Hi,

I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am
looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu)
where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy.
If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a
good brand / model to buy?

I am looking for MR16 Based Accent spot lamps, and I live in
NorthEastern USA. So get snowy winters, well now I do, not sure what
global warming will bring... has stayed pretty mild recently.

Another question is, in general are lamps which will take 50w bulbs
better built that the ones which have a max wattage of 20w?

Best, Mike.

For $30, you'll get crappy fixtures worth $15 more than the really crappy HD
fixtures. Landscape fixtures, regardless of voltage can easily run around
$100 per fixture for good equipment. Low voltage will also require a
transformer. Most higher end companies like Hadco, or Kim, will make many of
their fixtures in either voltage. From my experience, low voltage fixtures
don't hold up nearly as well as line voltage, and the bi-pin sockets of
MR-16 fixtures are nothing but problems



"hobbes" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am
looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu)
where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy.
If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a
good brand / model to buy?

I am looking for MR16 Based Accent spot lamps, and I live in
NorthEastern USA. So get snowy winters, well now I do, not sure what
global warming will bring... has stayed pretty mild recently.

Another question is, in general are lamps which will take 50w bulbs
better built that the ones which have a max wattage of 20w?

Best, Mike.

hobbes wrote:

I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am
looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu)
where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy.
If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a
good brand / model to buy?

I just bought & installed the HD Malibu Metal series kit (made by Intermatic)
and and very pleased with how it looks. The fixtures (bullet & spot) are heavy
aluminum and the kit comes with 100' of the HD power cord. Much nicer than the
plastic pagoda lights. Used the bullets to light a 30' flagstone walkway and the
spots to wash the house.

Installs easy and looks like it will last a long time. Only suggestion would be
if you buy additional cable, be sure to get the HD kind and not the standard or
light gauge stuff. Too much voltage drop with that.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Low voltage will also require a transformer. Most higher end companies
like Hadco, or Kim, will make many of their fixtures in either voltage.
From my experience, low voltage fixtures don't hold up nearly as well as
line voltage, and the bi-pin sockets of MR-16 fixtures are nothing but
problems

Line voltage fixture may be better quality, but low voltage offers many
advantages to the homeowner. DIY install, no permits, no electrician, no
special wiring to code, no 24" cable burial, less danger,

I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as
the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired
the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type
connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are fine,
but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment
of the Northeast


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Low voltage will also require a transformer. Most higher end companies
like Hadco, or Kim, will make many of their fixtures in either voltage.
From my experience, low voltage fixtures don't hold up nearly as well as
line voltage, and the bi-pin sockets of MR-16 fixtures are nothing but
problems

Line voltage fixture may be better quality, but low voltage offers many
advantages to the homeowner. DIY install, no permits, no electrician, no
special wiring to code, no 24" cable burial, less danger,

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400, RBM wrote:


I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as
the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired
the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type
connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are fine,
but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment
of the Northeast

Amperage is what matters and low voltage lighting operates at far higher current
than high voltage lighting. The power dissipated by an inline resistance is
I^2*R; A 60W 120V system will draw 0.5 amps and a 1/2 ohm series resistance
will dump 1/8th of a watt. A 60W 12V system will draw 5 amps, and the same 1/2
ohm resistance will dump 12.5 watts and probably burn out in short order.

On Oct 24, 6:05 pm, Rick Blaine wrote:
hobbes wrote:
I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am
looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu)
where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy.
If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a
good brand / model to buy?

I just bought & installed the HD Malibu Metal series kit (made by Intermatic)
and and very pleased with how it looks. The fixtures (bullet & spot) are heavy
aluminum and the kit comes with 100' of the HD power cord. Much nicer than the
plastic pagoda lights. Used the bullets to light a 30' flagstone walkway and the
spots to wash the house.

Installs easy and looks like it will last a long time. Only suggestion would be
if you buy additional cable, be sure to get the HD kind and not the standard or
light gauge stuff. Too much voltage drop with that.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

Hi Rick,

I was thinking about those Malibu ones as well. The price is great
compared to other ones I see. I was just wondering how they hold up
over time. My thinking was if I get the super nice ones, like $US 100,
I could like buy six of the Malibu. Would one of the expensive ones
really last six times as long?

I was also wondering what the failure modes where. Nomad thinks it is
heat dissapation due to higher resistance. I was thinking thermal
cycle. These fixtures get real hot. I know that because I bought just
one of the Malibu and was testing it with a 12 v battery car charger.
So in the winter when the temperature is like 13 degrees (I am in New
York State). Turing on one of these will move the temperature to maybe
120 and over, too hot to touch. Would that sort of temperature range
break seals and hence allow water to get in? If that is the case is
there any gunk sealant that you could try to extend the live of the
units?

Best, Mike.

Regardless of the voltage of your system, you must use wire properly sized
for the current draw. In any low voltage system, the slightest oxidation
causes connections to open and lights to go out. Many of the cheap systems
use connectors that stab into the conductor. This type of connection is
really poor in soil like in the NE


"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400, RBM wrote:


I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as
the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired
the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type
connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are
fine,
but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment
of the Northeast

Amperage is what matters and low voltage lighting operates at far higher
current
than high voltage lighting. The power dissipated by an inline resistance
is
I^2*R; A 60W 120V system will draw 0.5 amps and a 1/2 ohm series
resistance
will dump 1/8th of a watt. A 60W 12V system will draw 5 amps, and the
same 1/2
ohm resistance will dump 12.5 watts and probably burn out in short order.

hobbes wrote:
Hi,

I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am
looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu)
where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy.
If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a
good brand / model to buy?

I am looking for MR16 Based Accent spot lamps, and I live in
NorthEastern USA. So get snowy winters, well now I do, not sure what
global warming will bring... has stayed pretty mild recently.

Another question is, in general are lamps which will take 50w bulbs
better built that the ones which have a max wattage of 20w?

Best, Mike.


A friend of mine has an ancient Malibu system, and parts of her system
went bad .. Florida, on the water. I had the dubious honor of shopping
with her to buy replacements and she had an electrician install them.
New transformer, some new wiring, new fixtures and bulbs. I learned way
more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that
most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related
to number and size of bulbs. Size and length of wire matters. If a
bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other
bulbs. Her system, if original to the house, would be close to 35 years
old. Used all the time, rare problems.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Regardless of the voltage of your system, you must use wire properly sized
for the current draw. In any low voltage system, the slightest oxidation
causes connections to open and lights to go out. Many of the cheap systems
use connectors that stab into the conductor. This type of connection is
really poor in soil like in the NE


I concur. Whenever I get a service call for outdoor low voltage lights the
two things I look for first are a bad connection and corrosion on the lamp
socket. My fix is to solder the wires together and throw away those wire
pinchers.

Personnally I am not a fan of low voltage outdoor wiring. Through many
years of service calls and observation, line voltage outdoor lighting
appears to be the most reliable and has the greatest service life. This may
be because a more casual approach to installation of low voltage is taken.
Wire is not protected by being buried deep enough, wire pinching connectors
are used instead of protected splices, fixtures are just stabbed into the
ground, are all reasons for premature failure.




"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400, RBM wrote:


I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same
as
the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are
wired
the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type
connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are
fine,
but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile
environment
of the Northeast

Amperage is what matters and low voltage lighting operates at far higher
current
than high voltage lighting. The power dissipated by an inline
resistance
is
I^2*R; A 60W 120V system will draw 0.5 amps and a 1/2 ohm series
resistance
will dump 1/8th of a watt. A 60W 12V system will draw 5 amps, and the
same 1/2
ohm resistance will dump 12.5 watts and probably burn out in short
order.

hobbes wrote:

I was thinking about those Malibu ones as well. The price is great
compared to other ones I see. I was just wondering how they hold up
over time. My thinking was if I get the super nice ones, like $US 100,
I could like buy six of the Malibu. Would one of the expensive ones
really last six times as long?

I bought the 15 fixture kit - 10 bullets and 5 spots for $279. Also includes
100' of cable and a 300w transformer. Bought it more for appearance than how
long it would last, but I'm not too worried about it.

I was also wondering what the failure modes where. Nomad thinks it is
heat dissapation due to higher resistance. I was thinking thermal
cycle. These fixtures get real hot. I know that because I bought just
one of the Malibu and was testing it with a 12 v battery car charger.

Not sure why you were seeing such high temps as my cases get warm, but not hot.
The glass does get hot, but that's halogen. The bullets are vented at the
bottom and I think the spots were also, but I'm not sure. They had different
sized bulbs, so maybe the spots were smaller wattage.

One thing - the instructions said not to place a lamp close than 10' to the
transformer, so you may have been pushing too much current through your test
fixture.

So in the winter when the temperature is like 13 degrees (I am in New
York State). Turing on one of these will move the temperature to maybe
120 and over, too hot to touch. Would that sort of temperature range
break seals and hence allow water to get in? If that is the case is
there any gunk sealant that you could try to extend the live of the
units?

I wouldn't mess up the venting. They're designed for outdoor four season use...

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

In article ,
Norminn wrote:

I learned way
more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that
most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related
to number and size of bulbs.

If a bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other
bulbs.

Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not
undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it
would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage.
And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Norminn wrote:


I learned way
more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that
most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related
to number and size of bulbs.


If a bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other
bulbs.


Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not
undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it
would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage.
And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either.

I can't remember the differance between ohms, watts, volts, etc. Here
is what Malibu says:

http://www.malibulights.com/kbase/us...ory_id=4&sid2=


http://www.malibulights.com/kbase/us...ory_id=4&sid2=

Smitty Two wrote:

Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not
undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it
would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage.
And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either.

According to the Malibu instructions, "as the load decreases on the transformer,
the voltage increases. Therefore, the life of the lamps will be reduced unless
the transformer is carrying close to its rated capacity."

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

Norminn wrote:
hobbes wrote:
Hi,

I am interested in installing some low voltage landscape lights. I am
looking at 12v systems. I looked at the lights at Home Depot (Malibu)
where the spot lamps 20w are about $US 14.00 each. These look flimsy.
If I were to spend something like $US 30 per lamp, what would be a
good brand / model to buy?

I am looking for MR16 Based Accent spot lamps, and I live in
NorthEastern USA. So get snowy winters, well now I do, not sure what
global warming will bring... has stayed pretty mild recently.

Another question is, in general are lamps which will take 50w bulbs
better built that the ones which have a max wattage of 20w?

Best, Mike.


A friend of mine has an ancient Malibu system, and parts of her system
went bad .. Florida, on the water. I had the dubious honor of shopping
with her to buy replacements and she had an electrician install them.
New transformer, some new wiring, new fixtures and bulbs. I learned way
more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that
most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related
to number and size of bulbs. Size and length of wire matters. If a
bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other
bulbs. Her system, if original to the house, would be close to 35 years
old. Used all the time, rare problems.

She's gotten good service 35 years, man. I installed Malibu's also in
the metal series vs. plastic, both spots and paths. However I used
Vista pro transformers. Vista has a great wizard for calc'ing out the
wire, transformers, etc.
http://www.vistapro.com/wirewizard.htm

In article ,
Rick Blaine wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:

Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not
undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it
would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage.
And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either.

According to the Malibu instructions, "as the load decreases on the
transformer,
the voltage increases. Therefore, the life of the lamps will be reduced
unless
the transformer is carrying close to its rated capacity."


Ah, an unregulated power transformer. I'll remember not to buy Malibu.

In article ,
Norminn wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Norminn wrote:


I learned way
more about Malibu than I ever wanted to know. I learned a little that
most folks probably know .. don't over- or under-size the trans. related
to number and size of bulbs.


If a bulb burns out, replace right away or the added power burns out other
bulbs.


Can you clarify those two points for me? I can understand not
undersizing the transformer, but don't understand why oversizing it
would be bad, assuming you're talking about power as opposed to voltage.
And the second assertion doesn't quite make sense to me, either.

I can't remember the differance between ohms, watts, volts, etc. Here
is what Malibu says:

http://www.malibulights.com/kbase/us...ory_id=4&sid2=


http://www.malibulights.com/kbase/us...ory_id=4&sid2=

Translation: Our equipment is junk, and we want you to compensate for it.

On Oct 25, 2:01 pm, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400, RBM wrote:
I agree. The higher end low voltage fixtures are made exactly the same as
the line voltage ones, with a different socket, and essentially are wired
the same except for the type of cable used. They don't use the stab type
connectors which oxidize in a short time. The 20 watt bi-pin type are fine,
but I find that the MR-16 sockets don't hold up in the hostile environment
of the Northeast

Amperage is what matters and low voltagelightingoperates at far higher current
than high voltagelighting. The power dissipated by an inline resistance is
I^2*R; A 60W 120V system will draw 0.5 amps and a 1/2 ohm series resistance
will dump 1/8th of a watt. A 60W 12V system will draw 5 amps, and the same 1/2
ohm resistance will dump 12.5 watts and probably burn out in short order.

Hi - i'm kind of new to this google groups but joined because we make
low voltage lights in Australia, using stainless steel and LED's -
they certainly aren't those flimsy lights you'd get at HomeDepot. We
are still in R&D mode at the moment but have just finished a big trial
and looking to make some more tests. BTW they are also solar powered
so there is no need to kill the environment the images are not on
the web site yet but will be soon - check out some of the other things
we do at www.colinklupiec.com - cheers - will