First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that there
was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between two of
the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors. He said
that if we had this problem again that we would lose the use of one of
the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another expensive
call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it myself, thinking
that it might be a similar problem. I disconnected the wires to one
of the jacks he had worked on, and most of the jacks started working
again. Only three jacks don't work - the one where I made the
disconnection and two more on that end of the house. One of those two
is apparently the end of the line, since only one cable is leading to
it (the other two jacks have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house working
again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which cable is in
or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on the in cable.
The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a voltage across
working conductors? If so, what should the voltage be and is it AC or
DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email

Jud McCranie wrote:
First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that there
was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between two of
the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors. He said
that if we had this problem again that we would lose the use of one of
the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another expensive
call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it myself, thinking
that it might be a similar problem. I disconnected the wires to one
of the jacks he had worked on, and most of the jacks started working
again. Only three jacks don't work - the one where I made the
disconnection and two more on that end of the house. One of those two
is apparently the end of the line, since only one cable is leading to
it (the other two jacks have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house working
again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which cable is in
or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on the in cable.
The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a voltage across
working conductors? If so, what should the voltage be and is it AC or
DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email


You should see a dc voltage across a live pair. Anywhere from 15 to 50
volts.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

Jud McCranie wrote:

First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that there
was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between two of
the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors. He said
that if we had this problem again that we would lose the use of one of
the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another expensive
call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it myself, thinking
that it might be a similar problem. I disconnected the wires to one
of the jacks he had worked on, and most of the jacks started working
again. Only three jacks don't work - the one where I made the
disconnection and two more on that end of the house. One of those two
is apparently the end of the line, since only one cable is leading to
it (the other two jacks have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house working
again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which cable is in
or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on the in cable.
The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a voltage across
working conductors? If so, what should the voltage be and is it AC or
DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email
Before you go to a lot of trouble here .. check to see if any of the
little gold-plated connectors in the jacks are corroded. My whole
house went dead a few years ago, and I found that the installer(s) put
the wall jacks in with the gold connectors on the down side of the
jacks. One of the jacks which was on an outside wall had accumulated
enough condensation on a hot, muggy summer day to short the connection
with a few drops of condensate and eventually, it corroded the contacts.
If they had installed the jacks with the contacts up and the release
tab down, it probably never would have happened. My point is, check
every jack internally to see if there is any corrosion or moisture
causing your problem

In article ,
"__ Bob __" wrote:

Before you go to a lot of trouble here .. check to see if any of the
little gold-plated connectors in the jacks are corroded.

Good advice.

One of the jacks which was on an outside wall [and] had accumulated
enough condensation on a hot, muggy summer day to short the connection
with a few drops of condensate and eventually, it corroded the contacts.

This is a common cause for trouble but usually takes YEARS to accumulated
enough crud to affect service. The offending outlet is usually on an exterior
wall, below grade. I have found such bad jacks behind aquariums, live plants
and under windows. (potential moisture source)

the installer(s) put the wall jacks in with the gold connectors
on the down side of the jacks. If they had installed the jacks
with the contacts up and the release tab down, it probably
never would have happened.

Awesome! After all these years, yours is the first GOOD reason I've ever
heard for installing phone jacks properly! I had never considered your reason.

On the other hand, I have replaced countless corroded jacks, properly
installed, that I suspect inverse orientation would have had little effect.

check every jack internally to see if there is any
corrosion or moisture causing your problem

More good advice.

The OP's home is wired in a "loop" configuration. That is, a SINGLE run of
cable is LOOPED through each outlet (in-then-out). Of course, at the end is
what appears to be a SINGLE cable - the "dead" end.

Obviously (to many, I suspect), if the pair is opened at any point in the
cable, all outlets BEYOND the open will quit working. A short or other defect
ANYWHERE in the pair will affect ALL equipment on that line until the defect
is eliminated.

If the OP cannot find the defect and has only ONE phone line, he can switch to
the spare pair (yellow/black?) immediately ahead of the defect and move all
affected outlets to that pair to reactivate them. Good luck!
--

JR

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:57:13 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Jud McCranie wrote:
First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that there
was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between two of
the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors. He said
that if we had this problem again that we would lose the use of one of
the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another expensive
call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it myself, thinking
that it might be a similar problem. I disconnected the wires to one
of the jacks he had worked on, and most of the jacks started working
again. Only three jacks don't work - the one where I made the
disconnection and two more on that end of the house. One of those two
is apparently the end of the line, since only one cable is leading to
it (the other two jacks have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house working
again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which cable is in
or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on the in cable.
The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a voltage across
working conductors? If so, what should the voltage be and is it AC or
DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email


You should see a dc voltage across a live pair. Anywhere from 15 to 50
volts.


I can measure 50VDC on my phoneline, plus about 75VAC when the phone
rings.

Jeff
--
39 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

Jud McCranie wrote:
First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that there
was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between two of
the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors. He said
that if we had this problem again that we would lose the use of one of
the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another expensive
call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it myself, thinking
that it might be a similar problem. I disconnected the wires to one
of the jacks he had worked on, and most of the jacks started working
again. Only three jacks don't work - the one where I made the
disconnection and two more on that end of the house. One of those two
is apparently the end of the line, since only one cable is leading to
it (the other two jacks have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house working
again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which cable is in
or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on the in cable.
The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a voltage across
working conductors? If so, what should the voltage be and is it AC or
DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email

Assuming it's a standard analog telephone connection and not a digital
connection:

When the phone us hung up, about 48V DC across the connector wires. Red &
Green is one pair, Yellow and Black the ohter pair; do NOT get them crossed
or it'll get even more confusingg.

When you pick up a phone, there will be around 9 to 24V DC across the wires.
Thus, you can watch and see if the phones are connected to the ones you are
looking at.

If you get a phone call while you're measuring the voltage, it will be about
130 V ac across the wires.

Everything is current-limited for you, but there's still enough in ringing
voltage to give you a good jerk! So keep that in mind as you workg.

Pop`

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:57:13 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Jud McCranie wrote:
First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that
there was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between
two of the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors.
He said that if we had this problem again that we would lose the
use of one of the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another
expensive call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it
myself, thinking that it might be a similar problem. I
disconnected the wires to one of the jacks he had worked on, and
most of the jacks started working again. Only three jacks don't
work - the one where I made the disconnection and two more on that
end of the house. One of those two is apparently the end of the
line, since only one cable is leading to it (the other two jacks
have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house
working again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which
cable is in or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on
the in cable. The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a
voltage across working conductors? If so, what should the voltage
be and is it AC or DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email


You should see a dc voltage across a live pair. Anywhere from 15 to
50 volts.


I can measure 50VDC on my phoneline, plus about 75VAC when the phone
rings.

Jeff

Sounds reasonable. The 130Vac is superimposed on the 48VDC battery, so
normal meters have a hard time showing the numbers properly.

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:57:13 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:


You should see a dc voltage across a live pair. Anywhere from 15 to 50
volts.

Thanks, that enabled me to fix it. Most of the pairs didn't give any
reliable reading but then I found a pair with about 6 volts. I
wondered if that could be it. I kept checking until I found one with
53 volts, and used that, got it back. Thanks!
---
Replace you know what by j to email

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:25:16 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

If the OP cannot find the defect and has only ONE phone line, he can switch to
the spare pair (yellow/black?) immediately ahead of the defect and move all
affected outlets to that pair to reactivate them. Good luck!

I got the jack that matters working again, the kitchen wall phone. The
other two jacks are downline from that, but I didn't bother getting
them working since we haven't been using them anyway. If we decided
to try to use one of them, I know what to try.
---
Replace you know what by j to email

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:52:10 GMT, "Pop`"
wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:57:13 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Jud McCranie wrote:
First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that
there was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between
two of the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors.
He said that if we had this problem again that we would lose the
use of one of the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another
expensive call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it
myself, thinking that it might be a similar problem. I
disconnected the wires to one of the jacks he had worked on, and
most of the jacks started working again. Only three jacks don't
work - the one where I made the disconnection and two more on that
end of the house. One of those two is apparently the end of the
line, since only one cable is leading to it (the other two jacks
have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house
working again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which
cable is in or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on
the in cable. The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a
voltage across working conductors? If so, what should the voltage
be and is it AC or DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email


You should see a dc voltage across a live pair. Anywhere from 15 to
50 volts.


I can measure 50VDC on my phoneline, plus about 75VAC when the phone
rings.

Jeff

Sounds reasonable. The 130Vac is superimposed on the 48VDC battery, so
normal meters have a hard time showing the numbers properly.



Could be. I should check that with an O-scope sometime.
--
39 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:50:44 GMT, "Pop`"
wrote:

Jud McCranie wrote:
First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that there
was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between two of
the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors. He said
that if we had this problem again that we would lose the use of one of
the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another expensive
call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it myself, thinking
that it might be a similar problem. I disconnected the wires to one
of the jacks he had worked on, and most of the jacks started working
again. Only three jacks don't work - the one where I made the
disconnection and two more on that end of the house. One of those two
is apparently the end of the line, since only one cable is leading to
it (the other two jacks have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house working
again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which cable is in
or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on the in cable.
The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a voltage across
working conductors? If so, what should the voltage be and is it AC or
DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email

Assuming it's a standard analog telephone connection and not a digital
connection:

When the phone us hung up, about 48V DC across the connector wires. Red &
Green is one pair, Yellow and Black the ohter pair; do NOT get them crossed
or it'll get even more confusingg.


And if you have 6-conductor wire, the third pair is blue/white.

That is the standard color code. It may not match what you actually
have.

I remember one house that had these 3 pairs:

green/green stripe
blue/blue stripe
orange/orange stripe

I don't remember which one was actually used. The house I'm in how
uses standard colors.

When you pick up a phone, there will be around 9 to 24V DC across the wires.
Thus, you can watch and see if the phones are connected to the ones you are
looking at.

If you get a phone call while you're measuring the voltage, it will be about
130 V ac across the wires.

Everything is current-limited for you, but there's still enough in ringing
voltage to give you a good jerk! So keep that in mind as you workg.

Pop`



--
39 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

And if you have 6-conductor wire

AKA 3-pair cable.

the third pair is blue/white.

Or it could be considered the FIRST pair.

That is the standard color code.

Uh, "standard" in this context is debatable.

R/G (Red/Green)
Y/Bk (Yellow/Black)

....WAS the color code (standard) used in basic station wiring for many, MANY
years. Most RJ11/14 jacks available today still use these colors. This fact
confuses MANY do-it-yourselfers when they replace a jack in a home wired with
more contemporary cable:

1 - White/Blue (usually green/red on the back of a jack)
2 - White/Orange (usually black/yellow on the back of a jack)
3 - White/Green
4 - White/Brown
5 - White/Slate
6 - Red/Blue
7 - Red/Orange
8 - Red/Green
9 - Red/Brown
10 - Red/Slate

It may not match what you actually have.

You said it. Then there's the homes built during the first 6-7 years after
the breakup of The Mean, Evil Bell System Monopoly (1984): Most of these
homes were (and still are) wired with non-standard wire with NO twist =
crosstalk if two lines occupy the same cable.

Just the other day I worked on yet another house with immediate-post-1984
cable that was finished by a clueless person. Looking for red/green in the
cable, and not finding a red, they used the ORANGE conductor of the
white/orange pair. Of course, they grabbed the green conductor of pair 3 (see
above) so now there are two, split pairs in the four-pair cable.

Further screwing-up in their attempt to connect to the yellow/black leads on
the back of the jack, they used the RING+ conductor of the two, remaining
intact pairs. IOW, all four pairs were "split". Not bad with one line but a
total disaster with more than one line. (The fix for such a travesty usually
involves removing and rewiring EVERY jack in the home.)

I remember one house that had these 3 pairs:

green/green stripe
blue/blue stripe
orange/orange stripe

You have it right, but ordered 3,1,2.

I don't remember which one was actually used. The house I'm in how
uses standard colors.

Suffice it to say that the "standard" is NOT r/g + y/b anymore. That works
just fine with one or two lines but, when building a 900-pair cable, it didn't
fly worth a darn. So "they" invented the scheme I listed above (to pair 10).
I thought I wouldn't bore you with the color code for pairs 11-25. g

Try this: R+R/G+Y/Br (red "super group" + red/green binder [group] +
yellow/brown pair. That's pair 794, I think. (I hate cable splicing.)

Digital Phone Servicetm? Fine. Yeah, right. Show me a DIGITAL phone.

Talk about backwards-compatibility: Buy a 1930s-vintage telephone at a garage
sale. Assuming it is in working condition, you can take it home, connect it
and take/make calls today. Whoopee!
--

JR

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:50:40 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

And if you have 6-conductor wire

AKA 3-pair cable.

the third pair is blue/white.

Or it could be considered the FIRST pair.


Not when "first" is already being used for the one in the middle
(red/green).

That is the standard color code.

Uh, "standard" in this context is debatable.


I just bought some 6-wire phone cable. The colors are white, black,
red, green, yellow, blue.

BTW, It wasn't actually for phone use but holiday light control. Of
course, the cable didn't know that in the store :-)

R/G (Red/Green)
Y/Bk (Yellow/Black)

...WAS the color code (standard) used in basic station wiring for many, MANY
years. Most RJ11/14 jacks available today still use these colors. This fact
confuses MANY do-it-yourselfers when they replace a jack in a home wired with
more contemporary cable:

1 - White/Blue (usually green/red on the back of a jack)
2 - White/Orange (usually black/yellow on the back of a jack)
3 - White/Green
4 - White/Brown
5 - White/Slate
6 - Red/Blue
7 - Red/Orange
8 - Red/Green
9 - Red/Brown
10 - Red/Slate


That does sound more practical when you need that many pairs.

It may not match what you actually have.

You said it. Then there's the homes built during the first 6-7 years after
the breakup of The Mean, Evil Bell System Monopoly (1984): Most of these
homes were (and still are) wired with non-standard wire with NO twist =
crosstalk if two lines occupy the same cable.

Just the other day I worked on yet another house with immediate-post-1984
cable that was finished by a clueless person. Looking for red/green in the
cable, and not finding a red, they used the ORANGE conductor of the
white/orange pair. Of course, they grabbed the green conductor of pair 3 (see
above) so now there are two, split pairs in the four-pair cable.

Further screwing-up in their attempt to connect to the yellow/black leads on
the back of the jack, they used the RING+ conductor of the two, remaining
intact pairs. IOW, all four pairs were "split". Not bad with one line but a
total disaster with more than one line. (The fix for such a travesty usually
involves removing and rewiring EVERY jack in the home.)

I remember one house that had these 3 pairs:

green/green stripe
blue/blue stripe
orange/orange stripe

You have it right, but ordered 3,1,2.

I don't remember which one was actually used. The house I'm in how
uses standard colors.


I do remember I had to find the correct pair once, to connect a jack.
The house (built around 1969) had wires going to each bedroom, but no
jacks (there was only one phone installed then, a wall phone which was
hardwired). I used a 300-ohm speaker as a tester.

Suffice it to say that the "standard" is NOT r/g + y/b anymore. That works
just fine with one or two lines but, when building a 900-pair cable,

At that point, I'm trying to imagine how hard that cable would be to
handle.

it didn't
fly worth a darn. So "they" invented the scheme I listed above (to pair 10).
I thought I wouldn't bore you with the color code for pairs 11-25. g

Try this: R+R/G+Y/Br (red "super group" + red/green binder [group] +
yellow/brown pair. That's pair 794, I think. (I hate cable splicing.)

Digital Phone Servicetm? Fine. Yeah, right. Show me a DIGITAL phone.


In the same way, there's no digital TV sets. Both sound and light need
to be in analog, suitable for human senses.

Talk about backwards-compatibility: Buy a 1930s-vintage telephone at a garage
sale. Assuming it is in working condition, you can take it home, connect it
and take/make calls today. Whoopee!

An old phone would be a way to keep little kids from making calls.
They won't be able to find the pushbuttons.
--
39 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

Talk about backwards-compatibility: Buy a 1930s-vintage telephone
at a garage sale. Assuming it is in working condition, you can take
it home, connect it and take/make calls today. Whoopee!

An old phone would be a way to keep little kids from making calls.
They won't be able to find the pushbuttons.

You said it.

Recently, I read/heard that someone performed a test: Individually,
10-year-old kids were placed in a room with a rotary-dial phone and asked to
dial 911. Most of them were UNABLE to do so.

Kinda makes ya feel old... sigh
--

JR

One more question: does it matter if the positive voltage goes to the
red or green wire in the jack? Can it go either way, or is there a
certain way it should go?
---
Replace you know what by j to email

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:50:40 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

Talk about backwards-compatibility: Buy a 1930s-vintage telephone at a garage
sale. Assuming it is in working condition, you can take it home, connect it
and take/make calls today. Whoopee!

I have such a phone and it used to work, but it quit working a few
years ago. Is it really still compatible, because back in those days
I think it required three wires, one was a ground, one was for the
voice, and one was for ringing the bell, IIRC.
---
Replace you know what by j to email

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:58:24 -0500, Jud McCranie
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:50:40 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

Talk about backwards-compatibility: Buy a 1930s-vintage telephone at a garage
sale. Assuming it is in working condition, you can take it home, connect it
and take/make calls today. Whoopee!

I have such a phone and it used to work, but it quit working a few
years ago. Is it really still compatible, because back in those days
I think it required three wires, one was a ground, one was for the
voice, and one was for ringing the bell, IIRC.
---
Replace you know what by j to email

The separate ringing wire may have had something to do with some party
lines. I don't know how you could get it to work on a 2-wire line.

If you connect just 2 wires (skip the ringing wire), can you talk and
hear on it?
--
38 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:23:03 -0500, Jud McCranie
wrote:

One more question: does it matter if the positive voltage goes to the
red or green wire in the jack? Can it go either way, or is there a
certain way it should go?

I checked my phone line where it comes into the house, and found
positive on green. I think that's the "right" way to do it.

Most electronic phones have internal rectifiers, so they don't care.
Some early tone phones do care. Do you have one of those?

I'd do it right, if possible. Someone might want to use one of those
old phones someday.

---
Replace you know what by j to email

1. I choose not to remind people of inappropriately replying by email.
This is not email.

2. The correct sig separator line is "-- ". Some newsreaders respond
properly to that.
--
38 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:55:57 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

I checked my phone line where it comes into the house, and found
positive on green. I think that's the "right" way to do it.

After I wrote the message, I realized that the two active wires were a
white/blue pair, even though I had to strip one of them. I put the
white/blue stripe to green, which a website says is standard.

Most electronic phones have internal rectifiers, so they don't care.
Some early tone phones do care. Do you have one of those?

I have a recent electronic one, so it probably doesn't care.

2. The correct sig separator line is "-- ". Some newsreaders respond
properly to that.

I didn't know that, and I corrected it.
--
Replace you know what by j to email

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:43:59 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

If you connect just 2 wires (skip the ringing wire), can you talk and
hear on it?

I don't know, it has been a few years since it was working. It is
still in this office.
--
Replace you know what by j to email

Jim Redelfs wrote in
:

You said it.

Recently, I read/heard that someone performed a test: Individually,
10-year-old kids were placed in a room with a rotary-dial phone and
asked to dial 911. Most of them were UNABLE to do so.

Kinda makes ya feel old... sigh

When I was 10 years old in 1966, I was locked
out of the house and went to a next door neighbor
to use their phone to call my aunt who had a key.

They handed me a Trimline with a TouchTone dialing pad
and I looked at it and I was totally lost, had to ask them
to dial for me...

WHD

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 04:55:42 GMT, Wallace Dickson
wrote:

They handed me a Trimline with a TouchTone dialing pad
and I looked at it and I was totally lost, had to ask them
to dial for me...

When the time changed to standard time about three weeks ago, I spent
at least 20 minutes (perhaps 30) trying to figure out how to set the
time. I couldn't do it. My wife couldn't either. I finally had to
refer to the 26-page owner's manual. I have some wall clocks that I
just use a finger to move the hands to reset the time.
--
Replace you know what by j to email

In article ,
Jud McCranie wrote:

One more question: does it matter if the positive voltage goes to the
red or green wire in the jack?

Probably not. Only the very old Western Electric Touchtonetm sets required
proper polarity. If the polarity is reversed, these increasingly scarce
telephones can receive calls and be talked on but their keys will not sound
when depressed.

Can it go either way, or is there a certain way it should go?

Color to color is the proper technique.

If the pair's polarity is reversed somewhere in the line before it enters the
premise, you can correct the polarity at the interface. All wiring beyond
should conform to the standard: green/red or white/blue should go to the
greed/red terminals on the jack. Black/yellow or white/orange should go to
the black/yellow terminals.

If connecting a block at a tap point (a loop in a loop-wired installation) be
sure to also splice the pairs "through". IOW, make a three-way connection to
the pair at the location to feed that jack, making sure to splice-through
extra/unused matching pairs.
--

JR

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

positive on green. I think that's the "right" way to do it.

With a white/green pair, it's right. With the older "standard" red/green
pair, the RED is the correct conductor for voltage.

Solid/good continuity to ground with no voltage should occupy the "tip"
conductor. (green of a red/green pair or white of a white/blue)

The "ring" conductor should have -48-52VDC-to-ground on it. You'll notice I
said NEGATIVE 48VDC. Everything in the C.O. battery room is labeled as
NEGATIVE. You tell me. sigh

Most electronic phones have internal rectifiers, so they don't care.

Originally called a "polarity guard" when first introduced, you are correct.

I'd do it right, if possible. Someone might want to use one of those
old phones someday.

Good advise, always.

1. I choose not to remind people of inappropriately replying by email.
This is not email.

I find email replies to my usenet postings a bit annoying. But, only a bit.

2. The correct sig separator line is "-- ".

That is [hyphen] [hyphen] [space] [return] by itself at the beginning of a new
line. That line and everything that follows should NOT be copied/quoted when
using the quote function of a "compliant" newsreader.

Some newsreaders respond properly to that.

Most good newsreaders should. Try quoting this message. (You don't have to
SEND it.) If my sig (smiley, "JR", etc) below is quoted, your newsreader is
NOT compliant with the standard. It's no big deal but quoting sigs is a waste
of bandwidth and is usually extraneous to the topic being discussed.

Tomorrow we will discuss lower-ASCII artwork. Class dismissed. big grin
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 09:21:58 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

If connecting a block at a tap point (a loop in a loop-wired installation) be
sure to also splice the pairs "through". IOW, make a three-way connection to
the pair at the location to feed that jack, making sure to splice-through
extra/unused matching pairs.

OK, but I don't understand what you mean by a three-way connection.
The jack I got working was inside the loop. The blue/white pair of
conductors to the red/green of the jack got it working. For the time
being, I didn't try to get the next jack downline working, since we
don't use it. So how should the 3-way connection be?
--
Replace you know what by j to email

In article ,
Jud McCranie wrote:

I have such a phone and it used to work, but it quit working a few
years ago. Is it really still compatible, because back in those days
I think it required three wires, one was a ground, one was for the
voice, and one was for ringing the bell, IIRC.

Originally, as fed from a Central Office, telephones required only ONE
conductor.

The battery current left the C.O. to the customer's set (many miles was and
still is common) on a single conductor. There, it passed-through the set to a
ground rod. The circuit was VERY noisy, requiring that user speak very loudly
or yell in order to be heard.

It was eventually discovered (1890s?) that if a PAIR of wires is used, the
circuit noise is GREATLY reduced. Try grounding your phone wire while you're
using it. The party at the other end probably won't be able to hear you at
all.

Use of "the pair" improved a telco's signaling capacity, too.

Today there are four types of Custom or Distinctive Ring codes: Normal, two
shorts, short-long-short and two longs. This was standardized in the 19th
century allowing four subscribers to be served by a single line.

The Smith's were a regular ring, the Jones's were two short rings, the
Peterson's were a short-long-short series of rings and the Johnson's were two,
LONG rings.

This allowed the SIGNALING of up to four users on a single conduction. The
use of a PAIR allowed for signaling up to EIGHT subscribers. This
technological innovation required the special wiring of the set(s) connected
to the pair. Signaling current for the four TIP subscribers (with properly
configured phone sets) was sent down the TIP side of the line, through the
phone and to ground. Ringing current was sent down the RING side of the line
and would ring only those phones properly wired for a RING party service. An
improperly-wired phone (often a bootleg) would ring when current was sent down
EITHER side of the pair.

On old, three-wire base cord phones, the third conductor you describe is ONLY
for a ground connection in case the phone is wired to ring as partyline set.

On four-wire corded phones, the second pair (yellow/black) was for dial light
current fed from a small transformer somewhere in the home.

It still only takes a PAIR of conductors to service a POTS (Plain Old
Telephone Service) set and it has been that way since the late 19th century.
All the other wires are extra.
---
Replace you know what by j to email

Your sig delimiter is incorrect. I just described the proper syntax in a
previous article. Good luck!
--

JR

Where are ya, Ma, when
we really need ya?

In article ,
Jud McCranie wrote:

OK, but I don't understand what you mean by a three-way connection.
The jack I got working was inside the loop. The blue/white pair of
conductors to the red/green of the jack got it working. For the time
being, I didn't try to get the next jack downline working, since we
don't use it. So how should the 3-way connection be?

If you don't want the stuff "downstream" to work, or there is trouble on the
pair beyond that location, your connection at that location is known as a
"dead end", not a three-way. If you don't "connect through" the conductors of
the loop, you are "dedicating" the pair at that point. This is basic cable
splicing and applies to much common electrical wiring as well as telephony.

If you DO connect all like (matching) conductors, you are making a "tap" or
"three-way" (in-jack-out) connection. This is often done by placing BOTH
like-colored conductors behind the appropriate terminal screw of the device
(jack). Twisting them before placing behind the washer is poor technique.
Placing individual "hooks" of tinned conductor, each behind its own washer,
then slightly expanding/loosening/opening the hook before seating the screw,
is next-to-best. The best tap technique, from a reliability and ease of
trouble shooting standpoint is to connect a short length (8-12-inches) of wire
to the jack - a "stub". Then, using two jellied 3-conductor, solderless
connectors (Scotchloktm), cut-in/splice-in the stub to the loop - a
three-way connection.

A loop-wired home is probably the most confusing component to a DIYer doing
some of their first phone wiring work.

It is a VERY primitive scheme: If the house just disappeared, you would have
one, LONG length of cable. What appears to be two cables in an outlet box (or
plaster ring) is really just a LOOP of that ONE cable, the bulk of which is
permanently behind the walls and ceilings of the premise. Jacks are merely
TAPPED onto a SINGLE pair in that single cable at several points along the
cable. Lengths of cable can be tapped, or three-wayed, onto the main cable at
any point to serve one or more outlets.

After THIS class big grin, you'll want to attend my next one where we'll
cover the installation of a DPST switch that silences every station on the
teenline until the kids' homework and piano practicing are done. That can be
done from an SNID but having the switch mounted on the kitchen wall is the
most convenient.
--

JR

No project too small
All projects too big

"Jim Redelfs" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jud McCranie wrote:

I have such a phone and it used to work, but it quit working a few
years ago. Is it really still compatible, because back in those days
I think it required three wires, one was a ground, one was for the
voice, and one was for ringing the bell, IIRC.

Originally, as fed from a Central Office, telephones required only ONE
conductor.

The battery current left the C.O. to the customer's set (many miles was
and
still is common) on a single conductor. There, it passed-through the set
to a
ground rod. The circuit was VERY noisy, requiring that user speak very
loudly
or yell in order to be heard.

It was eventually discovered (1890s?) that if a PAIR of wires is used, the
circuit noise is GREATLY reduced. Try grounding your phone wire while
you're
using it. The party at the other end probably won't be able to hear you
at
all.

Use of "the pair" improved a telco's signaling capacity, too.

Today there are four types of Custom or Distinctive Ring codes: Normal,
two
shorts, short-long-short and two longs. This was standardized in the 19th
century allowing four subscribers to be served by a single line.

The Smith's were a regular ring, the Jones's were two short rings, the
Peterson's were a short-long-short series of rings and the Johnson's were
two,
LONG rings.

This allowed the SIGNALING of up to four users on a single conduction.
The
use of a PAIR allowed for signaling up to EIGHT subscribers. This
technological innovation required the special wiring of the set(s)
connected
to the pair. Signaling current for the four TIP subscribers (with
properly
configured phone sets) was sent down the TIP side of the line, through the
phone and to ground. Ringing current was sent down the RING side of the
line
and would ring only those phones properly wired for a RING party service.
An
improperly-wired phone (often a bootleg) would ring when current was sent
down
EITHER side of the pair.

On old, three-wire base cord phones, the third conductor you describe is
ONLY
for a ground connection in case the phone is wired to ring as partyline
set.

On four-wire corded phones, the second pair (yellow/black) was for dial
light
current fed from a small transformer somewhere in the home.

It still only takes a PAIR of conductors to service a POTS (Plain Old
Telephone Service) set and it has been that way since the late 19th
century.
All the other wires are extra.
---
Replace you know what by j to email

Your sig delimiter is incorrect. I just described the proper syntax in a
previous article. Good luck!
--

JR

Where are ya, Ma, when
we really need ya?

Good information ! The only thing you didn't cover is ECHO.


Happy modeming;
Bill

Jud McCranie wrote:
First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that there
was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between two of
the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors. He said
that if we had this problem again that we would lose the use of one of
the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another expensive
call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it myself, thinking
that it might be a similar problem. I disconnected the wires to one
of the jacks he had worked on, and most of the jacks started working
again. Only three jacks don't work - the one where I made the
disconnection and two more on that end of the house. One of those two
is apparently the end of the line, since only one cable is leading to
it (the other two jacks have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house working
again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which cable is in
or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on the in cable.
The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a voltage across
working conductors? If so, what should the voltage be and is it AC or
DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email
Hmmm,
Forget it and go cordless on that part of the house. My house has one
base cordelss and on it, we have 4 handsets. If I need, I can add more
handsets.

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:00:10 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article ,
Jud McCranie wrote:

OK, but I don't understand what you mean by a three-way connection.
The jack I got working was inside the loop. The blue/white pair of
conductors to the red/green of the jack got it working. For the time
being, I didn't try to get the next jack downline working, since we
don't use it. So how should the 3-way connection be?

If you don't want the stuff "downstream" to work, or there is trouble on the
pair beyond that location, your connection at that location is known as a
"dead end", not a three-way. If you don't "connect through" the conductors of
the loop, you are "dedicating" the pair at that point. This is basic cable
splicing and applies to much common electrical wiring as well as telephony.

If you DO connect all like (matching) conductors, you are making a "tap" or
"three-way" (in-jack-out) connection. This is often done by placing BOTH
like-colored conductors behind the appropriate terminal screw of the device
(jack). Twisting them before placing behind the washer is poor technique.
Placing individual "hooks" of tinned conductor, each behind its own washer,
then slightly expanding/loosening/opening the hook before seating the screw,
is next-to-best. The best tap technique, from a reliability and ease of
trouble shooting standpoint is to connect a short length (8-12-inches) of wire
to the jack - a "stub". Then, using two jellied 3-conductor, solderless
connectors (Scotchloktm), cut-in/splice-in the stub to the loop - a
three-way connection.

A loop-wired home is probably the most confusing component to a DIYer doing
some of their first phone wiring work.

It is a VERY primitive scheme: If the house just disappeared, you would have
one, LONG length of cable. What appears to be two cables in an outlet box (or
plaster ring) is really just a LOOP of that ONE cable, the bulk of which is
permanently behind the walls and ceilings of the premise. Jacks are merely
TAPPED onto a SINGLE pair in that single cable at several points along the
cable. Lengths of cable can be tapped, or three-wayed, onto the main cable at
any point to serve one or more outlets.

After THIS class big grin, you'll want to attend my next one where we'll
cover the installation of a DPST switch that silences every station on the
teenline until the kids' homework and piano practicing are done. That can be
done from an SNID but having the switch mounted on the kitchen wall is the
most convenient.

That reminds me of the "ring control"cords" I've used in the past.
These consist of a DPDT switch and a full-wave rectifier. When only DC
is passed to the phone it works but won't ring.
--
37 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:38:06 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:

Jud McCranie wrote:
First some background. Several months ago the phones in our house
went out. I figured out that it was a wiring problem inside the
house. I called the phone guy to fix it. He said that our phone
jacks are in series on two four-conductor cables. He said that there
was a short. At one of the phones (it must have been between two of
the phones), he switched to the other pair of conductors. He said
that if we had this problem again that we would lose the use of one of
the jacks, I think it was at the end of the line.

Recently our phones went out again, and rather than another expensive
call to the phone company, I decided to try to fix it myself, thinking
that it might be a similar problem. I disconnected the wires to one
of the jacks he had worked on, and most of the jacks started working
again. Only three jacks don't work - the one where I made the
disconnection and two more on that end of the house. One of those two
is apparently the end of the line, since only one cable is leading to
it (the other two jacks have two cables).

I need to get one or two of the jacks on that end of the house working
again, if I can. The problem is that I can't tell which cable is in
or out. And if there is a pair of live conductors on the in cable.
The only equipment is a volt/ohm meter. Is there a voltage across
working conductors? If so, what should the voltage be and is it AC or
DC?

---
Replace you know what by j to email
Hmmm,
Forget it and go cordless on that part of the house. My house has one
base cordelss and on it, we have 4 handsets. If I need, I can add more
handsets.

Some of these claim to accept up to 10 handsets, up to 2 of which can
be active simultaneously.
--
37 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"All your western theologies, the whole mythology of them,
are based on the concept of God as a senile delinquent."
-- Tennessee Williams

Jim Redelfs wrote:

The "ring" conductor should have -48-52VDC-to-ground on it. You'll notice I
said NEGATIVE 48VDC. Everything in the C.O. battery room is labeled as
NEGATIVE. You tell me. sigh

Corrosion and oxidation are less likely to occur on lines that are
negative to ground than positive. Hence, outside telephone plant is
positive ground.

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

That reminds me of the "ring control"cords" I've used in the past.
These consist of a DPDT switch and a full-wave rectifier. When only DC
is passed to the phone it works but won't ring.

I hired-on as one of Omaha's first, male long distance operators with the old
Northwestern Bell Telephone Company. Affirmative Action was 4-months old.

The job was right out of The History Channel: 20-30 of us, elbow-to-elbow, on
non-padded (wicker seat) chairs plugging cords into jacks on a half-block
long, black switchboard. I began wearing the "modern" (Mercury 7 era)
headset. It was eventually replaced by a Plantronics "Starset".

It was a trip. After several INCREDIBLY boring months of this, I amazed all
the women that had been plugging-away for 30 years, and had never seen such a
thing, by drawing an half-inch long ARC by leaning on the ringing key and
using another cord as the ground. Ahhhhh, the good, old days...

TeleTrivia: Although the first telephone operators were men, they were
eventually replaced by women because women were less likely to swear at the
customers or whittle on the switchboard.
--

JR

In article ,
"Berkshire Bill" wrote:

Good information !

Thanks. I'll never be called "the quiet type"!

The only thing you didn't cover is ECHO.

Ya got me. What's that?
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel

In article ,
Bob wrote:

The "ring" conductor should have -48-52VDC-to-ground on it. You'll
notice I said NEGATIVE 48VDC. Everything in the C.O. battery room
is labeled as NEGATIVE. You tell me. sigh

Corrosion and oxidation are less likely to occur on lines that are
negative to ground than positive. Hence, outside telephone plant is
positive ground.

Thank-you. It's probably basic electricity but I don't recall ever knowing
that.

What in incredibly OLD technology. What other, equally old technology do we
use so massively, on a continuous basis? Electricity? The internal
combustion engine?
--

JR

Where are ya, Ma, when
we really need ya?

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:19:25 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

Your sig delimiter is incorrect. I just described the proper syntax in a
previous article. Good luck!

I thought I fixed that.
--
Replace you know what by j to email

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:00:10 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

If you DO connect all like (matching) conductors, you are making a "tap" or
"three-way" (in-jack-out) connection. This is often done by placing BOTH
like-colored conductors behind the appropriate terminal screw of the device
(jack).

OK, I think I understand that now. I thought that a 3-way might be
two wires going in and one the same and one different going out.

It is a VERY primitive scheme: If the house just disappeared, you would have
one, LONG length of cable.

In our case we have two cables, according to the phone guy.

See if this sig is OK, I added a space after the dashes.
--
Replace you know what by j to email

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:38:06 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:

Forget it and go cordless on that part of the house.

We have a cordless, but I don't like cordless phones (poor sound
quality, etc, etc, etc).
--
Replace you know what by j to email

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:46:48 -0500, Jud McCranie
wrote:

Thanks to everyone who replied. Although some of the discussion was
over my head, I learned enough to get the much-needed kitchen wall
phone/answering machine working again. I know what to do to try to
get the others back, if needed.
--
Replace you know what by j to email

In article ,
Jud McCranie wrote:

See if this sig is OK, I added a space after the dashes.

That did the trick!
--

JR