In article ,
Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
"Don" wrote:

AT&T promised they would run DSL to rural areas, but there is rural
and then there is technophobic. (g0.

We're only 1/4 mile from 45, west of Bean Blossom, and on a good day I can
see the wires from my house.
But they won't run them to our house.
Frustrating.

Wires aren't the problem with DSL, IIRC it is getting within a
mile of the

You an SBC customer?

To get DSL service, you have to be within 18,000 cable-feet of either a
central office (CO) or a digital subscriber line access multiplexer (DSLAM),
which is usually a green box about 18" square mounted on a pole.

"Cable-feet" refers to the length of the actual cable run, not the straight
line distance from your house to the CO or DSLAM, and cable routing can be
pretty bizarre at times.


Gary

--
Gary Heston http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

"The message should go out loud and clear that we are a tolerant country
and we will not tolerate racism in this country." Tony Blair, UK PM

Gary Heston wrote:

[....]

You an SBC customer?

as soon as we'd heard SBC had bought PacTel we Scooby Danced
all over the office with joy and much laughter. it was a case
of the good consuming the evil and the evil were soon to get a
lesson in manners. yep that was a fine day indeed.

people from different parts of america are different from one another.
the network support engineers at the SBC Network Operations Center [NOC]
in Texas were all intelligent, pleasant and good to work for where as the
network support engineers in california were evil, cacophonous and rude.
did you know it can sometimes take 4.75 times longer to deliver a software
patch to a rude customer? yep sure can.



To get DSL service, you have to be within 18,000 cable-feet of either a
central office (CO) or a digital subscriber line access multiplexer (DSLAM),
which is usually a green box about 18" square mounted on a pole.

and without pulse coded modulation [PCM] what could you get?


"Cable-feet" refers to the length of the actual cable run, not the straight
line distance from your house to the CO or DSLAM, and cable routing can be
pretty bizarre at times.

Gary

Don wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote

I have never ever received even a cent of welfare in my entire life.


Not all socialists accept stolen money.


Maybe not, but they seem to have no qualms about stealing it - for the
greater good, of course

AL

Kurt Ullman wrote:

"Don" wrote:

AT&T.
The problem is there isn't enough people around here that want broadband and
they won't run a line just for us.

AT&T promised they would run DSL to rural areas, but there is rural
and then there is technophobic. (g0.

That's a laugh. They don't even run it in some CITIES (like Pasadena, for
instance) that have AT&T "main offices".

--
Cheers, Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
As the shopper placed her groceries on the checkout stand, the
bagger asked "Paper or plastic?" "Doesn't matter," she replied,
"I'm bisackual."

In article ,
Jim wrote:
Gary Heston wrote:

[....]

You an SBC customer?

as soon as we'd heard SBC had bought PacTel we Scooby Danced
all over the office with joy and much laughter. it was a case
of the good consuming the evil and the evil were soon to get a
lesson in manners. yep that was a fine day indeed.

And now SBC is hiding behind the AT&T logo to get away from _their_
recent record of poor customer support. They've also sucked in
BellSouth, the local Baby Bell, which doesn't have the best of
histories.

people from different parts of america are different from one another.
the network support engineers at the SBC Network Operations Center [NOC]
in Texas were all intelligent, pleasant and good to work for where as the
network support engineers in california were evil, cacophonous and rude.
did you know it can sometimes take 4.75 times longer to deliver a software
patch to a rude customer? yep sure can.
[ ... ]

When I was still in corporat IT, we had to go to the regional VP level to
get some things taken care of with BellSouth. They all have their ups and
downs.


Gary

--
Gary Heston http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

"The message should go out loud and clear that we are a tolerant country
and we will not tolerate racism in this country." Tony Blair, UK PM

Gary Heston wrote:

Jim wrote:
Gary Heston wrote:

[....]

You an SBC customer?

as soon as we'd heard SBC had bought PacTel we Scooby Danced
all over the office with joy and much laughter. it was a case
of the good consuming the evil and the evil were soon to get a
lesson in manners. yep that was a fine day indeed.

And now SBC is hiding behind the AT&T logo to get away from _their_
recent record of poor customer support. They've also sucked in
BellSouth, the local Baby Bell, which doesn't have the best of
histories.

in 1984 judge Green spoke and divestiture of AT&T happened.
now AT&T seems to be recollecting their baby bells..



people from different parts of america are different from one another.
the network support engineers at the SBC Network Operations Center [NOC]
in Texas were all intelligent, pleasant and good to work for where as the
network support engineers in california were evil, cacophonous and rude.
did you know it can sometimes take 4.75 times longer to deliver a software
patch to a rude customer? yep sure can.
[ ... ]

When I was still in corporat IT, we had to go to the regional VP level to
get some things taken care of with BellSouth. They all have their ups and
downs.

other than being called in on occasion to resolve automated
messaging & accounting [AMA] issues with what they thought were
lost billing records I never had direct dealings with the bell
south account as far as implementing any of the new features or
technologies offered to their integrated business networks. there
was not a lot happening in their area back in those days.

SBC and PacTel were hot beds for meridian digital centrex. Dallas
and Los Angeles implemented enormous IBN networks. of course, you
well know all that stuff predates voice over IP.

telecommunications is one area which evolved faster than people
could actually consume by firmly grasping an understanding for
the usefulness of a new feature. I still LOL thinking about
the day we took remote call forwarding to the VP. we implemented
our code in the PBX to place a forward on his desk DN to his bag
phone and then told him to go and play golf. he had the cutest
little silly look on his tech-zero face as he said this could be
useful in the best of ways. today the same feature has been refined
so as to provide an offering allowing people to merge their residential
DN with their cell DN.

Jim wrote:
Gary Heston wrote:

And now SBC is hiding behind the AT&T logo to get away from _their_
recent record of poor customer support. They've also sucked in
BellSouth, the local Baby Bell, which doesn't have the best of
histories.

in 1984 judge Green spoke and divestiture of AT&T happened.
now AT&T seems to be recollecting their baby bells..

AT&T Corporation basically no longer exists, at least not in the
same sense it once did. In the mid-1990's, it spun off Bell Labs
and called it Lucent. It then spun off AT&T Wireless (cell phone
division). The company that remained was still AT&T (and they
still sold cable television service and long distance service,
and even local phone service in some markets), but in 2006,
SBC purchased AT&T Corp. The company now calling itself "AT&T"
is really the same company that was SBC Corp.

To put this in terms of NYSE stock symbols, T spun off two things,
then SBC bought the remaining part of T, then SBC changed its name
to 'T' since it now had the rights to use that name.

So, AT&T is not recollecting the baby bells. One of the baby
bells collected AT&T.

- Logan

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:
Gary Heston wrote:

And now SBC is hiding behind the AT&T logo to get away from _their_
recent record of poor customer support. They've also sucked in
BellSouth, the local Baby Bell, which doesn't have the best of
histories.

in 1984 judge Green spoke and divestiture of AT&T happened. now AT&T
seems to be recollecting their baby bells..

AT&T Corporation basically no longer exists, at least not in the
same sense it once did. In the mid-1990's, it spun off Bell Labs
and called it Lucent. It then spun off AT&T Wireless (cell phone
division). The company that remained was still AT&T (and they
still sold cable television service and long distance service,
and even local phone service in some markets), but in 2006,
SBC purchased AT&T Corp. The company now calling itself "AT&T"
is really the same company that was SBC Corp.

To put this in terms of NYSE stock symbols, T spun off two things,
then SBC bought the remaining part of T, then SBC changed its name
to 'T' since it now had the rights to use that name.

So, AT&T is not recollecting the baby bells. One of the baby
bells collected AT&T.

Yep- one of the surviving baby bells ate mama bell, and then ate one of its
siblings. They had all been eating each other for years. I used to have
ameritech for an ISP, until SBC ate them and the service went to hell, so I
jumped to the ATT-branded ISP. Now SBC ate that, and the service is again on
a downward slope.

I think Qwest is the only surviving intact baby bell, IIRC. Once sbc-att
eats them, we are back where we started, plus several of the larger
independents and numerous ma'n'pa carriers have also been assimilated.
Maybe the 'new' att's logo should be a be a borg cube, not that modified
deathstar?

aem sends...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Don wrote just the puerile
**** you'd expect from a desperately cowering gutless ****wit.

That post is the same as the last one.
You really are a sock puppet like everybody says you are. LOL

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Don wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I have never ever received even a cent of welfare in my entire life.

Not all socialists accept stolen money.

You wouldnt know

yawn

Move along child, your **** is weak. LOL

"Gary Heston" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
"Don" wrote:

AT&T promised they would run DSL to rural areas, but there is
rural
and then there is technophobic. (g0.

We're only 1/4 mile from 45, west of Bean Blossom, and on a good day I
can
see the wires from my house.
But they won't run them to our house.
Frustrating.

Wires aren't the problem with DSL, IIRC it is getting within a
mile of the

You an SBC customer?

To get DSL service, you have to be within 18,000 cable-feet of either a
central office (CO) or a digital subscriber line access multiplexer
(DSLAM),
which is usually a green box about 18" square mounted on a pole.

"Cable-feet" refers to the length of the actual cable run, not the
straight
line distance from your house to the CO or DSLAM, and cable routing can be
pretty bizarre at times.

Especially in Brown county, IN, where the roads often follow the old deer
paths along the creeks in the valleys. Very pretty county, but 'as the crow
flies' doesn't mean much there. Sometimes it is a five mile drive to get to
the house on the next ridge. The rich people from Indianapolis that build
new 'weekend' places on previously undeveloped land, are often shocked at
the cost of placing several additional poles to get power back to their new
house. Clusters of fancy houses 100 yards apart, and the end of a new road,
are pretty common, so they can share the utility and road plowing costs.

But having said that- ATT is also shy about the distances that they will
connect to, due to quality-of-service guarantees. Here in SW MI, they use
12,000 cable-feet, IIRC. I had to go with a more expensive 3rd-party DSL,
since ATT won't connect out here, half a mile beyond their coverage radius.
Not a reseller, someone who has there own server farm next to ATTs CO
downtown. ATT hooked up the second pair on my service drop as a dedicated
pair between me and the DSL company. Good thing I'll never need a second
voice line.

aem sends...

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:35:16 -0500, Neon John wrote:


On 2 Mar 2007 10:52:07 -0800, wrote:

On Feb 25, 5:29 pm, "Stormin Mormon" cayoung61-
wrote:
During the 2003 power cut, I found one of my major shortcomings
was air movement. The gas range did a nice job heating the
kitchen, but not any of the rest of the trailer. Since then I've
got a trolling battery, and an inverter. So that I can run some
low wattage lights, and also fans to move the heat around.

Kitchen appliances are not designed to heat houses. I hope you have a
CO detector and smoke detectors. That way, when your house burns down
you can get out safely, then stand real close to the fire to stay
warm.

OTOH, kitchen appliances are not sentenient beings and don't know what
they're heating. They'll no more burn down the house heating air than
they will heating water, roast beef, turkey, etc.

Strawman argument. Nobody has said that appliances might be sentient.
The argument is about wether or not they are designed to be used to heat
a room and they most certainly not.

It won't burn the house down, but you possibly might not live through the
night.

OTOH2, some DO produce a lot of CO. The propane range in my MH can
click off 100 PPM CO in under an hour with all three burners going.
Clearly yours has affected you judging by the quality of your post.

My previous place had a gas range, and when I had a power outage in winter
that lasted long enough for the place to get cold, I'd use that for heat. I
never left it running more than 20 minutes an hour, though, and never while
I was asleep. That place was so leaky that I doubt CO buildup was a huge
problem.

aem sends....

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 12:44:53 GMT, aemeijers wrote:
My previous place had a gas range, and when I had a power outage in winter
that lasted long enough for the place to get cold, I'd use that for heat. I
never left it running more than 20 minutes an hour, though, and never while
I was asleep. That place was so leaky that I doubt CO buildup was a huge
problem.

I don't care if you used to burn your furniture in the middle of your kitchen
floor during outtages. It still doesn't make burning natural gas without a
chimney and without tight fuel mixture regulation a good idea. You're the kind
of person we read about in the morning papers who did something similarly
incredibly stupid using the fact that they it hadn't killed them yet as proof
that it was ok.

You really should take your life more seriously. Get a motel room if you're
without heat; visit friends or family with a fireplace. Invest in some good
sleeping bag.

On 2007-03-04, AZ Nomad wrote:

I don't care if you used to burn your furniture in the middle of your kitchen
floor during outtages. It still doesn't make burning natural gas without a
chimney and without tight fuel mixture regulation a good idea. You're the kind
of person we read about in the morning papers who did something similarly
incredibly stupid using the fact that they it hadn't killed them yet as proof
that it was ok.

So why aren't we reading about hundreds of people dying on Thanksgiving
from carbon monoxide poisoning because they roasted their turkeys in gas
ranges for many hours? Do you think all these gas ranges have chimneys?

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com

In reference to an earlier branch of this thread, I looked at the
sized and prices of generator/welder combinations, and came across
this interesting pricing situation:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=46704

4000 watt, 140A welder, 9hp engine--$999.99

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/Campbell-Hausfel...QQcmdZViewItem

The exact same model; the text description virtually word-for-word the
same as at Harbor Freight, starting bid $1299.99.

I wonder if the seller is simply placing orders at Harbor Freight for
delivery to the bidders address...

Aside from looking at that one, there's a Lincoln Electric model from
Home Depot:

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...z ip_code.jsp

However, I've about decided that it'd be more flexible to buy a generator
in the 5KW - 5.5KW range and a separate welder. I don't see any of the
genwelders mention being able to use utility power for welding; with
separate units, you can weld without running the generator. The price can
work out to be cheaper, too.


Gary

--
Gary Heston http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

"The message should go out loud and clear that we are a tolerant country
and we will not tolerate racism in this country." Tony Blair, UK PM

Don wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Don wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I have never ever received even a cent of welfare in my entire
life.

Not all socialists accept stolen money.

You wouldnt know

yawn

Move along child, your **** is weak. LOL

Thanks for running up that white flag, ****wit.

Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Don wrote just the puerile
**** you'd expect from a desperately cowering gutless ****wit.

Rod Speed wrote:
Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Don wrote just the puerile
**** you'd expect from a desperately cowering gutless ****wit.



Another admitted defeat from welfare boy.

Rod Speed wrote:
Don wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Don wrote
Rod Speed wrote
I have never ever received even a cent of welfare in my entire
life.
Not all socialists accept stolen money.
You wouldnt know
yawn

Move along child, your **** is weak. LOL

Thanks for running up that white flag, ****wit.


The white flag is whenever you curse as a substitute for facts.
The only time you were not on welfare was that fast food job you were
fired from three hours after starting

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 14:47:29 GMT, AZ Nomad
wrote:


I don't care if you used to burn your furniture in the middle of your kitchen
floor during outtages. It still doesn't make burning natural gas without a
chimney and without tight fuel mixture regulation a good idea. You're the kind
of person we read about in the morning papers who did something similarly
incredibly stupid using the fact that they it hadn't killed them yet as proof
that it was ok.

You really should take your life more seriously. Get a motel room if you're
without heat; visit friends or family with a fireplace. Invest in some good
sleeping bag.

Wow, a gen-u-whine card-carrying USDA-Prime *sshole. Don't see many
of those anymore now that the garden variety has taken over.

I'm curious Mr. 'hole. If burning natural gas (and propane I assume)
without a chimney is such a bad idea they why are there so many gas
stoves, unvented heaters, catalytic heaters and gas mantle lights out
there, all operating without problems? Tell me that, o' sayer of
sooth.

Oh wait. Captain Obvious has arrived with the answer. These devices
are DESIGNED to be used indoors without a chimney. They work fine.
Thank you, Capt'n...

A few years ago there would still be some uncertainty involved but
these days one can know for sure that an appliance is operating
properly. One need simply spend (not "invest") less than $50 on a
good digital readout CO detector such as a NightHawk.

Having done so 3 times (house, motor home, semi truck cab) I know that
my motorhome's propane stove makes enough CO to be dangerous even
though it is "properly regulated". I know that my catalytic heaters
and my ceramic surface burner heaters (Mr Heater Buddy and Detroit
Radiant Heat) emit zero CO within the limits of detection. (I
actually know that they emit 0.00 PPM CO, the limit of detection of my
fairly expensive industrial detector but that's another story) The
residential CO detector is something even a card carrier like you can
partake of. Of course, it's easier just to come here and wet yer
panties in public than it is to do it right.

Note to other mobile people: The rectangular NightHawk with the
digital readout near the top and the "N" cutout over the horn can be
easily operated on 12 volts DC. Simply remove the built-in Wall Wart
transformer, cut the cord and connect to 12 volts. The wart outputs
around 9 volts AC. This hits a bridge rectifier on the detector board
and then a voltage regulator. 12 volts DC (polarity doesn't matter)
works perfectly.

I've had one connected like that in my motorhome for 5 years and
another in my semi truck for the several months I've had it. Much
more reliable and MUCH less power draw than an RV-type CO detector.

I have NOT looked at the newer round model but I need to since Sam's
Club has quit carrying the rectangular one and that's the only place I
knew that sold it for $39 instead of around $50.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:30:24 -0000, (Gary Heston)
wrote:


However, I've about decided that it'd be more flexible to buy a generator
in the 5KW - 5.5KW range and a separate welder. I don't see any of the
genwelders mention being able to use utility power for welding; with
separate units, you can weld without running the generator. The price can
work out to be cheaper, too.

Just a word of experience. Some generators don't play well with
welders. I had a very nice Yamaha 5kw and have a Generac 8kw and
neither play well. The Yamaha would burn out its voltage regulator
rapidly. After repairing it a couple of times I re-designed it to
make it last. The Generac de-excites for a moment (the arc goes off)
and then it comes back up.

In both cases, the problem is the very rapidly and widely varying
current draw. The Yamaha's voltage regulator tried to keep up and
ended up burning out its pass transistor. I redesigned the regulator
with a heavier pass transistor and a switchable long time constant
filter in the input. That kept the regulator alive but the resulting
poor regulation didn't make for very good welding. One could make a
weld that would hold but it wasn't pretty.

The Generac, even though it has more than enough capacity, simply
can't be used. The output shuts down moments after the arc is struck.
I'm sure it's a similar problem but I've not had a chance to look at
it.

I have a homemade 10KW diesel generator that uses one of those cheap
Italian aluminum framed alternators that Harbor Freight and Northern
sell. It's "harmonically regulated". That is, the stator has an aux
winding that is resonated to the 3rd harmonic by a capacitor. The
field rotor is nothing more than a 2 pole electromagnet with a diode
across the ends. The rotor forms the secondary of a transformer at
the 3rd harmonic and the diode half-wave rectifies it to excite the
field. Fairly new architecture - the patents date to the 70s.

Anyway, this unit works fairly well for stick welding but very poorly
for MIG. Regulation is inherent in the design and does not rely on
electronics. The problem with MIG is that the MIG welder depends on
there being great surge current available from the line to blow the
bridge each time the wire shorts to the work. The utility supplies
that but a small generator can't. My rather high end Miller contains
some storage capacitors to reduce the surge draw but it's still there.
I can weld with this generator and MIG but it is rough and unstable
and the weld looks messy. I consider it emergency use only.

If you have much welding at all to do I suggest getting the
combination welder/generator. Those are designed primarily for
welding with the 120 vac output thrown in for good measure.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Don wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Don wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I have never ever received even a cent of welfare in my entire
life.

Not all socialists accept stolen money.

You wouldnt know

yawn

Move along child, your **** is weak. LOL

Thanks for running up that white flag, ****wit.

This is the part where I start treating you like the whiney little gurl
you're acting like.
I'll just ignore you.
Keep on whining and I'll send you to bed without supper. LOL

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Don wrote just the puerile
**** you'd expect from a desperately cowering gutless ****wit.

No supper for you.
Now go to bed little gurl and cry yourself to sleep. LOL

Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Don wrote just the puerile
**** you'd expect from a desperately cowering gutless ****wit.

Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Don wrote just the puerile
**** you'd expect from a desperately cowering gutless ****wit.

"Neon John" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 14:47:29 GMT, AZ Nomad
wrote:


I don't care if you used to burn your furniture in the middle of your
kitchen
floor during outtages. It still doesn't make burning natural gas without
a
chimney and without tight fuel mixture regulation a good idea. You're the
kind
of person we read about in the morning papers who did something similarly
incredibly stupid using the fact that they it hadn't killed them yet as
proof
that it was ok.

You really should take your life more seriously. Get a motel room if
you're
without heat; visit friends or family with a fireplace. Invest in some
good
sleeping bag.

Wow, a gen-u-whine card-carrying USDA-Prime *sshole. Don't see many
of those anymore now that the garden variety has taken over.

I'm curious Mr. 'hole. If burning natural gas (and propane I assume)
without a chimney is such a bad idea they why are there so many gas
stoves, unvented heaters, catalytic heaters and gas mantle lights out
there, all operating without problems? Tell me that, o' sayer of
sooth.

Oh wait. Captain Obvious has arrived with the answer. These devices
are DESIGNED to be used indoors without a chimney. They work fine.
Thank you, Capt'n...

Thank you for saving me the trouble. Despite AZ Nomad's lecture, I wasn't
worried at the time, and would not be worried about it now. This is the same
gas range I COOKED on, and that never killed me. Nor did I leave it running
for hours, or running while out of the room or asleep. Heat a pot of water,
and turn it off till the water got cold again. Yes, I did sleep in a
sleeping bag and long johns on those occasions.

aem sends...

I've heard that Coleman fuel stoves pump out carbon monoxide, and
should not be used indoors. Propane is a concern, but less so.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Gordon" wrote in message
. ..
: Jonathan Grobe wrote in
: :
:
: We just had a ice storm and I had no electricity for 22
hours. I
: was mostly unprepared and didn't like the experience at all.
:
: What are you doing to prepare for this?
:
: Thanks.
:
:
: Usually nothing. But this winter we have already had two
outages.
: The first was due to high winds bringing down the lines. THe
second
: was due to a car bringing down a power pole.
:
: The first one I was ready for. When i heard the forcast for
high winds
: I hung the camping lantern from the hook in the living room
celing and
: made sure the camp stove was fueled up. We filled the freezer
with ice
: packs. When the power went out, my wife transfered the ice
packs and
: some food into the cooler. Big supprise was finding out that
the gas
: fireplace didn't have an emergency bypass. I have now have an
inverter
: and can run the fire place off a battery if necessary.

I just don't know what we'd do without acronyms. KWIM?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Neon John" wrote in message
...
: On 2 Mar 2007 10:52:07 -0800, wrote:
:
: On Feb 25, 5:29 pm, "Stormin Mormon" cayoung61-
: wrote:
: During the 2003 power cut, I found one of my major
shortcomings
: was air movement. The gas range did a nice job heating the
: kitchen, but not any of the rest of the trailer. Since then
I've
: got a trolling battery, and an inverter. So that I can run
some
: low wattage lights, and also fans to move the heat around.
:
: Kitchen appliances are not designed to heat houses. I hope
you have a
: CO detector and smoke detectors. That way, when your house
burns down
: you can get out safely, then stand real close to the fire to
stay
: warm.
:
: OTOH, kitchen appliances are not sentenient beings and don't
know what
: they're heating. They'll no more burn down the house heating
air than
: they will heating water, roast beef, turkey, etc.
:
: OTOH2, some DO produce a lot of CO. The propane range in my MH
can
: click off 100 PPM CO in under an hour with all three burners
going.
:
: ---
: John De Armond
: See my website for my current email address
: http://www.neon-john.com
: Cleveland, Occupied TN
: Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark
Twain

"William Souden" wrote in message
news
Rod Speed wrote:
Don wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Don wrote
Rod Speed wrote
I have never ever received even a cent of welfare in my entire
life.
Not all socialists accept stolen money.
You wouldnt know
yawn

Move along child, your **** is weak. LOL

Thanks for running up that white flag, ****wit.
The white flag is whenever you curse as a substitute for facts.
The only time you were not on welfare was that fast food job you were
fired from three hours after starting

Why do you guys even bother responding to him? People like him are what kill
files were invented for. No fuss, no muss, and the rest of us don't have to
wade through your responses. Once in a while he tries rotating from
addresses, until his ISP cracks down on that, but it usually only takes 3 or
4 posts to recognize him.

aem sends...

Tryptophan. They just *LOOK* dead.

Which, incidentally, has been my argument for ages. Why no
Thanksgiving deaths? Incidentally, anyone got a link to an online
article about someone killing himself with CO from a stove during
a power cut?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Jonathan Grobe" wrote in message
...
: On 2007-03-04, AZ Nomad wrote:
:
: I don't care if you used to burn your furniture in the middle
of your kitchen
: floor during outtages. It still doesn't make burning natural
gas without a
: chimney and without tight fuel mixture regulation a good
idea. You're the kind
: of person we read about in the morning papers who did
something similarly
: incredibly stupid using the fact that they it hadn't killed
them yet as proof
: that it was ok.
:
: So why aren't we reading about hundreds of people dying on
Thanksgiving
: from carbon monoxide poisoning because they roasted their
turkeys in gas
: ranges for many hours? Do you think all these gas ranges have
chimneys?
:
: --
: Jonathan Grobe Books
: Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
: http://www.grobebooks.com
:

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

Tryptophan. They just *LOOK* dead.

Which, incidentally, has been my argument for ages. Why no
Thanksgiving deaths? Incidentally, anyone got a link to an online
article about someone killing himself with CO from a stove during
a power cut?

Must be fuel-burning so that would automatically rule out electrical
heat. You get gas furnace deaths from CO all the time, so the
possibility of that would at least exist from gas stoves.

An interesting general article is at
http://www.healthyindoorair.org/October_CO.htm
They do specifically state in PSA #2 that gas stoves should be looked
at to make sure venting isn't blocked (probably the main reason people
don't fall like flies on T-giving is that the overwhelming majority
actually work properly).

The CDC did a review of non-fatal CO poisoning in the US and they did
find some (4.9%) of these related to gas-stoves and ranges. So if they
were bad enough to come to the hospital ED, they could be bad enough to
croak, it is just that the study wasn't looking at that.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5402a2.htm

Short answer appears to yes it is probably possible.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Tryptophan. They just *LOOK* dead.

Which, incidentally, has been my argument for ages. Why no
Thanksgiving deaths? Incidentally, anyone got a link to an online
article about someone killing himself with CO from a stove during
a power cut?

Natural gas indoor ovens and ranges are set so that there is plenty of
oxygen to combine with the natural gas for full combustion.

If you switch to propane, more oxygen is required so you have to adjust
your appliances so that they don't produce carbon monoxide.

Similarly, you can usually get by with slow burning kerosene lanterns.

Other fuels, like the white gas Coleman stoves simply can't be adjusted
for full combustion. Some outdoor propane stoves are not adjusted for
indoor usage. To find out which are not, try it. If you end up dead, you
have the wrong stove. :-)

Stormin Mormon wrote:

I've heard that Coleman fuel stoves pump out
carbon monoxide, and should not be used indoors.

You heard wrong.

Propane is a concern, but less so.

Both are fine.


"Gordon" wrote in message
. ..
Jonathan Grobe wrote in
:

We just had a ice storm and I had no electricity for 22 hours. I
was mostly unprepared and didn't like the experience at all.

What are you doing to prepare for this?

Thanks.


Usually nothing. But this winter we have already had two outages.
The first was due to high winds bringing down the lines. THe second
was due to a car bringing down a power pole.

The first one I was ready for. When i heard the forcast for high
winds I hung the camping lantern from the hook in the living room
celing and made sure the camp stove was fueled up. We filled the
freezer with ice packs. When the power went out, my wife transfered
the ice packs and some food into the cooler. Big supprise was
finding out that the gas fireplace didn't have an emergency bypass.
I have now have an inverter and can run the fire place off a battery
if necessary.

" wrote in
:




Natural gas indoor ovens and ranges are set so that there is plenty of
oxygen to combine with the natural gas for full combustion.

If you switch to propane, more oxygen is required so you have to adjust
your appliances so that they don't produce carbon monoxide.

Similarly, you can usually get by with slow burning kerosene lanterns.

Other fuels, like the white gas Coleman stoves simply can't be adjusted
for full combustion. Some outdoor propane stoves are not adjusted for
indoor usage. To find out which are not, try it. If you end up dead, you
have the wrong stove. :-)


Or you could have a CO alarm handy to alert you there are high CO levels.
Then you don't have to die.

Besides,if you die,you won't be able to post the results of your test. B-)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

I sure wouldn't worry about indoor use of propane campstoves - as
propane's already daily used as the "gas" stove fuel in countless
rural areas. Only real worry with using a propane campstove indoors
is not putting the propane cylinder where it could be heated by a
burner on the regular stove if the power came on!

No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com

In article

,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

They do specifically state in PSA #2 that gas stoves should be looked
at to make sure venting isn't blocked (probably the main reason people
don't fall like flies on T-giving is that the overwhelming majority
actually work properly).

I have used an unvented propane stove in my kitchen for 30 years with no
trouble, and my CO detector shows no CO
Committees of Correspondence Web page:- tinyurl.com/y7th2c

In article ,
Nick Hull wrote:

In article

,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

They do specifically state in PSA #2 that gas stoves should be looked
at to make sure venting isn't blocked (probably the main reason people
don't fall like flies on T-giving is that the overwhelming majority
actually work properly).

I have used an unvented propane stove in my kitchen for 30 years with no
trouble, and my CO detector shows no CO
Committees of Correspondence Web page:- tinyurl.com/y7th2c

You might want to take that up with EPA or whoever wrote the PSA..

On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 19:27:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:


Tryptophan. They just *LOOK* dead.

Which, incidentally, has been my argument for ages. Why no
Thanksgiving deaths? Incidentally, anyone got a link to an online

There's an invention called the thermostat. A closed oven operating normally
will only be on a fraction of the time. A room that isn't perfectly sealed
will have enough ventalization.

But, feel free to stick your head in the oven and turn on the gas, given how
little you value your life. Hopefully if you don't give a ****, nobody
else will.

I guess I am luckier than most in this regard as due to the fact I
live in the bush in British Columbia, Canada. We tend to get alot of
power outages, especially this year. If we lived 5 more miles out, we
would have to be off-grid as there is no power or telephone past that
point (no cell phone service ANYWHERE, even here) in the area.

We do not even blink an eye anymore unless we have baby chicks which
require heat, when the power leaves us for up to days at a time. The
last time it happened I was just about to put a HUGE roaster pan of
lasagna into the electric oven and BLIP.. the lights went out.. and so
did the electric oven. It took me about 10 seconds to walk the roaster
pan to the woodstove, put a spacer on it and then cook the lasagna for
about 2 hours more than the oven would have been and it was the best
lasagna I have ever had.

Freezers are not a huge concern, due to where we live and where the
freezers are located. Just the inside refrigerator is the problem due
to the heat from the woodstove. We put the refrigerator contents in 3
cardboard boxes on the front porch and let them just almost freeze and
then put them back in the fridge. Winter is about 7-8 months here, so
heat generally is not an issue outside, just coyote and fox this time
of the year. I am sure they would just love to raid the cardboard
boxes. In the summer, the freezers are getting low so there is not
much meat in there until fall when we butcher and we do not tend to
get many power outages in the summer months.

I have 3 oil lamps. One is for the livingroom for reading, one for the
kitchen and one as a spare. We keep several gallons of lamp oil (but
not in the house, we keep it in the shoppe or the root cellar).

Water is not hugely a problem either as we have a 36 handdug well we
can run clean 5 gallon buckets into. We are looking for a frost free
hand pump for it. This is the original well and the new one is 120 ft,
but it is not hooked up until later this spring. We had up to 3 other
families who were going to come up and stay with us, as they could not
manage at their homes without any electic. We just told them to bring
water and bedding if they came up.

So other than the kids not watching movies or playing electric guitars
or PS2's, it is pretty normal around here. We have woodheat as our
only heat anyway, our cooking source as the same, light from wind up
flashlights and oil lamps, we have a wind up radio with SW I & II as
well as FM/AM, we have water.. We play card or board games, get in
more reading we have been trying to work on, get a great concert by
the teenager on the acoustic guitar.. life is good.

tenzicut
http://www.downtotherootsmagazine.com

On 2007-03-05, wrote:
So other than the kids not watching movies or playing electric guitars
or PS2's, it is pretty normal around here. We have woodheat as our
only heat anyway, our cooking source as the same, light from wind up
flashlights and oil lamps, we have a wind up radio with SW I & II as
well as FM/AM, we have water.. We play card or board games, get in
more reading we have been trying to work on, get a great concert by
the teenager on the acoustic guitar.. life is good.

How are you doing internet access?

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com