I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

Good silver solder for steam engine work is 96% tin, 4% silver. It has melt
point of around 430 deg. I think. Harris Stay-Bright is a common brand..
Technically it is known as "silver bearing solder", I suppose because of the
relatively low silver content. It is used with zinc chloride / hydrochloric
acid flux, sold by Harris as "Stay Clean". PM Research specifies this type
of silver solder in their boiler kits - I recently built one. I'm not sure
about the "official" silver solder for jewelry work but 96/4 silver bearing
solder has worked well for minor jewelry repairs I have made. Incidentally,
96/4 is sold by Radio Shack as silver bearing solder.

The higher temp stuff, 800 degrees and higher is known as silver braze. It
is typically of high silver content, ranging upwards to 45% silver. Costly!
It is very strong - weld strength - probably wasted strength for jewelry
work though. Besides the higher temp would make it harder to handle without
damage to the jewelry.

Bob Swinney

"John Hofstad-Parkhill" wrote in message
...
I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver soldering
parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:36:12 -0600, John Hofstad-Parkhill
wrote:

I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

Hard, medium and easy refers to melting temperature, hard being the
highest.

In jewellry work, color match is more important than strength. That
influences the choice of alloys, depending on what metals are to be
joined.

For general purpose silverbrazing of steel, stainless and brass I like
a cadmium-bearing 45% silver alloy like Handy Harman EasyFlo 45.
It wets and flows very nicely. It's hard to find cad-bearing alloys
in retail welding stores because cadmium fumes are bad (don't breath
the fumes, have good ventilation, duh!) and Americans are litigious,
but it is widely-used in industry and by bicycle framebuilders. A
reasonably good substitute is a 56% silver non-cad-bearing alloy like
Harris-Welco Safety-Silv 56 which I think can be found at Mnpls Oxygen
and Toll. These materials have a significant copper content which
gives a color closer to polished brass than to silver. They are very
strong.

Check Reynolds Welding just north of Hwy 7 ; they might have some
interesting choices.

John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:

I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

I like the Harris products. I think the fluxes I use are Sta-Silv white (for
general soldering, it's probably just zinc chloride) and black.

http://www.jwharris.com/welref/faq/flux_chart/

It appears that Harris no longer makes cadmium-bearing silver brazing alloys. I
think mine was made by Engelhardt. I think I use the 45% silver type.

I use the white flux on small stuff that heats up really quickly, and the black
hi-temp flux when I'm doing more robust steel parts. I never had any luck at all
silver soldering until I started using an oxy-acetylene welding torch. Nothing
but a messy discouragement.

Grant

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:08:40 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:


Good silver solder for steam engine work is 96% tin, 4% silver. It has melt
point of around 430 deg. I think. Harris Stay-Bright is a common brand..
Technically it is known as "silver bearing solder", I suppose because of the
relatively low silver content. It is used with zinc chloride / hydrochloric
acid flux, sold by Harris as "Stay Clean". PM Research specifies this type
of silver solder in their boiler kits - I recently built one. I'm not sure
about the "official" silver solder for jewelry work but 96/4 silver bearing
solder has worked well for minor jewelry repairs I have made. Incidentally,
96/4 is sold by Radio Shack as silver bearing solder.

The higher temp stuff, 800 degrees and higher is known as silver braze. It
is typically of high silver content, ranging upwards to 45% silver. Costly!
It is very strong - weld strength - probably wasted strength for jewelry
work though. Besides the higher temp would make it harder to handle without
damage to the jewelry.

Bob Swinney

Stay-Brite is good stuff, but silver brazing is about 5X stronger.
Stay-Brite does give a nice colormatch with stainless. Brownell's
offers a silverbrazing alloy they say is a good colormatch with
stainless. I haven't tried it.
http://tinyurl.com/b57yr

There are two flavors of StayBrite: the regular stuff and StayBrite
8. Regular StayBrite is very fluid, almost like water. StayBrite 8
has a plastic range so it is possible to get some buildup if desired.

One troy ounce of real silversolder (several feet of 1/16" dia) will
make a lot of joints!

Ordinary soldering tools (irons, propane or butane torch) are fine
with StayBrite. You need oxy-fuel for silver-brazing. I really
like the Meco Midget torch running oxy-acetylene.

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.php

This inexpensive torch may look like a toy, but I can assure you it
definitely does not work like a toy. It is an excellent tool.
It's the torch I use 90% of the time for silverbrazing and for
welding thin aluminum.

The Smith Little Torch is better for very small work, as in jewellry.
The Meco Midget #0 tip is about equivalent to a Litttle Torch #4 tip.

Check out Handy and Harman sebsite. I have a copy of there brazing book
whick while it mainly discussed there products does give one a lot of
info on silver soldering and brazing. You can also download the booklet
but have to register for it.
http://www.handyharmancanada.com/

John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:
I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

John -

I think most have missed the boat - this is Model Steam engine -
Not jewelry.

I'd use the copper silver hard brazing silver solders. Pressure and stress requires these.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:
I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
John -

I think most have missed the boat - this is Model Steam engine -
Not jewelry.

I'd use the copper silver hard brazing silver solders. Pressure and
stress requires these.

Martin

Yep!

Harold

John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:
I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.
Judging by the responses you've had it seems to me that there is a
terminology problem here.
I reckon your documentation originated in UK where silver solder is the
name given to a hard solder which is an alloy of copper, silver and
other metals. It has a melting point of around 600C or more and is
comparable in strength to brazing brass. It is _not_ the same as the
lead bearing solders that can be melted with a soldering iron. The
proper (UK type) silver solder needs a torch to melt it - you can use
air/propane or air/butane, but oxy/propane is also used. You also need a
special flux.
The hallmarking quality silver solder used for jewellery is a similar
product, but has rather more silver in the alloy and is, consequently,
more expensive. The hard/medium/soft refers to the melting points, but
even soft melts at around 600C or more. Definitely not soldering iron
territory.

--

Regards, Gary Wooding
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)

You may find some useful info on the Johnson Matthey site
http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/share...troduction.htm

They make a lot of the silver solder used by model engineers in the UK
such as easyflo 2.

John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:

I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry
they talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some)
is that the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:36:12 -0600, John Hofstad-Parkhill
wrote:

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

There are several.

First of all, the older recipes included cadmium. This is great
(metallurgically) but it's toxic as anything. So schools ditched all
their cadmium silver solder a few years back - eBay bargains are still
to be had ! Incidentally the flux is nasty too.

Secondly, there are different grades, with different melting points. If
you're doing boiler work then you often need to use several of these in
turn, so that lower temperatures ("softer") don't melt the joints you
made earlier with the harder solders.

In general, use the hardest silver solder you can get away with. Less
silver, so it's cheaper. Low temperature or colour considerations might
force you to a lowertem perature one.

9. Gary Wooding
Jan 14, 3:32 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
From: Gary Wooding - Find messages by this
author
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:32:52 +0000
Local: Sat, Jan 14 2006 3:32 am
Subject: Silver Solder - which one?
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John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:
I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?


I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?


Sorry.



Judging by the responses you've had it seems to me that there is a
terminology problem here.
I reckon your documentation originated in UK where silver solder is the

name given to a hard solder which is an alloy of copper, silver and
other metals. It has a melting point of around 600C or more and is
comparable in strength to brazing brass. It is _not_ the same as the
lead bearing solders that can be melted with a soldering iron. The
proper (UK type) silver solder needs a torch to melt it - you can use
air/propane or air/butane, but oxy/propane is also used. You also need
a
special flux.
The hallmarking quality silver solder used for jewellery is a similar
product, but has rather more silver in the alloy and is, consequently,
more expensive. The hard/medium/soft refers to the melting points, but
even soft melts at around 600C or more. Definitely not soldering iron
territory.

I beg to differ with your terminology. Soldering, by definition, is a
bonding alloy that melts at a lower temperature then the base metal.
Hard solders melt at brazing temperatures, soft solders generally below
600 degrees F. Jewelers silver solder comes in hard, medium and easy
grades to allow consecutive jointing operations on intricate pieces.
Bugs

Don Foreman wrote:

Ordinary soldering tools (irons, propane or butane torch) are fine
with StayBrite. You need oxy-fuel for silver-brazing.

I make no comment on suitability of any alloy or method for boiler
work, however oxy-fuel is not usually required for generic silver
brazing. For non-silver alloys you may need it, but for something like
classic 56% silver (non-cadmium) wire on small or thin-wall parts, you
do not.

The jewelry industry standardly uses acetylene-available air. For very
fine parts a cheap bottle-top propane torch will just barely work,
while a swirl-flame (retail store) plumbing torch will put out plenty
of heat. The advantage of the jewelry-style acetylene (still burning
in atmosphere) torch is that you can concentrate the heat more than
with the swirl-flame plumbing torch. However for occasional use it's
better to have something that can work on a small retail cylinder than
to have to buy and store an acetylene cylinder - and there's always
MAPP if propane isn't hot enough.

My guess is that if the poster has the jewelry setup, simply buying a
larger torch tip (such as might be used for melting) would be
sufficient to adapt to the larger workpieces. But a nice self-igniting
swirl flame bottle torch is a handy thing to have around anyway (I used
mine on an adapter hose from a grill tank to anneal trumpet bell
blanks, even after I started using acetylene for a fine flame and
higher heat to support a higher-brass alloy when brazing the bell tail)

John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:
I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

All solder used in the jewelry industry to solder jewlery is "hard"
solder, i.e. it does not contain tin.

The terms we use, hard, medium, easy are really misleading. More
appropriate might be high, medium, low as refering to the temperatures
at which they flow.

I have marked my solders 1, 2, and 3 as in work flow, where my number 1
solder is used first in the process, and has the highest flow
tempreature (hard). Number 2 is medium, and #3 is easy.

For silver I have 4 different solders. Again, these are all hard
solders and do not contain tin.

In case of the boiler for instance for your steam engine, i would use
the highest temparature solder that the metal you are soldering would
allow. I assume you are making the boiler out of copper. That can be
soldered with a "hard" of "medium" silver solder. I would not use a tin
based solder as one of the posters has suggested, especailly for a boiler.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Robert Swinney wrote:


The higher temp stuff, 800 degrees and higher is known as silver braze. It
is typically of high silver content, ranging upwards to 45% silver. Costly!
It is very strong - weld strength - probably wasted strength for jewelry
work though.

Not waste at all, and required by law.

Besides the higher temp would make it harder to handle without
damage to the jewelry.

For you maybe, not for a goldsmith who knows what he/she is doing. I
haven't damaged a piece of silver jewelry, by soldering it with silver
solder, in more than 25 years.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

wrote:


The jewelry industry standardly uses acetylene-available air.

Not true. Acetylene torches are rarely used in the jewelry industry.
It is to dirty and too hot for most jewelry work.

For very
fine parts a cheap bottle-top propane torch will just barely work,

With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about.

I have used a mouth blown and/or bellows blown propane torch for the
last 30 years. Not a problem with fine work at all.

while a swirl-flame (retail store) plumbing torch will put out plenty
of heat.

Plumbing torch for jewelry, ... cute.

The advantage of the jewelry-style acetylene (still burning
in atmosphere) torch is that you can concentrate the heat more than
with the swirl-flame plumbing torch. However for occasional use it's
better to have something that can work on a small retail cylinder than
to have to buy and store an acetylene cylinder - and there's always
MAPP if propane isn't hot enough.

Propane with air is plenty hot, and propane with oxygen, which I use for
platinum work is hot enough to melt platinum.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
John -

I think most have missed the boat - this is Model Steam engine -
Not jewelry.

I'd use the copper silver hard brazing silver solders. Pressure and
stress requires these.

Martin


Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.

Soldering a boiler with tin based solder, as someone suggested, ... yeah
right. Boooom!

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Gary Wooding wrote:


Judging by the responses you've had it seems to me that there is a
terminology problem here.
I reckon your documentation originated in UK where silver solder is the
name given to a hard solder which is an alloy of copper, silver and
other metals. It has a melting point of around 600C or more and is
comparable in strength to brazing brass.

My "hard" (#1 high temperature flowing) silver solder melts at 860
degrees C. I got it from Degussa in Germany. I also get solders from
Hafner in Germany.

It is _not_ the same as the
lead bearing solders that can be melted with a soldering iron. The
proper (UK type) silver solder needs a torch to melt it - you can use
air/propane or air/butane, but oxy/propane is also used. You also need a
special flux.
The hallmarking quality silver solder used for jewellery is a similar
product, but has rather more silver in the alloy and is, consequently,
more expensive. The hard/medium/soft refers to the melting points, but
even soft melts at around 600C or more. Definitely not soldering iron
territory.


Thank you.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:23:56 -0800, Abrasha
wrote:

wrote:


The jewelry industry standardly uses acetylene-available air.

Not true. Acetylene torches are rarely used in the jewelry industry.
It is to dirty and too hot for most jewelry work.

For very
fine parts a cheap bottle-top propane torch will just barely work,

With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about.

I have used a mouth blown and/or bellows blown propane torch for the
last 30 years. Not a problem with fine work at all.

while a swirl-flame (retail store) plumbing torch will put out plenty
of heat.

Plumbing torch for jewelry, ... cute.

The advantage of the jewelry-style acetylene (still burning
in atmosphere) torch is that you can concentrate the heat more than
with the swirl-flame plumbing torch. However for occasional use it's
better to have something that can work on a small retail cylinder than
to have to buy and store an acetylene cylinder - and there's always
MAPP if propane isn't hot enough.

Propane with air is plenty hot, and propane with oxygen, which I use for
platinum work is hot enough to melt platinum.

I certainly defer to your experience in the area of jewellry making.
Propane-air particularly forced air, definitely does have ample
heat and temperature for brazing and even melting -- with enough
air, enough propane and enough time.

However, even a small boiler is a lot bigger heatsink than a piece of
jewellry, so a pinpoint air-fuel flame is not gonna do it. It would
take an air-fuel flame large enough for the job. That flame will
be considerably larger and more diffuse than an O/A or oxy-propane
flame of compararable capability.

My experience (which does not include jewellry) is that I prefer
oxy-acetylene for the speed and control that it affords. YMMV, of
course. I don't need to use or stock three different meltingpoint
materials to make multiple joints in a single piece because I can
control the heat well enough to not melt previous joints. The fact
that the pieces I work with are larger than jewellry undoubtedly
helps. I can also locally focus the heat to draw the alloy
where I want it to go: the molten material "follows the heat".

I've invited John to come over and try my O/A rigs, and I'll give his
acetylene-air (aspirated, not forced) a try as well, having a fair
amount of experience in silverbrazing. I have little doubt that we
will able to make joints with any of the various tools.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:26:23 -0800, Abrasha
wrote:

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
John -

I think most have missed the boat - this is Model Steam engine -
Not jewelry.

I'd use the copper silver hard brazing silver solders. Pressure and
stress requires these.

Martin


Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.

Soldering a boiler with tin based solder, as someone suggested, ... yeah
right. Boooom!
Would it hold enough pressure to make a decent boom, or more like
phffffffft!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Well, I at least don't feel bad now about not knowing the answer.

I appreciate the responses.

I should have been more specific. I build model steam engines. I do not
have plans to build a boiler.

I have a boiler - which I may visit someday, but am quite happy running
the machines on compressed air. I am fully aware of the potential hazard
of live steam. I'm not afraid of it, nor am I afraid of my table saw.
That does not mean I wouldn't be careful.

As far as solder -vs- brazing, I believe I understand the semantics. I
was using terminology that I find common in nearly all the literature I
read about live steam model building, it's nearly universally called
"silver soldering", and that's what I meant.



John Hofstad-Parkhill said the following on 1/13/2006 4:36 PM:
I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

"John Hofstad-Parkhill" wrote in message
...
snip----

As far as solder -vs- brazing, I believe I understand the semantics. I
was using terminology that I find common in nearly all the literature I
read about live steam model building, it's nearly universally called
"silver soldering", and that's what I meant.


And I feel you used the term correctly. I'm far from a weldor, but I get
the impression that there's a serious difference between silver soldering
and brazing. Silver solder will follow a heat source, and flows like
water. I'm not convinced that brazing works similarly.

I've been in the machine trade since the late 50's, and have always heard
the process referenced as "silver soldering".

Works for me.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

... snip

And I feel you used the term correctly. I'm far from a weldor, but I get
the impression that there's a serious difference between silver soldering
and brazing. Silver solder will follow a heat source, and flows like
water. I'm not convinced that brazing works similarly.

I've been in the machine trade since the late 50's, and have always heard
the process referenced as "silver soldering".



As mentioned previously, there is a terminology problem here. Here in UK
the term "soldering" refers to the process of joining metals with
another metal having a lower melting point; in contrast to "welding"
where metals are joined by melting them, and possibly adding a filler of
the same melting point. We (meaning us in UK) recognise soft solders as
those alloys containing lead/tin and hard solders as those that do not.
Soft solders can be melted with a soldering iron, hard ones cannot.
One particular type of hard solder is brass. It was once very commonly
used to join iron or steel, and the process was known as brazing.
Brazing is simply soldering with brass.
The melting point of brass is high enough to make it unsuitable for
joining copper or brass items, so another type of hard solder was
developed that includes silver. This lowers the melting point so that it
can be used to solder copper or brass. It is just about as strong as
brass, but the silver content increases the cost considerably. Brazing
and silver soldering are simply hard soldering; soldering with soft
solders is known as soft soldering.

In USA it appears to be different in that all hard soldering is known as
brazing, and all soft soldering is known as soldering. That's how I see
it anyway.

--

Regards, Gary Wooding
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:59:24 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"John Hofstad-Parkhill" wrote in message
...
snip----

As far as solder -vs- brazing, I believe I understand the semantics. I
was using terminology that I find common in nearly all the literature I
read about live steam model building, it's nearly universally called
"silver soldering", and that's what I meant.


And I feel you used the term correctly. I'm far from a weldor, but I get
the impression that there's a serious difference between silver soldering
and brazing. Silver solder will follow a heat source, and flows like
water. I'm not convinced that brazing works similarly.

I've been in the machine trade since the late 50's, and have always heard
the process referenced as "silver soldering".

Works for me.

Harold

You've been working with metal longer than I have, and I'm an amateur
at metal while you are a pro. I'll bet I could learn a lot as an
apprentice in your shop and I bet I'd enjoy doing so though I strongly
doubt you'd tolerate my retired-ass appetite for work or hours.

I'll still brashly note what I've learned, or think I've learned,
about the subject at hand.

Silversoldering is generally the same as silverbrazing, Harold --
which can be quite different from brazing with "brazing rod" like
bronze or nickel-bronze. My experience is that the latter materials
don't follow the heat worth a damn, though do not profess to be a
pro. I seldom use them for that reason. I haven't done a bronze or
nickle-bronze joint in half a decade. Pennies of cost per joint
don't concern me a bit. I'm an amateur. I don't make my living
working with metal.

Many if not most or all silverbrazing alloys do follow the heat
source. I use that property routinely as a matter of technique.
The follow is a matter of fluidity of the melted alloy and it's
abilty to wet the parent metal in both brazing and soldering.

The low-temp materials are not regarded as silversolder but rather as
silver-bearing solder May seem like a nit, but big difference.
Sticking stuff together with silver-bearing solders at below 800 F is
definitely soldering, but silver-brazing at temps above 800F is also
often referred to as silversoldering -- and the materials used to do
that are often referred to as silversolders.

Brazing and soldering are similar and differentiated from welding,
in that the parent metal is never melted but is alloyed at lower temp
with the joining material. The primary or only difference between
brazing and soldering, as I understand it, is a matter of temperatu
soldering is below 800F, brazing is above. I know of no basis for
this apparently arbitrary boundary, but it seems to be accepted -- if
confused by the common practice of referring to what is
silverbrazing by this definition as silversoldering.

The remaining sanity in this mishmash is that soldering with
lower-temp silver-bearing solders is very seldom regarded as
silversoldering. It's just soldering with an alloy that contains a
bit of silver.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:55:27 -0500, Gerald Miller
wrote:

Soldering a boiler with tin based solder, as someone suggested, ... yeah
right. Boooom!

Well I've built two with lead/tin solders. For low pressure and low
temperature, there's nothing wrong with it. These were small Newcomen
engines, fired by camping gaz burners.

Would it hold enough pressure to make a decent boom, or more like
phffffffft!

All large firetube boilers have a "fusible plug" in them at the top of
the firebox. This is a replaceable screw fitting with a hold drilled
through it, filled with soft solder. If you let the water level drop to
expose the plug, the heat melts the solder and it vents into the
firebox. Rarely enough to affect the fire, but it's pretty noticeable
and it lowers the pressure. Although there's no mechanical stress on
this plug, it demnstrates that there's no inherent problem running soft
solders at boiler temperatures.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:54:13 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Brazing and soldering are similar and differentiated from welding,
in that the parent metal is never melted but is alloyed at lower temp
with the joining material.

You can also weld without melting the parent metal. Bronze welding uses
exactly the same base materials and filler rod as brazing, but the
technique is different. In soldering and brazing the overall workpiece
is heated and capillary action causes the solder to flow into place. In
welding (and bronze welding) the technique uses a more narrowly applied
heat source. In bronze welding the cuprous filler rod is melted into
place without melting the base metal (probably steel) and this gives a
fillet with the typical "stack of dimes" look, not a smooth capillary
fillet.

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

And I feel you used the term correctly. I'm far from a weldor, but I get
the impression that there's a serious difference between silver soldering
and brazing. Silver solder will follow a heat source, and flows like
water. I'm not convinced that brazing works similarly.

I've been in the machine trade since the late 50's, and have always heard
the process referenced as "silver soldering".

Harold you will find a great deal of smoke and not much light on
this issue.

But the general consensus is, that the following terms are indeed
interchangeable and mean exactly the same thing, from an adhesion
standpoint:

Brazing

Hard soldering

Silver soldering

Braze welding

The mean the same thing, basically joining two similar or dis-similar
metals using a filler that melts above 800 degrees, and does not
melt the parent metal.

You will find a great many folks who claim that one of the other
of the four terms above are indeed separate and distinct and
describe different processes. If you do, then press them to
tell you exactly what is different between, say, brazing and
sliver soldering. Or braze welding and brazing. Or hard soldering
and sliver soldering. Etc.

If the filler metal goes liquid below 800 degrees, it's soft
soldering.

If the parent metal melts, it's welding.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I've been using Solder-It for a few months, vastly superior
to all the 4% and lower Silver content ones from Radio Shack etc.

Comes in a hypo-style tube, is 6%, I believe, has a great flux
for bonding to steel or brass or Copper etc.

As easy to work with (or easier) for mending bits of clocks I
work with, and many times stronger than normal Sn/Pb soft
solders. Most hardware stores.

I won't comment on its safety for boilers, but I'm also concerned
about using "hard" Silver solders for same, as the heat will
certainly anneal brass or Cu - will this weaken it?

/mark


John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:

I'll take my lumps. I did google. whineI've had a long week /whine

If you're building a model steam engine and it calls for silver
soldering parts together, what exactly is the solder in question?

I dabble in many things, as many of you do, woodworking, machining,
jewelry probably take up most of my interests. So, when in jewelry they
talk about hard/medium/easy solder (I have some, have used some) is that
the same silver solder used for live steam projects?

Sorry.

On 15 Jan 2006 08:12:52 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

If the filler metal goes liquid below 800 degrees, it's soft
soldering.

What's a degree ? Reamur ?

Abrasha wrote:
wrote:


The jewelry industry standardly uses acetylene-available air.

Not true. Acetylene torches are rarely used in the jewelry industry.
It is to dirty and too hot for most jewelry work.

Perhaps not the industry then, but in many jewelry (silversmithing)
courses offered to the public. Open up the riogrande catalog and what
do you see? The classic fine-tip acetylene available air torch setups.
Yes, there are also exotics like hydroxen electrolysis systems and
probably older methods like your mouthpipe.

For very
fine parts a cheap bottle-top propane torch will just barely work,

With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about.

I know what I'm talking about well enough to have done quite a bit of
it. And on workpieces much larger than any jewelry project too. I
didn't say it was a good solution, I said it would just barely work -
probably with the "easy" grade of solder only, too.

I have used a mouth blown and/or bellows blown propane torch for the
last 30 years. Not a problem with fine work at all.

Sure, there are many methods of doing things. This may be advantageous
for some applications, but it's not necesssarily the best generic
method for silver soldering.

while a swirl-flame (retail store) plumbing torch will put out plenty
of heat.

Plumbing torch for jewelry, ... cute.

You know the thread is not about jewelry but about the options for
making boilers. One of those is to use tools used by some
silversmithing studios (even if not by you), and another might be to go
get a the hottest bernzomatic from home depot. It all depends on if
the flame needs to be concentrated or if it's okay to heat up a larger
area.

The advantage of the jewelry-style acetylene (still burning
in atmosphere) torch is that you can concentrate the heat more than
with the swirl-flame plumbing torch. However for occasional use it's
better to have something that can work on a small retail cylinder than
to have to buy and store an acetylene cylinder - and there's always
MAPP if propane isn't hot enough.

Propane with air is plenty hot, and propane with oxygen, which I use for
platinum work is hot enough to melt platinum.

Yes, if you want to bother with a source of compressed oxidizer.
You've pointed out the possibility of a mouthpipe with is probably the
simplest of those options if you are confident using one. I was
talking about torches which entrain atmospheric air by themselves,
simplifying things considerably though producing lower temperatures and
less concentrated flames.

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

And I feel you used the term correctly. I'm far from a weldor, but I get
the impression that there's a serious difference between silver soldering
and brazing. Silver solder will follow a heat source, and flows like
water. I'm not convinced that brazing works similarly.

No, this is not a factor of the process name but a result of the
property of the filler alloy used. A eutectic solder will tend to
flow like water and follow the joint assuming things are hot enough.
When the fit is designed for that it is wonderful. In contrast an
alloy can be chosen which has a "plastic" temperature range between its
solidus and liquidus and with practice this can be exploited to fill
gaps. To some extent, if you get the whole thing above that range it
should flow, but this is often hotter than you'd be comfortable or able
to get the workpiece.

I think the confusion stems from traditional brazing alloys ("braze" -
implication of brass or bronze type alloy) being those with plastic
ranges rather than the high flow variety. Wheras a common reason (when
color match is not a factor) of incurring the expense of a silver alloy
is when a lower temperature, higher flow process was desired. Hence
"brazing" tends to be associated with the use of plastic alloys and
"silver soldering" with high flow ones, but they are basically the same
process and there is no clear dividing line.

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos
says...

And I feel you used the term correctly. I'm far from a weldor, but I
get
the impression that there's a serious difference between silver soldering
and brazing. Silver solder will follow a heat source, and flows like
water. I'm not convinced that brazing works similarly.

I've been in the machine trade since the late 50's, and have always heard
the process referenced as "silver soldering".

Harold you will find a great deal of smoke and not much light on
this issue.

Chuckle!

Which is becoming quite obvious!


But the general consensus is, that the following terms are indeed
interchangeable and mean exactly the same thing, from an adhesion
standpoint:

Brazing

Hard soldering

Silver soldering

Braze welding

The mean the same thing, basically joining two similar or dis-similar
metals using a filler that melts above 800 degrees, and does not
melt the parent metal.

You will find a great many folks who claim that one of the other
of the four terms above are indeed separate and distinct and
describe different processes. If you do, then press them to
tell you exactly what is different between, say, brazing and
sliver soldering. Or braze welding and brazing. Or hard soldering
and sliver soldering. Etc.

I can provide one difference. Silver solder does not build up in similar
fashion to bronze brazing.. Who amongst us hasn't seen some serious
"beads" of brass built up on cast iron? Try that with silver solder.
Doesn't work, nor is there much benefit in doing so, anyway. . Joints for
silver soldering are generally set up quite precisely, due in part to silver
solder's limited ability to fill.



If the filler metal goes liquid below 800 degrees, it's soft
soldering.

If the parent metal melts, it's welding.

Jim

Thanks, Jim. I see it pretty much the same way.

Harold

wrote in message
ups.com...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

And I feel you used the term correctly. I'm far from a weldor, but I
get
the impression that there's a serious difference between silver
soldering
and brazing. Silver solder will follow a heat source, and flows like
water. I'm not convinced that brazing works similarly.

No, this is not a factor of the process name but a result of the
property of the filler alloy used. A eutectic solder will tend to
flow like water and follow the joint assuming things are hot enough.
When the fit is designed for that it is wonderful. In contrast an
alloy can be chosen which has a "plastic" temperature range between its
solidus and liquidus and with practice this can be exploited to fill
gaps. To some extent, if you get the whole thing above that range it
should flow, but this is often hotter than you'd be comfortable or able
to get the workpiece.

I think the confusion stems from traditional brazing alloys ("braze" -
implication of brass or bronze type alloy) being those with plastic
ranges rather than the high flow variety. Wheras a common reason (when
color match is not a factor) of incurring the expense of a silver alloy
is when a lower temperature, higher flow process was desired. Hence
"brazing" tends to be associated with the use of plastic alloys and
"silver soldering" with high flow ones, but they are basically the same
process and there is no clear dividing line.


Thanks!

Harold

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
snip---

You've been working with metal longer than I have, and I'm an amateur
at metal while you are a pro. I'll bet I could learn a lot as an
apprentice in your shop and I bet I'd enjoy doing so though I strongly
doubt you'd tolerate my retired-ass appetite for work or hours.

Hours? Like late night?

If you only knew! g

We generally get to bed well after 4:00 AM. When I was actively
machining, my best hours were late night/ early morning.


I'll still brashly note what I've learned, or think I've learned,
about the subject at hand.

-------snip lots of good stuff---

The low-temp materials are not regarded as silversolder but rather as
silver-bearing solder May seem like a nit, but big difference.
Sticking stuff together with silver-bearing solders at below 800 F is
definitely soldering, but silver-brazing at temps above 800F is also
often referred to as silversoldering -- and the materials used to do
that are often referred to as silversolders.


The remaining sanity in this mishmash is that soldering with
lower-temp silver-bearing solders is very seldom regarded as
silversoldering. It's just soldering with an alloy that contains a
bit of silver.

Yep! Hardly the same thing.



As I noted elsewhere, the one big difference between soldering and brazing
(each "one and the same") is silver solder's limited ability to fill gaps
and build beads. Don't know that it makes much difference in terminology,
but it sure does when you're the guy trying to build a filet with silver
solder, or bridge the gap when you screwed up on one of the components.

From all appearances, the terminology on this subject has been blurred for
years. I have in my possession a large coil of 1/16" silver "solder", tag
still intact, which clearly states that the product is "A low temperature
brazing alloy". It's 54% silver, according to the tag. Bottom of the
tag says United Wire & Supply Corp. Providence, 7, R.I. Providence
*7*?

We were all pups when this stuff hit the market.

Harold

On 15 Jan 2006 10:00:34 -0800, wrote:

The classic fine-tip acetylene available air torch setups.

The only air-acetylene torches I've ever seen have been the Prest-O-lite
sort. Now these are regarded as a fairly esoteric option locally, used
only by a handful of people - they're certainly far from "mainstream" or
"classic".

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

I can provide one difference. Silver solder does not build up in similar
fashion to bronze brazing.. Who amongst us hasn't seen some serious
"beads" of brass built up on cast iron? Try that with silver solder.
Doesn't work, nor is there much benefit in doing so, anyway. . Joints for
silver soldering are generally set up quite precisely, due in part to silver
solder's limited ability to fill.

You can build up silver solder if you keep the temperature below the
flow point. Even the handy and harmon ez-flow does that, when I'm
flowing a joint I like to deposit a tiny ball of solder on the
workpiece. As the heat builds the flux flows out, then the ball
beads up and sticks to the work. More solder added at this point
will look just like the brass welding rod you buy at the hardware
store. Chunky.

Instead what I do is wait till the ball flows out, then the
whole thing is up at temps and the joints runs nicely. It doesn't
fill, but it sure does flow. The man that taught me silver
soldering told stories about brazing gun barrels during ww2.
They used to press in the liners, get the entire thing hot,
and wipe the one end with the solder. The other end five
feet away would show the ring of solder appear all around,
if the joint was done right.

But the brass rod sold at the hardware store can be used to
to flow out, but it has a wider eutectic range. It's easier to
hold the part such that you can build up large beads like you
mentioned. I've never found joints like that to be terribly
strong so I prefer to keep on going and flow it out more.

The difference is in degree only I would say.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

But the brass rod sold at the hardware store can be used to
to flow out, but it has a wider eutectic range. It's easier to
hold the part such that you can build up large beads like you
mentioned. I've never found joints like that to be terribly
strong so I prefer to keep on going and flow it out more.

The difference is in degree only I would say.

And there are silver solders formulated to make a big fillet. You'll see
references to them in British publications from time to time. They've been
used for building custom bicycles and even for building some race car
spaceframes.

I have some brand names here but I can't go looking for them.

--
Ed Huntress

Abrasive sez:

" Soldering a boiler with tin based solder, as someone suggested, ... yeah
right. Boooom!"

Boooom, yer ass! Tell it to the folks at PM Research. I have 10 or 12
hours steaming time on a PMR boiler, riveted and sealed with 96% tin, 4%
silver (silver bearing solder) and no "Boooom" so far. How long does Boooom
take?

Bob Swinney


"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
John -

I think most have missed the boat - this is Model Steam engine -
Not jewelry.

I'd use the copper silver hard brazing silver solders. Pressure and
stress requires these.

Martin


Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.


--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

But the brass rod sold at the hardware store can be used to
to flow out, but it has a wider eutectic range. It's easier to
hold the part such that you can build up large beads like you
mentioned. I've never found joints like that to be terribly
strong so I prefer to keep on going and flow it out more.

The difference is in degree only I would say.

And there are silver solders formulated to make a big fillet. You'll see
references to them in British publications from time to time. They've been
used for building custom bicycles and even for building some race car
spaceframes.

I have some brand names here but I can't go looking for them.

--
Ed Huntress



Cool! Thanks to you and Jim for enlightening me. . My limited experience
with silver solder has never revealed the ability to build up a bead, or
filet. . I've always flowed it out well. What little I did accomplish
regards filets had a tendency to have serious shrinkage.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

But the brass rod sold at the hardware store can be used to
to flow out, but it has a wider eutectic range. It's easier to
hold the part such that you can build up large beads like you
mentioned. I've never found joints like that to be terribly
strong so I prefer to keep on going and flow it out more.

The difference is in degree only I would say.

And there are silver solders formulated to make a big fillet. You'll see
references to them in British publications from time to time. They've
been
used for building custom bicycles and even for building some race car
spaceframes.

I have some brand names here but I can't go looking for them.

--
Ed Huntress



Cool! Thanks to you and Jim for enlightening me. . My limited experience
with silver solder has never revealed the ability to build up a bead, or
filet. . I've always flowed it out well. What little I did accomplish
regards filets had a tendency to have serious shrinkage.

I hope you find what you need, Harold. BTW, in my experience, making a good
fillet with ordinary silver braze requires someone who really knows what
he's doing -- someone like Jim. I've had very little success with it. But I
have gotten good fillets with bronze (brass) brazing rod, with a little help
from my welding instructor.

--
Ed Huntress