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#121
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
In article .com,
Too_Many_Tools wrote: Not knowing when to say "No" to a retailer demanding cost reductions is called "corporate greed". Actually it is called staying in business. Interesting that every body gets all bent about monopolistic practices, but nothing is said about monopsonist, where the BUYER has the power. WalMart is the poster child for this kind. |
#122
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.home.repair
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message ... In article .com, Too_Many_Tools wrote: Not knowing when to say "No" to a retailer demanding cost reductions is called "corporate greed". Actually it is called staying in business. Interesting that every body gets all bent about monopolistic practices, but nothing is said about monopsonist, where the BUYER has the power. WalMart is the poster child for this kind. Uh, monopsony is a circumstance where there is only one buyer. If Bill Gates decided to buy Cleveland and Warren Buffet decided he wasn't interested, Gates would be a monopsonist. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
#123
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Sep 17, 9:32 am, George wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: Now you are telling us that the consumer wants to give their children poisonious toys?!?!?! But he didn't say that. Our current Walmart driven culture is that the only thing that matters is price. Thats what gets us into melamine flavored dog food and toys with lead paint. If you keep on squeezing suppliers and looking in every dark alley for cheap stuff you will find it. Wrong...what gets us poisoned dog food, poisoned toothpaste and poisoned toys is that American companies are not doing QA to save a buck and passing those savings on to the CEO's compensation. And we had a Republican Congress and President who allowed it to happen while being compensated for it. Consumers always choose quality over price when the kids and the dog are dropping dead. TMT I'm starting to think you have a hard-on for corporate management. If consumers bought quality BEFORE, the dog and kid would never have been at risk. But the great unwashed masses choose price - not quality. So that's what businesses supplied them. It's the BUYER who sets the selling price. And the quality. Basic economics... Look, ok, it's fun to sit at the computer and vent, but what really do you think you are changing here? Nothing... |
#124
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.home.repair,alt.fan.cecil-adams
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:03:19 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Sep 17, 9:28 am, Ignoramus26157 ignoramus26...@NOSPAM. 26157.invalid wrote: On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:05:58 -0700, Tom Gardner wrote: Do CEOs make too much? Why is that? Could it be that they are hired to do a job and that's what the job is worth? Why do you resent high-paying jobs? Tom, it would be helpful to get acquainted with the issue of CEO compensation a little more closely, before invoking cheap capitalist rhetoric. The problem with "CEO compensation" is that CEOs wield a lot of corporate power and subvert the board and "compensation committees", who nominally set CEO salary, stuffing them with cronies, hiring complicit "compensation consultants", and forcing them to agree to pay them beyond what they are worth. I am very skeptical of the possibility that there are more than one or two people, if that many, who really are worth beyond a few millions of dollars per year. If you would like, I can point you to a couple of Warren Buffett's annual letters to shareholders that explain this issue well. i Ig is right. A quiz: 1) who promotes such cheap rhetoric (that there is free market in setting CEO compensation)? ANSWER: CEOs 2) Who selects media outfits when spending corporate advertising dollars? ANSWER: CEOs 3) Does media like to **** off those who pay them ANSWER: try guessing i |
#125
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sep 17, 12:01 pm, "Noozer" wrote:
"I will pay more (for toys) because I know it will ensure safety," said Lisa Sallese, a Wilton, Conn., mother of a 7-month-old boy and a 2-year-old girl. "But it stinks. It should have been safe to begin with." ...and she pays twice as much for a insert well known toy company here toy instead of a Mattel toy, not knowing that both companies had stuff manufactured at the same plant in China. Sounds like a WIN solution for the toy companies. They can double their prices, citing increased safety costs, while not actually doing anything to improve safety. LOL...yeah a manufacturer's dream is still a dream. The more toys cost....the fewer that will be purchased....and since the fewer toys that will be purchased will need to deliver better value. Since the consumer mentality is "I paid this MUCH for this toy and it BREAKS after a couple of days"....the companies will need to invest even more. The 10% mentioned in the article is the number that the companies are testing the consumer waters with....MBA 101. Toy companies need to sell toys...consumers do not need to buy toys....guess who will win this game. Just sit back and watch....Scrooge is coming to a toy company near you. TMT |
#126
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sep 17, 12:04 pm, "Noozer" wrote:
Quality has EVERYTHING to do with what the CEO should be paid. Quality determines sales...which determines profits...which determines his compensation. Quality has NOTHING to do with sales. How do you think places like Walmart survive and? Why do you think there are so many imports from China? Consumers want what is CHEAP, not what works. So consumers WANT poisoned toothpaste, poisoned pet food and poisoned toys? You sound like a MBA whose faith is being threatened. There are so many imports from China because it maximizes profits for the companies that sell them. So called cheaper prices that aren't are a side effect. Note the fear speeches we are hearing from companies that import as the time nears where the Congress will be putting in place penalties on imports. Reminds me of the Mattel CEO groveling about how "they failed us" but no mention of cuts in HIS compensation for the poisoning of millions of children. TMT TMT |
#127
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sep 17, 12:29 pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article .com, Too_Many_Tools wrote: Quality determines sales...which determines profits...which determines his compensation. Tie his compensation to QA and the problems go away..and your children will not be poisoned. hasn't worked so far. If anything the attempts to play with CEO compensation has made things worse. When people are getting paid in stock options, etc., then making the stock go up becomes paramount and cooking the books becomes inevitable. So does jailtime. Ever notice how they whined about the new requirements they had placed on them after Enron? CEOs as a vast majority are hypocrites who have gotten to where they are by climbing over bodies. TMT |
#128
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sep 17, 12:32 pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article .com, Too_Many_Tools wrote: Not knowing when to say "No" to a retailer demanding cost reductions is called "corporate greed". Actually it is called staying in business. Interesting that every body gets all bent about monopolistic practices, but nothing is said about monopsonist, where the BUYER has the power. WalMart is the poster child for this kind. I and the business world doesn't buy that...anyone can say "No"...anyone. Companies made money before the Walmart business model. All those companies that don't deal with Walmart still make money...I wonder how? Do research on "Rubbermaid" as to how management's greed can destroy a company. It is Business 101 that a company should never have only one customer that is your major customer. Rubbermaid is a case of management who made too much money and had too few brains. TMT |
#129
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sep 17, 1:15 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote: On Sep 17, 9:32 am, George wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: Now you are telling us that the consumer wants to give their children poisonious toys?!?!?! But he didn't say that. Our current Walmart driven culture is that the only thing that matters is price. Thats what gets us into melamine flavored dog food and toys with lead paint. If you keep on squeezing suppliers and looking in every dark alley for cheap stuff you will find it. Wrong...what gets us poisoned dog food, poisoned toothpaste and poisoned toys is that American companies are not doing QA to save a buck and passing those savings on to the CEO's compensation. And we had a Republican Congress and President who allowed it to happen while being compensated for it. Consumers always choose quality over price when the kids and the dog are dropping dead. TMT I'm starting to think you have a hard-on for corporate management. If consumers bought quality BEFORE, the dog and kid would never have been at risk. But the great unwashed masses choose price - not quality. So that's what businesses supplied them. It's the BUYER who sets the selling price. And the quality. Basic economics... Look, ok, it's fun to sit at the computer and vent, but what really do you think you are changing here? Nothing...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - LOL...pretty myoptic aren't you? Change starts with a single person. The Internet is used by millions..a collective conscious. These same discussions are being typed and read by millions of parents who will be making the buying decisions this Christmas. More than one parent will be bringing a lead testing kit to the store before making their purchase. Let's just sit back and watch retail toy sales this Christmas. What goes around and is coming around for Mattel....right between the eyes. Why else would the Mattel CEO be groveling on the news? Exercise? LOL TMT |
#130
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sep 17, 2:40 pm, Ignoramus26157 ignoramus26...@NOSPAM.
26157.invalid wrote: On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:03:19 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote: On Sep 17, 9:28 am, Ignoramus26157 ignoramus26...@NOSPAM. 26157.invalid wrote: On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:05:58 -0700, Tom Gardner wrote: Do CEOs make too much? Why is that? Could it be that they are hired to do a job and that's what the job is worth? Why do you resent high-paying jobs? Tom, it would be helpful to get acquainted with the issue of CEO compensation a little more closely, before invoking cheap capitalist rhetoric. The problem with "CEO compensation" is that CEOs wield a lot of corporate power and subvert the board and "compensation committees", who nominally set CEO salary, stuffing them with cronies, hiring complicit "compensation consultants", and forcing them to agree to pay them beyond what they are worth. I am very skeptical of the possibility that there are more than one or two people, if that many, who really are worth beyond a few millions of dollars per year. If you would like, I can point you to a couple of Warren Buffett's annual letters to shareholders that explain this issue well. i Ig is right. A quiz: 1) who promotes such cheap rhetoric (that there is free market in setting CEO compensation)? ANSWER: CEOs 2) Who selects media outfits when spending corporate advertising dollars? ANSWER: CEOs 3) Does media like to **** off those who pay them ANSWER: try guessing i- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ig is smart man. TMT |
#131
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sep 17, 1:15 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote: On Sep 17, 9:32 am, George wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: Now you are telling us that the consumer wants to give their children poisonious toys?!?!?! But he didn't say that. Our current Walmart driven culture is that the only thing that matters is price. Thats what gets us into melamine flavored dog food and toys with lead paint. If you keep on squeezing suppliers and looking in every dark alley for cheap stuff you will find it. Wrong...what gets us poisoned dog food, poisoned toothpaste and poisoned toys is that American companies are not doing QA to save a buck and passing those savings on to the CEO's compensation. And we had a Republican Congress and President who allowed it to happen while being compensated for it. Consumers always choose quality over price when the kids and the dog are dropping dead. TMT I'm starting to think you have a hard-on for corporate management. If consumers bought quality BEFORE, the dog and kid would never have been at risk. But the great unwashed masses choose price - not quality. So that's what businesses supplied them. It's the BUYER who sets the selling price. And the quality. Basic economics... Look, ok, it's fun to sit at the computer and vent, but what really do you think you are changing here? Nothing...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If consumers bought quality BEFORE, the dog and kid would never have been at risk. The consumer did buy a product that they thought was sufficient quality...the dog and kid didn't die. The product was changed without that information being passed on to the consumer. Guess how much credibility the respective industries and retailers have now with the consumers that decide their profits? Z*E*R*O TMT |
#132
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:17:33 -0700, "Tom Gardner"
wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... On Sep 17, 12:53 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote: "Bob Ward" wrote in message ... On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:05:58 -0700, "Tom Gardner" wrote: Sit back and watch the toy companies...they are going to be used as a lesson for the rest of Corporate America as to what happens when you cut corners to make the CEO bonus larger. TMT Do CEOs make too much? Why is that? Could it be that they are hired to do a job and that's what the job is worth? Why do you resent high-paying jobs? So you think that CEOs should be rewarded for driving the company toi the brink of bankruptcy? It's not that simple. The CEO doesn't do day-to-day QC but...somebody down his chain of command does and that head will roll. The captain of a ship is ultimately responsible for everything on the ship but doesn't handle the operation of the milkshake machine in the lounge, he delegates that...get it?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - So if the CEO isn't ultimately responsible for the company's performance, why is he making the big bucks? Seems you like to argue the "have the cake and eat it too" approach Tom. You wouldn't happen to be an owner of a business, would you? TMT You know what I'm trying to say. I'm just not communicating it well. It's really a tiny percentage of CEOs that make truly big bucks and you don't hear about most because they do a good job. Why do companies offer huge compensation for a top-notch CEO? If the job is done right, the right guy can make the company perform wonders. Great job...if you can get it. So, in your world, the CEO gets all of the credit for success, but none of the blame for failure? A-****ing-mazing! |
#133
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sep 18, 12:17 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ups.com... On Sep 17, 12:53 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote: "Bob Ward" wrote in message . .. On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:05:58 -0700, "Tom Gardner" wrote: Sit back and watch the toy companies...they are going to be used as a lesson for the rest of Corporate America as to what happens when you cut corners to make the CEO bonus larger. TMT Do CEOs make too much? Why is that? Could it be that they are hired to do a job and that's what the job is worth? Why do you resent high-paying jobs? So you think that CEOs should be rewarded for driving the company toi the brink of bankruptcy? It's not that simple. The CEO doesn't do day-to-day QC but...somebody down his chain of command does and that head will roll. The captain of a ship is ultimately responsible for everything on the ship but doesn't handle the operation of the milkshake machine in the lounge, he delegates that...get it?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - So if the CEO isn't ultimately responsible for the company's performance, why is he making the big bucks? Seems you like to argue the "have the cake and eat it too" approach Tom. You wouldn't happen to be an owner of a business, would you? TMT You know what I'm trying to say. I'm just not communicating it well. It's really a tiny percentage of CEOs that make truly big bucks and you don't hear about most because they do a good job. Why do companies offer huge compensation for a top-notch CEO? If the job is done right, the right guy can make the company perform wonders. Great job...if you can get it. That's not actually true, at least as far as long-term results. I'm reading an interesting study, and compensation isn't the be-all and end-all of finding a top-notch CEO. Top-notch executive compensation keeps the right person, it does not necessarily get a company the right person. V. -- Veronique Chez Sheep |
#134
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:55:07 -0700, RickH
wrote: On Sep 16, 9:23 pm, Sevenhundred Elves wrote: wrote: Bob Ward wrote: On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:23:44 GMT, "Jerry Foster" wrote: I don't know the geometry of your chairs, but, in the case of a simple hammock, the tension on the supports greatly exceeds the weight of the person in the hammock. How greatly depends on how much the hammock is allowed to sag. I question your geometry. I question your trigonometry. Especially on a simple hammock, where the design requires TWO points of support. No way can you DOUBLE the user's weight by any kind of angle trickery. What is the tangent of 90 degrees? Xho Maybe you should explain what kind of hammock you mean. I think I know what you're getting at, and what the misunderstanding is. Below is my idea of a hammock. In this type of hammock the fasteners are attached to the beam. The only force on the fasteners is what is necessary to hold up the seat and its occupants. (ASCII art, non-proportional font required for viewing) _____.___________________________________._____ |_____|___________________________________|_____| -- Beam || 0-- Fastener 0 || || | | || || | | || || | | ||--Support || | | || || | | || || | | || || |-- Chain | || || | | || || | | || || | | || || | _________________________________ | || || |/ \| || || | | || || | | || || | Backrest | || || | | || || | | || || | _________________________________ | || || |´ `| || || | Seat | || || |___________________________________| || || || || || || || || || \\// -- Grass \\// That's a "Porch Swing" seat in the USA, and the beam is often the roof structure of the porch it's mounted on. But I believe you were thinking about something like what I've shown below. In this type of hammock the force on the fasteners easily exceeds the weight of the seat with occupants, because of the geometry, just like you say. The drawing below is impractical unless you have some very strong support posts, or they have back-guys on them, from compound leverage you will be concentrating a LOT of force pulling the two posts together. If you had to do it, the chains would need to have a lot of slack to ease the tension load - and you are still going to need either very mature trees for posts or back-guys. | | | | |___| Fastener |___| |___}0 0{___| | | \ / | | | | \ / | | | | \Chain / | | | | \ / | | | | \ / | | | | \ Ring Chain Ring / | | | | 0-----------------------------------0 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |--Support | | |-- Two Chains - One each side -- | | | | | | to backrest, one each side | | | | | | to seat to minimize fore-aft | | | | | | instability | | | | | | | | | | | | _________________________________ | | | | | 0/ \0 | | | | | | | | | | | Backrest | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | _________________________________ | | | | | 0´ `0 | | | | | Seat | | | | | |___________________________________| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \\||// \\|||// This should neatly reconcile your different opinions, I hope. S.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Oh my god, you've got way too much free time on your hands Me too. And your point is...? ;-) -- Bruce -- |
#135
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ups.com... On Sep 17, 12:53 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote: "Bob Ward" wrote in message ... On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:05:58 -0700, "Tom Gardner" wrote: Sit back and watch the toy companies...they are going to be used as a lesson for the rest of Corporate America as to what happens when you cut corners to make the CEO bonus larger. TMT Do CEOs make too much? Why is that? Could it be that they are hired to do a job and that's what the job is worth? Why do you resent high-paying jobs? So you think that CEOs should be rewarded for driving the company toi the brink of bankruptcy? It's not that simple. The CEO doesn't do day-to-day QC but...somebody down his chain of command does and that head will roll. The captain of a ship is ultimately responsible for everything on the ship but doesn't handle the operation of the milkshake machine in the lounge, he delegates that...get it?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - So if the CEO isn't ultimately responsible for the company's performance, why is he making the big bucks? Seems you like to argue the "have the cake and eat it too" approach Tom. You wouldn't happen to be an owner of a business, would you? TMT You know what I'm trying to say. I'm just not communicating it well. It's really a tiny percentage of CEOs that make truly big bucks and you don't hear about most because they do a good job. Why do companies offer huge compensation for a top-notch CEO? If the job is done right, the right guy can make the company perform wonders. Great job...if you can get it. |
#136
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... On Sep 17, 1:11 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ups.com... On Sep 16, 8:34 pm, "Noozer" wrote: Now you are telling us that the consumer wants to give their children poisonious toys?!?!?! Nope... Just cheap toys. You are so full of it. Tom, just sit back and watch the consumer change Mattel's bottom line. It'll be forgotten by Christmas. Sure they won't sell as much, but they'll still make money on the other few dozen items that they brought in from China, which have less noticable defects. The CEO and all others responsible deserve what is going to happen to them. Be given a multi-million dollar retirement package and spend the rest of their lives basking in the south of Spain? You must not have kids...parents have long memories for people who attempt to poison little Johnny. Mattel is going to get creamed this Christmas. The retailers who sell toys are breaking records trying to test product before Christmas...they won't make the deadline. Many parents I know have already decided to go toy lite this Christmas...they can't trust the greedy Corporation that wants larger profits at the expense of their children's health. TMT A smart CEO will turn this to Mattel's advantage...watch and see. Besides, if little Johnny WANTS the latest Mattel toy the parents will cave. Of course, the parents will be doubly assured by Mattel that the toy is extra-special-double-safe...sooo much safer than the competitor's offering.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - A "smart" CEO would never have allowed this situation to develop. It is not rocket science that a company needs to inspect incoming merchandise from a supplier. The losses that Mattel suffers (and they have admited that they will be significant) should come out of the CEO's compensation. Then this problem will not happen again. TMT I'll buy that. But, it's how a screw-up is handled that shows one's mettle. |
#137
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
"Veronique" wrote in message ps.com... Besides, lead paint tastes good. V. -- Veronique Chez Sheep Lead paint chips were good enough for me as a kid and I turned out OK!!! |
#138
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
"Bob Ward" wrote in message ... snip So, in your world, the CEO gets all of the credit for success, but none of the blame for failure? A-****ing-mazing! Oh yea, that's EXACTLY what I said! (And I thought MY comprehension wasn't great...I bow to the master of word twisting!) (Dude, you got issues! Shiny side out on that foil helmet!) |
#139
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
It appears to be a mixed bag, but the general level of quality is somewhat less than we expect in the west. Given the total domination of Chinese products in almost all areas of the market, I woudl say teh Chinese are making exactly the quality level that we expect in the West... |
#140
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
"Geoff" wrote in message ... It appears to be a mixed bag, but the general level of quality is somewhat less than we expect in the west. Given the total domination of Chinese products in almost all areas of the market, I woudl say teh Chinese are making exactly the quality level that we expect in the West... There's nothing like "total domination." China only provides 15.5% of US imports. Mexico and Japan, together, make up 19%. Canada is 16.4%. And so on. On the whole, China's quality is somewhat less than that of our other top trading partners. -- Ed Huntress |
#141
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Geoff" wrote in message ... It appears to be a mixed bag, but the general level of quality is somewhat less than we expect in the west. Given the total domination of Chinese products in almost all areas of the market, I woudl say teh Chinese are making exactly the quality level that we expect in the West... There's nothing like "total domination." China only provides 15.5% of US imports. Mexico and Japan, together, make up 19%. Canada is 16.4%. And so on. Is this based on dollar amounts, or per unit? |
#142
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
"Noozer" wrote in message news:lMWHi.42$A55.8@pd7urf2no... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Geoff" wrote in message ... It appears to be a mixed bag, but the general level of quality is somewhat less than we expect in the west. Given the total domination of Chinese products in almost all areas of the market, I woudl say teh Chinese are making exactly the quality level that we expect in the West... There's nothing like "total domination." China only provides 15.5% of US imports. Mexico and Japan, together, make up 19%. Canada is 16.4%. And so on. Is this based on dollar amounts, or per unit? Dollars. If you tried to do it in units, you'd have to ask, units of what? -- Ed Huntress |
#143
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Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Sep 17, 9:24 am, George wrote: clifto wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: The stockholders would get a larger dividend if the CEO got a smaller salary. Not if the smaller salary got a less skilled CEO. Salary has little to do with quality once you are in the CEO isle. The main thing that is needed is renumeration should be based on true long term performance (that isn't derived from quickie fixes). Quality has EVERYTHING to do with what the CEO should be paid. Problem is the theorists who define quality as conformance to specifications. Then everything the CEO specifies becomes "quality". -- If you really believe carbon dioxide causes global warming, you should stop exhaling. |
#144
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Pet Food, Toothpaste, Lead Paint, and now....
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Noozer" wrote in message news:lMWHi.42$A55.8@pd7urf2no... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message .... ...China only provides 15.5% of US imports. ... Is this based on dollar amounts, or per unit? Dollars. If you tried to do it in units, you'd have to ask, units of what? But would be interesting in units of various products to see what fraction of actual sales units of various commodity products are of whose origin. Some things seem to be _only_ available as Chinese-made these days... -- |
#145
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Given the total domination of Chinese products in almost all areas of
the market, I woudl say teh Chinese are making exactly the quality level that we expect in the West... There's nothing like "total domination." China only provides 15.5% of US imports. Mexico and Japan, together, make up 19%. Canada is 16.4%. And so on. Is this based on dollar amounts, or per unit? Dollars. If you tried to do it in units, you'd have to ask, units of what? Units of product. Of course the Chinese will have a smaller percentage of the DOLLAR value of imports... their cheap prices is what brings it in. If 90% of all imports only accounts for 10% of the dollar value of imports then dollar value isn't a very good measuring stick. |
#146
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"Noozer" wrote in message news:%AXHi.90$A55.83@pd7urf2no... Given the total domination of Chinese products in almost all areas of the market, I woudl say teh Chinese are making exactly the quality level that we expect in the West... There's nothing like "total domination." China only provides 15.5% of US imports. Mexico and Japan, together, make up 19%. Canada is 16.4%. And so on. Is this based on dollar amounts, or per unit? Dollars. If you tried to do it in units, you'd have to ask, units of what? Units of product. Toy whistles, or diesel engines? Of course the Chinese will have a smaller percentage of the DOLLAR value of imports... their cheap prices is what brings it in. Not so cheap that 15.5% of dollar value would represent "total domination" If 90% of all imports only accounts for 10% of the dollar value of imports then dollar value isn't a very good measuring stick. True enough. Now, why don't you check a few representative products and see how China's prices compare with others? What you'll find is that, in comparable products, their price advantage is nowhere near enough to jump from 15.5% to "total domination." -- Ed Huntress |
#147
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In article %AXHi.90$A55.83@pd7urf2no, "Noozer"
wrote: Of course the Chinese will have a smaller percentage of the DOLLAR value of imports... their cheap prices is what brings it in. Tells you nothing. Then you equate a car imported from final assembly in Canada the same as a 10 cent trinket from China. If 90% of all imports only accounts for 10% of the dollar value of imports then dollar value isn't a very good measuring stick. Of course it is. You are looking at dollar value because that is the measurement. You don't have a current accounts deficit of units, but of dollars. |
#148
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There's nothing like "total domination." China only provides 15.5% of
US imports. Mexico and Japan, together, make up 19%. Canada is 16.4%. And so on. Is this based on dollar amounts, or per unit? Dollars. If you tried to do it in units, you'd have to ask, units of what? Units of product. Toy whistles, or diesel engines? Yes. : ) How many toy whistles manufactured in the US? How many imported from China? How many from elsewhere? Obviously you can't compare whistles to diesel engines... Pick a product and compare that. Of course the Chinese will have a smaller percentage of the DOLLAR value of imports... their cheap prices is what brings it in. Not so cheap that 15.5% of dollar value would represent "total domination" It is if it's the highest percentange and the next highest percentage is only 10%... If 90% of all imports only accounts for 10% of the dollar value of imports then dollar value isn't a very good measuring stick. True enough. Now, why don't you check a few representative products and see how China's prices compare with others? What you'll find is that, in comparable products, their price advantage is nowhere near enough to jump from 15.5% to "total domination." Not really possible. Walk into consumer stores and try and find a USA made television or microwave oven. I'd call it domination when 90% of the stock in a store is made in China. |
#149
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"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message ... In article %AXHi.90$A55.83@pd7urf2no, "Noozer" wrote: Of course the Chinese will have a smaller percentage of the DOLLAR value of imports... their cheap prices is what brings it in. Tells you nothing. Then you equate a car imported from final assembly in Canada the same as a 10 cent trinket from China. No, you compare how many "trinkets" are made in Canada as compared to how many are brought in from China. Ditto for the cars. How many a built domestically and how many imported? (Of course, then you'd have to argue origin of manufacture for the content of the vehicles.) If 90% of all imports only accounts for 10% of the dollar value of imports then dollar value isn't a very good measuring stick. Of course it is. You are looking at dollar value because that is the measurement. You don't have a current accounts deficit of units, but of dollars. So, if one consumer purchases a single Canadian made shovel for $50 and ten consumers purchase a Chinese made shovel for $5 the market is even? I think not. 1 Canadian shovel does not equal 10 Chinese shovels. |
#150
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In article 3eYHi.196022$fJ5.180033@pd7urf1no,
"Noozer" wrote: "Kurt Ullman" wrote in message ... In article %AXHi.90$A55.83@pd7urf2no, "Noozer" wrote: Of course the Chinese will have a smaller percentage of the DOLLAR value of imports... their cheap prices is what brings it in. Tells you nothing. Then you equate a car imported from final assembly in Canada the same as a 10 cent trinket from China. No, you compare how many "trinkets" are made in Canada as compared to how many are brought in from China. Ditto for the cars. How many a built domestically and how many imported? (Of course, then you'd have to argue origin of manufacture for the content of the vehicles.) What does that tell you that is interesting? It gives you snap shot of a specific industry. Some will do well in China, others don't. Talk about obvious. If 90% of all imports only accounts for 10% of the dollar value of imports then dollar value isn't a very good measuring stick. Of course it is. You are looking at dollar value because that is the measurement. You don't have a current accounts deficit of units, but of dollars. So, if one consumer purchases a single Canadian made shovel for $50 and ten consumers purchase a Chinese made shovel for $5 the market is even? I think not. 1 Canadian shovel does not equal 10 Chinese shovels. In the economy and especially in things like balance of payments, exactly the same. Besides, this tells nothing about the quality or anything else of interest about the shovels. Differences in steel, for instance between the two. |
#151
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On Sep 17, 10:47 am, willshak wrote:
on 9/16/2007 11:19 PM Jeff Wisnia said the following: Has anyone seen an Indian (asian) phone book? How many are named Singh (lion)? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY To email, remove the double zeroes after @- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Quote; Q: Why do Sikh men have the last name Singh and all women, have the last name Kaur? A: Singh means a lion and Kaur means a princess. In Sikhism these titles eliminate discrimination based on "family name" (which denotes a specific caste) and reinforces that all Sikhs are sovereigns under God. This tradition started because through the last name one could distinguish what (Hindu) caste you are from. Just by hearing the last name they would say, "Oh, you are the lowest" or "Oh, you are the middle" or "Oh, you are from high class". Thus the Guru eliminated the last name from all the Sikhs so that no one could tell the caste and achieved equality for all Sikhs. He gave Singh as a last name to all the Sikh men and Kaur to all the Sikh women. Women were not treated as equals before the time of the Gurus, and so to ensure equality, a movement for women's liberation was started five hundred years ago with the Sikh faith. The Guru said, "You are my beloved princesses, my daughters. You must be respected. How can this world be without you?" He admonished men for being rude and bad to women. He said, "Without women this world cannot be. So give them rights, give them equal respect. " So the Sikh faith says that you must respect women. Previously, when a woman would get married, she would take the last name of the family she went to. Since Guru eliminated the name, he said, "You don't have to take anybody else's name. You are an individual, you are a princess, and you keep Kaur as your last name." It gave women a lot of self-respect. .................................................. .................................................. ..... In regard to equal rights for women sounds like a faith ahead of it's time! Rather like saying all Amuricans should take the name 'Yank' or Canadians should take the name 'Beaver' (or Moose!) if/when they become a confirmed Christian! A recent fuss in Canada revolved around a misunderstanding that people using Singh applying for immigration had to 'change' their names. This was aggravated by a badly worded government letter. In fact applicants are asked, to, as they do anyway when applying for a bank account, credit card etc. to have or adopt a third name for better identification purposes. I live in a community where the first mayor was named Bill Manning. There were also several other Bill (William) Mannings some with a middle initial some without. So day to day the individuals had other names, such as "Carry's (his mother) Bill" or "Bill Lower Sreet Manning". etc. So to all the John Smiths in the USA and Canada, watch out someone doesn't steal your identity! :-) |
#152
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So, if one consumer purchases a single Canadian made shovel for $50 and
ten consumers purchase a Chinese made shovel for $5 the market is even? I think not. 1 Canadian shovel does not equal 10 Chinese shovels. In the economy and especially in things like balance of payments, exactly the same. Besides, this tells nothing about the quality or anything else of interest about the shovels. Differences in steel, for instance between the two. My point is that eventually all that folks will buy is the $5 shovel and then what happens to the company making $50 shovels? |
#153
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"Noozer" wrote in message news:2aYHi.196016$fJ5.64801@pd7urf1no... There's nothing like "total domination." China only provides 15.5% of US imports. Mexico and Japan, together, make up 19%. Canada is 16.4%. And so on. Is this based on dollar amounts, or per unit? Dollars. If you tried to do it in units, you'd have to ask, units of what? Units of product. Toy whistles, or diesel engines? Yes. : ) How many toy whistles manufactured in the US? How many imported from China? How many from elsewhere? Obviously you can't compare whistles to diesel engines... Pick a product and compare that. Of course the Chinese will have a smaller percentage of the DOLLAR value of imports... their cheap prices is what brings it in. Not so cheap that 15.5% of dollar value would represent "total domination" It is if it's the highest percentange and the next highest percentage is only 10%... If 90% of all imports only accounts for 10% of the dollar value of imports then dollar value isn't a very good measuring stick. True enough. Now, why don't you check a few representative products and see how China's prices compare with others? What you'll find is that, in comparable products, their price advantage is nowhere near enough to jump from 15.5% to "total domination." Not really possible. Walk into consumer stores and try and find a USA made television or microwave oven. I'd call it domination when 90% of the stock in a store is made in China. Then take automobile engines. Chevrolet imports lots of them from Shanghai. Compare the costs with those made in Canada. Or electric motors. As of a few years ago, the US sold more electric motors to China than we bought from them. Silverware. Eyeglasses. Leather shoes. Men's suits. Automobiles. Motorcycles. Replacement windows. Insulation. Lumber. Aluminum. Detergents. Electric drills. Outboard motors and boats. Trucks. Aircraft. House siding. Meat. Vegetables. Fishing rods. And so on, for an overwhelming list of products. China "dominates" in the cheap end of consumer products. Their quality is ****-poor. They're a natural marriage with Wal-Mart. -- Ed Huntress |
#154
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Sevenhundred Elves wrote:
_____.___________________________________._____ |_____|___________________________________|_____| -- Beam || 0-- Fastener 0 || || | | || || | | || || | | ||--Support || | | || || | | || || | | || || |-- Chain | || || | | || || | | || || | | || || | _________________________________ | || || |/ \| || || | | || || | | || || | Backrest | || || | | || || | | || || | _________________________________ | || || |´ `| || || | Seat | || || |___________________________________| || || || || || || || || || \\// -- Grass \\// But I believe you were thinking about something like what I've shown below. In this type of hammock the force on the fasteners easily exceeds the weight of the seat with occupants, because of the geometry, just like you say. | | | | | | Fastener Chain | | |___| / v |___| |____}------,-----------------------------------,------{____| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |--Support | | |-- Chain | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | _________________________________ | | | | | |/ \| | | | | | | | | | | | Backrest | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | _________________________________ | | | | | |´ `| | | | | | Seat | | | | | |___________________________________| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \\||// \\|||// This should neatly reconcile your different opinions, I hope. S. Those are called a 'Porch Swing', hung from the roof of a front porch to sit and read, or to wait for the house to cool off after a long, hot day. It was also where young people sat during a date, before movies and other distractions. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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Neal Eckhardt wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 14:07:40 -0400, Lee Ayrton wrote: Groups list noted. On Sun, 16 Sep 2007, Uncle Monster wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: On the other hand, there are some Chinese plants that are producing world-class injection-molded parts, which means they're making world-class injection molds. Those plants I've read about were managed by western or Hong Kong-based management. It appears to be a mixed bag, but the general level of quality is somewhat less than we expect in the west. When I was a kid, "Made In Japan" meant "cheap junk". An American professor developed the science of quality control, American companies blew him off, the Japanese listened. Give the Chinese time, they're learning. The Version That I Heard held that Japan in the 1950s was filling an available market niche: Cheaply made goods. It wasn't that Japan didn't have the talent to engineer and build quality goods (witness their war production, particularly their aircraft and optics). Rather, they were making what the world would buy. Even while they were making trinklets and easily broken junk, Nikon was getting favorable notices in the New York Times. http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/port...te_history.htm The version I heard was that all those cheap toys from the 50s were manufactured for the Chinese market. Theywere never meant to be sent to the US. Somebody bought them and started shipping them over here. Then explain the crappy electronics they shipped here, well into the '80s. It was designed and built for 120 VAC, 60 Hz. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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HeyBub wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote: Walmart is doing this for their good...not the good of the consumer. Dunno about that. According to a study done by Walmart, the company has provided more assistance to lower-income Americans than all the welfare programs (Social Security, Medicare, WIC, etc.) combined. According to a study done by by Hitler he did more to relieve overcrowding in Jewish communities than anyone else, in history. According to a study done by grossly obese people, there is nothing wrong with weighing over 400 pounds. According to a study done by the French, there is nothing wrong with the Metric system... -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#157
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Tom Gardner wrote:
"Veronique" wrote in message ps.com... Besides, lead paint tastes good. V. -- Veronique Chez Sheep Lead paint chips were good enough for me as a kid and I turned out OK!!! OK? Well, I wouldn't go THAT far!!! ;-) -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#158
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Hactar wrote:
In article , Michael A. Terrell wrote: George wrote: RickH wrote: China can make things real cheap and fast, but they dont believe in QA departments. Don't kid yourself. They are quite capable of making quality stuff. Its the "Walmart mentality" buyers who keep on insisting on even cheaper prices so then the quality falls as expected. There was some ass on sci.electronics.design a while back trying to sell his company's SMD crap and bragging, "It only has a 1% failure rate". Think about this: If a board has 100 parts that means on average, you have a 100% average failure rate for an assembled board. If it has more parts, the rate goes up, as well. How can it possibly go up? A basic course in probability would serve you well. "1% failure rate" means each part has a 99% probability of NOT failing (in some unspecified timespan, maybe on delivery). Their spec was at delivery. Put 100 of these together and (assuming the failures are independent) the assemblage has a 0.99^100 = 0.366 = 36.6% probability of not failing (in the same timespan). That means a 63.3% chance of failure. How many products have you see with less than 100 components? The last design I worked on had over 5,000 SMD components. You've never met Mr. Murphy have you? Motorola had well over 100% failure rate at the end of the production line on their TV sets when they sold their consumer electronics division to Matsu****a. The components they were using were well over .1% failure rate, yet they had multiple defects in most sets, and very few that worked in final test. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#159
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Neal Eckhardt wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:54:53 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote: Testing fuses is sort of like testing firecrackers isn't it? The good ones are rendered unusable if they "pass". G I heard a story a few years back about a company that went to 100% testing of all components. The production department got a shipment of fuses with the QC statements that they all blew at the proper amperage. That isn't how you test a fuse. There is QC, by monitoring the temperature with an IR camera or thermometer. Some Defense contractors were required to do 100% testing on components, because the product was for mission critical use. Cincinnati Electronics had a couple people who took reeled passives and ran them on automated test fixtures. If a part was out of spec, it was automatically cut from the T&R. If the percentage was too high, the whole reel went back to the vendor. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#160
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In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote: According to a study done by by Hitler he did more to relieve overcrowding in Jewish communities than anyone else, in history. Cool we can invoke Godwin and kill off this idiocy According to a study done by the French, there is nothing wrong with the Metric system... Nothing at all wrong with the metric system. Now the French.. that is another thing altogether. |
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