Hello:

I guess this post really dates me, and ceretainly does
make me feel old.

Have just heard about the relatively new type of circuit breakers termed
"arc fault circuit breakers".
Have reads up a bit on them, but still have several questions, please:

I live in a 25 year old house in Mass., that has the conventional type of
circuit breakers installed.

a. Should I replace all, or just the ones going to e.g., the bedroom
outlets with this new type ?

Why ?

b. What about the GFCI ground-fault breakers that I have installed for my
few outlets in the garrage, and on the porch ?

What's best for this type of location; the GFCI, or the new arc fault
type ? Why ?

c. Do they have any available that combine both features ?

If so, approx. cost ?

Is this a good approach?

d. Anyone familiar with the building codes in Mass. and how it relates to
this ?

Not too sure what else to ask, but would like to learn about what types to
use in a residence, where, pros and cons,
etc., if anyone has a few spare minutes would be most appreciative.

Thanks,
Bob

Robert11 wrote:
Hello:

I guess this post really dates me, and ceretainly does
make me feel old.

Have just heard about the relatively new type of circuit breakers
termed
"arc fault circuit breakers".
Have reads up a bit on them, but still have several questions,
please:

I live in a 25 year old house in Mass., that has the conventional
type of
circuit breakers installed.

a. Should I replace all, or just the ones going to e.g., the bedroom

outlets with this new type ?

"Should" you? I dunno. The bedrooms would be your first consideration
since that's what's specifically addressed in the new code. Then, you
might consider the circuits that you have reason to fear arcs on but
that, for whatever reason, you don't want to fix any other way. For
example, old knob-and-tube wiring, or wiring done by the previous hack
that owned the house, or maybe aluminum-wired circuits.

Why ?

I believe the thinking is that arcs in bedrooms cost a disproportionate
number of lives because they lead to smouldering fires from which the
smoke kills the sleepers before it sets off the smoke alarms. That
bedrooms are full of smoulderable fabrics may also be a factor.

b. What about the GFCI ground-fault breakers that I have installed
for my
few outlets in the garrage, and on the porch ?

Garage and outdoor outlets definitely need to stay on gfci's because
they offer protection for wet areas, where current leaking through you
to wet earth is a danger. GFCI's are also the outlet of choice on
ungrounded circuits, if running a ground is un-doable.

There are no combination devices that anyone's heard of yet so for each
circuit you need to choose afci *or* gfci breaker. You could put a gfci
outlet on a circuit protected by an afci-protected breaker. In fact I
have one; on an ungrounded circuit in a bedroom.

(AFCI protection needs to be at the breaker, not the outlet, because
the point of afci is to protect the connections of the wire to the
outlet and elsewhere in the circuit.)

What's best for this type of location; the GFCI, or the new
arc fault
type ? Why ?

Code and common sense require gfci protection for outlets in wet
locations. Perhaps a sink in the corner of a bedroom means that all
outlets in that room require both? That's a question for your
inspector. But there's no reason to think that a garage or outdoor
outlet would warrant afci's, as I understand it.

The inspector does not want to hear that you sleep in the garage.

c. Do they have any available that combine both features ?

As above, I don't think so, not yet.

If so, approx. cost ?

Round here, AFCI's and GFCI's push C$90 for my Siemens panel, compared
to $10 for normal breakers. You can take a look at homedepot.com as
easily as I can.

They might be unavailable for some older panels.

Is this a good approach?

Doing just the bedrooms in afci's would let you say that those rooms
were up to current code, which I'd say is a fine goal.

d. Anyone familiar with the building codes in Mass. and how it
relates to
this ?

Not me, sorry.

Nation-wide codes in Canada and the U.S. require afci's in "sleeping
areas" for new construction. Nothing in the nationwide codes require
upgrading older places. Some local codes try to do this, and some
insurance companies have opinions.

Not too sure what else to ask, but would like to learn about what
types to
use in a residence, where, pros and cons,
etc., if anyone has a few spare minutes would be most appreciative.

Basically you now know what I do: gfci's for wet areas, afci's for
bedrooms. The con's of both gfci and afci are the cost of nuisance
trips, so fridges and freezers, exit lighting, life-support equipment
etc are probably poor choices for either.

Having said that, my sump pump's on a gfci. The sight of a power cord
heading straight into a pool of water...

Chip C
Toronto

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello:

I guess this post really dates me, and ceretainly does
make me feel old.

Have just heard about the relatively new type of circuit breakers termed
"arc fault circuit breakers".
Have reads up a bit on them, but still have several questions, please:

I live in a 25 year old house in Mass., that has the conventional type of
circuit breakers installed.

a. Should I replace all, or just the ones going to e.g., the bedroom
outlets with this new type ?

Why ?

b. What about the GFCI ground-fault breakers that I have installed for my
few outlets in the garrage, and on the porch ?

What's best for this type of location; the GFCI, or the new arc
fault
type ? Why ?

c. Do they have any available that combine both features ?

If so, approx. cost ?

Is this a good approach?

d. Anyone familiar with the building codes in Mass. and how it relates to
this ?

Not too sure what else to ask, but would like to learn about what types to
use in a residence, where, pros and cons,
etc., if anyone has a few spare minutes would be most appreciative.

Thanks,
Bob

Do you have a grounding conductor? I would be more concerned about a
grounding conductor than the type of breakers installed. Electricity has
worked for a lot of years with out Arc faults and GFCI's. Do you pour hot
coffee in your lap and then sue?

Arc faults are for bedrooms under the new NEC.
GFCI's are for areas with water. Garage, bathrooms, outside, kitchens.
Brought into the code sometime around 1973. Kitchens 1997 or so
I am unaware of any combined protection breakers. Not much reason to combine
this kind of protection in my opinion.

GFCI's could be nice in a kitchen or bath. I wouldn't waste $ installing
arcfaults.

Just my .02

AZCRAIG

www.azcraig.us



"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello:

I guess this post really dates me, and ceretainly does
make me feel old.

Have just heard about the relatively new type of circuit breakers termed
"arc fault circuit breakers".
Have reads up a bit on them, but still have several questions, please:

I live in a 25 year old house in Mass., that has the conventional type of
circuit breakers installed.

a. Should I replace all, or just the ones going to e.g., the bedroom
outlets with this new type ?

Why ?

b. What about the GFCI ground-fault breakers that I have installed for my
few outlets in the garrage, and on the porch ?

What's best for this type of location; the GFCI, or the new arc
fault type ? Why ?

c. Do they have any available that combine both features ?

If so, approx. cost ?

Is this a good approach?

d. Anyone familiar with the building codes in Mass. and how it relates to
this ?

Not too sure what else to ask, but would like to learn about what types to
use in a residence, where, pros and cons,
etc., if anyone has a few spare minutes would be most appreciative.

Thanks,
Bob

Not too sure what else to ask, but would like to learn about what types to
use in a residence, where, pros and cons,
etc., if anyone has a few spare minutes would be most appreciative.


AFCI breakers are designed to protect you from a threat that has
about zero chance of killing you. don't even bother, except where
required by law.

--Goedjn

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello:

I guess this post really dates me, and ceretainly does
make me feel old.

Have just heard about the relatively new type of circuit breakers termed
"arc fault circuit breakers".
Have reads up a bit on them, but still have several questions, please:

I live in a 25 year old house in Mass., that has the conventional type of
circuit breakers installed.

a. Should I replace all, or just the ones going to e.g., the bedroom
outlets with this new type ?

When I priced the AFCI they were less than $40 for the panel I am installing
in my rentals. Sounds to me like cheap insurance. Especially if all you
need to do is pop out the breaker and pop in the new one.

I am going to install them in the bedroom and the living room.



Why ?

Safely doing the job never hurts. The little wiring book I have (Wiring
Simplified) states:

The U.S.Consumer Product Safety Comission estamates that anually that there
are more than 40,000 fires in residential occupancies, resulting in 250
lives lost and 1 billion in financial loss. It has been estimated that 40%
of these fires are caused by arcing faults...

===========end quote===============

If your house is only 25 years old it should be a couple of breakers and 10
minutes with a screw driver to install them.



--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:14:24 GMT, "cm"
wrote:

GFCI's could be nice in a kitchen or bath. I wouldn't waste $ installing
arcfaults.

Please, don't make a statement like this without following it up with
why you believe they are a waste.

Some of us are willing to listen to what you have to say.

later,



Just my .02

AZCRAIG

www.azcraig.us



"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello:

I guess this post really dates me, and ceretainly does
make me feel old.

Have just heard about the relatively new type of circuit breakers termed
"arc fault circuit breakers".
Have reads up a bit on them, but still have several questions, please:

I live in a 25 year old house in Mass., that has the conventional type of
circuit breakers installed.

a. Should I replace all, or just the ones going to e.g., the bedroom
outlets with this new type ?

Why ?

b. What about the GFCI ground-fault breakers that I have installed for my
few outlets in the garrage, and on the porch ?

What's best for this type of location; the GFCI, or the new arc
fault type ? Why ?

c. Do they have any available that combine both features ?

If so, approx. cost ?

Is this a good approach?

d. Anyone familiar with the building codes in Mass. and how it relates to
this ?

Not too sure what else to ask, but would like to learn about what types to
use in a residence, where, pros and cons,
etc., if anyone has a few spare minutes would be most appreciative.

Thanks,
Bob



tom @ www.CarFleaMarket.com

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:40:32 -0500, "
wrote:


Not too sure what else to ask, but would like to learn about what types to
use in a residence, where, pros and cons,
etc., if anyone has a few spare minutes would be most appreciative.


AFCI breakers are designed to protect you from a threat that has
about zero chance of killing you. don't even bother, except where
required by law.

--Goedjn

That logic is flawed. I have a overflow drains on all my sinks, but I
have almost zero risk of drowning. Ok, bad analogy Sometimes the
cost of the breaker(40 bucks) is cheaper than the clean up of a small
fire.

later,

tom @ www.BookmarkAdmin.com

Hi,

Thanks for all the good info.

Just curious:

On new home construction, what are they (generally) putting in the
distribution boxes these days ? (I live in Mass., but guess this is a
general, any area, type question)

Regular circuit breakers, and the arc fault type only in the bedrooms ?

Or, all arc fault ?

Or... ?

Bob

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good info.

Just curious:

On new home construction, what are they (generally) putting in the
distribution boxes these days ? (I live in Mass., but guess this is a
general, any area, type question)

Regular circuit breakers, and the arc fault type only in the bedrooms ?

Or, all arc fault ?

Or... ?

Bob


In my area new or "to code" updating (full replacement) requires arc fault
only in bedrooms for residential construction.

The local code pretty much follows the national one as it is adopted. Your
area may have standards that exceed the NEC but it is unusual for a
community to at least not meet "last year's code".

Most GFIC is done at the receptacle level.

Colbyt

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:53:37 -0500, "Robert11"
wrote:

a. Should I replace all, or just the ones going to e.g., the bedroom
outlets with this new type ?

As you have read the new breakers give you an additional safety.
Bedrooms are the only place they are called for by code right now but
I wouldn't be suprised to see them required in more places soon. They
are a good idea everywhere imho. Especially in places where you have
outlelts with things plugged in behind furniture or covered by
draperes etc. A very good friend of mine died right before Christmas
due to a lamp with a bad cord that arced and caused the couch to cath
on fire Would I buy a $40 breaker to have him back again. You
betcha.


b. What about the GFCI ground-fault breakers that I have installed for my
few outlets in the garrage, and on the porch ?


I'm not aware of any that combine both but I'm only the son of an
electrician and not the real thing so they could exist and I don't
know about it. You don't want to replace you gfci breakers with
another breaker that lacks that functionaily. I don't know what would
happen if you used an arc fault breaker and then gfci plugs for the
apporpriat circuits. If your interested let us know and I will ask my
dad about it.

Steve B.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:53:37 -0500, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hello:

I guess this post really dates me, and ceretainly does
make me feel old.

Have just heard about the relatively new type of circuit breakers termed
"arc fault circuit breakers".
Have reads up a bit on them, but still have several questions, please:

I live in a 25 year old house in Mass., that has the conventional type of
circuit breakers installed.

a. Should I replace all, or just the ones going to e.g., the bedroom
outlets with this new type ?

I don't think I'd replace any quite yet. The local university tried
them in some new construction; ended up replacing them with
conventional breakers because of constant nuissance tripping.

Why ?

b. What about the GFCI ground-fault breakers that I have installed for my
few outlets in the garrage, and on the porch ?

Afcis have some ground-fault capability, but they take a larger ground
fault to trip; I'd rather leave the gfci breakers for where they are
needed.
What's best for this type of location; the GFCI, or the new arc fault
type ? Why ?



If you want to protect yourself, make sure you keep mice out of it;
wires won't arc unless something has chewed off the insolation or
something wasn't installed correctly.

If you want to protect yourself, make sure you keep mice out of it;
wires won't arc unless something has chewed off the insolation or
something wasn't installed correctly.

Wires won't but switches do all the time. Do you reckon that might be a
problem? )


Colbyt

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:16:03 -0500, "Colbyt"
wrote:


If you want to protect yourself, make sure you keep mice out of it;
wires won't arc unless something has chewed off the insolation or
something wasn't installed correctly.

Wires won't but switches do all the time. Do you reckon that might be a
problem? )


I wonder how the breakers deal with that. The biggest thing our local
university found is that plugging in anything like a fluorescent desk
light without having it turned off first would trip the afci every
time. I'm sure that the breakers available a few years from now will
be better than what is available today.

outlelts with things plugged in behind furniture or covered by
draperes etc. A very good friend of mine died right before Christmas
due to a lamp with a bad cord that arced and caused the couch to cath

Where?

"Chris Hill" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:16:03 -0500, "Colbyt"
wrote:


If you want to protect yourself, make sure you keep mice out of it;
wires won't arc unless something has chewed off the insolation or
something wasn't installed correctly.

Wires won't but switches do all the time. Do you reckon that might be a
problem? )


I wonder how the breakers deal with that. The biggest thing our local
university found is that plugging in anything like a fluorescent desk
light without having it turned off first would trip the afci every
time. I'm sure that the breakers available a few years from now will
be better than what is available today.

I speculate that it is more of an issue when a bed is jammed up against the
outlet and the plug for the clock radio starts arcing. The fact that the
AFCI responded to having a load being switched by the plug is exactly the
response they were supposed to have.
--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:53 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:


"Chris Hill" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:16:03 -0500, "Colbyt"
wrote:


If you want to protect yourself, make sure you keep mice out of it;
wires won't arc unless something has chewed off the insolation or
something wasn't installed correctly.

Wires won't but switches do all the time. Do you reckon that might be a
problem? )


I wonder how the breakers deal with that. The biggest thing our local
university found is that plugging in anything like a fluorescent desk
light without having it turned off first would trip the afci every
time. I'm sure that the breakers available a few years from now will
be better than what is available today.

I speculate that it is more of an issue when a bed is jammed up against the
outlet and the plug for the clock radio starts arcing. The fact that the
AFCI responded to having a load being switched by the plug is exactly the
response they were supposed to have.


Actually, no. When safety devices cause false-positives people
bypass/or remove them. For a safety device to work properly, it's not
suppose to **** people off in the process. The afci might have been
faulty, cause it's suppose to be smart enought to distingish a switch
closing and an actual arc.

I would have them replaced.

imho,

tom @ www.FreelancingProjects.com

According to Chip C :
There are no combination devices that anyone's heard of yet so for each
circuit you need to choose afci *or* gfci breaker. You could put a gfci
outlet on a circuit protected by an afci-protected breaker. In fact I
have one; on an ungrounded circuit in a bedroom.

I've been lead to understand that AFCIs actually _do_ have a GFCI function,
but the threshold current is in the range of 30ma instead of 5ma.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:53 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:


"Chris Hill" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:16:03 -0500, "Colbyt"
wrote:


If you want to protect yourself, make sure you keep mice out of it;
wires won't arc unless something has chewed off the insolation or
something wasn't installed correctly.

Wires won't but switches do all the time. Do you reckon that might be
a
problem? )


I wonder how the breakers deal with that. The biggest thing our local
university found is that plugging in anything like a fluorescent desk
light without having it turned off first would trip the afci every
time. I'm sure that the breakers available a few years from now will
be better than what is available today.

I speculate that it is more of an issue when a bed is jammed up against
the
outlet and the plug for the clock radio starts arcing. The fact that the
AFCI responded to having a load being switched by the plug is exactly the
response they were supposed to have.


Actually, no. When safety devices cause false-positives people
bypass/or remove them. For a safety device to work properly, it's not
suppose to **** people off in the process. The afci might have been
faulty, cause it's suppose to be smart enought to distingish a switch
closing and an actual arc.

I would have them replaced.


He didn't say the breakers tripped when the lamp was switched on, he said:

"The biggest thing our local university found is that plugging in anything
like a fluorescent desk light without having it turned off first would trip
the afci every time."

When the plug is inserted into the socket there is an arc if there is a
load. The breaker is doing what it was designed to do.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:38:30 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:53 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:


"Chris Hill" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:16:03 -0500, "Colbyt"
wrote:


If you want to protect yourself, make sure you keep mice out of it;
wires won't arc unless something has chewed off the insolation or
something wasn't installed correctly.

Wires won't but switches do all the time. Do you reckon that might be
a
problem? )


I wonder how the breakers deal with that. The biggest thing our local
university found is that plugging in anything like a fluorescent desk
light without having it turned off first would trip the afci every
time. I'm sure that the breakers available a few years from now will
be better than what is available today.

I speculate that it is more of an issue when a bed is jammed up against
the
outlet and the plug for the clock radio starts arcing. The fact that the
AFCI responded to having a load being switched by the plug is exactly the
response they were supposed to have.


Actually, no. When safety devices cause false-positives people
bypass/or remove them. For a safety device to work properly, it's not
suppose to **** people off in the process. The afci might have been
faulty, cause it's suppose to be smart enought to distingish a switch
closing and an actual arc.

I would have them replaced.


He didn't say the breakers tripped when the lamp was switched on, he said:

"The biggest thing our local university found is that plugging in anything
like a fluorescent desk light without having it turned off first would trip
the afci every time."

Sorry distingish a circuit loop closing( a small series arc), and an
actual arc.


When the plug is inserted into the socket there is an arc if there is a
load. The breaker is doing what it was designed to do.

In this story, wouldn't be supprised the lamps were somehow faulty.
Like the plugs were warn, or too small and while minipulating the
plug, it had loose connections.

But that's me, I'm sold on afci, and hope with time they will get
better and cheaper with more public use.

later,

tom

But that's me, I'm sold on afci, and hope with time they will get
better and cheaper with more public use.


WHY are you sold on AFCI? As near as I can figure from the
numbers, less than a dozen people per year are killed by
fires that an AFCI would have prevented.

WHY are you sold on AFCI? As near as I can figure from the
numbers, less than a dozen people per year are killed by
fires that an AFCI would have prevented.

If we used that kind of logic we would have to stop the drug war!

would have prevented.

If we used that kind of logic we would have to stop the drug war!

You say that like it's a bad thing.

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:54:43 -0500, "
wrote:



But that's me, I'm sold on afci, and hope with time they will get
better and cheaper with more public use.


WHY are you sold on AFCI? As near as I can figure from the
numbers, less than a dozen people per year are killed by
fires that an AFCI would have prevented.

Because:

1. I could be one of those 12 people a year.
2. One of my family members can be one of those 12 a year
3. Because of the fire prevention value.

http://www.chopurl.com?526


later,

tom @ www.FindMeShelter.com