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#1
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Any help greatly appreciated! I had phone service reactivated to my home
(giving up cell phone)-- the phone line (black) comes into my wall to my basement rafter, consists of two plain wires that each connect to a pole (bolt with nut) on a thing that is connected to a basement rafter. Ok, so I know I connect the wires from the phone lines to those two poles where the main line comes in, but is the order important? What I mean is, I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green? Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company. Thank you in advance, Randall |
#2
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
See ==== inline:
"Beowulf" wrote in message newsan.2006.04.06.21.53.21.398948@wayoftheancien ts.trail... .... I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green? ==== It depends on a lot of things, but mixing them up would -probably- never be noticed. Keep red to red and green to green and you should never have a problem. FWIW, with the phone hung up, the red lead should be negative w/r to the green wire. There's a bout a 99% chance the wires coming in from the telco will have that DC polarity correct, but when things seem 'funny' it's worth checking out. If the wires were reversed, it will NOT cause any damage to anything. The worst would likely happen is some really cheap phone equipment might not count the incoming ringing voltage properly since it's 90Vac riding on top of 48V DC. I'd be surprised if you ever noticed it, though since equipment hasn't been that cheaply made in some time. It takes all of 4 cheap diodes to make the equipment immune to polarity of the wires g. Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? ==== No, not for standard, plain old telephone service. You can cut them off even with the jacket if you wish to get them out of the way. Only the two wires are necessary. Actually, some people use the other two wires for intercoms, things like that. But you don't need them. And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? ==== IFF you had a key system or something that used them, rather than just plain old service like you probably have, it would matter. For some systems, there ARE uses for those wires but you're not likely to have that type if you're just wiring up plain old telephones. I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. ==== Just for grins, when you checked it at the "demarc", did you make sure you had YOUR house wiring disconnected? To be certain, always disconnect the house wiring from the demarc before testing. Also, don't let them come into your house without telling them you are NOT authorizing any charges of any kind for them. I let one clown in thru my garage doors once, and he looked up at the box on the way by, and commented on the neat wiring job. I received a BILL for "inside services" from the telco! They didn't get away with it! Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. ==== Repair -should- do exactly what you did: disconnect the house wiring, and then put their butt-set on it to see if there's dialtone there and that the voltage is in spec. If it's not, the problem will be on their lines somewhere between where they connected the butt-set and the telco. They do NOT have to go into your house for any of that. If they go inside, then you're likely going to get charged for it, even if all they do is tell you that there's a short "somewhere" in your wiring. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, ==== Well, you don't -have- to be on your own. They'll probably be glad to fix it, but it's going to cost you. So, you're doing the right thing. frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company. Thank you in advance, Randall Best of luck, & HTH, Pop |
#3
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Try ----------- www.homephonewiring.com/index.html
"Pop" wrote in message news:LDgZf.2080$Vy3.812@trndny02... See ==== inline: "Beowulf" wrote in message newsan.2006.04.06.21.53.21.398948@wayoftheancien ts.trail... ... I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green? ==== It depends on a lot of things, but mixing them up would -probably- never be noticed. Keep red to red and green to green and you should never have a problem. FWIW, with the phone hung up, the red lead should be negative w/r to the green wire. There's a bout a 99% chance the wires coming in from the telco will have that DC polarity correct, but when things seem 'funny' it's worth checking out. If the wires were reversed, it will NOT cause any damage to anything. The worst would likely happen is some really cheap phone equipment might not count the incoming ringing voltage properly since it's 90Vac riding on top of 48V DC. I'd be surprised if you ever noticed it, though since equipment hasn't been that cheaply made in some time. It takes all of 4 cheap diodes to make the equipment immune to polarity of the wires g. Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? ==== No, not for standard, plain old telephone service. You can cut them off even with the jacket if you wish to get them out of the way. Only the two wires are necessary. Actually, some people use the other two wires for intercoms, things like that. But you don't need them. And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? ==== IFF you had a key system or something that used them, rather than just plain old service like you probably have, it would matter. For some systems, there ARE uses for those wires but you're not likely to have that type if you're just wiring up plain old telephones. I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. ==== Just for grins, when you checked it at the "demarc", did you make sure you had YOUR house wiring disconnected? To be certain, always disconnect the house wiring from the demarc before testing. Also, don't let them come into your house without telling them you are NOT authorizing any charges of any kind for them. I let one clown in thru my garage doors once, and he looked up at the box on the way by, and commented on the neat wiring job. I received a BILL for "inside services" from the telco! They didn't get away with it! Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. ==== Repair -should- do exactly what you did: disconnect the house wiring, and then put their butt-set on it to see if there's dialtone there and that the voltage is in spec. If it's not, the problem will be on their lines somewhere between where they connected the butt-set and the telco. They do NOT have to go into your house for any of that. If they go inside, then you're likely going to get charged for it, even if all they do is tell you that there's a short "somewhere" in your wiring. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, ==== Well, you don't -have- to be on your own. They'll probably be glad to fix it, but it's going to cost you. So, you're doing the right thing. frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company. Thank you in advance, Randall Best of luck, & HTH, Pop |
#4
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Beowulf wrote:
Any help greatly appreciated! I had phone service reactivated to my home (giving up cell phone)-- the phone line (black) comes into my wall to my basement rafter, consists of two plain wires that each connect to a pole (bolt with nut) on a thing that is connected to a basement rafter. Ok, so I know I connect the wires from the phone lines to those two poles where the main line comes in, but is the order important? What I mean is, I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green? Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company. Thank you in advance, Randall Have your taken a look at one of the many web sites about telephone wiring? http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/phone_wiring.html http://www.hometech.com/learn/wiringst.html http://telecom.hellodirect.com/docs/...s.1.040401.asp |
#5
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:30:03 +0000, Pop inscribed to the world:
.... ==== It depends on a lot of things, but mixing them up would -probably- never be noticed. Keep red to red and green to green and you should never have a problem. Do you mean keep all the red wires from the inside phone lines on the same pole/terminal of the (not sure what to call it) junction box, and the green wires on the other terminal? FWIW, with the phone hung up, the red lead should be negative w/r to the green wire. There's a bout a 99% chance the wires coming in from the telco will have that DC polarity correct, but when things seem 'funny' it's worth checking out. You lost me at hello. ==== No, not for standard, plain old telephone service. You can cut them off even with the jacket if you wish to get them out of the way. Only the two wires are necessary. Actually, some people use the other two wires for intercoms, things like that. But you don't need them. Ok i will just use the green and red wires where I connect them to the junction/terminal poles on my basement rafter (where the main phone line's two wires attach to those two poles [bolts with nuts]) ==== Just for grins, when you checked it at the "demarc", did you make sure you had YOUR house wiring disconnected? To be certain, always disconnect the house wiring from the demarc before testing. ok i did not know that. Also, don't let them come into your house without telling them you are NOT authorizing any charges of any kind for them. I let one clown in thru my garage doors once, and he looked up at the box on the way by, and commented on the neat wiring job. I received a BILL for "inside services" from the telco! They didn't get away with it! .... Good to know, I will keep them out of my house! |
#6
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 23:05:27 +0000, Rich256 inscribed to the world:
... Have your taken a look at one of the many web sites about telephone wiring? http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/phone_wiring.html http://www.hometech.com/learn/wiringst.html http://telecom.hellodirect.com/docs/...s.1.040401.asp Yes, actually I had looked at and printed out all three of those websites before posting here. The info at those sites was mostly over my head, beyond my wiring needs, did not answer some real basics that I asked here, but I did glean some useful info, mostly about the need for just red and green, that is a 2-wire system is all I need for my simply home phones. |
#7
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:53:21 -0500, Beowulf
wrote: Any help greatly appreciated! I had phone service reactivated to my home (giving up cell phone)-- the phone line (black) comes into my wall to my basement rafter, consists of two plain wires that each connect to a pole (bolt with nut) on a thing that is connected to a basement rafter. In answer to a question I had here I learned that thing is the surge bypasser or surpressor (probably not its real name. I forget that.) Ok, so I know I connect the wires from the phone lines to those two poles where the main line comes in, but is the order important? What I mean is, I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green? Yes. I've heard it is different on (some?) later phones, but on real phones, Western Electric phones**, and those that are good imitations, if you don't have red and green right, you can talk and listen but on touch-tone, you can't dial. **Western Electric are the phones that God intended, and are the actual phones used in Heaven. All the others are Satanic. Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? If I anticpated failure, or if I were using the wire for something that required more amperage, that's what I would do. That's what I do do. I might leave the black and yellow unconnected now. If I were running new wire, I might run more than 4-conductor. Part of my house, from 1979 already, is run with 20 conductor wire, anticpating whatever they invent next. I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company. If you had a dial tone before, you'll have one when they fix their end. If you can't dial, because it's backwards, and you did the red to red thing (btw, you can see red and green inthe modular wires themselves. Just look close.) I'd reverse things in the basement if aiui, there are no colors indicated on that thing you mentioned. Certainly you should call yourself, or have someone else do it, after you are connected. You should test everything after a big change like here. Thank you in advance, Randall |
#8
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:08:58 -0500, Beowulf
wrote: On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:30:03 +0000, Pop inscribed to the world: ... ==== It depends on a lot of things, but mixing them up would -probably- never be noticed. Keep red to red and green to green and you should never have a problem. Do you mean keep all the red wires from the inside phone lines on the same pole/terminal of the (not sure what to call it) junction box, and the green wires on the other terminal? Hope I'm not horning in on POP, but on the theory that beow will try to finish this tonight: Yes, and at the other end of the wire, say it's a wall plate, connect the red wire from the 4-conductor wire to the screw that is connected to the short red wire that goes to one of the spring wires in the socket that the modular cord plugs into. And if you ever make your own modular cords, make sure that the red is the second from the left (or third, I don't remember) when the modular plug is held with its tang on the top side (or the bottom, I don't remmember, but compare with the end another modular cord and do it the same way.) FWIW, with the phone hung up, the red lead should be negative w/r to the green wire. There's a bout a 99% chance the wires coming in from the telco will have that DC polarity correct, but when things seem 'funny' it's worth checking out. You lost me at hello. I would put it: If the phone worked fully before the phone company broke it, you had it right, so it is still right. OK that's not the same thing, and I can't say exactly what was meant . ==== No, not for standard, plain old telephone service. You can cut them off even with the jacket if you wish to get them out of the way. Only the two wires are necessary. Actually, some people use the other two wires for intercoms, things like that. But you don't need them. Ok i will just use the green and red wires where I connect them to the junction/terminal poles on my basement rafter (where the main phone line's two wires attach to those two poles [bolts with nuts]) Right. That thing has room for plenty of wires. ==== Just for grins, when you checked it at the "demarc", did you make sure you had YOUR house wiring disconnected? To be certain, always disconnect the house wiring from the demarc before testing. ok i did not know that. In my case, that is automatic, because I have to unplug the house before I can plug in a phone. Don't iknow about other cases. Also, don't let them come into your house without telling them you are NOT authorizing any charges of any kind for them. I let In Verizon in Baltimore, I just wanted to get a radio station filter, which iiuc, are free if you are having problems, but there was NO way to talk to someone at the repair number. It asked some automated questions, and said "they might call before they came". Now my description made it pretty clear the problem was in the house, but they didn't say they would call first, and I was afraid to complete the signuup. A while later I got closer to the problem -- too complicated to describe -- and I think when I clean things up, it will probably go away. one clown in thru my garage doors once, and he looked up at the box on the way by, and commented on the neat wiring job. I received a BILL for "inside services" from the telco! They Wow. OTOH, Verizon here actually spent 90 minutes fixing a problem for a nearby friend, including what I didn't see but was a burned out wire under the large size wall-phone plate in the kitchen, and they didn't charge him anything. Apparently he thought a phone line surge broke the wire, even though they have a surge suppressor in the basement, and according to my friend's wife, they didn't touch that. didn't get away with it! ... Good to know, I will keep them out of my house! |
#9
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
I don't think I read here where anyone answered your question about the other two wires. They are for a second line so you won't need them. Stick with the green/red all throughout your house but I would like to add a few things to help you out. First, they make a cheap led tester that you can plug in an outlet to let you know if the polarity is reversed. What happens if you leave it that way--well some phones just won't dial--no tone. Second, it's best to run a line from the terminal block to each phone in your house. Reason for this is if one gets shorted you can keep disconnecting the lines until you find the bad one and over time you will get a bad one or shorted line for various reasons. J Beowulf wrote: Any help greatly appreciated! I had phone service reactivated to my home (giving up cell phone)-- the phone line (black) comes into my wall to my basement rafter, consists of two plain wires that each connect to a pole (bolt with nut) on a thing that is connected to a basement rafter. Ok, so I know I connect the wires from the phone lines to those two poles where the main line comes in, but is the order important? What I mean is, I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green? Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company. Thank you in advance, Randall |
#10
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
In article rail,
Beowulf wrote: Ok, so I know I connect the wires from the phone lines to those two poles where the main line comes in, but is the order important? No. Polarity was important MANY years ago but no longer. are the black and yellow really needed No. POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) uses a PAIR of copper wires to do their thing. Extra pairs are just that: Extra. They are there in case trouble develops with the original (red/green) pair. They are also available should a SECOND phone line be needed. should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? Yes. Honestly, though: This, too, doesn't matter. Many old-time phone techs may disagree but, many years ago, I located the actual B.S.P. (Bell System Practice) that identified black as a TIP color and yellow as a RING color. I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. I wouldn't be so sure. If it was working OK to start, then it failed, I would NOT expect trouble outside. Rather, you were plugging and un-plugging phones and otherwise messing with the system. Odds are the trouble IS inside your home. Of course, if you have a properly installed, official N.I.D. (Network Interface Device) serving your home, you used a KNOWN-GOOD phone, and there is NO DIAL TONE when plugged-in at the NID, the trouble is NOT inside. Good luck. -- JR |
#11
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
In article ,
mm wrote: two plain wires that each connect to a pole (bolt with nut) on a thing that is connected to a basement rafter. that thing is the surge bypasser or surpressor It is a "protector". That is an old-fashioned term surely coming from the very earliest days of telephony in the late 1800s. It's a vague term by today's standards, however. The protector used still today will NOT provide any protection from the "transients" (voltage surges) that traverse utility lines CONSTANTLY. But when all this was invented and deployed, the old, black rotary telephones didn't CARE about transients. They were built like Mac trucks and lasted forever. The new stuff today that is plugged-into the phone line is different. They are equipped with a simple "chip" that took the place of the old, copper-wound network that was surge resistant. The newer "chips" aren't so forgiving. Even so, one should avoid using common, "surge bar" plug strips with input/output jacks for your phone line ahead of a DSL modem. They have been known to interrupt the DSL signal. The protector, ostensibly present at the customer end of EVERY cable pair will, however, keep your house from burning down in the event of a SERIOUS surge (lightning striking nearby, power line falling across phone line, etc). However, in the event of a DIRECT lightning strike, ALL bets are OFF. **Western Electric are the phones that God intended, and are the actual phones used in Heaven. All the others are Satanic. This is SOOO funny. Of course, you are correct! After the breakup of The Bell System in 1984 and the resulting proliferation of Cheapie Chirpertm phones hanging from a peg at the local Target, folks have forgotten what a ahem *REAL* telephone is like. Give me a 2500 (Touchtonetm desk telephone) or give me a drink! -- JR |
#12
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
In article ,
Jim Redelfs wrote: should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? Yes. Honestly, though: This, too, doesn't matter. Many old-time phone techs may disagree but, many years ago, I located the actual B.S.P. (Bell System Practice) that identified black as a TIP color and yellow as a RING color. I seem to recall that as well.. the cool colors (green, black) were tip, and the warm colors (red, yellow) were ring.. but that only applies to quad.. (pardon me: D-station wire) In the standard 5 X 5 color matrix, the tip colors a white, red, black, yellow, violet the ring colors a blue, orange, green, brown, slate starting with the first tip color, and the first ring color, and incrementing ring color, then tip color, you get 25 pairs. -- -- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine -- Bob Vaughan | techie @ tantivy.net | | P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 | -- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? -- |
#13
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Color coding used to be simple just remember Christmas ( red and green =
line one ) and Halloween ( black 7 yellow = line 2) See http://www.hometech.com/learn/wiringst.html "Beowulf" wrote in message newsan.2006.04.06.21.53.21.398948@wayoftheancien ts.trail... Any help greatly appreciated! I had phone service reactivated to my home (giving up cell phone)-- the phone line (black) comes into my wall to my basement rafter, consists of two plain wires that each connect to a pole (bolt with nut) on a thing that is connected to a basement rafter. Ok, so I know I connect the wires from the phone lines to those two poles where the main line comes in, but is the order important? What I mean is, I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green? Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company. Thank you in advance, Randall |
#14
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:12:52 -0500, Jim Redelfs inscribed to the world:
... Of course, if you have a properly installed, official N.I.D. (Network Interface Device) serving your home, you used a KNOWN-GOOD phone, and there is NO DIAL TONE when plugged-in at the NID, the trouble is NOT inside. ... No dial tone at NID jack, used a brand new AT&T corded phone I bought at hardware store (just so I would know a test phone was good), and the wire form the NID serving my home is just a black insulated wire with two plain copper wires that attach to two poles/bolts on a thing my basement rafter. So with no dial tone at the NID box outside, seems it must be something at the NID box. Telepone co. is supposed to come today again to fix this, I will be curious to find out. |
#15
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:53:19 -0400, Joey inscribed to the world:
.... First, they make a cheap led tester that you can plug in an outlet to let you know if the polarity is reversed. What happens if you leave it that way--well some phones just won't dial--no tone. Yup, I bought one of those too yesterday, put it in the modular jack of the NID box and no light at all. Second, it's best to run a line from the terminal block to each phone in your house. Reason for this is if one gets shorted you can keep disconnecting the lines until you find the bad one and over time you will get a bad one or shorted line for various reasons. ... That seems to be the setup, I think it is called star topology from what I read. Whoever wired the phones before did it that way. Right now, I have disconnected ALL the phone lines from the terminal on the basement rafter (supplied by NID/Demarc box from outside phone line box), and just connected a simple 5 foot long phone line I made yesterday with new phone copper wire and a simple modular plug and a simple cheap corded phone, used red and green copper wires attached each to one of the terminal poles on the basement rafter (supplied by NID line from the box outside). |
#16
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Beowulf wrote:
Any help greatly appreciated! I had phone service reactivated to my home (giving up cell phone)-- the phone line (black) comes into my wall to my basement rafter, consists of two plain wires that each connect to a pole (bolt with nut) on a thing that is connected to a basement rafter. Ok, so I know I connect the wires from the phone lines to those two poles where the main line comes in, but is the order important? What I mean is, I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green? Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red? I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company. Thank you in advance, Randall If you feel the side of the black drop wire that runs between the NID and the protector on your basement rafter you will find that one side of it is ridged. The old time lineman's limerick was: The ring is ridged or red, readable to ground, and it terminates on the right. So the red wires from your inside wiring terminate on the right hand side of your old protector if the ridged side of that drop wire is terminated on that side. If the protector is not mounted vertically with the drop wires terminated on the left and right then you should ask more questions. Keeping the polarity of those wires consistent will help you with trouble shooting later. If you ever add a second telephone line or install an intercom you will need the black and yellow wires so instead of cutting them off the best practice is to wrap them back around the cable jacket so they remain available if needed. -- Tom Horne "people willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both" Benjamin Franklin |
#17
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
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#18
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:53:21 -0500, Beowulf inscribed to the world:
.... I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no .... I have phone tone! Phones working now, hell of a mystery. Turns out the phone line from the street to the NIC/Demarc box was bad, corroded, the phone company had to string in a whole new phone line from the pole to the outside NIC box! The temporary (30-60 second) usage I had, i.e. dial tone, yesterday, was just from static electricity left in the line that allowed a temporary dial tone. They put in a new line from the street and all is working now. Thank you for your help everybody! I have learned a great deal about phone wiring, etc.! |
#19
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
In article . net,
Thomas Daniel Horne wrote: If you feel the side of the black drop wire that runs between the NID and the protector on your basement rafter you will find that one side of it is ridged. From what I've read, the NID was a retrofit using a section of the old, aerial drop wire to make the jump from the NID outside to the old protector location in the joist downstairs. This is very typical. It is certainly possible and very LIKELY that the old protector downstairs is still providing the circuit protection that, had the retrofit been done properly, would be done by new protectors inside the NID box outside. This can be determined by the presence (or lack thereof) of a 10-gauge copper ground wire running to the telco-side of the NID outside. If there ISN'T a ground wire to the NID (there should be), and especially if the service is still fed with an aerial drop, the old protector in the basement is still necessary for its circuit protection. Knowing what I know (and do for a living), and YOU now know, I would request that my service be upgraded with a properly grounded and protected NID. The connection point (former protector) in the basement would remain ONLY as a simple connection point. So the red wires from your inside wiring terminate on the right hand side of your old protector if the ridged side of that drop wire is terminated on that side. If the protector is not mounted vertically with the drop wires terminated on the left and right then you should ask more questions. Not necessary. At this point, that old wire should be replaced. With a NID outside (grounded or not), the "jump" between the NID and the old protector downstairs, currently an *OLD* hunk of brittle drop wire, needs to be changed-out with modern, twisted pair station wire. Keeping the polarity of those wires consistent will help you with trouble shooting later. Only if your 20-year-old Western Electric desk set's Touchtonetm keypad quit Touchtone-ing. The first, few generations of Touchtonetm telephones were engineer so that, with the polarity of the pair being "proper", the phone would full work. With the polarity of the pair REVERSED, the keypad on the phone quit working. You could ANSWER the phone but could not make calls. I suspect this may have been a "feature" rather than a bug in the interest of keeping things as complicated as possible to discourage the public from messing with their phones and phone service - an illegal practice for almost 100 years. Polarity (red or green? It doesn't matter) hasn't been important for years. I wasn't sad to see the issue go away. Our Central Office MDF (Main Distributing Frame) still has quite a number of "reversing" heatcoils - made specifically to reverse a line for the use of Touchtonetm! If you ever add a second telephone line or install an intercom you will need the black and yellow wires so instead of cutting them off the best practice is to wrap them back around the cable jacket so they remain available if needed. Good advise. Always cut it LONG. If it's too long, you can always cut off some more. If you start out cutting it too short, you can't make it longer and it's REALLY hard to work on. -- JR |
#20
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:32:20 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote: Polarity (red or green? It doesn't matter) hasn't been important for years. I wasn't sad to see the issue go away. Our Central Office MDF (Main Distributing Frame) still has quite a number of "reversing" heatcoils - made specifically to reverse a line for the use of Touchtonetm! So even a real Touchtone phone doesn't have to be connected right anymore? The central offices have a way to make it right even if it is wrong? Is that true everywhere? or at least in Baltimore? |
#21
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Yes. I've heard it is different on (some?) later phones, but on real phones, Western Electric phones**, and those that are good imitations, if you don't have red and green right, you can talk and listen but on touch-tone, you can't dial. **Western Electric are the phones that God intended, and are the actual phones used in Heaven. All the others are Satanic. Western Electric Telephones, such as the famous model 500 were built to last 40 years (and indeed some have gone more than that). The reason was that prior to the Bell breakup... Most homes and businesses rented their phones and could not own them. To reduce service calls, they were built like tanks, with heavy metal stampings, true metal bells, a potted network, heavy-duty dialers, and no wimpy modular connectors on the cables. The wires had solid crimp connectors attached to screws and a solid metal strain-relief. To move a phone to a different room was a major project. You probably should call the phone man. I remember back in the early sixties, establishing new phone service was a relatively pleasant, if time consuming experience. One went to the local AT&T branch office (in my case, it was Illinois Bell). Often these were office areas attached to the local town telephone exchange. A nice lady (they were always women back then) would invite you to her desk, serve you coffee, and then ask you questions about establishing your service. Then you got to pick your phone from the Western Electric models on display. Most often this would be the model 500 available mostly in black, but sometimes other colors were available. Later, you could get a princess or a trimline wall phone if you wanted. If you wanted a lighted dial, then the installer would use the yellow and black wires for a lighting circuit and wire these to a plug in transformer somewhere in your house (The birth of the very first wall warts!) I heard that sometimes, these would catch on fire. At some point touch-tone became available, but Illinois Bell stuck you with an extra 70 cents per month to be this modern. My father always argued that dial telephones were good enough for him. Most numbers had alpha prefixes like PA9-2222 (Park 9) or AL1-1234 (Alpine 1). You might know your area code, but you never needed to dial it. Directory Assistance was live and free, available 24 hours a day, and you could use it as much as you wanted. (I think we should have a law today that says that this is as it should be...) Phone trouble? Dial #0 for operator or 611 for repairs and within seconds you were speaking to a live person who could solve your problem, again, 24 hours a day. No voice mail hell back then. Beachcomber |
#22
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Hi mm,
I never have a problem with folk "horning in", as long as they are accurate and/or clarifying/correcting something! Good job, IMO; thanks. Pop -- "Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." - Martin Luther King, Jr. "mm" wrote in message ... On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:08:58 -0500, Beowulf wrote: On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:30:03 +0000, Pop inscribed to the world: ... ==== It depends on a lot of things, but mixing them up would -probably- never be noticed. Keep red to red and green to green and you should never have a problem. Do you mean keep all the red wires from the inside phone lines on the same pole/terminal of the (not sure what to call it) junction box, and the green wires on the other terminal? Hope I'm not horning in on POP, but on the theory that beow will try to finish this tonight: Yes, and at the other end of the wire, say it's a wall plate, connect the red wire from the 4-conductor wire to the screw that is connected to the short red wire that goes to one of the spring wires in the socket that the modular cord plugs into. And if you ever make your own modular cords, make sure that the red is the second from the left (or third, I don't remember) when the modular plug is held with its tang on the top side (or the bottom, I don't remmember, but compare with the end another modular cord and do it the same way.) FWIW, with the phone hung up, the red lead should be negative w/r to the green wire. There's a bout a 99% chance the wires coming in from the telco will have that DC polarity correct, but when things seem 'funny' it's worth checking out. You lost me at hello. I would put it: If the phone worked fully before the phone company broke it, you had it right, so it is still right. OK that's not the same thing, and I can't say exactly what was meant . ==== No, not for standard, plain old telephone service. You can cut them off even with the jacket if you wish to get them out of the way. Only the two wires are necessary. Actually, some people use the other two wires for intercoms, things like that. But you don't need them. Ok i will just use the green and red wires where I connect them to the junction/terminal poles on my basement rafter (where the main phone line's two wires attach to those two poles [bolts with nuts]) Right. That thing has room for plenty of wires. ==== Just for grins, when you checked it at the "demarc", did you make sure you had YOUR house wiring disconnected? To be certain, always disconnect the house wiring from the demarc before testing. ok i did not know that. In my case, that is automatic, because I have to unplug the house before I can plug in a phone. Don't iknow about other cases. Also, don't let them come into your house without telling them you are NOT authorizing any charges of any kind for them. I let In Verizon in Baltimore, I just wanted to get a radio station filter, which iiuc, are free if you are having problems, but there was NO way to talk to someone at the repair number. It asked some automated questions, and said "they might call before they came". Now my description made it pretty clear the problem was in the house, but they didn't say they would call first, and I was afraid to complete the signuup. A while later I got closer to the problem -- too complicated to describe -- and I think when I clean things up, it will probably go away. one clown in thru my garage doors once, and he looked up at the box on the way by, and commented on the neat wiring job. I received a BILL for "inside services" from the telco! They Wow. OTOH, Verizon here actually spent 90 minutes fixing a problem for a nearby friend, including what I didn't see but was a burned out wire under the large size wall-phone plate in the kitchen, and they didn't charge him anything. Apparently he thought a phone line surge broke the wire, even though they have a surge suppressor in the basement, and according to my friend's wife, they didn't touch that. didn't get away with it! ... Good to know, I will keep them out of my house! |
#23
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
....
==== Just for grins, when you checked it at the "demarc", did you make sure you had YOUR house wiring disconnected? To be certain, always disconnect the house wiring from the demarc before testing. ok i did not know that. .... That's a very important part of the picture. If you've accidentally caused a short somewhere, and you do not disconnect the house, then that short will still be there when you test at the demarc. By disconnecting the house, you remove the short and your dialtone may well return after a short pause. Note that a short sets off an "alarm" in the central office, which in turn disables dialtone to your phone line, followed a few minutes later by removal of the battery voltage. That way a storm problem or car accident doesn't knock out the whole central office due to many shorts. If you did have a short: when you disconnect the house to test at the demarc, it may be several seconds before the telco automatically restores battery voltage and dialtone to your phone line. It -will- come back though; it will not stay gone. So, give it a minute or so to return if it's not there at the demarc. If however, you have an open circuit (something not connected that needs to be), you would never know the difference at the demarc, but ... you -would- have dialtone, meaning the telco is delivering dialtone to you and the problem is someplace in the house. I've seen several good links to phone wiring here; assume you've at least looked at some of them. Usually, in my case at least, the tech will grab the house wiring and do a quick test on it, without asking, at which time you are free to say something like "Thank you for the free test; that was nice of you". G. Most techs are good working guys just like us, so ... . Pop |
#24
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
"mm" wrote in message
... On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:32:20 -0500, Jim Redelfs wrote: Polarity (red or green? It doesn't matter) hasn't been important for years. I wasn't sad to see the issue go away. Our Central Office MDF (Main Distributing Frame) still has quite a number of "reversing" heatcoils - made specifically to reverse a line for the use of Touchtonetm! So even a real Touchtone phone doesn't have to be connected right anymore? The central offices have a way to make it right even if it is wrong? Is that true everywhere? or at least in Baltimore? The "fix" is actually inside the phones that you buy. The DC voltage is passed through a full wave rectifier so that no matter which polarity is connected, it passes thru the bridge to the internal cktry in the correct polarity. It's a very old phone these days that cares about the polarity, but even some of the old but more recent phones still have problems with ringing detection if the polarity is reversed and won't ring properly. Ring voltage detection, although basic, is probably the most complex part of a simple telephone. Ring voltage, BTW, is enough to give you a fairly good jolt, so beware when you're handling telephone wiring. Pop |
#26
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 20:33:23 -0400, mm
wrote: In Verizon in Baltimore, I just wanted to get a radio station filter, which iiuc, are free if you are having problems, but there was NO way to talk to someone at the repair number. It asked some automated questions, and said "they might call before they came". Now my BTW, I think they meant that they *might* come, and if they did, they *would* call before they came -- for one thing, they would want me to be home if they were coming -- but they didn't say that, so I was afraid to continue. Maybe there was even a place to leave a message, but I'm not at all sure there was. description made it pretty clear the problem was in the house, but they didn't say they would call first, and I was afraid to complete the signuup. A while later I got closer to the problem -- too complicated to describe -- and I think when I clean things up, it will probably go away. Something doesn't work with my in-house wires. So I'm using the NIC and I've got a wire from it running up the front of the house and in the bedroom window to my phone and computer. Then I'm using the house wiring to go down to the kitchen and basement**. Anyhow, when I have the wire from the phone machine on the second floor connected to the preinstalled house wire that goes to the kitchen, I pick up WBAL AM radio and it's really annoying. For some reason, I think if I ever get the original entry point to the house working again, this problem will go away. **but I had to disconnect my own bedroom because there is probably a short in the wiring. I ran the wiring myself, because the previous owner put a layer of sheetrock over the jack and I don't know where it is. Except my bed is on a different wall anyhow. |
#27
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
In article ,
mm wrote: So even a real Touchtone phone doesn't have to be connected right anymore? That depends on what constitutes a "real" Touchtone phone. The oldest ones have to be wired right. The newer (all now at least 10-15-years old) Touchtone phones didn't care. To me, a "real" Touchtone phone is at least 15-years old, was made by Western Electric, and was of the old Desk or Wall or Princess configuration. Those phones are "polarity" sensitive as are the first generation, round-button Trimline phones that use a dial light transformer to illuminate the buttons. With the pair connected one way, the Touchtonetm keypad will work - depressing a button/key will "break the dialtone". With the pair reversed, the phone will ring, you can talk on it, but you can NOT dial a call. The keypad doesn't work. It stays SILENT when any key is pressed. It doesn't "break the dialtone". Even the later model Trimlinetm phones had a "polarity guard" making red/green orientation unimportant. Said another way: If you have a Touchtonetm phone that has a non-working keypad (NONE of the keys make a noise at all), check and note the keypad function when the offending phone is plugged-into other jacks. The central offices have a way to make it right even if it is wrong? Yes, as long as it is an ANCIENT, Western Electric phone. Is that true everywhere? or at least in Baltimore? Probably. -- JR |
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
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#29
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 22:32:57 -0500, Jim Redelfs
wrote: At some point touch-tone became available, but Illinois Bell stuck you with an extra 70 cents per month to be this modern. Did you know that, for the first couple of years, there was no * or # on the Touchtone keypad? They were 10-button phones. The * and # were added I had one of those. early on but did *NOTHING* for YEARS - until Call Forwarding and Speed Dialing became available as Central Offices were upgraded to electronic switches. By the time I was using it much, I missed those two buttons, so I found key pads at hamfests or rummage sales before then and put in the 12 button pad. The first one didn't work at all, but the second different one worked well. I used a hot knife from a soldering iron to cut 2 more squares in the face plate. Hardly noticeable that the holes were new. JR |
#30
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Confusion in the last line!!!
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 22:19:46 -0500, Jim Redelfs wrote: In article , mm wrote: So even a real Touchtone phone doesn't have to be connected right anymore? That depends on what constitutes a "real" Touchtone phone. The oldest ones have to be wired right. That's what I thought, but something in the previous post made me think there had been an improvement at the Central Station. The newer (all now at least 10-15-years old) Touchtone phones didn't care. I have a touch tone phone going back to 1962 or earlier. I think that was the one that was originally 10-button. I was also at a farm show in 1957 where the phone company, I guess it was, had a booth, and they demonstrated a touch tone phone. This one also had plastic cards, maybe 2x4 inch, that were pre-semi-perforated. You wrote the name of the person at the top of the card, and then completed punching out 3mm holes to make his phone number. Each line was one number, but there weren't ten holes per line, only about 5 so maybe it was binary or something. Then one held the card vertically and pushed the card, twice as thick as a credit card, into the slot in the top of the phone where it stayed. Then one pushed a button and the card came out, touch-toning the number as it came. It was cool. To me, a "real" Touchtone phone is at least 15-years old, was made by Western Electric, and was of the old Desk or Wall or Princess configuration. Those phones are "polarity" sensitive as are the first generation, round-button Trimline phones that use a dial light transformer to illuminate the buttons. OK. I agree with your definitions. With the pair connected one way, the Touchtonetm keypad will work - depressing a button/key will "break the dialtone". With the pair reversed, the phone will ring, you can talk on it, but you can NOT dial a call. The keypad doesn't work. It stays SILENT when any key is pressed. It doesn't "break the dialtone". Even the later model Trimlinetm phones had a "polarity guard" making red/green orientation unimportant. Said another way: If you have a Touchtonetm phone that has a non-working keypad (NONE of the keys make a noise at all), check and note the keypad function when the offending phone is plugged-into other jacks. The central offices have a way to make it right even if it is wrong? Yes, as long as it is an ANCIENT, Western Electric phone. Wait a second. Those are what you said above wouldn't work. Is that true everywhere? or at least in Baltimore? Probably. |
#31
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Did you know that, for the first couple of years, there was no * or # on the Touchtone keypad? They were 10-button phones. The * and # were added early on but did *NOTHING* for YEARS - until Call Forwarding and Speed Dialing became available as Central Offices were upgraded to electronic switches. I want a phone-set with buttons for the other four tone-pairs. :-( |
#32
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
Goedjn wrote:
Did you know that, for the first couple of years, there was no * or # on the Touchtone keypad? They were 10-button phones. The * and # were added early on but did *NOTHING* for YEARS - until Call Forwarding and Speed Dialing became available as Central Offices were upgraded to electronic switches. I want a phone-set with buttons for the other four tone-pairs. :-( Then you buy a surplus TA/312-PT in good condition and add a TA-955 tone adapter to it. The phones are available on Ebay and the adapters are available from surplus dealers. -- Tom Horne Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to. We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you. |
#33
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
"Goedjn" wrote in message ... Did you know that, for the first couple of years, there was no * or # on the Touchtone keypad? They were 10-button phones. The * and # were added early on but did *NOTHING* for YEARS - until Call Forwarding and Speed Dialing became available as Central Offices were upgraded to electronic switches. I want a phone-set with buttons for the other four tone-pairs. :-( Actually, the specifications for TT are a 4x5 grid, and the military was somewhat involved in the R&D process. Back then, the dividing line between Ma Bell and the Feds was rather fuzzy in spots. ATT long lines, and the military phone system, were rather intertwined. Satellites and VOIP, along with other companies actually owning outside plant and long lines/fiber, have made things more distinct. I've seen the 2500 phones with the extra buttons- they supposedly did magical things on the old AUTOVON network, including seizing trunks when needed. In my collection, I used to have a 2500 w/o the * and # buttons- not sure what happened to it. All the copper parts were there for the two missing buttons- they just didn't put buttons above them. Different top cover with the square holes, and 2 less buttons. aem sends... |
#34
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
"Jim Redelfs" wrote in message ... In article , (Beachcomber) wrote: If you wanted a lighted dial, then the installer would use the yellow and black wires for a lighting circuit and wire these to a plug in transformer somewhere in your house To this day, I encounter these from time to time. Many are still plugged-in but haven't been needed for YEARS. (The birth of the very first wall warts!) HA! I never thought of that but you're right: When those "dial light" transformers began service, they were the ONLY "wall wart" in a house - for many, many years. I heard that sometimes, these would catch on fire. There was actually a recall on the ones made by a certain manufacture. I never found one but they did make effort to get the word out. My notice came in the phone bill. I got in on the tail end of this debacle. The new "lighted dial" Princess then Trimline phones required a separate A.C. transformer for their dial light power. I'm not sure how many years after the wall warts first appeared, but some years later, The Bell System contracted with a company named "Ault" to manufacture these little "warts". I don't know how much time elapsed but, due to more than a few meltdowns and fires, The Bell System launched a *HUGE*, massive, nationwide "Ault Transformer Inspection" program. At some point touch-tone became available, but Illinois Bell stuck you with an extra 70 cents per month to be this modern. Did you know that, for the first couple of years, there was no * or # on the Touchtone keypad? They were 10-button phones. The * and # were added early on but did *NOTHING* for YEARS - until Call Forwarding and Speed Dialing became available as Central Offices were upgraded to electronic switches. -- JR -- Herb |
#35
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telephone wiring HELP needed !
"ameijers" wrote in message ... "Goedjn" wrote in message ... Did you know that, for the first couple of years, there was no * or # on the Touchtone keypad? They were 10-button phones. The * and # were added early on but did *NOTHING* for YEARS - until Call Forwarding and Speed Dialing became available as Central Offices were upgraded to electronic switches. I want a phone-set with buttons for the other four tone-pairs. :-( Actually, the specifications for TT are a 4x5 grid, and the military was somewhat involved in the R&D process. Back then, the dividing line between Ma Bell and the Feds was rather fuzzy in spots. ATT long lines, and the military phone system, were rather intertwined. Satellites and VOIP, along with other companies actually owning outside plant and long lines/fiber, have made things more distinct. I've seen the 2500 phones with the extra buttons- they supposedly did magical things on the old AUTOVON network, including seizing trunks when needed. Yeah! AUTOVON. Mostly, when I was near an AUTOVON phone I was told NOT to f**k with the right row of buttons. Not sure what they all did, but you could basically the planet (as far as our military is concerned). I'd suppose louse up my career too at the time. I'm thinking very early 1970's. In my collection, I used to have a 2500 w/o the * and # buttons- not sure what happened to it. All the copper parts were there for the two missing buttons- they just didn't put buttons above them. Different top cover with the square holes, and 2 less buttons. aem sends... -- Herb |
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