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#1
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? |
#2
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
wrote in message ups.com... After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. use the correct al-cu connectors to make some copper pigtails, and use a regular gfci outlet So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? |
#3
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
use the correct al-cu connectors to make some copper pigtails, and use a
regular gfci outlet I would look around the internet to see if you can find a GFCI compatible with aluminum wiring first. Fitting a GFCI in an existing box is tough enough, but if you had to add pigtails, it's going to be just about impossible unless it's already in an oversized box. |
#4
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 12, 8:23 am, "
wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster even with aluminum wire. |
#5
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
Kristen Caldwell wrote:
How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster even with aluminum wire. The issue is not the breaker itself, but the connection with the aluminum wire. When using aluminum wire you need to ensure that all connected devices are rated for use with aluminum. This can be expensive. For instance, an aluminum-rated toggle switch costs about four times as much as one rated for copper only. Chris |
#6
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 12, 3:37 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
Kristen Caldwell wrote: How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster even with aluminum wire. The issue is not the breaker itself, but the connection with the aluminum wire. When using aluminum wire you need to ensure that all connected devices are rated for use with aluminum. This can be expensive. For instance, an aluminum-rated toggle switch costs about four times as much as one rated for copper only. Chris Yeah, and that's the problem - I haven't yet found a Cu/Al GFCI outlet for *any* price. Which is why I was thinking it might be better to just do it at the breaker box. More inconvenient if you trip it, and yeah, it might be hard to physically stuff one in the box too. Or I could call an electrician and have them crimp-pigtail just the offending receptacles and use a regular GFCI outlet on those. |
#7
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
wrote in message ups.com... After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? Even with the GFCI outlets, I'd install AFCIs (arc fault current interrupters) at the circuit breaker panel. They're required by the NEC now for bedroom outlets in new homes and arc faults are one of the failure modes for aluminum wiring as the connections go bad. See: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf You can also get combined GFCI and AFCI circuit breakers. Then you don't need to worry about the AL connections at the outlet. TKM |
#8
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
TKM wrote:
wrote in message ups.com... After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? Even with the GFCI outlets, I'd install AFCIs (arc fault current interrupters) at the circuit breaker panel. They're required by the NEC now for bedroom outlets in new homes and arc faults are one of the failure modes for aluminum wiring as the connections go bad. See: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf You can also get combined GFCI and AFCI circuit breakers. Then you don't need to worry about the AL connections at the outlet. TKM For which panels are those available? I've been told that the Siemens breakers are both GFCI/AFCI and believe that to be the case (based on personal experience - I posted before about a "ground fault" through a USB cable causing my AFCI breaker to trip) but a) I can't find documentation of same and b) I was also told that the GF protection was at an "equipment protection" level not a "personnel protection" level (I believe 30 mA vs 5 mA, but I'm going off memory here) therefore it wouldn't meet the intent of the Code. I do agree, however, that AFCI protection does not seem to be an entirely bad idea with Al wiring. FWIW I've had the AFCI in for several months now and have experienced no nuisance trips, only the trips caused by the USB issue mentioned above. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#9
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
In article . com,
" wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? There seems to be a heck of a lot of detailed information on dealing with aluminum wiring he http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm -- --Tim Smith |
#10
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
"TKM" writes:
Even with the GFCI outlets, I'd install AFCIs (arc fault current interrupters) at the circuit breaker panel. They're required by the NEC now for bedroom outlets in new homes and arc faults are one of the failure modes for aluminum wiring as the connections go bad. See: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf You might want to wait a while yet. As I understand it, current AFCI's only protect against parallel arcs, where there is an arc between hot and neutral (or ground), without the load being in series, and the current spikes are high. The arcs you get from deteriorating aluminum connections are series arcs, in series with the load. Even with a high load like a toaster or a microwave oven, the arc current spikes can't exceed the full load current of that appliance. So these arcs are harder to detect, and current AFCIs are not designed to do so. And so you won't get any protection from arcing connections. Future AFCIs are supposed to detect series arcs too. I'd wait until they appear if you don't have to install AFCIs now. Dave |
#11
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
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#12
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 12, 9:25 pm, Tim Smith wrote:
In article . com, " wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? There seems to be a heck of a lot of detailed information on dealing with aluminum wiring he http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm -- --Tim Smith Yup, but still nothing about the GFCI issue. I did find a link to the new "AlumiConn" connectors which look like my best option for pigtailing. Of course, now I have to make sure they didn't use any #14 wire anywhere.... |
#13
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
"Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 12, 8:23 am, " wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster even with aluminum wire. You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because it creates a serious fire hazzard. If you don't know that you shouldn't be answering questions from people who obviously already know more than you. |
#14
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches. |
#15
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 13, 10:02 am, "Mark" wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire. Yeah, it would figure that copper prices are through the roof again at the moment. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches. A GFCI *breaker* will say so? I already gave up on a GFCI *outlet* in lieu of an appropriate pigtail solution. I don't see any distinguishing Al-compatible markings on the existing breakers... |
#16
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 13, 11:52 am, "
wrote: On Apr 13, 10:02 am, "Mark" wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire. Yeah, it would figure that copper prices are through the roof again at the moment. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches. A GFCI *breaker* will say so? I already gave up on a GFCI *outlet* in lieu of an appropriate pigtail solution. I don't see any distinguishing Al-compatible markings on the existing breakers... What's the issue with pigtailing within a breaker box? Seems *far* easier than pigtailing within an outlet box - no space issues to mess you up. nate |
#17
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
According to TKM :
You can also get combined GFCI and AFCI circuit breakers. Then you don't need to worry about the AL connections at the outlet. I believe that the current specification for AFCI breakers requires them to have a GFCI function, but STR the GFCI function spec is 30ma instead of 5ma in regular non-AFCI GFCIs. -- Chris Lewis, Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#18
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
wrote in message ups.com... On Apr 13, 10:02 am, "Mark" wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire. Yeah, it would figure that copper prices are through the roof again at the moment. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches. A GFCI *breaker* will say so? I already gave up on a GFCI *outlet* in lieu of an appropriate pigtail solution. I don't see any distinguishing Al-compatible markings on the existing breakers... Breakers are marked/spec'd Al/Cu if applicable. AFAIK GFCI breakers are no exception. How does the wiring look at the existing breaker connections? Any sign of overheating? I got to tell you I would not have Al wiring in a house of mine even a rental. If I were buying I would demand a big offset on the price to compensate for it too. Just too many known problems. If I were somehow stuck with it I would bite the bullet and replace ASAP. Peace of mind alone is worth it. Do it a circuit at a time whenever you have to work on one for some other reason if that's the only way and drop any 20A breakers to 15A on renmaining Al circuits for added safety. I think the NEC now requires 15A on Al circuits anyway. Example of breaker rating/markings: http://ecatalog.squared.com/fulldetail.cfm?partnumber=HOM115 |
#19
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,alt.radio.satellite,sci.engr.electrical.compliance
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 13, 8:00 am, "Mark" wrote:
"Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 12, 8:23 am, " wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster even with aluminum wire. You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because it creates a serious fire hazzard. If you don't know that you shouldn't be answering questions from people who obviously already know more than you. I got a jar full of pennies and nickels and dimes?. How come it hasn't caught on fire yet? |
#20
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,alt.radio.satellite,sci.engr.electrical.compliance
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On 14 Apr, 07:30, "Kristen Caldwell"
wrote: On Apr 13, 8:00 am, "Mark" wrote: "Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote in message roups.com... On Apr 12, 8:23 am, " wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. GFCIs protect against L-E shocks and shorts, which have nothing to do with the risk that ali wiring posts. Al oxidises at joints, heats up & catches fire. A gfci doesnt make the remotest difference to that. An AFCI however would. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? I'm not that familiar with US practices, but I dont expect many modern electrical parts will have al compatible connections. GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster even with aluminum wire. You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because it creates a serious fire hazzard. yup. If you need to put an AFCI in each circuit, the AFCI can have a copper tail leading to a purpose designed cu to al connector. Follow the proper procedure in the instructions, al behaves differently to cu. AFCIs arent perfect, but they do reduce risk quite a lot. NT |
#21
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On 13 Apr 2007 23:30:11 -0700, "Kristen Caldwell"
wrote: On Apr 13, 8:00 am, "Mark" wrote: "Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 12, 8:23 am, " wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster even with aluminum wire. You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because it creates a serious fire hazzard. If you don't know that you shouldn't be answering questions from people who obviously already know more than you. I got a jar full of pennies and nickels and dimes?. How come it hasn't caught on fire yet? How much current passes through your pennies and dimes? Are they protected by an AFCI? |
#22
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
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#23
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,alt.radio.satellite,sci.engr.electrical.compliance
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
"Kristen Caldwell" wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 13, 8:00 am, "Mark" wrote: "Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 12, 8:23 am, " wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster even with aluminum wire. You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because it creates a serious fire hazzard. If you don't know that you shouldn't be answering questions from people who obviously already know more than you. I got a jar full of pennies and nickels and dimes?. How come it hasn't caught on fire yet? All wiring devices like receptacles, switches, GFCI breakers etc. are marked for Alum. and or copper usage. Some are copper only some are will work with both. If in doubt you could make a short jumper. If your circuit conductor is # 12 or #10 alum. use a copper #12 conductor spliced to the circuit conductor using a copper/alum. butt splice A compound such as peremetx could also be used to coat the conductors. Permitex is a paste like compound that contains both copper and aluminum metals. |
#24
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 13, 11:24 pm, "Mark" wrote:
wrote in message ups.com... On Apr 13, 10:02 am, "Mark" wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire. Yeah, it would figure that copper prices are through the roof again at the moment. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches. A GFCI *breaker* will say so? I already gave up on a GFCI *outlet* in lieu of an appropriate pigtail solution. I don't see any distinguishing Al-compatible markings on the existing breakers... Breakers are marked/spec'd Al/Cu if applicable. AFAIK GFCI breakers are no exception. Hmm, I can't seem to find anything marked Al/Cu at the local home improvement amusement parks. I do find several which specifically say to use only with copper wiring. I'll pay a visit to a contractor supply this week, they will probably have a better selection. If I were somehow stuck with it I would bite the bullet and replace ASAP. Peace of mind alone is worth it. Do it a circuit at a time whenever you have to work on one for some other reason if that's the only way and drop any 20A breakers to 15A on renmaining Al circuits for added safety. I think the NEC now requires 15A on Al circuits anyway. Yeah, I'm going through room by room and checking every outlet, switch and fixture. Any 20A breakers on a 12awg Al circuit will be replaced with 15A breakers. I'm also expecting to encounter 14awg to the bathrooms and will be dropping new wire there. I already found one example of aluminum nutted to *stranded* copper on a lighting fixture... that got me moving on the whole thing. I'm hoping it won't be requiring enough work to necessitate a permit, but it could go either way at this point. |
#25
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,alt.radio.satellite,sci.engr.electrical.compliance
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 14, 1:55 am, wrote:
GFCIs protect against L-E shocks and shorts, which have nothing to do with the risk that ali wiring posts. Al oxidises at joints, heats up & catches fire. A gfci doesnt make the remotest difference to that. An AFCI however would. I'm under the impression that current AFCIs don't protect against the type of arc faults Al joints are prone to. I'm not installing GFCIs to mitigate the Al risk, it's to mitigate the general risk of operating electrical devices near water. I'm not that familiar with US practices, but I dont expect many modern electrical parts will have al compatible connections. Switches and outlets do, actually, but GFCI outlets seem to be an exception. AFCIs arent perfect, but they do reduce risk quite a lot. Do you have any references that show currently marketed AFCIs to reduce the risk of bad Al connections? |
#26
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 14, 12:19 pm, Larry Caldwell
wrote: How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? The simplest thing is just to install a GFCI breaker rated Al/Cu. Well yeah. I guess what I'm learning here is that such things do exist and are labeled as such, and that I've been looking in the wrong places :-) Even large gauge wire like service entrance should be re- torqued every few years. Use a torque wrench and torque the lugs to spec. Yeah, once I've taken care of the grunt work inside, I'll get an electrician to take care of the rest (furnace, AC, service drop, etc). Thanks! |
#27
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 14, 6:06 pm, "Coyote" wrote:
If in doubt you could make a short jumper. If your circuit conductor is # 12 or #10 alum. use a copper #12 conductor spliced to the circuit conductor using a copper/alum. butt splice A compound such as peremetx could also be used to coat the conductors. Permitex is a paste like compound that contains both copper and aluminum metals. I read that the butt splice method is not a good idea and that is why the COPALUM pigtail splice exists. Same deal with the Ideal purple wire nuts vs Scotchlok wire nuts that are spring loaded. In both cases the latter exerts more force on the aluminum wire keeping it from loosening as it inevitably expands and contracts. |
#28
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
Dave Martindale wrote:
"TKM" writes: Even with the GFCI outlets, I'd install AFCIs (arc fault current interrupters) at the circuit breaker panel. They're required by the NEC now for bedroom outlets in new homes and arc faults are one of the failure modes for aluminum wiring as the connections go bad. See: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf You might want to wait a while yet. As I understand it, current AFCI's only protect against parallel arcs, where there is an arc between hot and neutral (or ground), without the load being in series, and the current spikes are high. The arcs you get from deteriorating aluminum connections are series arcs, in series with the load. Even with a high load like a toaster or a microwave oven, the arc current spikes can't exceed the full load current of that appliance. So these arcs are harder to detect, and current AFCIs are not designed to do so. And so you won't get any protection from arcing connections. Future AFCIs are supposed to detect series arcs too. I'd wait until they appear if you don't have to install AFCIs now. "Combination" AFCIs detect arcs at a 5A level, which will find series arcs. They are required by the NEC starting Jan 1 2008. But they are substantially non-existent now - 8 months before they are required. And with remarkable timing, the 2008 NEC requires the now non-existent AFCIs on substantially all new residential 15 & 20A 120V circuits. -- bud-- |
#30
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On 17 Apr, 15:32, "
wrote: On Apr 14, 1:55 am, wrote: AFCIs arent perfect, but they do reduce risk quite a lot. Do you have any references that show currently marketed AFCIs to reduce the risk of bad Al connections? no, I didnt realise they were parallel only. Where I am in the world we dont have AFCIs. NT |
#31
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 14, 6:06 pm, "Coyote" wrote: If in doubt you could make a short jumper. If your circuit conductor is # 12 or #10 alum. use a copper #12 conductor spliced to the circuit conductor using a copper/alum. butt splice A compound such as peremetx could also be used to coat the conductors. Permitex is a paste like compound that contains both copper and aluminum metals. I read that the butt splice method is not a good idea and that is why the COPALUM pigtail splice exists. Same deal with the Ideal purple wire nuts vs Scotchlok wire nuts that are spring loaded. In both cases the latter exerts more force on the aluminum wire keeping it from loosening as it inevitably expands and contracts. You are correct...CP/AL spring loaded nuts could be used. I used Scotchlock spring loaded nuts for years and never had a problem |
#32
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 17, 10:30 am, wrote:
There is a new device out there called Alumiconn by King Innovation that is as good as Copalum and you don't need any special tools or training. It is a small terminal block with set screws in an insulating jacket. http://www.kingsafety.com/products/alumiconn.html Yeah, that looks like a good product and it's even UL listed. But it's not listed by CPSC as an approved repair method (yet). This might be the best way to go in the end, the product makes sense and is not that expensive. |
#33
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 17, 11:26 am, Bud-- wrote:
wrote: On Apr 13, 11:24 pm, "Mark" wrote: wrote in message roups.com... On Apr 13, 10:02 am, "Mark" wrote: After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist. So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an alternative to fishing new wire. Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire. Yeah, it would figure that copper prices are through the roof again at the moment. How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired aluminum? It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches. A GFCI *breaker* will say so? I already gave up on a GFCI *outlet* in lieu of an appropriate pigtail solution. I don't see any distinguishing Al-compatible markings on the existing breakers... Breakers are marked/spec'd Al/Cu if applicable. AFAIK GFCI breakers are no exception. Hmm, I can't seem to find anything marked Al/Cu at the local home improvement amusement parks. I do find several which specifically say to use only with copper wiring. I'll pay a visit to a contractor supply this week, they will probably have a better selection. I would rather pigtail to copper and connect the copper to the breaker, as in N8N's post. The breaker connection is probably heated by the breaker trip mechanism, and heat cycling with aluminum is not a good idea. Aside from that, I don't see any advantages in direct connection. In any case, I would use the connection procedures inhttp://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm Yeah, I've been using that as a rough guide, they've omitted mention of the "normal" CO/ALR butt splices sold at Home Depot and such though. So I'm not sure where they fit into the whole scheme, but I suspect they're about as good an idea as the purple wire nuts also sold there (which is to say, not at all). UL fixed aluminum expansion problems with new alloy aluminum and CO/ALR devices. But most of the installed aluminum branch circuit wire is probably "old technology". (Aluminum oxidation is a problem with new and old wire.) Yeah, in my case it's silver-colored wire through and through, so it's not the copper clad type aluminum that is supposed to be safer. Thus requiring scraping, anti-oxidant, and a thermally-safe fit at every connection. |
#34
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 17, 1:41 pm, "Coyote" wrote:
You are correct...CP/AL spring loaded nuts could be used. I used Scotchlock spring loaded nuts for years and never had a problem Do you have a suggestion where I could find such a nut? All the Scotchlok nuts I have found on their site say Copper connections only... though it certainly seems that CO/ALR spring nuts do exist somewhere. |
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Buying things at Home Depot? (was GFCI breakers for Al wiring)
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Buying things at Home Depot? (was GFCI breakers for Al wiring)
Tim Smith wrote:
On 2007-04-17, wrote: though. So I'm not sure where they fit into the whole scheme, but I suspect they're about as good an idea as the purple wire nuts also sold there (which is to say, not at all). In general, what is reasonable to buy at Home Depot, and what should be bought from an electrical supply company? For example, if I want to replace an outlet, or a switch, is one of the cheap ones from the bins at Home Depot OK? If not, how about the more expensive boxed ones there? Anything with a brand name (Leviton etc.) and marked "spec grade" is as good as the "good stuff" from the supply house. Might be more expensive, but that's another issue. How about wire, cable, conduit, wire nuts, and things like that? see above... nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
Bud-- writes:
"Combination" AFCIs detect arcs at a 5A level, which will find series arcs. They are required by the NEC starting Jan 1 2008. But they are substantially non-existent now - 8 months before they are required. And with remarkable timing, the 2008 NEC requires the now non-existent AFCIs on substantially all new residential 15 & 20A 120V circuits. Not just bedrooms, but *all* branch circuits? The only AFCI's I've seen so far are twice the width of a standard 15 A breaker, so that's going to cause a lot of problems with panel space on upgrades. My own house panel could fit one or two AFCI's if they replaced existing 15 A breakers, and then it would be full. Dave |
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
wrote:
On Apr 17, 11:26 am, Bud-- wrote: Hmm, I can't seem to find anything marked Al/Cu at the local home improvement amusement parks. I do find several which specifically say to use only with copper wiring. I'll pay a visit to a contractor supply this week, they will probably have a better selection. I would rather pigtail to copper and connect the copper to the breaker, as in N8N's post. The breaker connection is probably heated by the breaker trip mechanism, and heat cycling with aluminum is not a good idea. Aside from that, I don't see any advantages in direct connection. In any case, I would use the connection procedures in http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm Yeah, I've been using that as a rough guide, they've omitted mention of the "normal" CO/ALR butt splices sold at Home Depot and such though. So I'm not sure where they fit into the whole scheme, but I suspect they're about as good an idea as the purple wire nuts also sold there (which is to say, not at all). I don't know what your "normal butt splices" are. Butt splices join wires end-to-end with a sleeve which is usually crimped to the wire. The only listed splice devices for aluminum branch circuits I know of are Alumiconn, as in gfretwell's post, and purple Ideal 65 wirenuts. Alumiconn is new and looks real interesitng. In the research done for the CPSC, the Ideal 65 didn't work better than other wirenuts with antioxide paste, and had flamability issues. I think that is in alreduce.htm. Scotch doesn't make wirenuts listed for aluminum. But Scotch is recommended by alreduce.htm based on the extensive testing done for the CPSC. -- bud-- |
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
On Apr 18, 10:30 am, Bud-- wrote:
I don't know what your "normal butt splices" are. Butt splices join wires end-to-end with a sleeve which is usually crimped to the wire. "Normal" butt splices as opposed to the COPALUM splices that require a special tool. The only listed splice devices for aluminum branch circuits I know of are Alumiconn, as in gfretwell's post, and purple Ideal 65 wirenuts. Alumiconn is new and looks real interesitng. In the research done for the CPSC, the Ideal 65 didn't work better than other wirenuts with antioxide paste, and had flamability issues. I think that is in alreduce.htm. Scotch doesn't make wirenuts listed for aluminum. But Scotch is recommended by alreduce.htm based on the extensive testing done for the CPSC. OK, so currently my Al mitigation plan is: - Use Scotchlok spring nuts according to the instructions in alreduce.htm (scrape, no-alox, pre-twist) wherever solid aluminum mates to solid copper - Use Alumiconn e.g. on fixtures with stranded copper or where space is an issue - Replace any 14AWG aluminum wire - Replace any 20A breakers on 12AWG aluminum circuits with 15A breakers - On switches and outlets, replace with new CO/ALR devices - Pigtail to copper for GFCI outlets in baths, kitchen, laundry, or similarly install GFCI breakers if I can find them for my panel - Have an electrician check the connections at high voltage appliances and the service drop - Keep my eye out for the feasibility of series fault AFCIs as they become available |
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GFCI breakers for Al wiring
" writes:
- Replace any 14AWG aluminum wire - Replace any 20A breakers on 12AWG aluminum circuits with 15A breakers Do you actually have any 14 AWG aluminum? Was it ever used for branch circuits? Similarly, was 12 AWG ever used for 20 A circuits? I thought aluminum was always required to be 12 AWG for 15 A. Dave |
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