After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

wrote in message
ups.com...
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

use the correct al-cu connectors to make some copper pigtails, and use a
regular gfci outlet

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

use the correct al-cu connectors to make some copper pigtails, and use a
regular gfci outlet

I would look around the internet to see if you can find a GFCI
compatible with aluminum wiring first. Fitting a GFCI in an existing
box is tough enough, but if you had to add pigtails, it's going to be
just about impossible unless it's already in an oversized box.

On Apr 12, 8:23 am, "
wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster
even with aluminum wire.

Kristen Caldwell wrote:

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster
even with aluminum wire.

The issue is not the breaker itself, but the connection with the
aluminum wire. When using aluminum wire you need to ensure that all
connected devices are rated for use with aluminum.

This can be expensive. For instance, an aluminum-rated toggle switch
costs about four times as much as one rated for copper only.

Chris

On Apr 12, 3:37 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
Kristen Caldwell wrote:
How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?
GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster
even with aluminum wire.

The issue is not the breaker itself, but the connection with the
aluminum wire. When using aluminum wire you need to ensure that all
connected devices are rated for use with aluminum.

This can be expensive. For instance, an aluminum-rated toggle switch
costs about four times as much as one rated for copper only.

Chris

Yeah, and that's the problem - I haven't yet found a Cu/Al GFCI outlet
for *any* price. Which is why I was thinking it might be better to
just do it at the breaker box. More inconvenient if you trip it, and
yeah, it might be hard to physically stuff one in the box too.

Or I could call an electrician and have them crimp-pigtail just the
offending receptacles and use a regular GFCI outlet on those.

"Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote
wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 12, 8:23 am, "
wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster
even with aluminum wire.


You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because
it creates a serious fire hazzard. If you don't know that you shouldn't be
answering questions from people who obviously already know more than you.

On Apr 13, 8:00 am, "Mark" wrote:
"Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote in message

oups.com...

On Apr 12, 8:23 am, "
wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster
even with aluminum wire.

You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because
it creates a serious fire hazzard. If you don't know that you shouldn't be
answering questions from people who obviously already know more than you.

I got a jar full of pennies and nickels and dimes?.

How come it hasn't caught on fire yet?

On 14 Apr, 07:30, "Kristen Caldwell"
wrote:
On Apr 13, 8:00 am, "Mark" wrote:
"Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote in message
roups.com...
On Apr 12, 8:23 am, "
wrote:

After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

GFCIs protect against L-E shocks and shorts, which have nothing to do
with the risk that ali wiring posts. Al oxidises at joints, heats up &
catches fire. A gfci doesnt make the remotest difference to that. An
AFCI however would.


How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

I'm not that familiar with US practices, but I dont expect many modern
electrical parts will have al compatible connections.


GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster
even with aluminum wire.

You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because
it creates a serious fire hazzard.

yup. If you need to put an AFCI in each circuit, the AFCI can have a
copper tail leading to a purpose designed cu to al connector. Follow
the proper procedure in the instructions, al behaves differently to
cu.

AFCIs arent perfect, but they do reduce risk quite a lot.


NT

On Apr 14, 1:55 am, wrote:

GFCIs protect against L-E shocks and shorts, which have nothing to do
with the risk that ali wiring posts. Al oxidises at joints, heats up &
catches fire. A gfci doesnt make the remotest difference to that. An
AFCI however would.

I'm under the impression that current AFCIs don't protect against the
type of arc faults Al joints are prone to.

I'm not installing GFCIs to mitigate the Al risk, it's to mitigate the
general risk of operating electrical devices near water.

I'm not that familiar with US practices, but I dont expect many modern
electrical parts will have al compatible connections.

Switches and outlets do, actually, but GFCI outlets seem to be an
exception.

AFCIs arent perfect, but they do reduce risk quite a lot.

Do you have any references that show currently marketed AFCIs to
reduce the risk of bad Al connections?

On 13 Apr 2007 23:30:11 -0700, "Kristen Caldwell"
wrote:

On Apr 13, 8:00 am, "Mark" wrote:
"Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring wrote in message

oups.com...

On Apr 12, 8:23 am, "
wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster
even with aluminum wire.

You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire because
it creates a serious fire hazzard. If you don't know that you shouldn't be
answering questions from people who obviously already know more than you.

I got a jar full of pennies and nickels and dimes?.

How come it hasn't caught on fire yet?

How much current passes through your pennies and dimes? Are they
protected by an AFCI?

"Kristen Caldwell" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 13, 8:00 am, "Mark" wrote:
"Kristen Caldwell" who doesn't know **** about wiring
wrote in message

oups.com...

On Apr 12, 8:23 am, "
wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is
wired
aluminum?

GFCI breakers will still protect you if you stick a fork in a toaster
even with aluminum wire.

You should never connect a copper only rated device to aluminum wire
because
it creates a serious fire hazzard. If you don't know that you shouldn't
be
answering questions from people who obviously already know more than you.

I got a jar full of pennies and nickels and dimes?.

How come it hasn't caught on fire yet?


All wiring devices like receptacles, switches, GFCI breakers etc. are marked
for Alum. and or copper usage.
Some are copper only some are will work with both.

If in doubt you could make a short jumper. If your circuit conductor is #
12 or #10 alum. use a copper
#12 conductor spliced to the circuit conductor using a copper/alum. butt
splice A compound such as peremetx
could also be used to coat the conductors. Permitex is a paste like
compound that contains both copper and
aluminum metals.

On Apr 14, 6:06 pm, "Coyote" wrote:

If in doubt you could make a short jumper. If your circuit conductor is #
12 or #10 alum. use a copper
#12 conductor spliced to the circuit conductor using a copper/alum. butt
splice A compound such as peremetx
could also be used to coat the conductors. Permitex is a paste like
compound that contains both copper and
aluminum metals.

I read that the butt splice method is not a good idea and that is why
the COPALUM pigtail splice exists. Same deal with the Ideal purple
wire nuts vs Scotchlok wire nuts that are spring loaded. In both
cases the latter exerts more force on the aluminum wire keeping it
from loosening as it inevitably expands and contracts.

wrote in message
ups.com...
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?


Even with the GFCI outlets, I'd install AFCIs (arc fault current
interrupters) at the circuit breaker panel. They're required by the NEC now
for bedroom outlets in new homes and arc faults are one of the failure modes
for aluminum wiring as the connections go bad.
See: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf

You can also get combined GFCI and AFCI circuit breakers. Then you don't
need to worry about the AL connections at the outlet.

TKM

TKM wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?



Even with the GFCI outlets, I'd install AFCIs (arc fault current
interrupters) at the circuit breaker panel. They're required by the NEC now
for bedroom outlets in new homes and arc faults are one of the failure modes
for aluminum wiring as the connections go bad.
See: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf

You can also get combined GFCI and AFCI circuit breakers. Then you don't
need to worry about the AL connections at the outlet.

TKM


For which panels are those available? I've been told that the Siemens
breakers are both GFCI/AFCI and believe that to be the case (based on
personal experience - I posted before about a "ground fault" through a
USB cable causing my AFCI breaker to trip) but a) I can't find
documentation of same and b) I was also told that the GF protection was
at an "equipment protection" level not a "personnel protection" level (I
believe 30 mA vs 5 mA, but I'm going off memory here) therefore it
wouldn't meet the intent of the Code.

I do agree, however, that AFCI protection does not seem to be an
entirely bad idea with Al wiring. FWIW I've had the AFCI in for several
months now and have experienced no nuisance trips, only the trips caused
by the USB issue mentioned above.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"TKM" writes:

Even with the GFCI outlets, I'd install AFCIs (arc fault current
interrupters) at the circuit breaker panel. They're required by the NEC now
for bedroom outlets in new homes and arc faults are one of the failure modes
for aluminum wiring as the connections go bad.
See: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf

You might want to wait a while yet. As I understand it, current AFCI's
only protect against parallel arcs, where there is an arc between hot
and neutral (or ground), without the load being in series, and the
current spikes are high.

The arcs you get from deteriorating aluminum connections are series
arcs, in series with the load. Even with a high load like a toaster or
a microwave oven, the arc current spikes can't exceed the full load
current of that appliance. So these arcs are harder to detect, and
current AFCIs are not designed to do so. And so you won't get any
protection from arcing connections.

Future AFCIs are supposed to detect series arcs too. I'd wait until
they appear if you don't have to install AFCIs now.

Dave

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:37:36 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

You might want to wait a while yet. As I understand it, current AFCI's
only protect against parallel arcs, where there is an arc between hot
and neutral (or ground), without the load being in series, and the
current spikes are high.

You're teh first one to explain this to me. Of course I never asked
anyone, but still, thank you.

The arcs you get from deteriorating aluminum connections are series
arcs, in series with the load. Even with a high load like a toaster or
a microwave oven, the arc current spikes can't exceed the full load
current of that appliance. So these arcs are harder to detect, and
current AFCIs are not designed to do so. And so you won't get any
protection from arcing connections.

Future AFCIs are supposed to detect series arcs too. I'd wait until
they appear if you don't have to install AFCIs now.

Dave

Dave Martindale wrote:

"TKM" writes:


Even with the GFCI outlets, I'd install AFCIs (arc fault current
interrupters) at the circuit breaker panel. They're required by the NEC now
for bedroom outlets in new homes and arc faults are one of the failure modes
for aluminum wiring as the connections go bad.
See: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf


You might want to wait a while yet. As I understand it, current AFCI's
only protect against parallel arcs, where there is an arc between hot
and neutral (or ground), without the load being in series, and the
current spikes are high.

The arcs you get from deteriorating aluminum connections are series
arcs, in series with the load. Even with a high load like a toaster or
a microwave oven, the arc current spikes can't exceed the full load
current of that appliance. So these arcs are harder to detect, and
current AFCIs are not designed to do so. And so you won't get any
protection from arcing connections.

Future AFCIs are supposed to detect series arcs too. I'd wait until
they appear if you don't have to install AFCIs now.


"Combination" AFCIs detect arcs at a 5A level, which will find series
arcs. They are required by the NEC starting Jan 1 2008. But they are
substantially non-existent now - 8 months before they are required. And
with remarkable timing, the 2008 NEC requires the now non-existent AFCIs
on substantially all new residential 15 & 20A 120V circuits.

--
bud--

Bud-- writes:

"Combination" AFCIs detect arcs at a 5A level, which will find series
arcs. They are required by the NEC starting Jan 1 2008. But they are
substantially non-existent now - 8 months before they are required. And
with remarkable timing, the 2008 NEC requires the now non-existent AFCIs
on substantially all new residential 15 & 20A 120V circuits.

Not just bedrooms, but *all* branch circuits? The only AFCI's I've seen
so far are twice the width of a standard 15 A breaker, so that's going
to cause a lot of problems with panel space on upgrades. My own house
panel could fit one or two AFCI's if they replaced existing 15 A
breakers, and then it would be full.

Dave

According to TKM :

You can also get combined GFCI and AFCI circuit breakers. Then you don't
need to worry about the AL connections at the outlet.

I believe that the current specification for AFCI breakers requires
them to have a GFCI function, but STR the GFCI function spec is 30ma
instead of 5ma in regular non-AFCI GFCIs.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In article . com,
" wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

There seems to be a heck of a lot of detailed information on dealing
with aluminum wiring he

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm



--
--Tim Smith

On Apr 12, 9:25 pm, Tim Smith wrote:
In article . com,

" wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

There seems to be a heck of a lot of detailed information on dealing
with aluminum wiring he

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm

--
--Tim Smith

Yup, but still nothing about the GFCI issue. I did find a link to the
new "AlumiConn" connectors which look like my best option for
pigtailing. Of course, now I have to make sure they didn't use any
#14 wire anywhere....

After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire.


How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches.

On Apr 13, 10:02 am, "Mark" wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire.

Yeah, it would figure that copper prices are through the roof again at
the moment.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches.

A GFCI *breaker* will say so? I already gave up on a GFCI *outlet* in
lieu of an appropriate pigtail solution. I don't see any
distinguishing Al-compatible markings on the existing breakers...

On Apr 13, 11:52 am, "
wrote:
On Apr 13, 10:02 am, "Mark" wrote:

After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new wire.

Yeah, it would figure that copper prices are through the roof again at
the moment.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches.

A GFCI *breaker* will say so? I already gave up on a GFCI *outlet* in
lieu of an appropriate pigtail solution. I don't see any
distinguishing Al-compatible markings on the existing breakers...

What's the issue with pigtailing within a breaker box? Seems *far*
easier than pigtailing within an outlet box - no space issues to mess
you up.

nate

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Apr 13, 10:02 am, "Mark" wrote:
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as
an
alternative to fishing new wire.

Amuninum wire is such a pain I would seriously consider fishing new
wire.

Yeah, it would figure that copper prices are through the roof again at
the moment.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is
wired
aluminum?

It will specifically say so like with other outlets and switches.

A GFCI *breaker* will say so? I already gave up on a GFCI *outlet* in
lieu of an appropriate pigtail solution. I don't see any
distinguishing Al-compatible markings on the existing breakers...


Breakers are marked/spec'd Al/Cu if applicable. AFAIK GFCI breakers are no
exception. How does the wiring look at the existing breaker connections? Any
sign of overheating? I got to tell you I would not have Al wiring in a house
of mine even a rental. If I were buying I would demand a big offset on the
price to compensate for it too. Just too many known problems. If I were
somehow stuck with it I would bite the bullet and replace ASAP. Peace of
mind alone is worth it. Do it a circuit at a time whenever you have to work
on one for some other reason if that's the only way and drop any 20A
breakers to 15A on renmaining Al circuits for added safety. I think the NEC
now requires 15A on Al circuits anyway.

Example of breaker rating/markings:

http://ecatalog.squared.com/fulldetail.cfm?partnumber=HOM115

In article . com,
) says...
After searching high and low I'm coming to the conclusion that an
Aluminum compatible GFCI outlet does not exist.

So I want to install GFCI breakers on the associated circuits as an
alternative to fishing new wire.

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

The simplest thing is just to install a GFCI breaker rated Al/Cu. That
will protect the whole circuit. Don't forget to coat the wire with
antioxidant before inserting it into the breaker. It would be a good
idea to redo every device on aluminum wire with modern rated devices.
There was nothing wrong with aluminum wire, it just has different
physical properties than copper, and the old contacts went bad.
Definitely remove all the old stab-in connectors, which were the worst
offenders. Even large gauge wire like service entrance should be re-
torqued every few years. Use a torque wrench and torque the lugs to
spec.

--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

On Apr 14, 12:19 pm, Larry Caldwell
wrote:

How do I know if a GFCI breaker can be used on a circuit that is wired
aluminum?

The simplest thing is just to install a GFCI breaker rated Al/Cu.

Well yeah. I guess what I'm learning here is that such things do
exist and are labeled as such, and that I've been looking in the wrong
places :-)

Even large gauge wire like service entrance should be re-
torqued every few years. Use a torque wrench and torque the lugs to
spec.

Yeah, once I've taken care of the grunt work inside, I'll get an
electrician to take care of the rest (furnace, AC, service drop,
etc). Thanks!