Finding the keyboard operational
Bob entered:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com,
"Father Haskell" wrote:

wrote:

Why would you want to?

Better contact and less electrical resistance.

Can you explain how solder between two copper wires provides a lower
resistance connection than direct contact between the wires?

More surface contact? Electrons tend to flow on the surface of a wire
more so than in the center for some reason or another.

I always thought the reason for not soldering was after-the-fact heat.
Depending on the lead/tin ratio of the solder, it can have different
melting points. If a soldered wire heats due to a heavy load, it may
be hot enough to break the solder joint if the solder used had a low
melting point. Just what I was taught.

Bob

Surface effect at 60Hz is not a factor.
I also heard that the reason that power joints are not soldered is the
possibility of failure due to heating.
Bob

--�
--�
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Finding the keyboard operational
entered:

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:24:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

Can you explain how solder between two copper wires provides a lower
resistance connection than direct contact between the wires?

The lead seals it up and prevents corrosion. That is not usually an
issue unless you live at the beach or you are putting this
underground.

Anecdotally, the solder joint is gas tight (or more gas tight) then a
wirenut.
Bob
--�
--�
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Finding the keyboard operational
entered:

Tony Hwang wrote:

Skin effect is dominant on RF range. 60Hz is not RF. Is it?
We use pipe instead of solid wire on RF application.

Skin effect is also a consideration for lightning protection. That's
why down conductors are a web of fine braids. And your guess of what
Hz lightning is is as good as mine.

I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I know that I
have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning wol be considered DC.
Bob

--�
--�
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

wrote:
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 23:37:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 02:51:03 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:


Hmmm,
What about physical strength, flexibility. Stiff solder joint may crack
and break.


That is why the code says the joint must be mechanically secure before
you solder it. If you make a Western Union splice and solder it you
have a joint stronger than the wire.

What is a Western Union splice?

hmmm, guess your Google machine is broken....

http://tpub.com/content/neets/14176/css/14176_46.htm

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:51:09 -0500, "John Gilmer"
wrote:



Hi,
Actually it was friction tape first and rubber tape over it.

Nope!


Tony is correct. Friction tape first and then rubber tape.

CWM

Sorry, but you are BOTH wrong.

Just to check my memory, I "googled."

Turns out the "rubber tape" is only partly cured. When it is applied you
remove a release strip and it effectively becomes a lump of rubber.

The "Friction Tape" is cotton with rubber.

I will not argue this further. If you are convinced you are correct, so be
it.

The Other Funk wrote:

I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I know that I
have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning wol be considered DC.
Bob

It may have looked like solid wire from a distance, but if installed
correctly it should have been 24 -36 strand twisted or braided. Almost
all installations require that, or an equivalent.

See: http://www.tlpinc.com/Class1design/cooperconduct.htm

In article . com, "Bob" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, "Father
Haskell" wrote:

wrote:

Why would you want to?

Better contact and less electrical resistance.

Can you explain how solder between two copper wires provides a lower
resistance connection than direct contact between the wires?

More surface contact? Electrons tend to flow on the surface of a wire
more so than in the center for some reason or another.

Not at only 60 Hz in residential wiring, they don't. The skin depth at 60Hz is
somewhere around 7 mm, IIRC, so a wire has to be more than a half inch in
diameter before there's any skin effect at all at 60Hz.

I always thought the reason for not soldering was after-the-fact heat.
Depending on the lead/tin ratio of the solder, it can have different
melting points.

Well, yes, but the melting point of tin/lead solder is at *minimum* 361
degrees F
http://store.whittemoredurgin.com/7800solderq.html

If a soldered wire heats due to a heavy load, it may
be hot enough to break the solder joint if the solder used had a low
melting point. Just what I was taught.

If your wires get within a hundred degrees of melting the solder, you have far
bigger problems than the solder...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I always thought the reason for not soldering was after-the-fact heat.

If you know how to solder, heat should not be a factor. Or you could use
heat sinks. With that said I do screw up with too much heat on occasions.

Depending on the lead/tin ratio of the solder, it can have different
melting points.

I always used 60/40 (60 for tin) electrical solder with rosin core. Melting
temperature around 440°F.

If a soldered wire heats due to a heavy load, it may
be hot enough to break the solder joint if the solder used had a low
melting point. Just what I was taught.


Have not seen solder melt under normal conditions. If the electrical load is
that heavy I would think your wires are under sized.



Bob

In article xFvjh.2182$Lc5.1349@trndny04, "The Other Funk" wrote:
Finding the keyboard operational
entered:

Skin effect is also a consideration for lightning protection. That's
why down conductors are a web of fine braids. And your guess of what
Hz lightning is is as good as mine.

I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I know that I
have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning wol be considered DC.

Lightning is static electricity. Static charges reside on the surface.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Tony Hwang wrote:

Skin effect is dominant on RF range. 60Hz is not RF. Is it?
We use pipe instead of solid wire on RF application.

Skin effect is also a consideration for lightning protection. That's
why down conductors are a web of fine braids. And your guess of what
Hz lightning is is as good as mine.


I've seen published lighting frequency values in various sources. I use to
have those numbers in my head but I'm getting old and forgetful. Anyway, its
extremely high and with an extremely high wavefront to match.

Ok, I had to look in up in an old book (Donald Beeman, Editor, 1955) but
newer data should be available: One billion volts (yes, that's billion),
200,000A with voltage rise from 1 to 10 microseconds.

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 02:53:44 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:

Bob wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article . com, "Father Haskell" wrote:

wrote:

Why would you want to?

Better contact and less electrical resistance.

Can you explain how solder between two copper wires provides a lower
resistance connection than direct contact between the wires?


More surface contact? Electrons tend to flow on the surface of a wire
more so than in the center for some reason or another.

Hmmm,
Skin effect is dominant on RF range. 60Hz is not RF. Is it?
We use pipe instead of solid wire on RF application.

I think you'd have to go above the audio range (above 20KHz) before
it'd be considered RF.

Doug Miller wrote:
I always thought the reason for not soldering was after-the-fact heat.
Depending on the lead/tin ratio of the solder, it can have different
melting points.

Well, yes, but the melting point of tin/lead solder is at *minimum* 361
degrees F
http://store.whittemoredurgin.com/7800solderq.html

If a soldered wire heats due to a heavy load, it may
be hot enough to break the solder joint if the solder used had a low
melting point. Just what I was taught.

If your wires get within a hundred degrees of melting the solder, you have far
bigger problems than the solder...

I've seen many times in older wiring where the insulation was charred
6-8 inches back from a joint. Must have been a good amount of heat to
do that. If not enough to melt solder, repeated heating/cooling would
probably affect the solder enough to form a cold joint.

In article . com, "Bob" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
If your wires get within a hundred degrees of melting the solder, you have far
bigger problems than the solder...

I've seen many times in older wiring where the insulation was charred
6-8 inches back from a joint. Must have been a good amount of heat to
do that. If not enough to melt solder, repeated heating/cooling would
probably affect the solder enough to form a cold joint.

Older wiring = 60 deg C insulation at best. That's 180F -- nearly two hundred
degrees below the minimum melting point of tin/lead solder.

I repeat: if your wires get within a hundred degrees of melting the solder,
you have far bigger problems than the solder.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

If you were to just lay 2 wires next to each other, the area of
contact would be very small, just the tangential area. Twisting the
wires together will increase the area but soldering will provide the
most.

If you lay two solid wires next to each other parallel and in contact you
have two cylindrical shapes whose contact point is a single line. In the
real world, given malleable materials pressed together the metal will
deform microscopically and the line becomes a tiny bit wider than just the
infinitessimally thin line of pure geometry. I don't think that twisting
the wires changes this. Now the two cylinders take on a spiral shape as
does the line of contact but it's still just a line. The twist provides
the pressure only. Solder properly applied (sufficient heat) is going to
vastly increase the conductive contact between the wires.

Properly done the direct copper to copper contact should still be there as
well as the good mechanical tightness from the twist. The solder would
only add conductivity as well as prevent the twist from loosening.

No one has suggested using wire nuts AND solder. Make a good twist
connection with a wire nut, carefully unscrew it without loosening the
twisted wires, apply solder with good heat and just enough to flow into the
twists and not enlarge the overall joint, then put the wirenut back on
(should still grip the same) and put on the usual precautionary electrical
tape over the wire nut. A joint like that should last the ages. I once
used this technique for a junction box that was going to become fairly
inaccessible. Wire nuts alone would have been fine but, at least to me,
this was added peace of mind.

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:38:17 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:59:35 -0600, wrote:

What is a Western Union splice?


The top one
http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/splices.jpg

And the bottom one is? I can't Goog that picture (G).


--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

Many years ago, when computers were
room-sized, and consumed megawatts of power,
I was on the wiring installation team.

We used 4/0 cable, and all connections
were made with copper squeeze clamps.
( then wrapped with fish-tape and cloth as I remember )

When we asked about soldering the connections,
the power engineer gurus claimed that
lab tests proved best connections were
copper-to-copper compression.

Of course we're talking controlled environment.
No humidity, water, salt, etc.
rj

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:20:48 GMT, Steve Kraus
wrote:

No one has suggested using wire nuts AND solder. Make a good twist
connection with a wire nut, carefully unscrew it without loosening the
twisted wires, apply solder with good heat and just enough to flow into the
twists and not enlarge the overall joint, then put the wirenut back on
(should still grip the same) and put on the usual precautionary electrical
tape over the wire nut. A joint like that should last the ages. I once
used this technique for a junction box that was going to become fairly
inaccessible. Wire nuts alone would have been fine but, at least to me,
this was added peace of mind.

I've done exactly this, but often wondering if what I did in a pinch
was *okay*. After 17 years that house is still standing. I've asked
myself now and then if what I did was correct. At that time *code* was
not on my mind. This thread makes me even have more piece of mind.
Solder is not necessarily wrong.



--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

wrote:

And the bottom one is? I can't Goog that picture (G).

Tap splice

What, no rat-tail?

In article , Oren wrote:

I've done exactly this, but often wondering if what I did in a pinch
was *okay*. After 17 years that house is still standing. I've asked
myself now and then if what I did was correct. At that time *code* was
not on my mind. This thread makes me even have more piece of mind.
Solder is not necessarily wrong.

Nobody ever said it was wrong -- just pointless. Code requires soldered
splices to be both mechanically and electrically secure without the solder. So
what's the use?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Pop` wrote:

Actually, no, a Weller would be a poor choice that that application. The
heat transfer is too slow and would create the aforementioned problems.

Not if you tin the wires first.

# Fred # wrote:

I always thought the reason for not soldering was after-the-fact heat.

If you know how to solder, heat should not be a factor. Or you could use
heat sinks. With that said I do screw up with too much heat on occasions.

Depending on the lead/tin ratio of the solder, it can have different
melting points.

I always used 60/40 (60 for tin) electrical solder with rosin core. Melting
temperature around 440°F.

What's the mp for 63/37 eutectic?


If a soldered wire heats due to a heavy load, it may
be hot enough to break the solder joint if the solder used had a low
melting point. Just what I was taught.


Have not seen solder melt under normal conditions. If the electrical load is
that heavy I would think your wires are under sized.



Bob

Nobody ever said it was wrong -- just pointless. Code requires
soldered splices to be both mechanically and electrically secure
without the solder. So what's the use?

I remember when I assisted installing projection & sound gear at a theatre
in Elgin, IL I noticed an electrician soldering connections and asked about
it. He said the code there required it commercial facilities. I can't
recall if he was wire nutting after soldering but probably. The added
comfort level induced in me by twist + solder would be more than wiped out
if they were only going to be wrapped in tape but with wire nuts I would
think it's unsurpassed as a safe and reliable connection.

I don't ordinarily solder wire-nuted connections, only under special
circumstances. But FWIW I do like to solder crimped-on spades, eyelets,
etc. too, just for added reliability, too. Largely overkill I know.

Now are you talking about audio visual connections OR electrical
connections? It is imperative that audio visual connections be soldered for
a quality job.

--
Steve Barker



"Steve Kraus" wrote in message
nk.net...
Nobody ever said it was wrong -- just pointless. Code requires
soldered splices to be both mechanically and electrically secure
without the solder. So what's the use?

I remember when I assisted installing projection & sound gear at a theatre
in Elgin, IL I noticed an electrician soldering connections and asked
about
it. He said the code there required it commercial facilities. I can't
recall if he was wire nutting after soldering but probably. The added
comfort level induced in me by twist + solder would be more than wiped out
if they were only going to be wrapped in tape but with wire nuts I would
think it's unsurpassed as a safe and reliable connection.

I don't ordinarily solder wire-nuted connections, only under special
circumstances. But FWIW I do like to solder crimped-on spades, eyelets,
etc. too, just for added reliability, too. Largely overkill I know.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Oren
wrote:

I've done exactly this, but often wondering if what I did in a pinch
was *okay*. After 17 years that house is still standing. I've asked
myself now and then if what I did was correct. At that time *code*
was not on my mind. This thread makes me even have more piece of
mind. Solder is not necessarily wrong.

Nobody ever said it was wrong -- just pointless. Code requires
soldered
splices to be both mechanically and electrically secure without the
solder. So
what's the use?

The "use" is, the mechanical connection does NOT necessarily imply a good
electrical connection. The mechanical connection simply stops the wires
from being physically separated and coming into contact with something else.
Which is important in the overall scheme of things.

Pop`

Father Haskell wrote:
Pop` wrote:

Actually, no, a Weller would be a poor choice that that application.
The heat transfer is too slow and would create the aforementioned
problems.

Not if you tin the wires first.

Still wrong, I'm afraid. It helps but won't alleviate the problems.

"The Other Funk" wrote:

I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I know that I
have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning wol be considered DC.

Lightening is definitely AC, with frequency components up into the
hundreds of megahertz.

As someone else mentioned, it's static electricity, but it's also a
big electrical spark, with a very fast rise time. That fast rise time
is what generates the high frequency components. The high-frequency
nature is what calls for consideration of more than just the current
flow when designing lightning protection.

The voltage drop across a conductor carrying AC depends on its
inductance as well as its resistance. A #10 wire will carry the
current of a typical lightning bolt without fusing (note I said
typical - that means maybe 10,000 amps. for several microseconds. The
occasional superbolts with many times that current for a longer
duration would need a much bigger wire.) But a #10 wire has a fair
amount of inductance at RF frequencies where lightning has significant
energy, and thus there will be a higher voltage drop because of the
inductance. To get a lower inductance for a given cross-sectional
area, strap conductors are used. The way the conductors are routed
also is important. A sharp bend has more inductance than a gradual
one, a straight wire even less.

Lightning protection is an interesting subject. Good protection is
possible, but it requires attention to lots of details. If you forget
even one and suffer a hit, the lightning will find the weak spot,
guaranteed.


Roger Grady
To reply by email, remove "qlfit." from address

spake thus:

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:54:56 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

spake thus:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:34:10 GMT, "Pop`"
wrote:

Kind of silly I suppose, but I was just wondering:

1. Does code allow soldering for residential wiring where you live?
2. Where do you live?

Please, I'm not trying to start a debate over the science/physics/howto's of
soldering or its relative pros/cons.

Why would you want to?
Too much work when a wirenut works fine. And you'd need about 500 to
1000 watts of soldering iron to solder a bundle of 4 or 5 #12 wires.

Bull****.

I could do it easily with my 35-watt soldering iron (which cost me
exactly $1 in one of those everything-made-in-China dollar stores).

Ok wiseguy. PROVE IT.
Take your camcorder, start by showing the wattage label on the
soldering iron, and the kind of solder you have (roll label). Then
make a movie of yourself doing it, and upload the movie. I bet you
wont be able to do even two #12 wires, and there is no way you can do
five.

OK, in a moment of extreme boredom last night, I took you up on your
challenge. Here are the results.

Two wires: no problemo.

I was able to solder 3 #12s together. That seems to be about the limit
for my little iron.

The joints all came out mechanically and electrically solid. Solder
flowed over all surfaces. No "cold" joints. I used my Radio Shack
"capellini" (fine) rosin-core 60/40 solder.

I'm not saying this is the ideal tool (turns out it's a 30-watt iron). I
wouldn't choose to use it for this type of work. The joints took a
minute or two to make. But my point is made: it doesn't take a honking
500-watt soldering iron, or a gun hooked up to a Lincoln generator, to
make good joints with big copper wires.

Sorry, don't have a camcorder. You'll have to take my word for it.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Pop` spake thus:

Father Haskell wrote:

Pop` wrote:

Actually, no, a Weller would be a poor choice that that application.
The heat transfer is too slow and would create the aforementioned
problems.

Not if you tin the wires first.

Still wrong, I'm afraid. It helps but won't alleviate the problems.

Then explain how I was able to solder *three* #12 wires with just my
little 30-watt soldering iron. Did it just last night. Of course, I made
sure the tip was clean (using my trusty damp sponge in a tray), and
tinned the tip well before soldering. That's the key: if I don't melt a
little blob of solder on the tip before soldering the wire, I can't do
it at all.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Pop` spake thus:

Father Haskell wrote:

Pop` wrote:

Actually, no, a Weller would be a poor choice that that
application. The heat transfer is too slow and would create the
aforementioned problems.

Not if you tin the wires first.

Still wrong, I'm afraid. It helps but won't alleviate the problems.

Then explain how I was able to solder *three* #12 wires with just my
little 30-watt soldering iron. Did it just last night. Of course, I
made sure the tip was clean (using my trusty damp sponge in a tray),
and tinned the tip well before soldering. That's the key: if I don't
melt a little blob of solder on the tip before soldering the wire, I
can't do it at all.

Sorry, it's your responsibility you assumed to explain things, not mine. A
lot of jobs can be accomplished using improper and incorrect tools: If
that's how you do things, then more power to you. If you're simply being a
silly purist, then to hell with you. I said it wouldn't alleviate the
problems, and it won't. But that's all I said. You've proven nothing, but
I didn't ask you to prove anything, and I could prove the opposite just as
easily; probably easier. But that's sideways to any points I made but which
you seem to want to become confrontational about. I believe in reality,
not in ****ing contests and purist applications of crap.

Sorry; just off the top of my head here. Feel however you wish; I'm done
with your illogic.

Pop`

Roger Grady wrote:
"The Other Funk" wrote:

I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I
know that I have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning wol be considered DC.

Lightening is definitely AC, with frequency components up into the
hundreds of megahertz.

As someone else mentioned, it's static electricity, but it's also a
big electrical spark, with a very fast rise time. That fast rise time
is what generates the high frequency components. The high-frequency
nature is what calls for consideration of more than just the current
flow when designing lightning protection.

The voltage drop across a conductor carrying AC depends on its
inductance as well as its resistance. A #10 wire will carry the
current of a typical lightning bolt without fusing (note I said
typical - that means maybe 10,000 amps. for several microseconds. The
occasional superbolts with many times that current for a longer
duration would need a much bigger wire.) But a #10 wire has a fair
amount of inductance at RF frequencies where lightning has significant
energy, and thus there will be a higher voltage drop because of the
inductance. To get a lower inductance for a given cross-sectional
area, strap conductors are used. The way the conductors are routed
also is important. A sharp bend has more inductance than a gradual
one, a straight wire even less.

Lightning protection is an interesting subject. Good protection is
possible, but it requires attention to lots of details. If you forget
even one and suffer a hit, the lightning will find the weak spot,
guaranteed.


Roger Grady
To reply by email, remove "qlfit." from address

'Static' electricity
Before 1839, physicists regarded "static electricity" as a substance
distinct from four other kinds of electricity: "current" or "Voltaic"
electricity, "Animal" or "bioelectricity," "thermoelectricity" from
thermocouples and "magnetoelectricity" from coils. In that year Michael
Faraday published the results of his experiments on the Identity of
Electricities. He demonstrated that the divisions between static, current,
etc., were illusions, that all five "kinds of electricity" were actually
collections of phenomena, while electricity itself was a single entity
appearing in negative and positive forms.

Today we regard static electricity as a subject heading also called
Electrostatics: a class of various phenomena associated with substances or
objects having a net electric charge. In everyday usage, "static
electricity" typically refers to charged objects with voltages of sufficient
magnitude to produce visible attraction, repulsion, and electrical sparks.

Static electricity can be a serious nuisance in the processing of analog
recording media, because it can attract dust to sensitive materials. In the
case of photography, dust accumulating on lenses and photographic plates
degrades the resulting picture. Dust also permanently damages vinyl records
because it can be embedded into the grooves as the stylus passes over. In
both cases, several approaches exist to combat such dust deposition. Some
brushes, particularly those with carbon fiber bristles, are advertised as
possessing anti-static properties. Also available are handheld static guns
which shoot streams of ions to discharge static on records and lenses.

Note that the charges associated with static electricity need not be still
or "static." The presence of charge motions and electric current does not
detract from the net charge, the electrostatic forces, nor from the sparking
and corona discharge, or other phenomena. Electric current and electrostatic
phenomena can exist simultaneously in the same system.

Static electricity is an important element in the biological process of
pollination by bees, since the charge on a bee's body helps to attract and
hold pollen.

Pop` spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Pop` spake thus:

Father Haskell wrote:

Pop` wrote:

Actually, no, a Weller would be a poor choice that that
application. The heat transfer is too slow and would create the
aforementioned problems.

Not if you tin the wires first.

Still wrong, I'm afraid. It helps but won't alleviate the problems.

Then explain how I was able to solder *three* #12 wires with just my
little 30-watt soldering iron. Did it just last night. Of course, I
made sure the tip was clean (using my trusty damp sponge in a tray),
and tinned the tip well before soldering. That's the key: if I don't
melt a little blob of solder on the tip before soldering the wire, I
can't do it at all.

Sorry, it's your responsibility you assumed to explain things, not mine. A
lot of jobs can be accomplished using improper and incorrect tools: If
that's how you do things, then more power to you. If you're simply being a
silly purist, then to hell with you. I said it wouldn't alleviate the
problems, and it won't. But that's all I said. You've proven nothing, but
I didn't ask you to prove anything, and I could prove the opposite just as
easily; probably easier. But that's sideways to any points I made but which
you seem to want to become confrontational about. I believe in reality,
not in ****ing contests and purist applications of crap.

Sorry; just off the top of my head here. Feel however you wish; I'm done
with your illogic.

Logic, schmogic: I simply *did something* that you claimed was not
possible, and asked you for an explantion. No "purist" about it (maybe
you're the purist here, but I'm sure as hell not).

And while we're not on the subject, just what is that with the backquote
(`) after your name? Is there a story there?


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Pop` spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Pop` spake thus:

Father Haskell wrote:

Pop` wrote:

Actually, no, a Weller would be a poor choice that that
application. The heat transfer is too slow and would create the
aforementioned problems.

Not if you tin the wires first.

Still wrong, I'm afraid. It helps but won't alleviate the
problems.

Then explain how I was able to solder *three* #12 wires with just my
little 30-watt soldering iron. Did it just last night. Of course, I
made sure the tip was clean (using my trusty damp sponge in a tray),
and tinned the tip well before soldering. That's the key: if I don't
melt a little blob of solder on the tip before soldering the wire, I
can't do it at all.

Sorry, it's your responsibility you assumed to explain things, not
mine. A lot of jobs can be accomplished using improper and
incorrect tools: If that's how you do things, then more power to
you. If you're simply being a silly purist, then to hell with you. I
said it wouldn't alleviate the problems, and it won't. But that's
all I said. You've proven nothing, but I didn't ask you to prove
anything, and I could prove the opposite just as easily; probably
easier. But that's sideways to any points I made but which you seem
to want to become confrontational about. I believe in reality,
not in ****ing contests and purist applications of crap. Sorry; just off
the top of my head here. Feel however you wish; I'm
done with your illogic.

Logic, schmogic: I simply *did something* that you claimed was not
possible,

Maybe if I repeat myself: I did NOT ask you to do any such thing.

and asked you for an explantion. No "purist" about it (maybe
you're the purist here, but I'm sure as hell not).

And while we're not on the subject, just what is that with the
backquote (`) after your name? Is there a story there?

You'll never knowg.

Pop` wrote:
Father Haskell wrote:
Pop` wrote:

Actually, no, a Weller would be a poor choice that that application.
The heat transfer is too slow and would create the aforementioned
problems.

Not if you tin the wires first.

Still wrong, I'm afraid. It helps but won't alleviate the problems.

Using a small locking plier for a heat sink will lessen damage
to insulation.

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 03:19:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Oren wrote:

I've done exactly this, but often wondering if what I did in a pinch
was *okay*. After 17 years that house is still standing. I've asked
myself now and then if what I did was correct. At that time *code* was
not on my mind. This thread makes me even have more piece of mind.
Solder is not necessarily wrong.

Nobody ever said it was wrong -- just pointless. Code requires soldered
splices to be both mechanically and electrically secure without the solder. So
what's the use?

Nor, did I. I soldered wires one time many years ago, not knowing if I
was right or wrong (another thread one day). I was glad to see that
it is allowed from your earlier response and your comment that it was
not needed - but allowed by code.

Do I solder wires now? No. Would I again? Maybe. (g)

Thanks.

--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

Roger Grady wrote:

"The Other Funk" wrote:


I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I know that I
have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning wol be considered DC.


Lightening is definitely AC, with frequency components up into the
hundreds of megahertz.

snip

It's a pulse. It only exhibits one polarity during its duration.
Whether you characterize that as DC or AC is largely irrelevant.

If you call it AC, then you can easily get AC from a dry cell, and
there is probably no such thing as DC -- everything we normally
consider DC varies to some degree, if only off/on.

If you call it DC, then you'll have trouble when you find you need to
apply AC analysis tools to its propagation.

So it's probably best to just call it a pulse and let it go at that.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

CJT spake thus:

Roger Grady wrote:

"The Other Funk" wrote:

I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I know
that I have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning wol be considered DC.

Lightening is definitely AC, with frequency components up into the
hundreds of megahertz.

snip

It's a pulse. It only exhibits one polarity during its duration.
Whether you characterize that as DC or AC is largely irrelevant.

If you call it AC, then you can easily get AC from a dry cell, and
there is probably no such thing as DC -- everything we normally
consider DC varies to some degree, if only off/on.

If you call it DC, then you'll have trouble when you find you need to
apply AC analysis tools to its propagation.

So it's probably best to just call it a pulse and let it go at that.

It's pulsed *DC*. As you point out (and as I suspected), the pulse is of
a single polarity. AC, by definition, is bipolar, so it's not AC (or
it's a degenerate case of AC).

Which makes sense, knowing how lightning is produced: the charges in the
clouds which produce it all have a single polarity. If they didn't,
their charges would cancel each other out.

Now I wonder what polarity it is: time to fly a kite, with a recording
DVM attached to the string?


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Finding the keyboard operational
David Nebenzahl entered:

CJT spake thus:

Roger Grady wrote:

"The Other Funk" wrote:

I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I
know that I have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning would be considered DC.

I can see that I have a lot to learn about lightning. I gaurentee that I
learned about it from someone who was teaching before 1839. Those nuns
seemed to be that old anyway.
Bob
--�
--�
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

In article .com, "Father Haskell" wrote:


What's the mp for 63/37 eutectic?

361 F

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article WQUjh.8$Xr.1@trnddc04, "Pop`" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Oren
wrote:

I've done exactly this, but often wondering if what I did in a pinch
was *okay*. After 17 years that house is still standing. I've asked
myself now and then if what I did was correct. At that time *code*
was not on my mind. This thread makes me even have more piece of
mind. Solder is not necessarily wrong.

Nobody ever said it was wrong -- just pointless. Code requires
soldered
splices to be both mechanically and electrically secure without the
solder. So
what's the use?

The "use" is, the mechanical connection does NOT necessarily imply a good
electrical connection. The mechanical connection simply stops the wires
from being physically separated and coming into contact with something else.
Which is important in the overall scheme of things.

Guess you missed the part about "mechanically AND ELECTRICALLY secure"
[emphasis added], huh? IOW, a splice that's mechanically secure, but not
electrically secure, is not Code-compliant -- period -- and cannot be made
compliant by the addition of solder.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

The Other Funk wrote:
Finding the keyboard operational
David Nebenzahl entered:

CJT spake thus:

Roger Grady wrote:

"The Other Funk" wrote:

I haen't see a great deal of lightning protected buildings but I
know that I have seen heavy gauge soild wire used.
Also, I think, not know, that lightning would be considered DC.

I can see that I have a lot to learn about lightning. I gaurentee
that I learned about it from someone who was teaching before 1839.
Those nuns seemed to be that old anyway.
Bob
--�
--�
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...n&q=lightening

Results 1 - 10 of about 6,450,000 for lightening [definition]. (0.04 seconds

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...en&q=lightning
Results 1 - 10 of about 62,300,000 for lightning [definition]. (0.04 seconds