I would have thought that water would expand in three
directions, in the process of freezing. It's an interesting
concept. For now, I'm doing what I can to help prevent
damage to the house.

The expanding washer is intersting, too. But, for later, as
you say.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"DD_BobK" wrote in message
...

CY- When water freezes it expansion in all directions. Just
like when
a homogeneous material (like a block of metal) is subject to
unifrom
heating, it grows in all three axes.

But lets not get started on a discussion of what happens
when a metal
washer is heated....

cheers
Bob

I would have thought that water would expand in three
directions, in the process of freezing. It's an interesting
concept. For now, I'm doing what I can to help prevent
damage to the house.

The expanding washer is intersting, too. But, for later, as
you say.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"DD_BobK" wrote in message
...

CY- When water freezes it expansion in all directions. Just
like when
a homogeneous material (like a block of metal) is subject to
unifrom
heating, it grows in all three axes.

But lets not get started on a discussion of what happens
when a metal
washer is heated....

cheers
Bob

That's ballsy!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Dec 9, 8:17 am, "JoeSpareBedroom"

wrote:
The Ball canning guide says otherwise. Many uncracked jars
in my freezer

That's ballsy!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Dec 9, 8:17 am, "JoeSpareBedroom"

wrote:
The Ball canning guide says otherwise. Many uncracked jars
in my freezer

It rained this afternoon. The radio says tonight a couple
inches of snow. That should turn the roads into either ice,
or salt water to rust out the cars.

Thursday night going into Friday is forecast very windy, and
bitter cold. I'm hoping against hope that there is no water
damage. And that the house remains above freezing temp. I'm
not really optomistic. It was 38F or so when we left.

Wish there were more mineral in the domestic water. I'll
take all the help I can get, at present. I wonder if we can
fill the water pipes with salt brine. Most likely that would
do more damage than filling with RV antifreeze some how.
Sigh.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...


Let's introduce the mineral content of the water in
question.

Or not. :-)

It rained this afternoon. The radio says tonight a couple
inches of snow. That should turn the roads into either ice,
or salt water to rust out the cars.

Thursday night going into Friday is forecast very windy, and
bitter cold. I'm hoping against hope that there is no water
damage. And that the house remains above freezing temp. I'm
not really optomistic. It was 38F or so when we left.

Wish there were more mineral in the domestic water. I'll
take all the help I can get, at present. I wonder if we can
fill the water pipes with salt brine. Most likely that would
do more damage than filling with RV antifreeze some how.
Sigh.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...


Let's introduce the mineral content of the water in
question.

Or not. :-)

I do remember. There may be horizontal runs of pipe which
still contain water.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
No, because you were also slick enough to shut off the water
supply and turn
on all the faucets, thereby draining them. Remember? You did
that yesterday.

I do remember. There may be horizontal runs of pipe which
still contain water.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
No, because you were also slick enough to shut off the water
supply and turn
on all the faucets, thereby draining them. Remember? You did
that yesterday.

We have done that, excepting the blowing out of lines. I
have suggested that, but not yet got approval. I hope you're
richly blessed, for your help in spreading the gospel.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tom Horne" wrote in message
...


I assist with the maintenance at several church summer
camps. Anytime
we do not antifreeze the traps they break. When that U
shaped slug of
water freezes it expands in all directions and fractures the
traps.
Your theory doesn't work in the real world. We blow all of
the supply
lines down with compressed air so we have no trouble with
those.
--
Tom Horne

We have done that, excepting the blowing out of lines. I
have suggested that, but not yet got approval. I hope you're
richly blessed, for your help in spreading the gospel.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tom Horne" wrote in message
...


I assist with the maintenance at several church summer
camps. Anytime
we do not antifreeze the traps they break. When that U
shaped slug of
water freezes it expands in all directions and fractures the
traps.
Your theory doesn't work in the real world. We blow all of
the supply
lines down with compressed air so we have no trouble with
those.
--
Tom Horne

The WH is in the subterranian cellar. We *hope* that will
stay above freezing. If it gets bitter cold, I can go back,
turn turn the gas on at the WH, and it will heat back up.
It's on pilot, now. I mighta better left it on super low
vacation temp.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...


Now, what about the water heater? :-)

The WH is in the subterranian cellar. We *hope* that will
stay above freezing. If it gets bitter cold, I can go back,
turn turn the gas on at the WH, and it will heat back up.
It's on pilot, now. I mighta better left it on super low
vacation temp.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...


Now, what about the water heater? :-)

Who's gonna help me flush the WH when it gets warmer, or the
power is on?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

Now, what about the water heater? :-)


Fill it with vodka.

Who's gonna help me flush the WH when it gets warmer, or the
power is on?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

Now, what about the water heater? :-)


Fill it with vodka.

Congress expands 14% when elected. Minimum.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Paul Oman" wrote in message
m...

--------------------
water expands 4% when it freezes

paul

Congress expands 14% when elected. Minimum.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Paul Oman" wrote in message
m...

--------------------
water expands 4% when it freezes

paul

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:10:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Toilet replace, I've done that. It's a pain in the ass.

Maybe you installed it the wrong way up?

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:10:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Toilet replace, I've done that. It's a pain in the ass.

Maybe you installed it the wrong way up?

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:45:35 -0500, Paul Oman wrote:
water expands 4% when it freezes

The obvious solution to cure freezing pipework is to just use pipes that
are 4% wider, then.

;-)

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:45:35 -0500, Paul Oman wrote:
water expands 4% when it freezes

The obvious solution to cure freezing pipework is to just use pipes that
are 4% wider, then.

;-)

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:35:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

sewer gases often include methane, its a natural biproduct of rotting
stuff in sewer lines.

can cause explosion............

not good

The OP is far better off letting a friend live there for the price of
utilities.

vacant homes are often arson targets, and if homeowners wasnt told
home was vacant no coverage

These days, stealing the copper plumbing to sell for scrap is a big
issue with unoccupied homes.

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:35:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

sewer gases often include methane, its a natural biproduct of rotting
stuff in sewer lines.

can cause explosion............

not good

The OP is far better off letting a friend live there for the price of
utilities.

vacant homes are often arson targets, and if homeowners wasnt told
home was vacant no coverage

These days, stealing the copper plumbing to sell for scrap is a big
issue with unoccupied homes.

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:39:31 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:43:50 -0600, "Master Betty"
wrote:


"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Jeff The Drunk wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:09:38 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Friend of mine, is acting as caretaker for a family member's
house. The power got shut off, and the house is cold inside.
Down to 37, last he checked. Four burneers on the stove for
an hour raises the temp two entire degrees.

Last night, we put RV antifreeze in the drain traps.
Toilets, sinks, showers. We considered the dishwasher. But
that hadn't run in six month or so, and probably the trap
dried out. Washing machine is in the cellar, and should stay
warmer.

Water freezing in a drain trap will expand without breaking the
surrounding plumbing.

You are wrong.

Anti freeze in traps is standard practice for lots of cabins in the
mountains for a reason. Traps freeze and crack. Then you have to repair
the damage before you can use the fixtures/toilets.




Is it a special kind of antifreeze? I would imagine most cabins have
septic
systems and isn't af a no-no?

Jim


The stuff they use for RV's and Boats. Non-toxic, and okay to pour in
the river.

It has an alcohol base, IIRC, and that evaporates.

Steve


propylene glycol

You can drink it.

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:39:31 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:43:50 -0600, "Master Betty"
wrote:


"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Jeff The Drunk wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:09:38 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Friend of mine, is acting as caretaker for a family member's
house. The power got shut off, and the house is cold inside.
Down to 37, last he checked. Four burneers on the stove for
an hour raises the temp two entire degrees.

Last night, we put RV antifreeze in the drain traps.
Toilets, sinks, showers. We considered the dishwasher. But
that hadn't run in six month or so, and probably the trap
dried out. Washing machine is in the cellar, and should stay
warmer.

Water freezing in a drain trap will expand without breaking the
surrounding plumbing.

You are wrong.

Anti freeze in traps is standard practice for lots of cabins in the
mountains for a reason. Traps freeze and crack. Then you have to repair
the damage before you can use the fixtures/toilets.




Is it a special kind of antifreeze? I would imagine most cabins have
septic
systems and isn't af a no-no?

Jim


The stuff they use for RV's and Boats. Non-toxic, and okay to pour in
the river.

It has an alcohol base, IIRC, and that evaporates.

Steve


propylene glycol

You can drink it.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:11:09 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Steve Barker" wrote

the traps WILL break duh.

Don't ask me how I know. Some people will say that there has to be a
sealed
pipe, otherwise there's room to expand up the pipe. Balderdash, I say.
And
what's the big deal taking 15 minutes and two gallons of RV antifreeze and
going through the house? Also, don't forget the toilet tanks. There is
about a pint of water in there that won't drain, and it needs some
antifreeze in there. And the bow of snake sprayers in the kitchen.

So how do you ice-proof the sprayer?

Again,
don't ask me how I know.

Steve

It disconnects on both end. The first year, I took the head off, and left
the hose hanging down to floor level. This year, I blew air through it
backwards. You ice proof the sprayer by removing all water from it.

Steve

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:11:09 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Steve Barker" wrote

the traps WILL break duh.

Don't ask me how I know. Some people will say that there has to be a
sealed
pipe, otherwise there's room to expand up the pipe. Balderdash, I say.
And
what's the big deal taking 15 minutes and two gallons of RV antifreeze and
going through the house? Also, don't forget the toilet tanks. There is
about a pint of water in there that won't drain, and it needs some
antifreeze in there. And the bow of snake sprayers in the kitchen.

So how do you ice-proof the sprayer?

Again,
don't ask me how I know.

Steve

It disconnects on both end. The first year, I took the head off, and left
the hose hanging down to floor level. This year, I blew air through it
backwards. You ice proof the sprayer by removing all water from it.

Steve

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:43:50 -0600, "Master Betty"
wrote:


"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Jeff The Drunk wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:09:38 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Friend of mine, is acting as caretaker for a family member's
house. The power got shut off, and the house is cold inside.
Down to 37, last he checked. Four burneers on the stove for
an hour raises the temp two entire degrees.

Last night, we put RV antifreeze in the drain traps.
Toilets, sinks, showers. We considered the dishwasher. But
that hadn't run in six month or so, and probably the trap
dried out. Washing machine is in the cellar, and should stay
warmer.

Water freezing in a drain trap will expand without breaking the
surrounding plumbing.

You are wrong.

Anti freeze in traps is standard practice for lots of cabins in the
mountains for a reason. Traps freeze and crack. Then you have to repair
the damage before you can use the fixtures/toilets.




Is it a special kind of antifreeze? I would imagine most cabins have
septic
systems and isn't af a no-no?

Jim


The stuff they use for RV's and Boats. Non-toxic, and okay to pour in
the river.

It has an alcohol base, IIRC, and that evaporates.

Steve

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:43:50 -0600, "Master Betty"
wrote:


"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Jeff The Drunk wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:09:38 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Friend of mine, is acting as caretaker for a family member's
house. The power got shut off, and the house is cold inside.
Down to 37, last he checked. Four burneers on the stove for
an hour raises the temp two entire degrees.

Last night, we put RV antifreeze in the drain traps.
Toilets, sinks, showers. We considered the dishwasher. But
that hadn't run in six month or so, and probably the trap
dried out. Washing machine is in the cellar, and should stay
warmer.

Water freezing in a drain trap will expand without breaking the
surrounding plumbing.

You are wrong.

Anti freeze in traps is standard practice for lots of cabins in the
mountains for a reason. Traps freeze and crack. Then you have to repair
the damage before you can use the fixtures/toilets.




Is it a special kind of antifreeze? I would imagine most cabins have
septic
systems and isn't af a no-no?

Jim


The stuff they use for RV's and Boats. Non-toxic, and okay to pour in
the river.

It has an alcohol base, IIRC, and that evaporates.

Steve

Stormin Mormon wrote:
During the phase change from liquid water to solid ice, the
water (ice) expands. It can easily crack the pipe. So that
when the weather warms up, the drain trap leaks.


I don't believe it can crack the pipe.

As the water turns to ice it expands, true. But in a p-trap it's got PLENTY
of space to expand into (like millions of cubic feet) - in both directions.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
During the phase change from liquid water to solid ice, the
water (ice) expands. It can easily crack the pipe. So that
when the weather warms up, the drain trap leaks.


I don't believe it can crack the pipe.

As the water turns to ice it expands, true. But in a p-trap it's got PLENTY
of space to expand into (like millions of cubic feet) - in both directions.

HeyBub wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Friend of mine, is acting as caretaker for a family member's
house. The power got shut off, and the house is cold inside.
Down to 37, last he checked. Four burneers on the stove for
an hour raises the temp two entire degrees.

Last night, we put RV antifreeze in the drain traps.
Toilets, sinks, showers. We considered the dishwasher. But
that hadn't run in six month or so, and probably the trap
dried out. Washing machine is in the cellar, and should stay
warmer.

For $3.97 that might be a lot cheaper than replacing a bunch
of broken pipes. I got to thinking. On the way home, I
bought myself a jug of antifreeze. Might never need it. But
it might be cheaper than replacing a bunch of pipes and such
if I need it here, or for a friend some day.

I don't understand. How can freezing of water in a p-trap present a
significant problem?


If the p-trap is china or plastic, and for some reason the forming ice
can't expand along the normal water flow path, it can blow out the trap.
Toilets are probably the major risk, and then washing machines and
dishwashers. Picture how a toilet bowl is shaped- if it freezes before a
lot of the water in the bowl evaporates, it is locked into place on the
top side, on some toilets. And in stuff with plastic pumps in the
bottom, there is likely no smooth water path like on a siphon.

One year, one of my saturday jobs was changing the locks and pouring
antifreeze in the toilets on FHA repo houses.

--
aem sends...

HeyBub wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Friend of mine, is acting as caretaker for a family member's
house. The power got shut off, and the house is cold inside.
Down to 37, last he checked. Four burneers on the stove for
an hour raises the temp two entire degrees.

Last night, we put RV antifreeze in the drain traps.
Toilets, sinks, showers. We considered the dishwasher. But
that hadn't run in six month or so, and probably the trap
dried out. Washing machine is in the cellar, and should stay
warmer.

For $3.97 that might be a lot cheaper than replacing a bunch
of broken pipes. I got to thinking. On the way home, I
bought myself a jug of antifreeze. Might never need it. But
it might be cheaper than replacing a bunch of pipes and such
if I need it here, or for a friend some day.

I don't understand. How can freezing of water in a p-trap present a
significant problem?


If the p-trap is china or plastic, and for some reason the forming ice
can't expand along the normal water flow path, it can blow out the trap.
Toilets are probably the major risk, and then washing machines and
dishwashers. Picture how a toilet bowl is shaped- if it freezes before a
lot of the water in the bowl evaporates, it is locked into place on the
top side, on some toilets. And in stuff with plastic pumps in the
bottom, there is likely no smooth water path like on a siphon.

One year, one of my saturday jobs was changing the locks and pouring
antifreeze in the toilets on FHA repo houses.

--
aem sends...

Actually, I thought the web site was in South America, so it
was on the other side of the equator. I just figured the
website picture was upside down. I'll have to try it the
other way. Maybe I'll need a new wax bowl gasket.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jules" wrote
in message
news On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:10:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Toilet replace, I've done that. It's a pain in the ass.

Maybe you installed it the wrong way up?

Actually, I thought the web site was in South America, so it
was on the other side of the equator. I just figured the
website picture was upside down. I'll have to try it the
other way. Maybe I'll need a new wax bowl gasket.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jules" wrote
in message
news On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:10:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Toilet replace, I've done that. It's a pain in the ass.

Maybe you installed it the wrong way up?

Would that mean 1.04/2 or maybe 3.12/4 inch copper?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jules" wrote
in message
news On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:45:35 -0500, Paul Oman wrote:
water expands 4% when it freezes

The obvious solution to cure freezing pipework is to just
use pipes that
are 4% wider, then.

;-)

Would that mean 1.04/2 or maybe 3.12/4 inch copper?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jules" wrote
in message
news On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:45:35 -0500, Paul Oman wrote:
water expands 4% when it freezes

The obvious solution to cure freezing pipework is to just
use pipes that
are 4% wider, then.

;-)

I hope the house will have the copper pipes, when we return.
I do know of one family who had that happen late night while
the family slept. I know the man in question, and he was a
bit crude mouthed when he got up and found he didn't have
any water to make his morning cup o'joe. Plus the cost of
replacing the pipes.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:35:29 -0800


vacant homes are often arson targets, and if homeowners
wasnt told
home was vacant no coverage

These days, stealing the copper plumbing to sell for scrap
is a big
issue with unoccupied homes.

I hope the house will have the copper pipes, when we return.
I do know of one family who had that happen late night while
the family slept. I know the man in question, and he was a
bit crude mouthed when he got up and found he didn't have
any water to make his morning cup o'joe. Plus the cost of
replacing the pipes.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:35:29 -0800


vacant homes are often arson targets, and if homeowners
wasnt told
home was vacant no coverage

These days, stealing the copper plumbing to sell for scrap
is a big
issue with unoccupied homes.

on 12/9/2009 5:06 PM (ET) Stormin Mormon wrote the following:
And when the water is turned back on, some future moment. A
very real concern for sure.


The water does not have to be turned on. Once the weather warms, the ice
in the frozen pipes that cracked the pipes will melt and the water will
escape from the cracks. I know this for a fact since I had to respond to
floods in unoccupied homes after a long freeze.



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

on 12/9/2009 5:06 PM (ET) Stormin Mormon wrote the following:
And when the water is turned back on, some future moment. A
very real concern for sure.


The water does not have to be turned on. Once the weather warms, the ice
in the frozen pipes that cracked the pipes will melt and the water will
escape from the cracks. I know this for a fact since I had to respond to
floods in unoccupied homes after a long freeze.



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @