"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Steve B" wrote in message
...
But how can this be? Someone who has hung a lot of rock knowing a lot
more than a clueless newbie? It's against the laws of Usenet denizens, I
say!

WHO's a "clueless newbie"?

And where the hell does someone automatically get the information about
how many boards of rock I've hung in my life?

I'm "competent" in all the basic construction trades, sir. Did it for
over ten years before I realized that brain-sweat was a more effective
lubricant for my money machine than pit-sweat.

LLoyd


Sorry. Your comments about the rotozip just made you APPEAR like a clueless
newbie. Apparently you are a clueless experienced person.

Sorry.

Steve

"Steve B" wrote in message
...
Sorry. Your comments about the rotozip just made you APPEAR like a
clueless newbie. Apparently you are a clueless experienced person.

You've apparently attributed someone else's post to me. I said the rotozip
style of hand router was a _good_ thing for drywalling. It's easy, quick,
does just what it was made for, and in the basic version, it's inexpensive.

How is that "clueless"? Or is that just your description of anyone who
disagrees with you?

LLoyd

It was, in fact, ATP who stated he was a dry-waller, and that the
contractors he knows still use the keyhole saw.

And he wasn't condemning the rotozip per se, just providing some
perspective.
Something Steve B seems to have problems with.

I do have a Q, tho:

When you use the rotozip against an outlet box, doesn't the *tip* of the
cutter then need a bearing of sorts, to not scar the box up?
The tips I have will actually have the flutes on the side of the box.
Or mebbe scarring the box up is not such an issue.

I used it already, to cannibalize the1,824 cu in into a real tool case, by
cutting out the guts.
What a pita, but in fact the rotozip was, poetically in this case, the right
tool for the job!
Hard to control freehand, tho.

I think you made the observation that the 'zip shoves the dust inside.
Indeed, the long-helix cutter that came with it is a left-handed spiral, so
much of the dust does in fact go inside.

I don't know that I'll ever use it again, drywall notwithstanding.
It does, however, nicely fill the gap between a dremel and die grinder,
size-wise, so I can see using it for some grinding--5 A motor, iirc.

Mine has the two-speed switch, which is an interesting safety design--not
all that ergonometric, but a decent design from a safety pov--smack it down,
shuts off.
Hey, but how bout a trigger on a handle.... That's a novel idea.....
You can put this on a Variac or other single phase speed controller for more
Dremel-like rpm control.

Still, I object to it's misrepresentation, which is what my OP was all
about.
May have overstated a few things, but ****, heat of battle, donchaknow....
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Steve B" wrote in message
...
Sorry. Your comments about the rotozip just made you APPEAR like a
clueless newbie. Apparently you are a clueless experienced person.

You've apparently attributed someone else's post to me. I said the
rotozip style of hand router was a _good_ thing for drywalling. It's
easy, quick, does just what it was made for, and in the basic version,
it's inexpensive.

How is that "clueless"? Or is that just your description of anyone who
disagrees with you?

LLoyd

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
...
"Proctologically Violated©®"
writes:

No way you could re-tile a g-d bathroom with it, or peel up a kitchen
floor's worth of linoleum, or usefully sand anything but the edge of a
2x4.
iirc, the mis-infomercial spent mebbe 5%, if that, on valid ****rock
applications.

Your problem is that you watch infomercials. If you didn't watch them
(and don't tell me that you didn't know at the time that they were lying
to you!) you wouldn't have unreasonable expectations of what products
can do.

I don't just watch them....
I STUDY them and take notes. No foolin...

And no, there are unreasonable expectations.
I just hate lying em effers, is all.


Perhaps "hustle" is a better word than "junk".
Like the drill doctor, where they claim a 1/2" bit costs $20, or a
fractional drill set $100, when decent 115 pc drill sets can be had for
$29.

It depends on what quality of drill bits you buy, doesn't it? If you
buy your bits at $29/set, then it doesn't make sense to spend $100 on a
Drill Doctor - but surely you could figure that out for yourself. On
the other hand, if you regularly buy expensive drill bits, it might be
worthwhile.

Yeah, but mebbe YOU figgered out that the infomercials are in fact directed
at people who are precisely NOT paying $100 for 29 drills. Not too many
home-moaners req. parabolic cobalt/carbide.
Altho I'm sure the informercial is being produced to convince them that they
DO need parabolic carbide, w/ a coolant hole.


Also, there's the time aspect. If I dull or damage a drill, it takes
far less time to resharpen it in an in-house DD than it does to drive to
the nearest store where I can buy a new drill. That's worth something.

I'll bet I can sharpen a drill by hand far more quickly than you can find,
plug in, set up yer DD.
And bleeve me, ahm no 'spert.
Mebbe not perfectly symmetrically, but more than adequately.
It takes very little change in drill geometry to make it dull. Therefore,
it often takes but a touch to make is sharp again.
Not to mention being able to put different angles/tips on the drill, as
req'd.

Here's the deal:
In previous threads, the consensus was, among experienced machinists, is
that for critical work *neither* hand sharpening nor DD are as accurate as a
new drill.
But, *home-moaners* will NEVER require that level of accuracy.
So, the DD fills a kind of void that, well, doesn't really need to be
filled.

Oh, oh, except that void CREATED by hustling a Drill Doctor instead of
TEACHING people a simple shop technique.

Now, I'm sure there are some scenarios where a DD is in fact useful.
But that's not the point.
The point is, The Hustle.
AND, the ultimate disservice done when *education* is denied, in favor of,
well, The Hustle.


Or the instant sharpening of a carbide masonry bit--give me a break. You
couldn't sharpen a masonry bit that fast even on a green wheel on a 8"
pedestal grinder.

Um, have you tried it? I have. The diamond wheel in the DD removed
carbide from the bit astonishingly fast, given the light pressure and
momentary contact that I used. A green wheel is silicon carbide, which
is nowhere close to diamond in hardness. (And I have used a green wheel
to sharpen carbide lathe tools).

I stand corrected.
I'll have to fire up my Baldor w/ diamond wheels (sitting there for a year
now), see how it does on masonry bits.


A pedagogic note:
God Forbid that the Pubic be TAUGHT how to sharpen drill bits by hand.
Not saying the DD is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but it
is
F'SURE a hustle.

You mean that the infomercials are a hustle. Don't watch them. Feel
better now? Actually just turn off the TV entirely, you'll feel better
yet.

You actually have a good point here.
I feel like a heroin addict shooting up *very* bad heroin.



My own impression of the DD is that it provides a pretty decent
sharpening job with minimal skill. The 180 grit wheel is somewhat
coarse compared to whatever does the final grinding on new bits. I
could *probably* do better with lots of practice, but the DD means I
don't need to spend that time practicing just to make a dull bit usable
again.

Or the ""7,000 lb truck" running over an Oreck. Please.....

Sleight-of-hand is *necessarily* employed by junk vendors, vending largely
junk.

So change the channel already!

A very important point you raise.
Changing the channel is not a real solution, when so many others are
unwittingly addicted/conned.
Simply changing the channel, without attempting to do something about it is,
in principle, irresponsible.
But from a practical pov, probably little other option.

But simply "changing the channel" is what is allowing Congress to rape every
man, woman, and child in this country.
And sit is Session to chortle about it.

Your earlier "advice" was actually better: throw out the TV.

Ergo, see my sig.


--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs







Dave

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
I do have a Q, tho:

When you use the rotozip against an outlet box, doesn't the *tip* of the
cutter then need a bearing of sorts, to not scar the box up?
The tips I have will actually have the flutes on the side of the box.
Or mebbe scarring the box up is not such an issue.

The bits come in a number of styles, one of which is a "safe tip"... it has
an unfluted bearing portion about 3/8" long at the tip... it'll sort of burn
a plastic box but not badly, skids nice on phenolic and metal, and doesn't
cut any flying wires inside the box (so long as you have your depth set
reasonably right).

LLoyd

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
It was, in fact, ATP who stated he was a dry-waller, and that the
contractors he knows still use the keyhole saw.

I am not a drywaller. I have, however, installed quite a bit of rock over a
35 year period, and used a PC drywall router with the drywall bit. It has
some advantages but is far from being universally adopted. It is mostly
homeowners who can't do the smallest job without bringing out all of their
"labor saving" tools. Meanwhile, a skilled guy with some hand tools would
already be halfway done.

"ATP*" wrote in
:


"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote in message ...
It was, in fact, ATP who stated he was a dry-waller, and that the
contractors he knows still use the keyhole saw.

I am not a drywaller. I have, however, installed quite a bit of rock
over a 35 year period, and used a PC drywall router with the drywall
bit. It has some advantages but is far from being universally adopted.
It is mostly homeowners who can't do the smallest job without bringing
out all of their "labor saving" tools. Meanwhile, a skilled guy with
some hand tools would already be halfway done.




As Tim Taylor would say; "more Power,Arggh...!" 8-)

(Home Improvement,"Tool Time")

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"Proctologically Violated©®" writes:

Also, there's the time aspect. If I dull or damage a drill, it takes
far less time to resharpen it in an in-house DD than it does to drive to
the nearest store where I can buy a new drill. That's worth something.

I'll bet I can sharpen a drill by hand far more quickly than you can find,
plug in, set up yer DD.

Maybe you can. But I can find and "set up" (i.e. place it on a table
somewhere) my DD in less time than I can get my bench grinder set up
and ready to use. Right now, the grinder is sitting behind a
mini-lathe.

And bleeve me, ahm no 'spert.
Mebbe not perfectly symmetrically, but more than adequately.
It takes very little change in drill geometry to make it dull. Therefore,
it often takes but a touch to make is sharp again.
Not to mention being able to put different angles/tips on the drill, as
req'd.

Because the DD uses a chuck to hold the drill and cams to control its
motion, it seems pretty good at getting both cutting edges the same
length and the same angle. It seems less good at getting the same
cutting geometry on all sizes of drills - the smallest sizes go a bit
weird. This is with the 350X, the cheapest current model, which uses a
chuck that's effectively a pair of V-blocks and has built-in fingers on
the jaws to set the rotational position of the drill. The more
expensive models use 6-jaw chucks to hold the drill and an entirely
different alignment method, so they may work better.

The point is, The Hustle.
AND, the ultimate disservice done when *education* is denied, in favor of,
well, The Hustle.

Selling stuff to people who are too lazy to learn a technique that
requires more skill is a time-honoured way to make money. I don't have
a problem with that if the machine actually works. The DD does work
well enough that I think it's useful.

Now, maybe I'm just too lazy to spend the time needed to become
reasonably competent at sharpening a drill. But I do have a bench
grinder, and I do have the tools needed to true the wheel, so I'll
believe that I could do it eventually. Lots of people don't even own a
bench grinder, or they do but the wheels are far from having a flat
cutting face. They are considerably further from being able to do their
own freehand drill sharpening.

You mean that the infomercials are a hustle. Don't watch them. Feel
better now? Actually just turn off the TV entirely, you'll feel better
yet.

You actually have a good point here.
I feel like a heroin addict shooting up *very* bad heroin.

I'm pretty unimpressed with TV these days. I've probably watched less
than 5 hours of TV in the past year.

Dave

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
...
"Proctologically Violated©®"
writes:

Also, there's the time aspect. If I dull or damage a drill, it takes
far less time to resharpen it in an in-house DD than it does to drive to
the nearest store where I can buy a new drill. That's worth something.

I'll bet I can sharpen a drill by hand far more quickly than you can find,
plug in, set up yer DD.

Maybe you can. But I can find and "set up" (i.e. place it on a table
somewhere) my DD in less time than I can get my bench grinder set up
and ready to use. Right now, the grinder is sitting behind a
mini-lathe.

Dude, you have an inaccessible bench grinder? A fellow with a mini lathe?
A more accessible DD??
You gotta get yer priorities straight!


And bleeve me, ahm no 'spert.
Mebbe not perfectly symmetrically, but more than adequately.
It takes very little change in drill geometry to make it dull. Therefore,
it often takes but a touch to make is sharp again.
Not to mention being able to put different angles/tips on the drill, as
req'd.

Because the DD uses a chuck to hold the drill and cams to control its
motion, it seems pretty good at getting both cutting edges the same
length and the same angle. It seems less good at getting the same
cutting geometry on all sizes of drills - the smallest sizes go a bit
weird. This is with the 350X, the cheapest current model, which uses a
chuck that's effectively a pair of V-blocks and has built-in fingers on
the jaws to set the rotational position of the drill. The more
expensive models use 6-jaw chucks to hold the drill and an entirely
different alignment method, so they may work better.

The point is, The Hustle.
AND, the ultimate disservice done when *education* is denied, in favor of,
well, The Hustle.

Selling stuff to people who are too lazy to learn a technique that
requires more skill is a time-honoured way to make money. I don't have
a problem with that if the machine actually works. The DD does work
well enough that I think it's useful.

Time honored indeed.
I don't deny the DD does "work", but that is the minor point here. At least
my minor point.
And indeed, keeping the Great American Pubic dumb, and ergo in substantial
negative cash flow, keeps the economy booming.
That and inflated real estate values.
An educated consumer, whilst perhaps Sy Simms' best customer, is overall an
economic disaster.
Stupid and spending, jack, stupid and spending.

Not calling you stupid, btw--it seems the DD fills your particular niche, as
most hustles will a niche.
The hustle is, however, over-hyping/generalizing said niche.
Bleeve me, iffin *I* can sharpen drills quickly, *anyone* can.

What you might find useful is Sears' Utility Sharpener, which is a wide
faced (about 2") slow revolving wet stone, which is less aggressive in its
cutting, might make drill sharpening easier, more reliable.
Except for snapped drills, a bench grinder is good just to get the general
shape.


Now, maybe I'm just too lazy to spend the time needed to become
reasonably competent at sharpening a drill. But I do have a bench
grinder, and I do have the tools needed to true the wheel, so I'll
believe that I could do it eventually. Lots of people don't even own a
bench grinder, or they do but the wheels are far from having a flat
cutting face. They are considerably further from being able to do their
own freehand drill sharpening.

The above Sears. Good for knives, as well, which I think was its intended
purpose.


You mean that the infomercials are a hustle. Don't watch them. Feel
better now? Actually just turn off the TV entirely, you'll feel better
yet.

You actually have a good point here.
I feel like a heroin addict shooting up *very* bad heroin.

I'm pretty unimpressed with TV these days. I've probably watched less
than 5 hours of TV in the past year.

You are my hero and role model.
Or, you are very, very old.
Nuthin wrong with that, either.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs




Dave

"Proctologically Violated©®" writes:

Dude, you have an inaccessible bench grinder? A fellow with a mini lathe?
A more accessible DD??
You gotta get yer priorities straight!

We moved a year ago and haven't finished unpacking yet. The garage,
which will eventually be the woodworking shop, is still full of all
sorts of other things. I have a bench grinder, but it's currently
sharing a single bench top with a mini-lathe, a scroll saw, a belt
sander, and a drill press. The drill press is ready to use any time,
but to use any of the others you have to move a couple of things around.
We're not going to be able to use the lathe at all until the garage
gets further unpacked, unless we take it outdoors.

The DD may be a less general-purpose tool, but it's also a lot smaller.
It sits in a cupboard in the house and is immediately available.

Bleeve me, iffin *I* can sharpen drills quickly, *anyone* can.

Well, I can make a drill cut again by hand. But I mostly use drills on
metal, not wood, so I care about them cutting lousy holes. And an
off-center point or unequal cutting edge angles will make a messy hole.
So a certain amount of precision is needed in sharpening.

What you might find useful is Sears' Utility Sharpener, which is a wide
faced (about 2") slow revolving wet stone, which is less aggressive in its
cutting, might make drill sharpening easier, more reliable.
Except for snapped drills, a bench grinder is good just to get the general
shape.

I've seen various wet grinders around. Lee Valley makes a sharpener
that uses dry abrasive sheets on an aluminum platen that should behave
similarly. But they're all more than I'm willing to pay at the moment.
I do have a Wen thing that uses a cylindrical stone, but haven't been
able to get consistent results with it.

The above Sears. Good for knives, as well, which I think was its intended
purpose.

For knives that just need touching up, I hand sharpen with a stone and
angle guide. For dull knives, I might use a diamond stone by hand.
And for really blunt knives that need a lot of metal removed, a very
fine grit belt on the belt sander works amazingly fast. (This is a 1
inch wide belt on a bench sander, not the 3 inch belts of portable sanders).

I'm pretty unimpressed with TV these days. I've probably watched less
than 5 hours of TV in the past year.

You are my hero and role model.
Or, you are very, very old.

I'm 50. Is that old? Depends on your perspective.

Dave

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
...
"Proctologically Violated©®"
writes:

Dude, you have an inaccessible bench grinder? A fellow with a mini lathe?
A more accessible DD??
You gotta get yer priorities straight!

We moved a year ago and haven't finished unpacking yet. The garage,
which will eventually be the woodworking shop, is still full of all
sorts of other things. I have a bench grinder, but it's currently
sharing a single bench top with a mini-lathe, a scroll saw, a belt
sander, and a drill press. The drill press is ready to use any time,
but to use any of the others you have to move a couple of things around.
We're not going to be able to use the lathe at all until the garage
gets further unpacked, unless we take it outdoors.

Well, ito of priorities, make it clear to the Wife that the Shop comes
before the Kitchen....


The DD may be a less general-purpose tool, but it's also a lot smaller.
It sits in a cupboard in the house and is immediately available.

Bleeve me, iffin *I* can sharpen drills quickly, *anyone* can.

Well, I can make a drill cut again by hand. But I mostly use drills on
metal, not wood, so I care about them cutting lousy holes. And an
off-center point or unequal cutting edge angles will make a messy hole.
So a certain amount of precision is needed in sharpening.

Well, mebbe iffin yer really picky....



What you might find useful is Sears' Utility Sharpener, which is a wide
faced (about 2") slow revolving wet stone, which is less aggressive in its
cutting, might make drill sharpening easier, more reliable.
Except for snapped drills, a bench grinder is good just to get the general
shape.

I've seen various wet grinders around. Lee Valley makes a sharpener
that uses dry abrasive sheets on an aluminum platen that should behave
similarly. But they're all more than I'm willing to pay at the moment.
I do have a Wen thing that uses a cylindrical stone, but haven't been
able to get consistent results with it.

The above Sears. Good for knives, as well, which I think was its intended
purpose.

For knives that just need touching up, I hand sharpen with a stone and
angle guide. For dull knives, I might use a diamond stone by hand.
And for really blunt knives that need a lot of metal removed, a very
fine grit belt on the belt sander works amazingly fast. (This is a 1
inch wide belt on a bench sander, not the 3 inch belts of portable
sanders).

I'm pretty unimpressed with TV these days. I've probably watched less
than 5 hours of TV in the past year.

You are my hero and role model.
Or, you are very, very old.

I'm 50. Is that old? Depends on your perspective.

Five-oh is about the right age to be totally disgusted with effing TV.
I think, tho, I'm going to have to be sent to rehab--LawnOrder, UFC,
donchaknow.....
And now that Dennis Farina is on LawnOrder, after rehab I'll probably need a
lifetime of Methadone.

I think that Wen ditty was discussed on rcm briefly. I think the Sears is a
knockoff.

If I had a whole tray of bits that needed sharpening, and I was doing only
118 o, I would consider a DD as a shop tool.
But usually I sharpen on the fly, so it is not yet an issue.

And since you are essentially correct, that the avg person is not going to
learn how to sharpen drills by hand, Voila, the DD becomes a commercially
viable product.

I would only add to that the "system" is set up to *make sure* that the avg
person does not *want* to learn how to sharpen bits themselves--or, to do
anything else themselves, really.
Home Depot and HGTV notwithstanding--both of which masterfully perpetuate a
marvelous fiction.

I still remember some artsy-craftsy pixie on HGTV, whippin out dat MIG
welder, like it was nuthin.... Please....
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs




Dave