these vents so bugs can't crawl in. Maybe be able to close these vents if it gets too cold outside so the refrigerator portion will not go below freezing. I do have my freezer in the garage and it is quite cold out there in the winter. It runs very little. Note that if you have electric heating, it would be pointless to do this. The heat from the refrigerator would help to heat the house. So in that case no point in venting it to the outside. And in the summer it would get tricky. I have not thought about this. But you could be paying to cool the house. And there might be times when it is very hot outside. Other times it would be cooler outside. Perhaps use the cool inside air as an intake for the coils of the refrigerator, but vent the warm output air to the outside? But if cooler outside at night than in the house, switch to using outside air. And use the cool inside air to surround the refrigerator if that is cooler than outside. "blueman" wrote in message I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? |
#19
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? We have not seen this because a practical design has not yet been considered. I'd like to use the 55-degree water from my spring-fed pond to cool my house during hot summer days, but it is easier just to get into the pond. If you want an efficent refrigerator, the one with the thickest insulation is the one to get. |
#20
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 28, 9:39*am, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? If you want to take full advantage of freezing temperatures: move frozen items to outside and use a thermoelectric cooler for the rest. |
#21
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
There are water cooled condensors on the market. It might
not be cost effective to build a system using such. A commercial refrigeratiron company can build something. Or, you can run the cold water through automtove radiator, and use a fan to blow air through the fins. Return the warmer water to the pond. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Phisherman" wrote in message ... We have not seen this because a practical design has not yet been considered. I'd like to use the 55-degree water from my spring-fed pond to cool my house during hot summer days, but it is easier just to get into the pond. If you want an efficent refrigerator, the one with the thickest insulation is the one to get. |
#22
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:40:13 -0500, Tony
wrote: Harry L wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:00:05 -0500, Tony wrote: [snip] A refrigerator in a closed environment (in a home) will not only use electric to keep it cold on the inside, but 100% of it's losses are heat that is put into the home. You can't make anything cold. Sure you can. It generates electricity too. You just need to reverse entropy. THAT is what you can't do. Does that sort of mean you can make something cold, but you can't? Or maybe you just don't know how to yet? The appropriate negentropic universe is at subchronon offset SC.768564000007 precisely. However very strange things happen when you run refrigerant lines into that. BTW, consider that negentropic universes DON'T CARE if you don't know what "negentropic" means. |
#23
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. IIUC they tried this with air conditioning and it didnt' work. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? All kidding aside, I think you have a very good idea, actually. The one problem I see is that if the condenser were only outside, in the hot summer it would be hard and/or electrically-expensive to get it cold in the fridge. And I don't know an easy way to switch condensers with the season**. I wonder what they do in areas very north or very south when it is always or almost always less than 70 degrees outside. Surely, at polar locations, where fuel must be hard to import, they don't waste fuel the way fridges do (or do they?) in the USA in the winter. The fuel isn't really wasted in that the fridge heats the home. It does so electrically which is expensive, but in polar outposts, maybe all heat is electric? I don't know what they use. **The way around this for home heating cooling is to have the condensor outside and the furnace inside, but people use heat pumps in Maryland and areas south of here. I turn the vent from my clothes dryer to vent outside in the summer and inside in the winter, but that's a lot simpler than redoing a condenser connection. (Yes, I know some people here think that causes humidity problems in the house but it doesnt' for me. Most houses are dry in the winter and that's why they put humidifiers on furnaces.) |
#24
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 29, 3:15*pm, "Bill" wrote:
That is a *very* good question! I would say the answer is that in the past, it has not mattered. Electric rates have been low in the past and it would have been silly to bother. But now the electric and energy rates are quite high, so time to think about these things... And I'd say it still matter not a wit. As I previously posted, the TOTAL annual electric usage of a new 23 cft refrigerator, with ice and water at the door is around $95. And that's here in NJ, with electricity around 17c KWH. So, where is the big savings to be had? This is something I have thought about and would like to incorporate into my kitchen design when I remodel it. Basically it would be with the design of the house, not the refrigerator. I would place the refrigerator on an outside wall. Perhaps build a "compartment" for it sort of like a closet. Just the front doors showing through. Then upper and lower vents on the outside wall so the cold outside air could circulate around the refrigerator in the winter. And fine mesh screen over these vents so bugs can't crawl in. Maybe be able to close these vents if it gets too cold outside so the refrigerator portion will not go below freezing. And I'll bet that by the time it's all done. you'll LOSE money because: A - There will be enough leakage of air and energy that more than offset the gain B - The incremental cost of installing and maintaining all this nonsense is more than you gain. Then whe have little issues like people don't want to design their kitchen around your idea of where the refrigerator has to go instead of just putting the fridge where it makes the most sense ergonomically, just to save $5 a year. I do have my freezer in the garage and it is quite cold out there in the winter. It runs very little. Note that if you have electric heating, it would be pointless to do this. The heat from the refrigerator would help to heat the house. So in that case no point in venting it to the outside. More illogical conclusions. It doesn't matter whether the house is heated with electric, heat pump, gas or a wood stove. The only issue is in the grand scheme of things is $5 or $10 a year worth it? And in the summer it would get tricky. I have not thought about this. Obviously But you could be paying to cool the house. And there might be times when it is very hot outside. Other times it would be cooler outside. Perhaps use the cool inside air as an intake for the coils of the refrigerator, but vent the warm output air to the outside? But if cooler outside at night than in the house, switch to using outside air. And use the cool inside air to surround the refrigerator if that is cooler than outside. And how much is that whole system going to cost compared to the small savings? My fridge uses a whopping $95 a year in electricity. Geez, now I know why Best Buy sells so many extended warranty contracts. |
#25
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
As I previously posted, the
TOTAL annual electric usage of a new 23 cft refrigerator, with ice and water at the door is around $95. And that's here in NJ, with electricity around 17c KWH. So, where is the big savings to be had? My last electric bill for one month was $26! 10 years ago my electric bill was $150 a month. How did I reduce my electric bill? I know how to add! There was not any one thing which greatly reduced my electric bill. Rather *many* things combined which ADD up to that savings. And this is something people don't understand these days. That small things add up. Same with spending. Buy a soda pop at a store once a day for $1 and they say that is just a dollar. (It is actually $365 a year!) But I assure you large billion dollar corporations know how to add. The guys who get the big bucks there know how to search for a penny to be saved per transaction. If the corporation has 300 retail outlets and each retail outlet has 5,000 transactions per day, and they are saving a penny per transaction, that is $50 per store per day! $15,000 for all 300 stores per day! $5,475,000 per year! (All from saving a penny!) It adds up... Learn how to add, you will save quite a bit! |
#26
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:44:45 -0800, "Bill"
wrote: As I previously posted, the TOTAL annual electric usage of a new 23 cft refrigerator, with ice and water at the door is around $95. And that's here in NJ, with electricity around 17c KWH. So, where is the big savings to be had? My last electric bill for one month was $26! 10 years ago my electric bill was $150 a month. How did I reduce my electric bill? I know how to add! I'll bite. Give us the figures you added-- or subtracted. What were your electrical appliances then and how much did they use, and what are they now & how much do they use? My bill runs between $200-300 a month, but I'm not complaining. The convenience it supplies is worth every penny to me. But tell us what you've done to save so much. Jim [BTW- I don't think that $26 would keep you connected to the grid in my part of the world.] |
#27
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
...tell us what you've done to save so much.
Oh geeze... What haven't I done! This has been an ongoing project over 10 years. Let's see... Redesigned a "room full of single pane windows" to fewer windows and replaced with double pane energy star windows. Installed insulation. Replaced all bulbs with CFL's Replaced all appliances with new energy star appliances. Installed woodstove. Rewired doorbell to only use electricity when the button is pressed. Replaced 3 old window air conditioners with 1 new energy star window air conditioner (with new windows and insulation - just one keeps house cool now!) Installed two 50 gallon water tanks next to woodstove. The heat from the woodstove gives me hot water in winter! (My electric hot water tank has been turned off since October.) Power strips or switches on everything electronic. Turn off when not in use. And this means almost everything these days. Every single gadget with an electronic control always uses a small amount of electricity. Blender, HEPA air filter, coffee maker, phone, fan, you name it! And of course turn off TV/stereo/playstation/VCR/DVD, etc. Also I have individual switches on each of these. I only turn on what is needed. Like just TV and VCR - then playstation, DVD, stereo off. I don't have paid TV as I like to read books, so no problem turning off the whole works when not in use. (If you have paid TV, leave the cable box ON!) Switch to turn off garage door opener when not in use. Switch off TV antenna amplifier when not in use. All phones are unplugged from power except answering machine phone. Wired phones will still work without power. Switches on rechargers like for cell phone, cordless rechargers, etc. These are switched off or unplugged when not in use. Switch for microwave. Off when not in use. (These use more electricity when off than on. The clock is always on and this uses more electricity than you use to periodically heat something up. It adds up to leave something on 24/7!) Disconnected the clock on the electric range. For cooking I place pots of water on the woodstove to heat them up. Then bring to boiling on the electric range. Only a few seconds more of heat to get to boiling. Then back to woodstove to cook. If I have a big pot of stew or whatever, I place it outside to cool down first before I place it in the refrigerator. Then I bought GFCI receptacles which have one outlet and a switch. I wired the switch to turn off the GFCI outlet when not being used. Even the GFCI outlets always use a small amount of electricity. I have a separate power strip for my computer printer. I turn this off when not using the printer, but using the computer. (Always uses electricity when plugged in.) Everything I do lately is paid for with the money I am saving from my previous energy saving projects, so it costs me nothing basically to buy switches, power strips, etc. And this all started out as a fun challenging project. The electric company kept raising my rates. So each time I would find a way to lower my bill back down. My future projects will be to get hot water in the summer (from the sun) and solar electricity. My electric use is so small now, the solar electric will not require very much power. On parasitic loads... http://enduse.lbl.gov/info/ACEEE-Leaking.pdf |
#28
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
In article , Bill wrote:
A large number of ways to reduce electricity consumption, including but not limited to disconnecting from power when-not-in-use the many things that draw half a watt to a dozen watts when not doing anything, including: Switch for microwave. Off when not in use. (These use more electricity when off than on. The clock is always on and this uses more electricity than you use to periodically heat something up. It adds up to leave something on 24/7!) My microwave clock, including the power supply stuff for the microwave's control electronics, draws 1 to 2 watts (reads 1 watt on my Kill-A-Watt meter). If 2 watts is the case, then it draws 48 watt-hours in a day. That is 20 cents a month or a bit more, almost $2.50 per year, with my electric rate in suburban Philadelphia. I would switch it off with a power strip when not in use, except that I like to have that clock on. Although your other posted material makes sense and I agree with it including disconnecting those low-power continuously-running loads, I take issue with the microwave consuming more energy when not being used than it does when it is being used. My microwave consumes maybe 48 watt-hours per day when it is not being used. It consumes a good 1300 watts when it is heating something up at full power. That amounts to 48 watt-hours in 2 minutes 13 seconds. On the other hand, if I did not powerstrip-switch my printer, it probably would consume more energy when it is not being used than it does when it is. - Don Klipstein ) |
#29
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
"Bill" writes:
...tell us what you've done to save so much. Oh geeze... What haven't I done! This has been an ongoing project over 10 years. Let's see... Redesigned a "room full of single pane windows" to fewer windows and replaced with double pane energy star windows. Installed insulation. Replaced all bulbs with CFL's Replaced all appliances with new energy star appliances. Installed woodstove. Rewired doorbell to only use electricity when the button is pressed. Replaced 3 old window air conditioners with 1 new energy star window air conditioner (with new windows and insulation - just one keeps house cool now!) Installed two 50 gallon water tanks next to woodstove. The heat from the woodstove gives me hot water in winter! (My electric hot water tank has been turned off since October.) Power strips or switches on everything electronic. Turn off when not in use. And this means almost everything these days. Every single gadget with an electronic control always uses a small amount of electricity. Blender, HEPA air filter, coffee maker, phone, fan, you name it! And of course turn off TV/stereo/playstation/VCR/DVD, etc. Also I have individual switches on each of these. I only turn on what is needed. Like just TV and VCR - then playstation, DVD, stereo off. I don't have paid TV as I like to read books, so no problem turning off the whole works when not in use. (If you have paid TV, leave the cable box ON!) Switch to turn off garage door opener when not in use. Switch off TV antenna amplifier when not in use. All phones are unplugged from power except answering machine phone. Wired phones will still work without power. Switches on rechargers like for cell phone, cordless rechargers, etc. These are switched off or unplugged when not in use. Switch for microwave. Off when not in use. (These use more electricity when off than on. The clock is always on and this uses more electricity than you use to periodically heat something up. It adds up to leave something on 24/7!) Disconnected the clock on the electric range. For cooking I place pots of water on the woodstove to heat them up. Then bring to boiling on the electric range. Only a few seconds more of heat to get to boiling. Then back to woodstove to cook. If I have a big pot of stew or whatever, I place it outside to cool down first before I place it in the refrigerator. Then I bought GFCI receptacles which have one outlet and a switch. I wired the switch to turn off the GFCI outlet when not being used. Even the GFCI outlets always use a small amount of electricity. I have a separate power strip for my computer printer. I turn this off when not using the printer, but using the computer. (Always uses electricity when plugged in.) Everything I do lately is paid for with the money I am saving from my previous energy saving projects, so it costs me nothing basically to buy switches, power strips, etc. And this all started out as a fun challenging project. The electric company kept raising my rates. So each time I would find a way to lower my bill back down. My future projects will be to get hot water in the summer (from the sun) and solar electricity. My electric use is so small now, the solar electric will not require very much power. On parasitic loads... http://enduse.lbl.gov/info/ACEEE-Leaking.pdf Very interesting list... - Some are useful and significant to all (like turning off printers or using Energy Star appliances) - Others are more about general energy saving than just electricity for those of us who heat our house or water with gas or oil (such as insulation) - Some may save power but there is a big trade-off in convenience like switching pot from wood stove to electric stove -- or even the whole bother of maintaining a wood stove vs. running a clean, efficient gas furnace. Also, I think many of us just value our time more than turning off every single last wall-wart. - And some I think save such trivial amounts of electricity that you will never payback the cost of the switch let alone the cost of your time and the hassle factor -- shutting off a GFCI comes to mind as an example. Not criticizing what you have done -- and it sounds like you enjoy the challenge. Just saying that some of the things you have done are either not relevant, not practical, not significant, or not worth the hassle to the average Joe... |
#30
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 28, 10:39*am, blueman wrote:
Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? The "beer fridge" at my parents' house is "designed" to do just that... It's out in the unheated wood shed. It barely, if ever runs, from November to April, and during the warm months it contributes nothing to the cooling load of the house. It's not real convenient to keep food in there, though. Need an egg? You gotta walk clear across the house and out the back door to get from the kitchen to the fridge. |
#31
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 28, 5:30*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? *You reminded me of something that I saw in several homes and apartments in Sweden many, many years ago. *In the kitchens they had a dedicated cabinet that had a vent pipe to the outside. *This made the cabinet cold enough to keep things fresh, but not frozen. *The winters are cold, dark and long there so these cabinets could be used for many months.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "In Sweden...In the kitchens they had a dedicated cabinet that had a vent pipe to the outside." When I was in the Coast Guard and stationed in Alaska, the windows in our sleeping quarters were sealed shut, but there were 3 or 4 holes in the bottom of the wooden sashes. The holes were filled with corks that could be removed for fresh air. I (as well as many others) removed the corks and screwed a styrofoam lined wooden box to the window sill. The box had a hinged door and was big enough room to hold a six-pack of your favorite beverage. I used to enjoy the Miller nips (7-oz bottles). On the coldest days, I could come back to my room, put a couple of warm beers in the box and by the time I had washed up and changed into my civvies, the beers would be ice cold. You had to be careful...you could freeze a 12 oz can in under 10 minutes on some days. |
#32
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:44:45 -0800, "Bill"
wrote: As I previously posted, the TOTAL annual electric usage of a new 23 cft refrigerator, with ice and water at the door is around $95. And that's here in NJ, with electricity around 17c KWH. So, where is the big savings to be had? My last electric bill for one month was $26! 10 years ago my electric bill was $150 a month. How did I reduce my electric bill? I know how to add! There was not any one thing which greatly reduced my electric bill. Rather *many* things combined which ADD up to that savings. And this is something people don't understand these days. That small things add up. Same with spending. Buy a soda pop at a store once a day for $1 and they say that is just a dollar. (It is actually $365 a year!) But I assure you large billion dollar corporations know how to add. The guys who get the big bucks there know how to search for a penny to be saved per transaction. If the corporation has 300 retail outlets and each retail outlet has 5,000 transactions per day, and they are saving a penny per transaction, that is $50 per store per day! $15,000 for all 300 stores per day! $5,475,000 per year! (All from saving a penny!) It adds up... Learn how to add, you will save quite a bit! My city sells electricity. The problem with it is the kilowatt hours costs $80 but the total bill is over $150. Over time, the city decided to include water usage in the bill. Then based on the water usage you got a sewer charge added, about double that of the water bill (I know you can water the lawn and not use the sewer, but that doesn't count). Last year they decided in lew of higher property taxes they added the garbage collection to the bill, whether you put out garbage or not. Having one bill is convenient, but these local politicians are thinking all day long how to add another charge. Now can anyone explain my land-line phone bill? |
#33
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Jan 31, 10:39*pm, (Don Klipstein) wrote:
In article , Bill wrote: A large number of ways to reduce electricity consumption, including but not limited to disconnecting from power when-not-in-use the many things that draw half a watt to a dozen watts when not doing anything, including: Switch for microwave. Off when not in use. (These use more electricity when off than on. The clock is always on and this uses more electricity than you use to periodically heat something up. It adds up to leave something on 24/7!) * My microwave clock, including the power supply stuff for the microwave's control electronics, draws 1 to 2 watts (reads 1 watt on my Kill-A-Watt meter). * If 2 watts is the case, then it draws 48 watt-hours in a day. *That is 20 cents a month or a bit more, almost $2.50 per year, with my electric rate in suburban Philadelphia. *I would switch it off with a power strip when not in use, except that I like to have that clock on. * Although your other posted material makes sense and I agree with it including disconnecting those low-power continuously-running loads, I take issue with the microwave consuming more energy when not being used than it does when it is being used. * My microwave consumes maybe 48 watt-hours per day when it is not being used. *It consumes a good 1300 watts when it is heating something up at full power. *That amounts to 48 watt-hours in 2 minutes 13 seconds. * On the other hand, if I did not powerstrip-switch my printer, it probably would consume more energy when it is not being used than it does when it is. *- Don Klipstein ) "On the other hand, if I did not powerstrip-switch my printer, it probably would consume more energy when it is not being used than it does when it is." I question this in 2 ways: 1 - From a power saving perspective, I wonder how much power the printer uses when it runs through it's POST vs. it's total usage when idle. When my printer powers on, it calibrates the printhead, using it's blue-light sighting device and moving the printhead around within the unit for a few seconds.It also runs through other tests which must consume power - unless the LCD screen is lying to me. Granted, extra long idle times might use more power than the POST, but the power used during the POST has to factored into the equation. In additon, my printer also goes into a PowerSave mode after an idle period. It does not run through the full POST when woken up with a print job. 2 - From a strictly convenience perspective, this would be a pain in my as...errr....house. We have a single All-In-One printer/scanner/ copier networked for the 3 computers in my house. To power it down when not in use would mean a trip to the printer from the far end of the house when any of the users wanted to print. First the error message that the printer wasn't available, then a trip to the printer to turn it on, back to the computer to click OK and back to the printer to collect the printout and turn the printer off, assuming it's not going to be used again soon. If there's any thought that it might be used again, then it would be left on and the user would have to remember to make another trip to the printer to turn it off eventually. Wait, maybe that's not a bad idea. The extra walking would be healthy for us plus keep us warm so we could turn the heat down. ;-) |
#34
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Thursday, January 28, 2010 at 7:39:00 AM UTC-8, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? all of the responses I've read make the assumption we have A/C. my house doesn't. I live in Oregon. the few weeks when it gets very hot the refrigerator feels like the range has been left on. simply venting this hot air out thru the roof or exterior wall doesn't seem too difficult. I could add a bathroom vent fan if needed and have it turn on when the refr runs. all of this is a comfort issue, not $ savings. |
#35
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
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#36
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
Move ur fridge to the garage during the hot weather. I can see how that
might benefit most of us in more ways than just keeping the kitchen a bit cooler. |
#37
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit from outside cold air?
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#38
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
ahh, another old thread, this one is from 2010.
lets hope the same google groups IT techs arent put in charge of google self driving vehicles |
#40
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Why aren't refrigerators & freezers designed to benefit fromoutside cold air?
On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 8:57:27 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 7/6/2015 12:12 AM, wrote: On Thursday, January 28, 2010 at 7:39:00 AM UTC-8, blueman wrote: I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6 months of the year. Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if not frigid external air? Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than loading the AC? Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the draw on the compressor during winter months. Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done? all of the responses I've read make the assumption we have A/C. my house doesn't. I live in Oregon. the few weeks when it gets very hot the refrigerator feels like the range has been left on. simply venting this hot air out thru the roof or exterior wall doesn't seem too difficult. I could add a bathroom vent fan if needed and have it turn on when the refr runs. all of this is a comfort issue, not $ savings. Doing the outside air thing makes sense. But it would need coordination between the builders, the HVAC folks, and the refrigerator designers. BTW, the coils which get hot are condenser coils, the cold ones are evaporator. If you put the evaporator coils outdoors, the food would be warm. -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . one could probably have a heat echanger outside, run pex to the kitchen attach somehow the condensor coils to say copper line then pump the water of antifreeze from outside thru the coils attached to the fridges heat exchanger. its a interesting thought |
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