Awl--

So my neighbor is cleaning out his garage, and ahm Mr. Popularity in my
neighborhood now, with my long-bed pickup truck.
So he's giving me all kinds of stuff, barbell weights (chrome plated!),
beach chairs for my shop, tools, among them, a near-new Rotozip.
By no means an RCM-type shop guy, even he dismissed it as junk, and indeed
he was correct.

But what *inneresting junk it is*!
Perhaps under the subtitle, Shoving it in so artfully you don't even feel
it....

It comes in a big-assed injection-molded case, so poorly designed--despite
its apparent sophistication--that after quite a time of tryna figger out
just how to get all the parts to fit in this big-assed case, I found a more
suitably sized and infinitely more practical and useful shoebox, dumped the
'zip and parts in, and was amazed at the shrinkage in sheer packaging
volume.

To wit:
The volume of the rotozip case calc'd out to 1,824 cubic inches.
What makes that significant is that a full *cubic foot* is a mere 1,728 cu
in.
What makes this even more striking is that a 5 gal bucket of joint compound,
paint, etc. is only 1,155 cubic inches.

So a cubic foot is no small volume.

The box I wound up putting the whole of the Rotozip kit in was 250 cu in,
and could have easily fit in a better-proportioned 200 cu. in.

So lessee,
1800 divided by 200 is 9.
Thus, the inflated the volume of this product by a factor of 9.

Which is about the same factor by which the infomercial peeple inflated its
usefulness.

This inflated-volume technique is widespread in Costco, Sears, Sam'sClub,
HD, etc, where "509 piece kits" of whatever super tool is at hand, when all
dumped in a paper bag, fit into a very small paper bag indeed.
Yet the display is enormous, for artfully good reason.
And which, even for a perenially PV'd cynic and semi-experienced shop rat as
myself, are enticing and at times near-intoxicating.

I was more struck by some of the brilliant engineering that goes into this
stuff, and into many near-useless consumer products, spanning the spectrum
of consumption. I'm amazed by some perfume bottles.
I wish I had the skill, talent, insight, and training to be able to
manufacture on this level.

And yet, not only is brilliant engineering thrown down the toilet on
uselessness, it also shoots itself in the foot with fatal flaws.

Which is really sort of ingenious as well, because these flaws are
essentially moot:
The product is near-useless, and 1 in one million will be used to the extent
where these flaws will actually manifest.
And, under real/normal usage, they are *guarownteeed* to manifest.
This thing, and various parts thereof, is *guarownteeed* to break, or break
off.

I was also struck by the sheer complexity of this item and all its klugey
attachments.
I got a near-$80,000 near-8,000 lb VMC in my garage (cnc milling machine),
with four *very* thick looseleaf binders jammed with documentation, which
took considerable effort to sufficiently digest so's I could actually use
this machine.

I can tell you right now, having toyed with all crap in the rotozip kit, and
having thumbed through all the disconnected and discombobulated paperwork in
this rotozip kit, that it would take a *significant fraction of the
time/energy/effort* it took me to get that goddamm VMC going (not counting
the ordeal of pert-near burning it down), to get this rotozip going.
A extraordinarily disproportionate fraction.

For a product--an oversized Dremel--whose sole purpose in this universe was
to thin out our wallets.
Considerable CorPirate board-room discussion went into this hustle, as well
as all the other Informercial Hustles out there.

The only use I see for this over-hyped crap is as a grinder heftier than a
Dremel, but not as hefty as a true die grinder.

Yeah, I imagine some hobbyist might be able to do sumpn with it, altho I
can't really imagine what.

But here's the fundamental problem with all this ill-designed over-hyped
crap:

When all the infomercial-ed choreography and contrived scenarios are over
and done with, you are left with a ""tool"" that pretty much dictates to YOU
what you can do with it, and how you can do it. It in fact dictates your
whole goddamm *strategy* of hobby-ing.
You are, imo, hamstrung with all its fragile peculiarities.
IOW, you must adapt to the oddities of a supposed do-it-all tool, which will
maybe indeed do it all, if you are adept at standing on your ears.

Visavis a tool that can *realistically* adapt to what you want it do.
Like a goddamm drill.
Or router.
Or sawzall.
Or even the crappiest jig/sabre saw.
Etc.

Another piece of Merkin Sleight-of-Hand Marketing, but another reason to
love this country.

All epitomized by the 9:1 inflation of its packaging volume.

The absolute apex of the Fleecing of Merka (short of the 100's of $$Billions
that Bush/Cheney's Halliburton is raking in from Iraq) is Tony Little's
fantasy fitness products, and Michael Thurmond's BluePrinting Yer body ****.
Goodgawd.... but another post.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

Yeah, I imagine some hobbyist might be able to do sumpn with it, altho I
can't really imagine what.

As far as I can see, the sole useful purpose of a rotozip is cutting out
the openings for electrical boxes in drywall. With a suitable bit its
pretty quick and does a good job.

Chris

you never hung drywall


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
Awl--

So my neighbor is cleaning out his garage, and ahm Mr. Popularity in my
neighborhood now, with my long-bed pickup truck.
So he's giving me all kinds of stuff, barbell weights (chrome plated!),
beach chairs for my shop, tools, among them, a near-new Rotozip.
By no means an RCM-type shop guy, even he dismissed it as junk, and indeed
he was correct.

But what *inneresting junk it is*!
Perhaps under the subtitle, Shoving it in so artfully you don't even feel
it....

It comes in a big-assed injection-molded case, so poorly designed--despite
its apparent sophistication--that after quite a time of tryna figger out
just how to get all the parts to fit in this big-assed case, I found a
more suitably sized and infinitely more practical and useful shoebox,
dumped the 'zip and parts in, and was amazed at the shrinkage in sheer
packaging volume.

To wit:
The volume of the rotozip case calc'd out to 1,824 cubic inches.
What makes that significant is that a full *cubic foot* is a mere 1,728 cu
in.
What makes this even more striking is that a 5 gal bucket of joint
compound, paint, etc. is only 1,155 cubic inches.

So a cubic foot is no small volume.

The box I wound up putting the whole of the Rotozip kit in was 250 cu in,
and could have easily fit in a better-proportioned 200 cu. in.

So lessee,
1800 divided by 200 is 9.
Thus, the inflated the volume of this product by a factor of 9.

Which is about the same factor by which the infomercial peeple inflated
its usefulness.

This inflated-volume technique is widespread in Costco, Sears, Sam'sClub,
HD, etc, where "509 piece kits" of whatever super tool is at hand, when
all dumped in a paper bag, fit into a very small paper bag indeed.
Yet the display is enormous, for artfully good reason.
And which, even for a perenially PV'd cynic and semi-experienced shop rat
as myself, are enticing and at times near-intoxicating.

I was more struck by some of the brilliant engineering that goes into this
stuff, and into many near-useless consumer products, spanning the spectrum
of consumption. I'm amazed by some perfume bottles.
I wish I had the skill, talent, insight, and training to be able to
manufacture on this level.

And yet, not only is brilliant engineering thrown down the toilet on
uselessness, it also shoots itself in the foot with fatal flaws.

Which is really sort of ingenious as well, because these flaws are
essentially moot:
The product is near-useless, and 1 in one million will be used to the
extent where these flaws will actually manifest.
And, under real/normal usage, they are *guarownteeed* to manifest.
This thing, and various parts thereof, is *guarownteeed* to break, or
break off.

I was also struck by the sheer complexity of this item and all its klugey
attachments.
I got a near-$80,000 near-8,000 lb VMC in my garage (cnc milling machine),
with four *very* thick looseleaf binders jammed with documentation, which
took considerable effort to sufficiently digest so's I could actually use
this machine.

I can tell you right now, having toyed with all crap in the rotozip kit,
and having thumbed through all the disconnected and discombobulated
paperwork in this rotozip kit, that it would take a *significant fraction
of the time/energy/effort* it took me to get that goddamm VMC going (not
counting the ordeal of pert-near burning it down), to get this rotozip
going.
A extraordinarily disproportionate fraction.

For a product--an oversized Dremel--whose sole purpose in this universe
was to thin out our wallets.
Considerable CorPirate board-room discussion went into this hustle, as
well as all the other Informercial Hustles out there.

The only use I see for this over-hyped crap is as a grinder heftier than a
Dremel, but not as hefty as a true die grinder.

Yeah, I imagine some hobbyist might be able to do sumpn with it, altho I
can't really imagine what.

But here's the fundamental problem with all this ill-designed over-hyped
crap:

When all the infomercial-ed choreography and contrived scenarios are over
and done with, you are left with a ""tool"" that pretty much dictates to
YOU what you can do with it, and how you can do it. It in fact dictates
your whole goddamm *strategy* of hobby-ing.
You are, imo, hamstrung with all its fragile peculiarities.
IOW, you must adapt to the oddities of a supposed do-it-all tool, which
will maybe indeed do it all, if you are adept at standing on your ears.

Visavis a tool that can *realistically* adapt to what you want it do.
Like a goddamm drill.
Or router.
Or sawzall.
Or even the crappiest jig/sabre saw.
Etc.

Another piece of Merkin Sleight-of-Hand Marketing, but another reason to
love this country.

All epitomized by the 9:1 inflation of its packaging volume.

The absolute apex of the Fleecing of Merka (short of the 100's of
$$Billions that Bush/Cheney's Halliburton is raking in from Iraq) is Tony
Little's fantasy fitness products, and Michael Thurmond's BluePrinting Yer
body ****.
Goodgawd.... but another post.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
Awl--


To wit:
The volume of the rotozip case calc'd out to 1,824 cubic inches.
What makes that significant is that a full *cubic foot* is a mere 1,728 cu
in.
What makes this even more striking is that a 5 gal bucket of joint
compound, paint, etc. is only 1,155 cubic inches.

So a cubic foot is no small volume.

The box I wound up putting the whole of the Rotozip kit in was 250 cu in,
and could have easily fit in a better-proportioned 200 cu. in.

So lessee,
1800 divided by 200 is 9.
Thus, the inflated the volume of this product by a factor of 9.

Which is about the same factor by which the infomercial peeple inflated
its usefulness.

This inflated-volume technique is widespread in Costco, Sears, Sam'sClub,
HD, etc, where "509 piece kits" of whatever super tool is at hand, when
all dumped in a paper bag, fit into a very small paper bag indeed.
Yet the display is enormous, for artfully good reason.
And which, even for a perenially PV'd cynic and semi-experienced shop rat
as myself, are enticing and at times near-intoxicating.

Having worked a number of years at Sears, I suspect the oversize packaging
is aimed more at deterring shop lifters than enticing buyers to buy. Chase
a shop lifter running with one of these gigantic boxes and he/she will
likely drop it to run faster. Also easier to see them walking out the door
with the merchandise and easier to cable a bunch of them together to prevent
the snatch and run in the first place. Of course this still won't the stop
the dedicated shop lifter.

Tom G.

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
Awl--
beach chairs for my shop, tools, among them, a near-new Rotozip.
By no means an RCM-type shop guy, even he dismissed it as junk, and indeed
he was correct.

But what *inneresting junk it is*!

I'm jumping on the popular bandwagon here, PV.

Yes, it's a cheaply-made tool. But it has a definite purpose.

Welll....... yeah.... all those silly attachments work just as well/poorly
as one might suppose. But in its native mode - drywall trimming - the tool
just makes one marvel that it hadn't been done before.

Don't bitch out those folks until you've rocked a whole house, and not had
to measure-cut-measure-curse all the openings.

I can _find_, jump, and zip a receptacle hole with a roto-zip faster than
you can draw it out on the rock with a pencil. It cuts circles fast, clean,
and precisely. The clearance around the box is just what you need for a
clean fit and finish. The whole idea was well thought-out, even if the tool
is made to Sears quality.

On my remod-job, I figured I've saved fifteen/twenty hours of fiddle-fuss by
buying the "basic" RZ kit for $69.00.

LLoyd

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
( A very long tirade sniped) :-)

For what I remember the "tool" in question was designed
to cut holes in drywall and I would think (never used one
myself) from what I see it would do that job very well.
The resultant of most marketing is to sell anything as
a "multi-purpose" tool so what you get is a "device"
that does nothing very well. :-)
...lew...

I bought one basic unit without accessories solely to cut box outlets in
drywall. I never considered it useful for anything else.

"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
( A very long tirade sniped) :-)

For what I remember the "tool" in question was designed
to cut holes in drywall and I would think (never used one
myself) from what I see it would do that job very well.
The resultant of most marketing is to sell anything as
a "multi-purpose" tool so what you get is a "device"
that does nothing very well. :-)
...lew...

On Apr 10, 7:45 am, Lew Hartswick wrote:
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

( A very long tirade sniped) :-)

For what I remember the "tool" in question was designed
to cut holes in drywall and I would think (never used one
myself) from what I see it would do that job very well.
The resultant of most marketing is to sell anything as
a "multi-purpose" tool so what you get is a "device"
that does nothing very well. :-)
...lew...


I bought based on the hype to freehand cut soft material and snapped
all the bits...promptly returned.

Later in life watched an international crew hang rock using a RZ and
OMG they were masters at it...poke and go...poke and go. When I
rocked my new house I bought another and it a place for that task.

In article ,
Chris Friesen wrote:

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

Yeah, I imagine some hobbyist might be able to do sumpn with it, altho I
can't really imagine what.

As far as I can see, the sole useful purpose of a rotozip is cutting out
the openings for electrical boxes in drywall. With a suitable bit its
pretty quick and does a good job.

Chris

if you really want to save money, you can buy the RZ style bits from
Dremel for your dremel. work just as well and only cost 5-6 bucks. Maybe
a little bit slower since it doesn't have the power.

--J

I have a rotozip too, it is good for a few things, such as drywall as
well as using with a carbide bur to shape wood.

i

As Party Nominee of the IPPVM (Independent Party of the Proctologically
Violated (M)asses), I guess I won't be counting on your vote in '08, eh?
sigh

And, gee, *I* was tryna keep it clean, mostly fer Harold.....

Sheep?????? Goodgawd....

But are you suggesting I stfu so's whatever Highlander is furiously
thrusting away on me can concentrate a little better, with less said
distraction???
Man, I should be carrying a goddamm whistle and Mace!

And, you missed much of the point.

OK, I omitted the sheetrock utility, which is a very valid point.
And by consensus here, apparently the only valid point.
And, I suspect, where that rotozip came from to begin with.

And I didn't make the shoplifter connection, altho I think this is is quite
secondary to the primary mission of fleecing the Great American Pubic.

All of which doesn't change the, uh, thrust of the above, said fleecing.
God forbid the rotozip should be honestly marketed as a functional drywall
tool.
God forbid.

But, sheeeiit, there are 300,000,000 all-consuming drunkards weaving thru
the shopping malls of Merka, and frenetically clicking between HSM and QVC,
all of whom have $100 bills flapping out of their back pockets.

Might as well pluck'em, eh?

ALSO:

Most who protesteth loudest over my PV shtick are perhaps the most unwitting
Members of the IPPVM.

To wit, the Law of the PV'd:

EVERY working stiff is an unwitting member of
IPPVM.

The only escapees are
1. Those who are actually doing the PV'ing.
And they pay me absolutely no mind, mostly because they are too busy
laughing hysterically in their board meetings, whilst strategizing the
details of Global PV, laughing to and fro the bank, and washing themselves
off at the sink--or even better, making US wash them off when they're
done--orally, if possible.
2. Those who are not PV'ing anyone explicitly, by being able to live
strictly off the interest of their investments.
Which, btw, from grand PV pov, is still an indirect PV, but dats
another story....
3. Retirees, with enough to live on--for now.

The rest of us, esp. the young (most of whom will likely *never* be able to
leave their parents' homes), better get skilled in dumpster diving.
Buy yer pickup truck *now*.
And a shotgun.
Practice DD'g fer tools, wood, n' metal'****, so's when it comes time to DD
fer FOOD, yer all well-practiced.

Hey, but the volume calculation ditty was pretty neat shtick, eh?
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:45:03 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:



The only use I see for this over-hyped crap is as a grinder heftier than a
Dremel, but not as hefty as a true die grinder.

It does jobs it was designed to do better than anything else
available. If it doesn't do what you need to do then you are free
to walk away from it and leave it alone. Your inability to
understand its value does not make it an abomination or a fleecing
because you are quite free not to buy one -- and in fact you did not
buy it so your ox has not been gored by your foolishly having
purchased a tool for which you have no use nor ability to use
productively.

You seem to persistently proclaim proctological violation enough to
suggest that perhaps you invite it and enjoy it or at least enjoy
bleating about it. If you don't enjoy and invite you might consider
presenting less of a vertical smile with spread-cheeks invitation --
and less bleating about eager and vigorous responses to your
invitations might be appreciated.

Ask any Highlander. Screwing a sheep serves a need though the bloody
bleating can be distracting and a bit tedious...

I used it for drywall here and there, but I was amazed at how well I
was
able to make holes in tiles. Very nice clean cuts with no snapping
the stuff in half.
I've also used it to cut into fiberglass and put a wiz wheel to cut
metal.

Lots of good uses for the little rotozip, you just need the right
blade/bit for the job.

Tom

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

Yeah, I imagine some hobbyist might be able to do sumpn with it, altho I
can't really imagine what.

As far as I can see, the sole useful purpose of a rotozip is cutting out
the openings for electrical boxes in drywall. With a suitable bit its
pretty quick and does a good job.

Chris

We had to access the back of a faucet that was on a pony wall that had been
tiled over. We put a side cutting rotozip blade on there, cut through the
grout, the wonderboard, and cut one tile out very nicely, thank you. The
repair was almost invisible. Didn't break the tile. Regrouted. They ain't
for everything, but they work good for some things. I've used them during
remodeling, and they DO have their bright spots.

As for wasted space in the cases, I took a Makita drill case, cut out the
guts, and use it to carry my chain saw sharpening components. Took about
half an hour to cut all the crap out, though.

STeve

Oh, another quick thought, on the mentality of the marketers:

They don't even understand the basic utility of their own effing tool, for
drywall--or don't effing care.

If they did, instead of all the crap they stick in that suitcase-sized
carrying case--about the same size as Bosch's top of the line SDS-max rotary
hammer, at $549, a killer of a tool, bruh's--

Instead of all that crap, how bout a *usable* circle cutter, and router-like
TEMPLATES, dudes, for typical drywall cutouts--4,6" lighting cutouts, 2x4,
4x4 boxes, octagonals, etc. In fact, a templete for lighting cutouts would
obviate the circle cutter, in large measure--uh oh....
Nowhere, in the morass of of disjointed (and imo insulting) papers is there
even a mention of templates, that I could readily find.

Which says that the Marketers, in their boardroom meetings, *NEVER had any
intention for the rotozip to be used/taken seriously*.

As long as you bought the goddamm suitcase, and held on to it *just long
enough* so that it was no longer returnable.

I believe they dumped their inventory about a year ago, and you won't be
seeing dat **** until the next plucking.

Sheeit, iffin you can time the lemmings' march to the sea, you can eat good,
with minimal effort, for the next year.
xmas, in this case, I spose.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message news
As Party Nominee of the IPPVM (Independent Party of the Proctologically
Violated (M)asses), I guess I won't be counting on your vote in '08, eh?
sigh

And, gee, *I* was tryna keep it clean, mostly fer Harold.....

Sheep?????? Goodgawd....

But are you suggesting I stfu so's whatever Highlander is furiously
thrusting away on me can concentrate a little better, with less said
distraction???
Man, I should be carrying a goddamm whistle and Mace!

And, you missed much of the point.

OK, I omitted the sheetrock utility, which is a very valid point.
And by consensus here, apparently the only valid point.
And, I suspect, where that rotozip came from to begin with.

And I didn't make the shoplifter connection, altho I think this is is
quite secondary to the primary mission of fleecing the Great American
Pubic.

All of which doesn't change the, uh, thrust of the above, said fleecing.
God forbid the rotozip should be honestly marketed as a functional drywall
tool.
God forbid.

But, sheeeiit, there are 300,000,000 all-consuming drunkards weaving thru
the shopping malls of Merka, and frenetically clicking between HSM and
QVC, all of whom have $100 bills flapping out of their back pockets.

Might as well pluck'em, eh?

ALSO:

Most who protesteth loudest over my PV shtick are perhaps the most
unwitting Members of the IPPVM.

To wit, the Law of the PV'd:

EVERY working stiff is an unwitting member of
IPPVM.

The only escapees are
1. Those who are actually doing the PV'ing.
And they pay me absolutely no mind, mostly because they are too busy
laughing hysterically in their board meetings, whilst strategizing the
details of Global PV, laughing to and fro the bank, and washing themselves
off at the sink--or even better, making US wash them off when they're
done--orally, if possible.
2. Those who are not PV'ing anyone explicitly, by being able to live
strictly off the interest of their investments.
Which, btw, from grand PV pov, is still an indirect PV, but dats
another story....
3. Retirees, with enough to live on--for now.

The rest of us, esp. the young (most of whom will likely *never* be able
to leave their parents' homes), better get skilled in dumpster diving.
Buy yer pickup truck *now*.
And a shotgun.
Practice DD'g fer tools, wood, n' metal'****, so's when it comes time to
DD fer FOOD, yer all well-practiced.

Hey, but the volume calculation ditty was pretty neat shtick, eh?
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:45:03 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:



The only use I see for this over-hyped crap is as a grinder heftier than
a
Dremel, but not as hefty as a true die grinder.

It does jobs it was designed to do better than anything else
available. If it doesn't do what you need to do then you are free
to walk away from it and leave it alone. Your inability to
understand its value does not make it an abomination or a fleecing
because you are quite free not to buy one -- and in fact you did not
buy it so your ox has not been gored by your foolishly having
purchased a tool for which you have no use nor ability to use
productively.

You seem to persistently proclaim proctological violation enough to
suggest that perhaps you invite it and enjoy it or at least enjoy
bleating about it. If you don't enjoy and invite you might consider
presenting less of a vertical smile with spread-cheeks invitation --
and less bleating about eager and vigorous responses to your
invitations might be appreciated.

Ask any Highlander. Screwing a sheep serves a need though the bloody
bleating can be distracting and a bit tedious...

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
Instead of all that crap, how bout a *usable* circle cutter, and
router-like TEMPLATES, dudes, for typical drywall cutouts--4,6" lighting
cutouts, 2x4, 4x4 boxes, octagonals, etc. In fact, a templete for
lighting cutouts would obviate the circle cutter, in large measure--uh
oh....
Nowhere, in the morass of of disjointed (and imo insulting) papers is
there even a mention of templates, that I could readily find.

See, now, PV? You've attacked the tool (for the purpose for which it was
intended) because you don't understand the job.

You don't need any templates in the kit. You _have_ templates of every box
you'll ever cut out _IN_the_house_ at the time of the job. A new set of
templates comes with every drywall job; they're called "outlet boxes".

The purpose of the RZ is to follow the exact shape of whatever's hiding
behind the rock, and cut a perfect hole exactly the right shape and size for
proper finishing of the wall. And it does that faster than you can think,
and it does it well.

Their circle cutter IS very usable -- in fact a pure joy to use. At least
the version that comes with the bottom-of-the-line kit is. I hung a few
dozen recessed fixtures for which there were no outlet boxes flush with the
ceiling. It took about an hour to mark out all the centers, and about an
hour to cut all the 5-1/4" holes.



LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote in message ...
Awl--
beach chairs for my shop, tools, among them, a near-new Rotozip.
By no means an RCM-type shop guy, even he dismissed it as junk, and
indeed he was correct.

But what *inneresting junk it is*!

I'm jumping on the popular bandwagon here, PV.

Yes, it's a cheaply-made tool. But it has a definite purpose.

Welll....... yeah.... all those silly attachments work just as
well/poorly as one might suppose. But in its native mode - drywall
trimming - the tool just makes one marvel that it hadn't been done
before.



Got that right. My rotozip was cheap at the price for chopping out
holes for the light cans, cut the rocking time massively wherever it was
usable. But they're more or less useless for anything other than
drywall, rpm too high and bits too soft- I'd say keep the rotozip and a
bag of drywall bits & throw out the rest, and by all means stick it in a
shoebox. After a couple renovation jobs the shoebox will start falling
apart, so maybe duct-tape the corners now to save time...

Gregm

I shoulda quit while I was ahead....

Yeah, but still the templates that are provided with the boxes themselves
are *not* router-type templates, cuz you need some sort of offset for
whatever the dimensional particulars of the tool at are.
And I'm talking a hard masonite-type template, not a paper template.

I've already conceded the utility of the zip for sheetrock, and a few other
specific tasks mentioned.
It is, essentially, a Dremel with muscle. Which can indeed be useful.

But not as infomercialed, with that 10:1 inflation ratio, volume and
otherwise.

And, try keeping track of all those bitty parts/pieces. I'm already missing
a bunch.

Inyone got a spare 1/4" collet--and the wrench?

Also, think of the original Circle marker: center nail, string, and chalk.
Butta-Bing, perfect circle.
You can use the same technique with the zip, with very accurate results.
And likely more conveniently.
The only downside with the string is that the zip will not be automatically
perpendicular to the 'rock, you must do that by eye/hand.
But given the non-critical nature of this aspect of the cut--roundness of
the circle is much more important--a string'n'nail ditty might be more
useful, overall.
But true, the circle cutting is useful, regardless of how you execute it.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote
in message ...
Instead of all that crap, how bout a *usable* circle cutter, and
router-like TEMPLATES, dudes, for typical drywall cutouts--4,6" lighting
cutouts, 2x4, 4x4 boxes, octagonals, etc. In fact, a templete for
lighting cutouts would obviate the circle cutter, in large measure--uh
oh....
Nowhere, in the morass of of disjointed (and imo insulting) papers is
there even a mention of templates, that I could readily find.

See, now, PV? You've attacked the tool (for the purpose for which it was
intended) because you don't understand the job.

You don't need any templates in the kit. You _have_ templates of every
box you'll ever cut out _IN_the_house_ at the time of the job. A new set
of templates comes with every drywall job; they're called "outlet boxes".

The purpose of the RZ is to follow the exact shape of whatever's hiding
behind the rock, and cut a perfect hole exactly the right shape and size
for proper finishing of the wall. And it does that faster than you can
think, and it does it well.

Their circle cutter IS very usable -- in fact a pure joy to use. At
least the version that comes with the bottom-of-the-line kit is. I hung a
few dozen recessed fixtures for which there were no outlet boxes flush
with the ceiling. It took about an hour to mark out all the centers, and
about an hour to cut all the 5-1/4" holes.



LLoyd

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
I shoulda quit while I was ahead....

Yeah, but still the templates that are provided with the boxes themselves
are *not* router-type templates, cuz you need some sort of offset for
whatever the dimensional particulars of the tool at are.
And I'm talking a hard masonite-type template, not a paper template.

You still aren't getting it.

1) Hang the sheet of drywall up on the wall with a few screws.
2) Punch the rotozip through the drywall anywhere inside the outlet box.
3) Cut to the edge of the box, then lift the bit out just enough to
"hop" over the wall of the outlet box (so the bit is on the outside of
the box).
4) Cut around the outside of the box with pressure inward towards the
box. The smooth portion at the tip of the bit follows the outlet box
without chewing it up, while the toothed portion cuts the drywall.
5) Put in the rest of the screws.

No predrawing, no separate template. At most you might need to mark the
rough position of the box to within an inch or so.

Chris

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
I shoulda quit while I was ahead....

Yeah, but still the templates that are provided with the boxes themselves
are *not* router-type templates, cuz you need some sort of offset for
whatever the dimensional particulars of the tool at are.
And I'm talking a hard masonite-type template, not a paper template.

You still aren't getting it.

1) Hang the sheet of drywall up on the wall with a few screws.
2) Punch the rotozip through the drywall anywhere inside the outlet box.
3) Cut to the edge of the box, then lift the bit out just enough to "hop"
over the wall of the outlet box (so the bit is on the outside of the box).
4) Cut around the outside of the box with pressure inward towards the box.
The smooth portion at the tip of the bit follows the outlet box without
chewing it up, while the toothed portion cuts the drywall.
5) Put in the rest of the screws.

No predrawing, no separate template. At most you might need to mark the
rough position of the box to within an inch or so.

Just imagine how long it took me to learn the Fadal.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs




Chris

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
I shoulda quit while I was ahead....

Yeah, but still the templates that are provided with the boxes themselves
are *not* router-type templates, cuz you need some sort of offset for
whatever the dimensional particulars of the tool at are.
And I'm talking a hard masonite-type template, not a paper template.

No, NO! NO! NNNNOOOOOOO!

You don't get it. You've never used the tool. I daresay you've never done
any drywalling.

I didn't say "templates provided _with_ the boxes". I said, "The templates
ARE the boxes."

The RZ tool was designed to easily: First, FIND the edge of a box from its
inside, then Second, JUMP the edge to the outside surface of the box, then
Third, ROUTE around the box, using the box itself as the "template".

The "offset" is provided by the tool automatically to be 1/8", which is
perfect for drywall work.

It takes roughly ten seconds (for me) to plunge the bit into the box, zip to
the edge, jump the edge, zip around the whole box. And I'm sloooowwwwww...

LLoyd

Yep, he never hung drywall...

Go stick your head up your ass, it might work better that way....

FWIW to anyone reading this thread....

Buy the Porter Cable Drywall cutout tool....It's half the diameter of a
Rotozip, way nicer to hold and use......

PV, don't bother.....I don't think you could figure out how to use it !!!!

Greg Menke wrote in
:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote in message ...
Awl--
beach chairs for my shop, tools, among them, a near-new Rotozip.
By no means an RCM-type shop guy, even he dismissed it as junk, and
indeed he was correct.

But what *inneresting junk it is*!

I'm jumping on the popular bandwagon here, PV.

Yes, it's a cheaply-made tool. But it has a definite purpose.

Welll....... yeah.... all those silly attachments work just as
well/poorly as one might suppose. But in its native mode - drywall
trimming - the tool just makes one marvel that it hadn't been done
before.



Got that right. My rotozip was cheap at the price for chopping out
holes for the light cans, cut the rocking time massively wherever it was
usable. But they're more or less useless for anything other than
drywall, rpm too high and bits too soft- I'd say keep the rotozip and a
bag of drywall bits & throw out the rest, and by all means stick it in a
shoebox. After a couple renovation jobs the shoebox will start falling
apart, so maybe duct-tape the corners now to save time...

Gregm


Or you could buy just the RZ bits and a $20 Harbor Freight trim router,and
get 1/4" router bits to do whatever other jobs you have. IIRC,the HF trim
router comes with 1/8" and 1/4" collets.

I've heard that drywall dust trashes the Dremel's bearings quickly.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"Never_Enough_Tools" wrote in message
...
FWIW to anyone reading this thread....

Buy the Porter Cable Drywall cutout tool....It's half the diameter of a
Rotozip, way nicer to hold and use......

PV, don't bother.....I don't think you could figure out how to use it !!!!

Porter Cable I could figger out, cuz PC is there to serve a trade/industry,
not fleece the goddamm public with a wannabe tool w/ 101 bitty parts
floating around in a 1,824 cu in case.
PC makes excellent tools. For how much longer remains to be seen, since
DeWalt bought them.

So NotEnoughBrains, where are you located?
If yer local, and I need some sheetrocking/laminating done, I'll call
you--if the job is simple.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

Along NotenoughBrains Porter Cable suggestion, Bosch makes sumpn similar to
these 'zip type ditties, a laminate trimmer, I believe, like a mini-router,
with a true base, removeable. Bought one years ago, for under $100.
Never used it. But likely could do rotozip stuff, handily.
Looks good on the shelf, tho.
And fits in a really small box.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Never_Enough_Tools" wrote in message
...
FWIW to anyone reading this thread....

Buy the Porter Cable Drywall cutout tool....It's half the diameter of a
Rotozip, way nicer to hold and use......

PV, don't bother.....I don't think you could figure out how to use it !!!!

So NotEnoughBrains, where are you located?
If yer local, and I need some sheetrocking/laminating done, I'll call
you--if the job is simple.
--

You don't have enough money to get me to come to that cesspool you live
in.......

Yonkers......Puhleeezzzeee.....

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...

Y'know, PV, the RotoZip was originally designed for, and used almost
exclusively by, professional board hangers. It dates back to the 1980s,
IIRC.

It's only fairly recently in its product life cycle that it became a popular
"But WAIT!" teevee sales item.

LLoyd

"Never_Enough_Tools" wrote in message
...



So NotEnoughBrains, where are you located?
If yer local, and I need some sheetrocking/laminating done, I'll call
you--if the job is simple.
--

You don't have enough money to get me to come to that cesspool you live
in.......

Yonkers......Puhleeezzzeee.....

I may not be too swift in ****rock, but you don't have an effing clue about
real estate, jack.
Yonkers is now good enough for Trump, dude.

There is probably *nowhere in the goddamm country* that real estate value
has increased as quickly as in Yonkers. Not saying it's as high as LIC, or
downtown Brooklyn, or Manhattan, but it's *rate of change* is astounding.
Unnerving, even.

The longtime problem with Yonkers was that the previous crooked politicians
hadn't realized how to whore out the city to real estate developers.
With the thermo-nukuler real estate explosion in Manhattan, the Current
Crooked Yonkers Politicians have figgered it out, and Yonkers, in the very
next few years, will probably be *the* most exclusive place to live, short
of Sutton Place in Manhattan and the riverfront mansions in
Riverdale--largely due to its very long shore line along the Hudson
(Yupsters gots to have dey water, donchaknow), and plentiful Amtrack routes,
etc--AND, last but not least, its *immediate* proximity to the Mount
Manhattan, or even closer, to Bronx subways.

About 10 years ago, Yonkers was the only place in the whole goddamm country
north of the Mason-Dixon line to lose a federal school segregation lawsuit,
with a judge who imposed exponentially mounting fines, doubling each day.

But those days are over, jack.

Sheeit, after they finish getting rid of the drug dealers, they will
probably try to get rid of me, and my ilk.

The *average* house in my immediate area is 5,000 sq feet, and *well over*
$1 mil.

Because of, well, the really good Pimps we now have in Local Gummint here.

Inyway, I'm sure the illegals around here ****rock as well as you do or
better, and for a whole lot less than your self-impressed price, so don't
worry about it.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote
in message ...
I shoulda quit while I was ahead....

Yeah, but still the templates that are provided with the boxes themselves
are *not* router-type templates, cuz you need some sort of offset for
whatever the dimensional particulars of the tool at are.
And I'm talking a hard masonite-type template, not a paper template.

No, NO! NO! NNNNOOOOOOO!

You don't get it. You've never used the tool. I daresay you've never
done any drywalling.

I didn't say "templates provided _with_ the boxes". I said, "The
templates ARE the boxes."

The RZ tool was designed to easily: First, FIND the edge of a box from its
inside, then Second, JUMP the edge to the outside surface of the box, then
Third, ROUTE around the box, using the box itself as the "template".

The "offset" is provided by the tool automatically to be 1/8", which is
perfect for drywall work.

It takes roughly ten seconds (for me) to plunge the bit into the box, zip
to the edge, jump the edge, zip around the whole box. And I'm
sloooowwwwww...

LLoyd

Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it. Most
drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote
in message ...
I shoulda quit while I was ahead....

Yeah, but still the templates that are provided with the boxes
themselves
are *not* router-type templates, cuz you need some sort of offset for
whatever the dimensional particulars of the tool at are.
And I'm talking a hard masonite-type template, not a paper template.

No, NO! NO! NNNNOOOOOOO!

You don't get it. You've never used the tool. I daresay you've never
done any drywalling.

I didn't say "templates provided _with_ the boxes". I said, "The
templates ARE the boxes."

The RZ tool was designed to easily: First, FIND the edge of a box from
its
inside, then Second, JUMP the edge to the outside surface of the box,
then
Third, ROUTE around the box, using the box itself as the "template".

The "offset" is provided by the tool automatically to be 1/8", which is
perfect for drywall work.

It takes roughly ten seconds (for me) to plunge the bit into the box,
zip
to the edge, jump the edge, zip around the whole box. And I'm
sloooowwwwww...

LLoyd

Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most
drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Rotozips kick ass. One guy with an RZ can do a whole house in the time it
takes a guy with a keyhole saw to do a big room. If the dust bugs you that
much spray a little water on the wall. Either way you are gonna clean up
some dust.

"Mark" wrote


Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most
drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Rotozips kick ass. One guy with an RZ can do a whole house in the time it
takes a guy with a keyhole saw to do a big room. If the dust bugs you that
much spray a little water on the wall. Either way you are gonna clean up
some dust.

Today, I used a RotoZip. I had to tee into a water line, and run a stub
through the wall to make an outside hose bibb. Zip zap. Located the
studs, cut a hole, sweated in a tee, put the piece back with a little mud,
done. I set the depth so that I wouldn't have to worry about cutting
anything, and I didn't even come CLOSE to anything.

I think that only a union man working by the hour would have anything
against a RotoZip.

A hand drywall saw definitely has places where it's the weapon of choice.
Not many, though.

Steve

Steve

"ATP*" wrote in message
...
Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Ah! Another contender for the "I've never used the tool, and don't know how
to drywall, but I know it's junk" crowd!

The "secret" to the RZ type tools is that they shove the dust INTO the wall.
You don't get a "hurricane of sheetrock dust". In fact, it's much cleaner
than sawing.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...
Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Ah! Another contender for the "I've never used the tool, and don't know
how to drywall, but I know it's junk" crowd!

"Junk" has different contexts.

A tool can be crappily built, mis-advertised and mis-represented, and still
be narrowly useful, as many posters have shown.

There is no way the Zip I now have could withstand prolonged
industrial/trade use--proly not even much home use, for a variety of
reasons, just one of which is that half the goddamm parts are already
missing--and likely inevitably so.

No way you could re-tile a g-d bathroom with it, or peel up a kitchen
floor's worth of linoleum, or usefully sand anything but the edge of a 2x4.
iirc, the mis-infomercial spent mebbe 5%, if that, on valid ****rock
applications.

Perhaps "hustle" is a better word than "junk".
Like the drill doctor, where they claim a 1/2" bit costs $20, or a
fractional drill set $100, when decent 115 pc drill sets can be had for $29.
Or the instant sharpening of a carbide masonry bit--give me a break. You
couldn't sharpen a masonry bit that fast even on a green wheel on a 8"
pedestal grinder.

A pedagogic note:
God Forbid that the Pubic be TAUGHT how to sharpen drill bits by hand.
Not saying the DD is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but it is
F'SURE a hustle.

Or the ""7,000 lb truck" running over an Oreck. Please.....
The back wheel of that goddamm pickup coulda run over my slippered foot
without doing much damage.
Not saying the Oreck is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but is
is F'SURE a hustle.

Sleight-of-hand is *necessarily* employed by junk vendors, vending largely
junk.

Even if said junk can be useful.

Better, as NotEnoughBrains suggested, to buy the Porter Cable, if for no
other reason, to spite the Junk Peeple.

So, the "I don't know ****, but I know it's junk" crowd can indeed not know
****, but still be right, just on Marketing GP.

Would be interesting, tho, to survey drywall contractors, to see what they
think, and why.
Would be a hoot if ATP were correct!!

Oh, this is funnier'n'****.... I was a supervisor for a drywall
construction firm in Manhattan. :O
Didn't know **** about ****rock then, either.
Except that it was goddamm heavy.....
Thank god my house is plaster & lathe...
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs




The "secret" to the RZ type tools is that they shove the dust INTO the
wall. You don't get a "hurricane of sheetrock dust". In fact, it's much
cleaner than sawing.

LLoyd

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...
Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Ah! Another contender for the "I've never used the tool, and don't know
how to drywall, but I know it's junk" crowd!

"Junk" has different contexts.

A tool can be crappily built, mis-advertised and mis-represented, and
still be narrowly useful, as many posters have shown.

There is no way the Zip I now have could withstand prolonged
industrial/trade use--proly not even much home use, for a variety of
reasons, just one of which is that half the goddamm parts are already
missing--and likely inevitably so.

No way you could re-tile a g-d bathroom with it, or peel up a kitchen
floor's worth of linoleum, or usefully sand anything but the edge of a
2x4.
iirc, the mis-infomercial spent mebbe 5%, if that, on valid ****rock
applications.

Perhaps "hustle" is a better word than "junk".
Like the drill doctor, where they claim a 1/2" bit costs $20, or a
fractional drill set $100, when decent 115 pc drill sets can be had for
$29.
Or the instant sharpening of a carbide masonry bit--give me a break. You
couldn't sharpen a masonry bit that fast even on a green wheel on a 8"
pedestal grinder.

A pedagogic note:
God Forbid that the Pubic be TAUGHT how to sharpen drill bits by hand.
Not saying the DD is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but it
is F'SURE a hustle.

Or the ""7,000 lb truck" running over an Oreck. Please.....
The back wheel of that goddamm pickup coulda run over my slippered foot
without doing much damage.
Not saying the Oreck is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but
is is F'SURE a hustle.

Sleight-of-hand is *necessarily* employed by junk vendors, vending largely
junk.

Even if said junk can be useful.

Better, as NotEnoughBrains suggested, to buy the Porter Cable, if for no
other reason, to spite the Junk Peeple.

So, the "I don't know ****, but I know it's junk" crowd can indeed not
know ****, but still be right, just on Marketing GP.

Would be interesting, tho, to survey drywall contractors, to see what they
think, and why.
Would be a hoot if ATP were correct!!

Oh, this is funnier'n'****.... I was a supervisor for a drywall
construction firm in Manhattan. :O
Didn't know **** about ****rock then, either.
Except that it was goddamm heavy.....
Thank god my house is plaster & lathe...
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

So, DO you have any recommendations for products based on your own personal
experiences and vast intellect? Or just criticism?

Steve

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote
in message ...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...
Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Ah! Another contender for the "I've never used the tool, and don't know
how to drywall, but I know it's junk" crowd!

"Junk" has different contexts.

A tool can be crappily built, mis-advertised and mis-represented, and
still be narrowly useful, as many posters have shown.

There is no way the Zip I now have could withstand prolonged
industrial/trade use--proly not even much home use, for a variety of
reasons, just one of which is that half the goddamm parts are already
missing--and likely inevitably so.

No way you could re-tile a g-d bathroom with it, or peel up a kitchen
floor's worth of linoleum, or usefully sand anything but the edge of a
2x4.
iirc, the mis-infomercial spent mebbe 5%, if that, on valid ****rock
applications.

Perhaps "hustle" is a better word than "junk".
Like the drill doctor, where they claim a 1/2" bit costs $20, or a
fractional drill set $100, when decent 115 pc drill sets can be had for
$29.
Or the instant sharpening of a carbide masonry bit--give me a break. You
couldn't sharpen a masonry bit that fast even on a green wheel on a 8"
pedestal grinder.

A pedagogic note:
God Forbid that the Pubic be TAUGHT how to sharpen drill bits by hand.
Not saying the DD is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but it
is F'SURE a hustle.

Or the ""7,000 lb truck" running over an Oreck. Please.....
The back wheel of that goddamm pickup coulda run over my slippered foot
without doing much damage.
Not saying the Oreck is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but
is is F'SURE a hustle.

Sleight-of-hand is *necessarily* employed by junk vendors, vending
largely junk.

Even if said junk can be useful.

Better, as NotEnoughBrains suggested, to buy the Porter Cable, if for no
other reason, to spite the Junk Peeple.

So, the "I don't know ****, but I know it's junk" crowd can indeed not
know ****, but still be right, just on Marketing GP.

Would be interesting, tho, to survey drywall contractors, to see what
they think, and why.
Would be a hoot if ATP were correct!!

Oh, this is funnier'n'****.... I was a supervisor for a drywall
construction firm in Manhattan. :O
Didn't know **** about ****rock then, either.
Except that it was goddamm heavy.....
Thank god my house is plaster & lathe...
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to
reply--ie, all d'numbuhs

So, DO you have any recommendations for products based on your own
personal experiences and vast intellect? Or just criticism?

Yeah, Vaseline.
You should try some.
Make sure there's no sand in it.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs




Steve

Oh yeah, *big props* to Eric. VBG
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote
in message ...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...
Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Ah! Another contender for the "I've never used the tool, and don't
know how to drywall, but I know it's junk" crowd!

"Junk" has different contexts.

A tool can be crappily built, mis-advertised and mis-represented, and
still be narrowly useful, as many posters have shown.

There is no way the Zip I now have could withstand prolonged
industrial/trade use--proly not even much home use, for a variety of
reasons, just one of which is that half the goddamm parts are already
missing--and likely inevitably so.

No way you could re-tile a g-d bathroom with it, or peel up a kitchen
floor's worth of linoleum, or usefully sand anything but the edge of a
2x4.
iirc, the mis-infomercial spent mebbe 5%, if that, on valid ****rock
applications.

Perhaps "hustle" is a better word than "junk".
Like the drill doctor, where they claim a 1/2" bit costs $20, or a
fractional drill set $100, when decent 115 pc drill sets can be had for
$29.
Or the instant sharpening of a carbide masonry bit--give me a break. You
couldn't sharpen a masonry bit that fast even on a green wheel on a 8"
pedestal grinder.

A pedagogic note:
God Forbid that the Pubic be TAUGHT how to sharpen drill bits by hand.
Not saying the DD is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but it
is F'SURE a hustle.

Or the ""7,000 lb truck" running over an Oreck. Please.....
The back wheel of that goddamm pickup coulda run over my slippered foot
without doing much damage.
Not saying the Oreck is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but
is is F'SURE a hustle.

Sleight-of-hand is *necessarily* employed by junk vendors, vending
largely junk.

Even if said junk can be useful.

Better, as NotEnoughBrains suggested, to buy the Porter Cable, if for no
other reason, to spite the Junk Peeple.

So, the "I don't know ****, but I know it's junk" crowd can indeed not
know ****, but still be right, just on Marketing GP.

Would be interesting, tho, to survey drywall contractors, to see what
they think, and why.
Would be a hoot if ATP were correct!!

Oh, this is funnier'n'****.... I was a supervisor for a drywall
construction firm in Manhattan. :O
Didn't know **** about ****rock then, either.
Except that it was goddamm heavy.....
Thank god my house is plaster & lathe...
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to
reply--ie, all d'numbuhs

So, DO you have any recommendations for products based on your own
personal experiences and vast intellect? Or just criticism?

Yeah, Vaseline.
You should try some.
Make sure there's no sand in it.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs




Steve

"Proctologically Violated©®" writes:

No way you could re-tile a g-d bathroom with it, or peel up a kitchen
floor's worth of linoleum, or usefully sand anything but the edge of a 2x4.
iirc, the mis-infomercial spent mebbe 5%, if that, on valid ****rock
applications.

Your problem is that you watch infomercials. If you didn't watch them
(and don't tell me that you didn't know at the time that they were lying
to you!) you wouldn't have unreasonable expectations of what products
can do.

Perhaps "hustle" is a better word than "junk".
Like the drill doctor, where they claim a 1/2" bit costs $20, or a
fractional drill set $100, when decent 115 pc drill sets can be had for $29.

It depends on what quality of drill bits you buy, doesn't it? If you
buy your bits at $29/set, then it doesn't make sense to spend $100 on a
Drill Doctor - but surely you could figure that out for yourself. On
the other hand, if you regularly buy expensive drill bits, it might be
worthwhile.

Also, there's the time aspect. If I dull or damage a drill, it takes
far less time to resharpen it in an in-house DD than it does to drive to
the nearest store where I can buy a new drill. That's worth something.

Or the instant sharpening of a carbide masonry bit--give me a break. You
couldn't sharpen a masonry bit that fast even on a green wheel on a 8"
pedestal grinder.

Um, have you tried it? I have. The diamond wheel in the DD removed
carbide from the bit astonishingly fast, given the light pressure and
momentary contact that I used. A green wheel is silicon carbide, which
is nowhere close to diamond in hardness. (And I have used a green wheel
to sharpen carbide lathe tools).

A pedagogic note:
God Forbid that the Pubic be TAUGHT how to sharpen drill bits by hand.
Not saying the DD is bad or junk--it may or may not be--proly is--but it is
F'SURE a hustle.

You mean that the infomercials are a hustle. Don't watch them. Feel
better now? Actually just turn off the TV entirely, you'll feel better
yet.

My own impression of the DD is that it provides a pretty decent
sharpening job with minimal skill. The 180 grit wheel is somewhat
coarse compared to whatever does the final grinding on new bits. I
could *probably* do better with lots of practice, but the DD means I
don't need to spend that time practicing just to make a dull bit usable
again.

Or the ""7,000 lb truck" running over an Oreck. Please.....

Sleight-of-hand is *necessarily* employed by junk vendors, vending largely
junk.

So change the channel already!

Dave

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...
Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Ah! Another contender for the "I've never used the tool, and don't know
how to drywall, but I know it's junk" crowd!

The "secret" to the RZ type tools is that they shove the dust INTO the
wall. You don't get a "hurricane of sheetrock dust". In fact, it's much
cleaner than sawing.

I think I've hung a few more sheets than you, Lloyd, and probably been on
quite a few more construction sites. I still have the Porter Cable router
that was used for sheetrock before the Roto-Zip came out.

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...
Personally, I don't think the hurricane of sheetrock dust is worth it.
Most drywall contractors I've seen still use a keyhole saw.

Ah! Another contender for the "I've never used the tool, and don't know
how to drywall, but I know it's junk" crowd!

The "secret" to the RZ type tools is that they shove the dust INTO the
wall. You don't get a "hurricane of sheetrock dust". In fact, it's much
cleaner than sawing.

I think I've hung a few more sheets than you, Lloyd, and probably been on
quite a few more construction sites. I still have the Porter Cable router
that was used for sheetrock before the Roto-Zip came out.

But how can this be? Someone who has hung a lot of rock knowing a lot more
than a clueless newbie? It's against the laws of Usenet denizens, I say!

Steve ;-)

"Steve B" wrote in message
...
But how can this be? Someone who has hung a lot of rock knowing a lot
more than a clueless newbie? It's against the laws of Usenet denizens, I
say!

WHO's a "clueless newbie"?

And where the hell does someone automatically get the information about how
many boards of rock I've hung in my life?

I'm "competent" in all the basic construction trades, sir. Did it for over
ten years before I realized that brain-sweat was a more effective lubricant
for my money machine than pit-sweat.

LLoyd