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#1
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
Hi,
I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu) where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy. If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a good brand / model to buy? I am looking for MR16 Based Accent spot lamps, and I live in NorthEastern USA. So get snowy winters, well now I do, not sure what global warming will bring... has stayed pretty mild recently. Another question is, in general are lamps which will take 50w bulbs better built that the ones which have a max wattage of 20w? Best, Mike. |
#2
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
For $30, you'll get crappy fixtures worth $15 more than the really crappy HD
fixtures. Landscape fixtures, regardless of voltage can easily run around $100 per fixture for good equipment. Low voltage will also require a transformer. Most higher end companies like Hadco, or Kim, will make many of their fixtures in either voltage. From my experience, low voltage fixtures don't hold up nearly as well as line voltage, and the bi-pin sockets of MR-16 fixtures are nothing but problems "hobbes" wrote in message ups.com... Hi, I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu) where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy. If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a good brand / model to buy? I am looking for MR16 Based Accent spot lamps, and I live in NorthEastern USA. So get snowy winters, well now I do, not sure what global warming will bring... has stayed pretty mild recently. Another question is, in general are lamps which will take 50w bulbs better built that the ones which have a max wattage of 20w? Best, Mike. |
#3
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
hobbes wrote:
I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu) where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy. If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a good brand / model to buy? I just bought & installed the HD Malibu Metal series kit (made by Intermatic) and and very pleased with how it looks. The fixtures (bullet & spot) are heavy aluminum and the kit comes with 100' of the HD power cord. Much nicer than the plastic pagoda lights. Used the bullets to light a 30' flagstone walkway and the spots to wash the house. Installs easy and looks like it will last a long time. Only suggestion would be if you buy additional cable, be sure to get the HD kind and not the standard or light gauge stuff. Too much voltage drop with that. -- "Tell me what I should do, Annie." "Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars |
#4
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... Low voltage will also require a transformer. Most higher end companies like Hadco, or Kim, will make many of their fixtures in either voltage. From my experience, low voltage fixtures don't hold up nearly as well as line voltage, and the bi-pin sockets of MR-16 fixtures are nothing but problems Line voltage fixture may be better quality, but low voltage offers many advantages to the homeowner. DIY install, no permits, no electrician, no special wiring to code, no 24" cable burial, less danger, |
#5
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as
the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are fine, but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment of the Northeast "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message et... "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... Low voltage will also require a transformer. Most higher end companies like Hadco, or Kim, will make many of their fixtures in either voltage. From my experience, low voltage fixtures don't hold up nearly as well as line voltage, and the bi-pin sockets of MR-16 fixtures are nothing but problems Line voltage fixture may be better quality, but low voltage offers many advantages to the homeowner. DIY install, no permits, no electrician, no special wiring to code, no 24" cable burial, less danger, |
#6
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400, RBM wrote:
I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are fine, but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment of the Northeast Amperage is what matters and low voltage lighting operates at far higher current than high voltage lighting. The power dissipated by an inline resistance is I^2*R; A 60W 120V system will draw 0.5 amps and a 1/2 ohm series resistance will dump 1/8th of a watt. A 60W 12V system will draw 5 amps, and the same 1/2 ohm resistance will dump 12.5 watts and probably burn out in short order. |
#7
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
On Oct 24, 6:05 pm, Rick Blaine wrote:
hobbes wrote: I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu) where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy. If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a good brand / model to buy? I just bought & installed the HD Malibu Metal series kit (made by Intermatic) and and very pleased with how it looks. The fixtures (bullet & spot) are heavy aluminum and the kit comes with 100' of the HD power cord. Much nicer than the plastic pagoda lights. Used the bullets to light a 30' flagstone walkway and the spots to wash the house. Installs easy and looks like it will last a long time. Only suggestion would be if you buy additional cable, be sure to get the HD kind and not the standard or light gauge stuff. Too much voltage drop with that. -- "Tell me what I should do, Annie." "Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars Hi Rick, I was thinking about those Malibu ones as well. The price is great compared to other ones I see. I was just wondering how they hold up over time. My thinking was if I get the super nice ones, like $US 100, I could like buy six of the Malibu. Would one of the expensive ones really last six times as long? I was also wondering what the failure modes where. Nomad thinks it is heat dissapation due to higher resistance. I was thinking thermal cycle. These fixtures get real hot. I know that because I bought just one of the Malibu and was testing it with a 12 v battery car charger. So in the winter when the temperature is like 13 degrees (I am in New York State). Turing on one of these will move the temperature to maybe 120 and over, too hot to touch. Would that sort of temperature range break seals and hence allow water to get in? If that is the case is there any gunk sealant that you could try to extend the live of the units? Best, Mike. |
#8
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
Regardless of the voltage of your system, you must use wire properly sized
for the current draw. In any low voltage system, the slightest oxidation causes connections to open and lights to go out. Many of the cheap systems use connectors that stab into the conductor. This type of connection is really poor in soil like in the NE "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400, RBM wrote: I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are fine, but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment of the Northeast Amperage is what matters and low voltage lighting operates at far higher current than high voltage lighting. The power dissipated by an inline resistance is I^2*R; A 60W 120V system will draw 0.5 amps and a 1/2 ohm series resistance will dump 1/8th of a watt. A 60W 12V system will draw 5 amps, and the same 1/2 ohm resistance will dump 12.5 watts and probably burn out in short order. |
#9
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
hobbes wrote:
Hi, I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu) where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy. If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a good brand / model to buy? I am looking for MR16 Based Accent spot lamps, and I live in NorthEastern USA. So get snowy winters, well now I do, not sure what global warming will bring... has stayed pretty mild recently. Another question is, in general are lamps which will take 50w bulbs better built that the ones which have a max wattage of 20w? Best, Mike. A friend of mine has an ancient Malibu system, and parts of her system went bad .. Florida, on the water. I had the dubious honor of shopping with her to buy replacements and she had an electrician install them. New transformer, some new wiring, new fixtures and bulbs. I learned way more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related to number and size of bulbs. Size and length of wire matters. If a bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other bulbs. Her system, if original to the house, would be close to 35 years old. Used all the time, rare problems. |
#10
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... Regardless of the voltage of your system, you must use wire properly sized for the current draw. In any low voltage system, the slightest oxidation causes connections to open and lights to go out. Many of the cheap systems use connectors that stab into the conductor. This type of connection is really poor in soil like in the NE I concur. Whenever I get a service call for outdoor low voltage lights the two things I look for first are a bad connection and corrosion on the lamp socket. My fix is to solder the wires together and throw away those wire pinchers. Personnally I am not a fan of low voltage outdoor wiring. Through many years of service calls and observation, line voltage outdoor lighting appears to be the most reliable and has the greatest service life. This may be because a more casual approach to installation of low voltage is taken. Wire is not protected by being buried deep enough, wire pinching connectors are used instead of protected splices, fixtures are just stabbed into the ground, are all reasons for premature failure. "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400, RBM wrote: I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are fine, but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment of the Northeast Amperage is what matters and low voltage lighting operates at far higher current than high voltage lighting. The power dissipated by an inline resistance is I^2*R; A 60W 120V system will draw 0.5 amps and a 1/2 ohm series resistance will dump 1/8th of a watt. A 60W 12V system will draw 5 amps, and the same 1/2 ohm resistance will dump 12.5 watts and probably burn out in short order. |
#11
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
hobbes wrote:
I was thinking about those Malibu ones as well. The price is great compared to other ones I see. I was just wondering how they hold up over time. My thinking was if I get the super nice ones, like $US 100, I could like buy six of the Malibu. Would one of the expensive ones really last six times as long? I bought the 15 fixture kit - 10 bullets and 5 spots for $279. Also includes 100' of cable and a 300w transformer. Bought it more for appearance than how long it would last, but I'm not too worried about it. I was also wondering what the failure modes where. Nomad thinks it is heat dissapation due to higher resistance. I was thinking thermal cycle. These fixtures get real hot. I know that because I bought just one of the Malibu and was testing it with a 12 v battery car charger. Not sure why you were seeing such high temps as my cases get warm, but not hot. The glass does get hot, but that's halogen. The bullets are vented at the bottom and I think the spots were also, but I'm not sure. They had different sized bulbs, so maybe the spots were smaller wattage. One thing - the instructions said not to place a lamp close than 10' to the transformer, so you may have been pushing too much current through your test fixture. So in the winter when the temperature is like 13 degrees (I am in New York State). Turing on one of these will move the temperature to maybe 120 and over, too hot to touch. Would that sort of temperature range break seals and hence allow water to get in? If that is the case is there any gunk sealant that you could try to extend the live of the units? I wouldn't mess up the venting. They're designed for outdoor four season use... -- "Tell me what I should do, Annie." "Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars |
#12
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
In article ,
Norminn wrote: I learned way more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related to number and size of bulbs. If a bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other bulbs. Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage. And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either. |
#13
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
Smitty Two wrote:
In article , Norminn wrote: I learned way more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related to number and size of bulbs. If a bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other bulbs. Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage. And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either. I can't remember the differance between ohms, watts, volts, etc. Here is what Malibu says: http://www.malibulights.com/kbase/us...ory_id=4&sid2= http://www.malibulights.com/kbase/us...ory_id=4&sid2= |
#14
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
Smitty Two wrote:
Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage. And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either. According to the Malibu instructions, "as the load decreases on the transformer, the voltage increases. Therefore, the life of the lamps will be reduced unless the transformer is carrying close to its rated capacity." -- "Tell me what I should do, Annie." "Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars |
#15
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
Norminn wrote:
hobbes wrote: Hi, I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu) where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy. If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a good brand / model to buy? I am looking for MR16 Based Accent spot lamps, and I live in NorthEastern USA. So get snowy winters, well now I do, not sure what global warming will bring... has stayed pretty mild recently. Another question is, in general are lamps which will take 50w bulbs better built that the ones which have a max wattage of 20w? Best, Mike. A friend of mine has an ancient Malibu system, and parts of her system went bad .. Florida, on the water. I had the dubious honor of shopping with her to buy replacements and she had an electrician install them. New transformer, some new wiring, new fixtures and bulbs. I learned way more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related to number and size of bulbs. Size and length of wire matters. If a bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other bulbs. Her system, if original to the house, would be close to 35 years old. Used all the time, rare problems. She's gotten good service 35 years, man. I installed Malibu's also in the metal series vs. plastic, both spots and paths. However I used Vista pro transformers. Vista has a great wizard for calc'ing out the wire, transformers, etc. http://www.vistapro.com/wirewizard.htm |
#16
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
In article ,
Rick Blaine wrote: Smitty Two wrote: Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage. And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either. According to the Malibu instructions, "as the load decreases on the transformer, the voltage increases. Therefore, the life of the lamps will be reduced unless the transformer is carrying close to its rated capacity." Ah, an unregulated power transformer. I'll remember not to buy Malibu. |
#17
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
In article ,
Norminn wrote: Smitty Two wrote: In article , Norminn wrote: I learned way more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related to number and size of bulbs. If a bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other bulbs. Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage. And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either. I can't remember the differance between ohms, watts, volts, etc. Here is what Malibu says: http://www.malibulights.com/kbase/us...ory_id=4&sid2= http://www.malibulights.com/kbase/us...ory_id=4&sid2= Translation: Our equipment is junk, and we want you to compensate for it. |
#18
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Landscape lighting fixtures - low voltage
On Oct 25, 2:01 pm, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400, RBM wrote: I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are fine, but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment of the Northeast Amperage is what matters and low voltagelightingoperates at far higher current than high voltagelighting. The power dissipated by an inline resistance is I^2*R; A 60W 120V system will draw 0.5 amps and a 1/2 ohm series resistance will dump 1/8th of a watt. A 60W 12V system will draw 5 amps, and the same 1/2 ohm resistance will dump 12.5 watts and probably burn out in short order. Hi - i'm kind of new to this google groups but joined because we make low voltage lights in Australia, using stainless steel and LED's - they certainly aren't those flimsy lights you'd get at HomeDepot. We are still in R&D mode at the moment but have just finished a big trial and looking to make some more tests. BTW they are also solar powered so there is no need to kill the environment the images are not on the web site yet but will be soon - check out some of the other things we do at www.colinklupiec.com - cheers - will |
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