Not on your life. This device has no lockable, visual, manual switch
between the generator and the grid. "Automatic" is just not allowed
for human protection.

There is a need for a lockable switch to isolate the device for
linesman protection. The automatic portion is to eliminate backfeeds
and/or other system protection/ convenience requirements. Never for
human protection.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Solar Flaire :
I doubt this would ever be approved for Canadian usage. I am not
sure
if automatic transfer switches would be allowed without a lockable
manual switch between it and the grid.

Automatic transfer switches are permitted. Otherwise, we'd not
have automatic cutover generators, as sold at HD.

If you broke the seal for the meter mounting to the base it would
be
considered stealing power and probably never allowed.

This device conceptually just makes the meter base larger, and has
provisions for security sealing it too. Otherwise, FPL wouldn't
permit it. Obviously they do.

But I would imagine that the local power authority has to approve
of the device before they'd allow you to install one.

[I believe that contractors have to contact the power
company to inform them that the meter base has been diddled
with so they can come out to reseal the meter.]

If you were to somehow get a hold of one up here, you really should
call the power company before installation.

Is UL listed the same as UL approved?

Yes. Which means it's approved up here unless it runs afoul of
something specific in the CEC, or Hydro throws a fit.

[Ontario Hydro has two separate "special" meter trial programmes
going
on, similarly restricted in region. "Smart meters" and something
else I forget...]

To tell you the truth, I'm _very_ much surprised I haven't seen
something like this before. It's the obvious place. It's
just not something a homeowner is usually able to install
themselves ....

An even simpler way would be to have some sort of object that
"mimics"
the back of the meter and has a plug for the generator. Power out,
yank
the meter, install the adapter, plugin the generator, and voila!

When power comes back, pull out the adapter and plug the meter back
in.

Problem being that you'd have to get the power company back to
reseal the meter after grid power is restored.

[I have some experience with our power company that indicates that
they don't have too much trouble with things like this, especially
during emergencies. But if everybody started doing it, they would
change their minds pretty quick!]
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after
them.

"Solar Flaire" wrote on 22 May 2007 in
group alt.home.repair:

No. Canada is on the CEC.
Does the US use the Canadian dollar?

We love Canadian dollars. Please send us all your spares.
--
Steve B.
New Life Home Improvement

Solar Flaire wrote:
No. Canada is on the CEC.
Does the US use the Canadian dollar?

Only when we feel loony.

Maybe DD214 would do the same thing???


AFAIK, nothing works as well, while being as human safe as DDT.

You still use DDT?


No. I've never used it, but I could probably find some for you if
you're thirsty, Mayor.


If you do can you send some my way? I have fire ants, sand gnats, deer
flies, mosquitoes and several other biting bugs I'd like to get rid of.

On May 22, 11:25 am, wrote:
On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:00:54 -0400, wrote:
On 21 May 2007 19:51:29 -0700, sparky wrote:

I am amazed at how many truly ignorant people are advising that some
variety of interlock is OK for a transfer switch. It is not only
dangerous but
illegal in both Canada and the US.

There are certainly legal, listed breaker interlock systems that are
legal in the US. Look in a Square D or Siemens catalog.
I can't speak for canada but I bet these are CSA listed too.

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ele...ion/Load%20Cen...

This is a mechanical interlock in the provided link. It is much
different than
somebody putting two padlocks on two switches and the saying the will
throw
away one key.

On May 22, 11:00 am, wrote:
On 21 May 2007 19:51:29 -0700, sparky wrote:

I am amazed at how many truly ignorant people are advising that some
variety of interlock is OK for a transfer switch. It is not only
dangerous but
illegal in both Canada and the US.

There are certainly legal, listed breaker interlock systems that are
legal in the US. Look in a Square D or Siemens catalog.
I can't speak for canada but I bet these are CSA listed too.

The OP was talking about a keyed interlock with maybe ONE key or
maybe many more keys.

I should have explained more clearly.

According to Solar Flaire :
Not on your life. This device has no lockable, visual, manual switch
between the generator and the grid. "Automatic" is just not allowed
for human protection.

Nonsense. Otherwise every large scale auto-start generator/UPS
(including the _humungous_ ones we have) would be illegal.

Yes, they'll have manual switches as a disconnecting means, for test
etc. But that doesn't mean that when the system is in normal
operation it can't operate the transfer switch automatically.

There is a need for a lockable switch to isolate the device for
linesman protection. The automatic portion is to eliminate backfeeds
and/or other system protection/ convenience requirements.

Backfeed elimination is isolation for linesman protection. That's
what transfer switches do.

Never for human protection.

Linesmen aren't human?
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Solar Flaire :
Sorry!..Wronmg! wrong! wrong!

That device is not legal in Canada and would never be passed on an
inspection!

Where is the neutral disconnected?

What makes you think it _isn't_ disconnected inside the meter base?

Did you find schematics for the thing?
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Solar Flaire :
There is that reading ability thing again!
Where did you see me say they were selling illegal transfer switches?

The comment, once again to clarify was . HD has a shelf full of
illegal (in Canada) transfer switches and they hide them (not sell
them) to cover up their code ignorance. (the purchasing agent thinks
he is still in the US)

Let me get this straight. HD Canada, which has purchasing independent
of HD US, has agents that somehow manage to get confused about which
country they live in, except that they get it right for just about
everything _but_ transfer switches, and continues to spend money
buying, stocking and shipping expensive objects they can't and won't sell?

I really really don't think HD is that dumb. They'd be broke
if their inventory management system was that broken.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Solar Flaire wrote:

Maybe DD214 would do the same thing???


It will kill you, if you aren't man enough to handle it.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Solar Flaire wrote:

Maybe DD214 would do the same thing???


it looks like you'll never know:


OrgName: Golden Triangle On Line
OrgID: GTO
Address: 236 Victoria St N 2nd Floor
City: Kitchener
StateProv: ON
PostalCode: N2H-5C8
Country: CA

ReferralServer: rwhois://rwhois.golden.net:4321

NetRange: 216.59.224.0 - 216.59.255.255
CIDR: 216.59.224.0/19
NetName: GOLDEN-BLK-4
NetHandle: NET-216-59-224-0-1
Parent: NET-216-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: NS.GOLDEN.NET
NameServer: NS2.GOLDEN.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 2003-10-16
Updated: 2005-04-25

RTechHandle: FD194-ARIN
RTechName: Dominguez, Francisco
RTechPhone: +1-519-576-3334
RTechEmail:

OrgTechHandle: FD194-ARIN
OrgTechName: Dominguez, Francisco
OrgTechPhone: +1-519-576-3334
OrgTechEmail:


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Solar Flaire :
There is that reading ability thing again!
Where did you see me say they were selling illegal transfer switches?

The comment, once again to clarify was . HD has a shelf full of
illegal (in Canada) transfer switches and they hide them (not sell
them) to cover up their code ignorance. (the purchasing agent thinks
he is still in the US)

Let me get this straight. HD Canada, which has purchasing independent
of HD US, has agents that somehow manage to get confused about which
country they live in, except that they get it right for just about
everything _but_ transfer switches, and continues to spend money
buying, stocking and shipping expensive objects they can't and won't sell?

I really really don't think HD is that dumb. They'd be broke
if their inventory management system was that broken.


You're right. Somebody either has a hardon for HD Canada, or they
only have a couple working neurons.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

According to Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com:
In article ,
(Chris Lewis) writes:

| This device conceptually just makes the meter base larger, and has
| provisions for security sealing it too. Otherwise, FPL wouldn't
| permit it. Obviously they do.
|
| But I would imagine that the local power authority has to approve
| of the device before they'd allow you to install one.
|
| [I believe that contractors have to contact the power
| company to inform them that the meter base has been diddled
| with so they can come out to reseal the meter.]
|
| If you were to somehow get a hold of one up here, you really should
| call the power company before installation.
|
| Is UL listed the same as UL approved?
|
| Yes. Which means it's approved up here unless it runs afoul of
| something specific in the CEC, or Hydro throws a fit.
|
| [Ontario Hydro has two separate "special" meter trial programmes going
| on, similarly restricted in region. "Smart meters" and something
| else I forget...]
|
| To tell you the truth, I'm _very_ much surprised I haven't seen
| something like this before. It's the obvious place. It's
| just not something a homeowner is usually able to install
| themselves ....

One concern I have is the neutral/ground connection between the base
and meter. To the extent that it exists at all it is not intended to
handle much current; most split-phase meters are 4-wire devices. I
assume (hope?) that installation of the adapter involves some sort of
jumper which in turn might require an additional lug to be added to the
original base.

You'd have to install a jumper on the neutral bar to the special
generator plug I guess.

| An even simpler way would be to have some sort of object that "mimics"
| the back of the meter and has a plug for the generator. Power out, yank
| the meter, install the adapter, plugin the generator, and voila!
|
| When power comes back, pull out the adapter and plug the meter back
| in.
|
| Problem being that you'd have to get the power company back to
| reseal the meter after grid power is restored.

[Obviously it wouldn't work as stated, because the meter plug doesn't have
a neutral.]

In addition to the neutral/ground problem, what if you accidentally
install the adapter upside down? Around here bases are typically
symmetrical so I'm not sure you could make the adapter failsafe
against back-feeding without modifying the base. But then you'd
want to arrange that the adapter couldn't be inserted into an
unmodified base which would make the base incompatible with a
normal meter...

There's a patent on that:

http://www.okpatent.us/medicinal_den...wer_meter.html

If you can get past the patent idiocy of being able to unwind your power
meter by rotating the meter 180 degrees ;-)

Note that if the generator doesn't bond ground and neutral, you apparently
don't have to switch neutral.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In article , (Chris Lewis) writes:
| According to Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com:
| In article ,
| (Chris Lewis) writes:
|
| | This device conceptually just makes the meter base larger, and has
| | provisions for security sealing it too. Otherwise, FPL wouldn't
| | permit it. Obviously they do.
| |
| | But I would imagine that the local power authority has to approve
| | of the device before they'd allow you to install one.
| |
| | [I believe that contractors have to contact the power
| | company to inform them that the meter base has been diddled
| | with so they can come out to reseal the meter.]
| |
| | If you were to somehow get a hold of one up here, you really should
| | call the power company before installation.
| |
| | Is UL listed the same as UL approved?
| |
| | Yes. Which means it's approved up here unless it runs afoul of
| | something specific in the CEC, or Hydro throws a fit.
| |
| | [Ontario Hydro has two separate "special" meter trial programmes going
| | on, similarly restricted in region. "Smart meters" and something
| | else I forget...]
| |
| | To tell you the truth, I'm _very_ much surprised I haven't seen
| | something like this before. It's the obvious place. It's
| | just not something a homeowner is usually able to install
| | themselves ....
|
| One concern I have is the neutral/ground connection between the base
| and meter. To the extent that it exists at all it is not intended to
| handle much current; most split-phase meters are 4-wire devices. I
| assume (hope?) that installation of the adapter involves some sort of
| jumper which in turn might require an additional lug to be added to the
| original base.
|
| You'd have to install a jumper on the neutral bar to the special
| generator plug I guess.

Right. And that of course might involve installing an extra lug or
a different bar. (The typical meter base here has either two full-
sized neutral lugs to join the incoming and outgoing feeds or that
plus a smaller terminal for a local grounding electrode conductor.)
It's too bad since it is so close to a plug-and-play solution... but
not quite.

| | An even simpler way would be to have some sort of object that "mimics"
| | the back of the meter and has a plug for the generator. Power out, yank
| | the meter, install the adapter, plugin the generator, and voila!
| |
| | When power comes back, pull out the adapter and plug the meter back
| | in.
| |
| | Problem being that you'd have to get the power company back to
| | reseal the meter after grid power is restored.
|
| [Obviously it wouldn't work as stated, because the meter plug doesn't have
| a neutral.]
|
| In addition to the neutral/ground problem, what if you accidentally
| install the adapter upside down? Around here bases are typically
| symmetrical so I'm not sure you could make the adapter failsafe
| against back-feeding without modifying the base. But then you'd
| want to arrange that the adapter couldn't be inserted into an
| unmodified base which would make the base incompatible with a
| normal meter...
|
| There's a patent on that:
|
| http://www.okpatent.us/medicinal_den...wer_meter.html

Yes, that solves the easy part. As I said, you can modify the base such
that the adapter plugs in only the right way (and still support a normal
meter or even one modified per that patent). But what you really need
is to prevent the adapter from fitting an unmodified base at all--otherwise
somebody is going to plug into the wrong base and back-feed. Once you've
gone to all that trouble and added a neutral connection you might as well
replace the entire base with one that includes a generator plug. Maybe
that should become a standard product for new construction.

| Note that if the generator doesn't bond ground and neutral, you apparently
| don't have to switch neutral.

Yes, the NEC recognizes generators connected not as separately derived
systems. None of my transfer switches switch the neutral. Interesting thing
about my transfer switches in connection with the original part of this
thread: they are not DPDT knife switches but pairs of DPST knife switches
with a mechanical interlink. I assume this is done to avoid making the boxes
extremely deep. These are UL listed Cutler-Hammer units professionally
installed and inspected.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

no spam wrote:

Maybe DD214 would do the same thing???



AFAIK, nothing works as well, while being as human safe as DDT.

You still use DDT?


No. I've never used it, but I could probably find some for you if
you're thirsty, Mayor.


If you do can you send some my way? I have fire ants, sand gnats, deer
flies, mosquitoes and several other biting bugs I'd like to get rid of.


Rachel Carlson did the world an injustice and in the long run did more
harm than good with her book on DDT. The biggest problem with DDT was
that it was over used, applied way to heavy and it did cause some
problems because of it but they could have been prevented by proper use.

You want to kill fleas..... one application of ddt will wipe em out
completely. All the other stuff doesn't work half as well even with a
heavy application.


John

On Wed, 23 May 2007 17:59:28 -0400, john wrote:
no spam wrote:
Maybe DD214 would do the same thing???

AFAIK, nothing works as well, while being as human safe as DDT.

You still use DDT?

No. I've never used it, but I could probably find some for you if
you're thirsty, Mayor.

If you do can you send some my way? I have fire ants, sand gnats, deer
flies, mosquitoes and several other biting bugs I'd like to get rid of.

Rachel Carlson did the world an injustice and in the long run did more
^^^^^^^
harm than good with her book on DDT. The biggest problem with DDT was
that it was over used, applied way to heavy and it did cause some
problems because of it but they could have been prevented by proper use.

You want to kill fleas..... one application of ddt will wipe em out
completely. All the other stuff doesn't work half as well even with a
heavy application.

Carson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Carson

What's in "Black Flag"?

Cheers!
Rich

I guess you know about the Loonies here then.

"Steve" wrote in message
.128...
"Solar Flaire" wrote on 22 May 2007
in
group alt.home.repair:

No. Canada is on the CEC.
Does the US use the Canadian dollar?

We love Canadian dollars. Please send us all your spares.
--
Steve B.
New Life Home Improvement

OK y'all got me now. What is SDS?

I don't necessarily agree with switching all conductors in all cases
and I think it is for the reason you have stated. I am not positive on
this one but I think there are no exceptions, bonded or not.

If the neutral is never bonded then a back feed can never
happen...hmmmmm. But then if a conductor isn't bonded then it requires
overcurrent protection, isolation and must be continuously ground
detected too.... they win.



wrote in message
news
On Tue, 22 May 2007 22:26:45 -0500, "Solar Flaire"
wrote:

No. Canada is on the CEC.
Does the US use the Canadian dollar?

No but we still get a lot of canadian quarters in our change.
The point is, does the CEC deal differently with separately derived
sources and things that are not SDS?

In the NEC, if you don't bond the neutral in the generator you don't
switch the neutral. The SDS does have the grounded neutral in the
separately derived source.

Schematics for a piece of metal sold as ian interlock kit by Square D?

Try to keep up.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Solar Flaire :
Sorry!..Wronmg! wrong! wrong!

That device is not legal in Canada and would never be passed on an
inspection!

Where is the neutral disconnected?

What makes you think it _isn't_ disconnected inside the meter base?

Did you find schematics for the thing?
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after
them.

Wow! You can read too.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Solar Flaire wrote:

Maybe DD214 would do the same thing???


it looks like you'll never know:


OrgName: Golden Triangle On Line
OrgID: GTO
Address: 236 Victoria St N 2nd Floor
City: Kitchener
StateProv: ON
PostalCode: N2H-5C8
Country: CA

ReferralServer: rwhois://rwhois.golden.net:4321

NetRange: 216.59.224.0 - 216.59.255.255
CIDR: 216.59.224.0/19
NetName: GOLDEN-BLK-4
NetHandle: NET-216-59-224-0-1
Parent: NET-216-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: NS.GOLDEN.NET
NameServer: NS2.GOLDEN.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 2003-10-16
Updated: 2005-04-25

RTechHandle: FD194-ARIN
RTechName: Dominguez, Francisco
RTechPhone: +1-519-576-3334
RTechEmail:

OrgTechHandle: FD194-ARIN
OrgTechName: Dominguez, Francisco
OrgTechPhone: +1-519-576-3334
OrgTechEmail:


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214
to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

What do you expect for minimum wage?

HD opened here with all these "trade experts" in every isle. They
thought they would clean up the market. many long term building
supliers closed down for fear they would never compete.
Five or six years later, HD has no experts left, not even the
industrial accident ones. You can't get anybody to serve you, let
alone know anything about a trade tip. The plumbing isle has a guy
that has heard of PEX pipe and another that doesnt know the difference
between PEX-AL-PEX fittings and even one of the 6 different types of
PEX fittings, if you can find him not busy in the shingles sales isle.

...and you want them to know and understand the electrical safety code
too? Most of them are having a hard time knowing that a 1/2" knockout
isn't a physical threat.


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Solar Flaire :
There is that reading ability thing again!
Where did you see me say they were selling illegal transfer
switches?

The comment, once again to clarify was . HD has a shelf full of
illegal (in Canada) transfer switches and they hide them (not sell
them) to cover up their code ignorance. (the purchasing agent
thinks
he is still in the US)

Let me get this straight. HD Canada, which has purchasing
independent
of HD US, has agents that somehow manage to get confused about which
country they live in, except that they get it right for just about
everything _but_ transfer switches, and continues to spend money
buying, stocking and shipping expensive objects they can't and won't
sell?

I really really don't think HD is that dumb. They'd be broke
if their inventory management system was that broken.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after
them.

You have a definite comprehension problem. How many time have I
explained you have twisted the meaning to something that wasn't
posted?

Read again and think. "where would I use this device in a large
automotive plant?" and "when did manual become automatic?"


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Solar Flaire :
Not on your life. This device has no lockable, visual, manual
switch
between the generator and the grid. "Automatic" is just not allowed
for human protection.

Nonsense. Otherwise every large scale auto-start generator/UPS
(including the _humungous_ ones we have) would be illegal.

Yes, they'll have manual switches as a disconnecting means, for test
etc. But that doesn't mean that when the system is in normal
operation it can't operate the transfer switch automatically.

There is a need for a lockable switch to isolate the device for
linesman protection. The automatic portion is to eliminate
backfeeds
and/or other system protection/ convenience requirements.

Backfeed elimination is isolation for linesman protection. That's
what transfer switches do.

Never for human protection.

Linesmen aren't human?
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after
them.

On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:02:19 -0500, Solar Flaire wrote:

OK y'all got me now. What is SDS?

Take your pick:
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-quer...ct&Acronym=SDS

Cheers!
Rich

Satellite Data System ?

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:02:19 -0500, Solar Flaire wrote:

OK y'all got me now. What is SDS?

Take your pick:
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-quer...ct&Acronym=SDS

Cheers!
Rich

Solar Flaire wrote:

Wow! You can read too.


You need to hire a new comedy writer. I hear that Jeff Foxworthy does
comedy eulogies.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Solar Flaire wrote:

What do you expect for minimum wage?

HD opened here with all these "trade experts" in every isle. They
thought they would clean up the market. many long term building
supliers closed down for fear they would never compete.
Five or six years later, HD has no experts left, not even the
industrial accident ones. You can't get anybody to serve you, let
alone know anything about a trade tip. The plumbing isle has a guy
that has heard of PEX pipe and another that doesnt know the difference
between PEX-AL-PEX fittings and even one of the 6 different types of
PEX fittings, if you can find him not busy in the shingles sales isle.

..and you want them to know and understand the electrical safety code
too? Most of them are having a hard time knowing that a 1/2" knockout
isn't a physical threat.



Is complaining all you can do? HD's firsrt stores were near me, and
they had good people for well over a decade. The local one has several
part time retired electricians working there, as well as plumbers. The
give basic advice, but on complex jobs they tell the customers to either
hire the job, or talk to the county inspectors before starting the job.
They know what they stock, and how to use it. I guess HD Canada isn't
able to find people like this for their stores. Other hardware and
building supply chains are long gone that tried to compete against them,
and none of them are missed.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

So you just threw the term in to confuse the issue then?

US code is not my strong point. Most of the weird stuff will not pass
in Canada where the standards are classically higher.


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:02:19 -0500, "Solar Flaire"
wrote:

OK y'all got me now. What is SDS?

I don't necessarily agree with switching all conductors in all cases
and I think it is for the reason you have stated. I am not positive
on
this one but I think there are no exceptions, bonded or not.

If the neutral is never bonded then a back feed can never
happen...hmmmmm. But then if a conductor isn't bonded then it
requires
overcurrent protection, isolation and must be continuously ground
detected too.... they win.

Separately Derived System. If that term is not familiar to you, code
is not your strong point.
That is another source of power that mimics a utility, in
particular,
one with the ground and neutral that are bonded. You can also
connect
a generator with ground and neutral that are not bonded. In that
case
the bonding jumper in your service with accomplish the same thing
and
you do not switch the neutral in your transfer equipment. In any
case
you want one and only one bonding jumper in the system at any time.

This has to do with parallel grounding paths and has nothing to do
with backfeeding the grid. Your double pole double throw switching
device does that. and it can legally be accomplished with 2 breakers
that are mechanically interlocked. The code does not specify things
that are legal or illegal. The only requirement is that each path is
mutually exclusive.

Since you asked.

Most of the management are USanians and do not understand a higher
ethic required. They order what the mothership tells them to order. If
they get it wrong too often they become drive through attendents at
McDonald's

Nobody can blame them for where they are born.

I am glad you trust the slaes people at HD. I can read.


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Solar Flaire wrote:

What do you expect for minimum wage?

HD opened here with all these "trade experts" in every isle. They
thought they would clean up the market. many long term building
supliers closed down for fear they would never compete.
Five or six years later, HD has no experts left, not even the
industrial accident ones. You can't get anybody to serve you, let
alone know anything about a trade tip. The plumbing isle has a guy
that has heard of PEX pipe and another that doesnt know the
difference
between PEX-AL-PEX fittings and even one of the 6 different types
of
PEX fittings, if you can find him not busy in the shingles sales
isle.

..and you want them to know and understand the electrical safety
code
too? Most of them are having a hard time knowing that a 1/2"
knockout
isn't a physical threat.



Is complaining all you can do? HD's firsrt stores were near me,
and
they had good people for well over a decade. The local one has
several
part time retired electricians working there, as well as plumbers.
The
give basic advice, but on complex jobs they tell the customers to
either
hire the job, or talk to the county inspectors before starting the
job.
They know what they stock, and how to use it. I guess HD Canada
isn't
able to find people like this for their stores. Other hardware and
building supply chains are long gone that tried to compete against
them,
and none of them are missed.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214
to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Solar Flaire wrote:

Since you asked.

Most of the management are USanians and do not understand a higher
ethic required. They order what the mothership tells them to order. If
they get it wrong too often they become drive through attendents at
McDonald's


Did your mother have any kids who lived? You can't be as ignorant as
you appear, and still be alive. Corporate purchasing is carefully
tracked, and the store stock is based on what sells. If the equipment
was not up to code, it wouldn't pass inspection. They 'hide' it to keep
brain dead DIYers like you from killing themselves.


Nobody can blame them for where they are born.

I am glad you trust the slaes people at HD. I can read.
..........................^^^^^^.................. ........

You can't write worth as damn.


BTW, what kind of fairy name is "Flaire"?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Most power companies require "visible disconnect" switches so the
lineman can visually check that the home with the generator is
disconnected before he start working on restoring the power to the
line. Seems like at least one lineman has died in every major storm
related outage in my region while repairing lines. Don't think all of
these were generator related. Linemen are working 16 hour days, 7 day
weeks during major events, and like most of us, make mistakes. Your
switches may cost a life. A lesser problem is the generator may cause
the power to trip a breaker or blow a fuse somewhere else on the line
if your disconnect switches aren't working properly.

Without this disconnect, your power may not be restored during an
outage. I've been told they will not work on the line until the
switches are upgraded to meet the current standard. Since you have a
generator, you might be willing to live with this. But your neighbors
may decide to go to court if they suffer damages due to your safety
compliance.

Interlocks are typically used in a plant for maintenance purposes.
You need to know if they work, and when they need replaced.

On May 7, 6:05 pm, Ignoramus23720 ignoramus23...@NOSPAM.
23720.invalid wrote:
I have this generator:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

I bought these interlocks on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=300106024488

They are actually quite large, the photo does not do them justice.

My plan is to place interlocks so that either the generator's
disconnect is closed, or the main panel breaker is closed, but never
both.

That's what they were designed for, if it is unclear to anyone, I can
explain it in more detail, or see:http://www.kirkkey.com/index.html

I would lock up another key (they are keyed alike) in my safe so
that its use cannot defeat this system.

I believe that this arrangement fully satisfies the rule that a
mechanical interlock device should prevent both sources of power from
coming in contact.

Any comments?

i

According to Solar Flaire :
You have a definite comprehension problem. How many time have I
explained you have twisted the meaning to something that wasn't
posted?

Read again and think. "where would I use this device in a large
automotive plant?"

Who is talking about large automotive plants?

You wouldn't use one of these in an automotive plant:

http://www.acroelectric.com/standby-...ansfer-switch/

Note the CSA approval.

and "when did manual become automatic?"

How is a plug and receptacle _not_ a manual disconnecting device?

CEC permits both manual and automatic transfer switches.

Or http://www.powertogo.ca/transfer_switches.htm
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Solar Flaire :
What do you expect for minimum wage?

Weren't you saying something about reading comprehension?

HD opened here with all these "trade experts" in every isle. They
thought they would clean up the market. many long term building
supliers closed down for fear they would never compete.
Five or six years later, HD has no experts left,

Nonsense. I'm not sure whether you're living in a alternative
universe Canada, or are unable to tell the difference between
HD and Canadian Tire. Or, with the rant about usians, perhaps
you're confused between Walmart and HD. Or, perhaps you work
for Rona.

I have had no problem _ever_ getting expert advice at HD (in contrast
to most other places) at any of the Canadian HDs I've gone into. The
one nearest us proudly displays a listing of their "experts"'s names
in the electrical/plumbing isles, how many years (usually decades)
they've been in the trade, and which of them are on duty at the time.

not even the
industrial accident ones. You can't get anybody to serve you, let
alone know anything about a trade tip. The plumbing isle has a guy
that has heard of PEX pipe and another that doesnt know the difference
between PEX-AL-PEX fittings and even one of the 6 different types of
PEX fittings, if you can find him not busy in the shingles sales isle.

You're following the wrong one.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Solar Flaire :
Since you asked.

Most of the management are USanians and do not understand a higher
ethic required. They order what the mothership tells them to order. If
they get it wrong too often they become drive through attendents at
McDonald's

Nobody can blame them for where they are born.

You did notice that the president of HD Canada is Canadian and HD
Canada is HQ'd in the maritimes, didn't you? Did you notice
all the awards she's gotten from outside of HD?

Guess not.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

cmiles3 wrote:

Without this disconnect, your power may not be restored during an
outage. I've been told they will not work on the line until the
switches are upgraded to meet the current standard. Since you have a
generator, you might be willing to live with this. But your neighbors
may decide to go to court if they suffer damages due to your safety
compliance.


Where in the world do you live? Either they pull the meter, or
disconnect the drop from the secondaries. I've seen it done repeatedly
around here after each hurricane.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2007 20:08:58 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

cmiles3 wrote:

Without this disconnect, your power may not be restored during an
outage. I've been told they will not work on the line until the
switches are upgraded to meet the current standard. Since you have a
generator, you might be willing to live with this. But your neighbors
may decide to go to court if they suffer damages due to your safety
compliance.


Where in the world do you live? Either they pull the meter, or
disconnect the drop from the secondaries. I've seen it done repeatedly
around here after each hurricane.

I have seen so much bull**** on this thread. POCO guys will just drop
out the primary fuse on your transformer, do what they have to do and
yank it back in with their hot stick. If something is amiss they will
watch the fireworks from a safe distance.


If you say so, but the out of state crews weren't taking any
chances. I had nothing else to do for three weeks while I waited for
them to replace the fuse at the entrance to my subdivision, so I watched
a lot of the repair work as they replaced thousands of sheared off poles
and downed primary and secondary lines.

Popping a fuse back in doesn't help, till the system is repaired, and
if a house was badly damaged, they refused to reconnect power till the
property was inspected. A lot of red tags on properties and even some
poles because a side street had too many problems. Several house had
the drops disconnected and coiled up by the meter poles on their
property, until the county said it was ok to reconnect them.

Marion county took several bad hits over the last few years, and
Progress Energy was to busy co-ordinating repairs to do much of the
actual work. There were about five out of state crews working under
each local crew, and the goal was to restore power to as many buildings
as possible, as soon as possible. Some damaged poles in residential
areas were replaced a year after they were damaged, because they only
affected a few homes.

My subdivision was built in 1964, and the distribution system is a
joke. Fuses blow almost every week, the old wire breaks with a little
wind, and it was designed for 60 amp service, not the current 200 amp
service that is required for any new installs or upgrades. During the
summer when all the central air conditioners are running, and people
start cooking supper, we lose power for three streets at about 5 PM
every Friday, all summer long. it takes them about four hours to get
here with two or three line buckets and inspect for branches touching
the wires and downed drops before they replace the fuse.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2007 10:26:11 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Marion county took several bad hits over the last few years, and
Progress Energy was to busy co-ordinating repairs to do much of the
actual work.

FPL seems to do a lot better job down here in SW Fla. Maybe it is
because we are more exposed to the storms. We had our power back in a
day after Wilma and Charlie. (they came right over us). We never lost
power in the other dozen or so near misses over the quarter century I
have been here. This is also a 60s era neighborhood. My house was
built in 1963. Surprisingly it has roof clips that are equal to or
exceed the current code set in a poured tie beam.


We lost over 1000 power poles, and they can only replace so many a
day. The Florida green Belt runs right behind my house. When I moved
in eight years ago, you couldn't find a gap in the trees. Now 75% or
more of the trees are gone Old oaks and pines were snapping like match
sticks, but they deflected a lot of wind away from my house. My house
is the very last one in the back corner of the subdivision, so anything
that causes a problem takes out my electricity.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

no spam wrote:

You still use DDT?


No. I've never used it, but I could probably find some for you if
you're thirsty, Mayor.

If you do can you send some my way? I have fire ants, sand gnats, deer
flies, mosquitoes and several other biting bugs I'd like to get rid of.


No luck, it was turned in to the county during a toxic household
waste amnesty day recently.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
cmiles3 wrote:

Without this disconnect, your power may not be restored during an
outage. I've been told they will not work on the line until the
switches are upgraded to meet the current standard. Since you have a
generator, you might be willing to live with this. But your neighbors
may decide to go to court if they suffer damages due to your safety
compliance.


Where in the world do you live? Either they pull the meter, or
disconnect the drop from the secondaries. I've seen it done repeatedly
around here after each hurricane.



That's what I saw in Mississippi many years ago. If the drop to a house was
damaged, they disconnected it. Then they would power up the block and most
houses would get power back. The few that had damaged service entrances or
other problems wouldn't get power back for quite some time (on the order of
a couple of weeks, when they finished with the main lines and feeders, they
would come back and do individual service).

daestrom

Go for it. Then you can stop spewing the bull****.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 May 2007 18:46:26 -0500, "Solar Flaire"
wrote:

So you just threw the term in to confuse the issue then?


No it is the deciding factor when you are deciding about switching
the
neutral in transfer equipment. I am a US inspector but I do have
collegues in Canada and I bet if I ask them they will confirm that
CEC
rules on SDS and neutral switching are basically the same.

To many shots to the head? Or not enough?

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Solar Flaire wrote:

Since you asked.

Most of the management are USanians and do not understand a higher
ethic required. They order what the mothership tells them to order.
If
they get it wrong too often they become drive through attendents at
McDonald's


Did your mother have any kids who lived? You can't be as ignorant
as
you appear, and still be alive. Corporate purchasing is carefully
tracked, and the store stock is based on what sells. If the
equipment
was not up to code, it wouldn't pass inspection. They 'hide' it to
keep
brain dead DIYers like you from killing themselves.


Nobody can blame them for where they are born.

I am glad you trust the slaes people at HD. I can read.
.........................^^^^^^................... .......

You can't write worth as damn.


BTW, what kind of fairy name is "Flaire"?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214
to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida