wrote:
Robert Gammon acts dumb as a post again:


Nick says GFX needs a toothbrush for cleaning.

Wrong again. Read much? :-)


... I have a slab foundation and NO basement (plumbing is buried
beneath the slab). The ONLY choice for me is a sewage ejector in the
corner of the garage, near where the main sewer line exits under the
slab with a GFX stack in the corner above the sewage ejector.

Au contraire. That way, you could easily use either heat exchanger,
and you might use the flat spiral version with no pump.

In the 1200sq ft living space I have now, the ONLY unit that will work
is the GFX. There is no room for yours UNLESS it goes in the ATTIC!!!


OK. I give up. You don't even understand "flat spiral."

Nick


Flat spiral == 7 feet diameter, 2 feet high. NO ROOM FOR THAT EXCEPT IN
CEILING!!!

Robert Gammon wrote:

Flat spiral == 7 feet diameter, 2 feet high...

.... 4" high, fool.

Nick

wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:


Flat spiral == 7 feet diameter, 2 feet high...


... 4" high, fool.

Nick


Ok, 4 INCHES high actually 4.5 inches high as that is the diameter of
your outer tubing.

Still 7 feet in diameter, it could only hang vertically on the garage
wall, over thee plastic, steel, aluminum, paper recycling rack and the
sewage ejector pump would sit under the rack. The sewage ejector pump
would cost around $350. Punching a hole in the slab would cost another
$350. Installing the sewage ejector in the hole, running power to it,
hooking it up to the sewer, installing a vent pipe to the collection
tank, piping in the potable water and back tothe hot water tank will
cost another $500+ as I will NOT do this myself.

This is getting to be EXPENSIVE for a project that will save me maybe
$10-$20/mo on my Natural Gas Plus Solar Hot water system.

Now in new house, not likely to install Solar, but could. DHW is likely
to be a 190K BTU tankless model, and I could easily install either
Nick's or GFX. MY choice, given that budget will NOT be a concern,
will be GFX. May even plumb the GFX thru the geothermal heat pump as it
will be in the same room, and preheat the input to he GFX - maybe
overkill to do that, but anything will be possible.

So you are saying "Better nick's wife batting him around than ours"?

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
(in
)
said:

| Solar Flare wrote:

much snippage throughout

|| Efficiency of installation ease.
|| Efficiency of installation time.
|| Efficiency of product parts and pieces aquisition
|
| I can relate to that, having spent about 40 hours in the last 2
| weeks visiting various plumbing supply stores. It's been fun
| learning names
| of fittings, like "bullnose T" and "Dismukes crampon lifter."

This may be some of the best and most encouraging news I've seen
posted to alt.solar.thermal!

I've admired Nick's tenacity in dealing with the math of solar
issues;
but deplored his seeming inability to "get his wheels on the
ground."

Nick, bless you! Get out even more. Take some of those fittings home
with you and play with 'em! Build at least rough prototypes of your
ideas and take pictures to share...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Solar Flare wrote:

So you are saying "Better nick's wife batting him around than ours"?

Mine objected to 300 55 gallon drums on the lawn. When I moved 200 into
a greenhouse and the rest into the basement, that was OK. Go figure.

| I can relate to that, having spent about 40 hours in the last 2 weeks
| visiting various plumbing supply stores. It's been fun learning names
| of fittings, like "bullnose T" and "Dismukes crampon lifter."

Fat plumbers in grimy jeans come in and say "Gimmie a 45 degree Thomson
slidearm and a couple of 16" vertical Whittakers with the purple nibs."

This may be some of the best and most encouraging news I've seen
posted to alt.solar.thermal!

I've admired Nick's tenacity in dealing with the math of solar issues;
but deplored his seeming inability to "get his wheels on the ground."

Do what you do best. Lots of people can build things that don't leak.
I'd like to know why the energy that flows into the gwhx is less than
the energy that flows out during a shower, in that simulation.

Nick, bless you! Get out even more. Take some of those fittings home
with you and play with 'em! Build at least rough prototypes of your
ideas and take pictures to share...

My 4th HP digital camera stopped working. They seem fragile. Otherwise,
you might see me stretching the curves out of 300' of 1" pipe with
a tree and a pickup truck.

Nick

I'd like to know why the energy that flows into the gwhx is less than
the energy that flows out during a shower, in that simulation.

Changing the heatflow from linear to a more accurate exponential (two caps
equalizing voltage through a resistor) made little difference...

20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater (Btu/F)
60 CSERIES=CFRESH*CGREY/(CFRESH+CGREY)'caps in series (Btu/F)
70 RC=CSERIES/UPIPE'combined time constant (hours)
80 EXPF=EXP(-1/60/RC)'exponential factor
100 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 100'simulate showers
110 FOR M=0 TO 59'simulate 10 min shower + 50 min rest
120 IF M9 GOTO 250'rest vs shower
130 IF SHOWER 100 GOTO 170
140 RHEAT=RHEAT+CFRESH*(100-TF(0))'reheat energy
150 GLOSS=GLOSS+CFRESH*(TG(9)-55)'greywater heat loss
160 PRINT 400+M;"'";M,TF(0),RHEAT,TG(9),GLOSS
170 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up
180 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in at the top
190 FOR S=1 TO 8'pipe section (9-fresh water in and greywater out)
200 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
210 TG(S)=(TG(S-1)*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
220 NEXT S
230 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
240 TG(9)=(TG(8)*CFRESH+TG(9)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
250 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
260 TFINAL=(TF(S)*CFRESH+TG(S)*CGREY)/(CFRESH+CGREY)
270 TF(S)=TFINAL+(TF(S)-TFINAL)*EXPF'new fresh temp (F)
280 TG(S)=TFINAL+(TG(S)-TFINAL)*EXPF'new grey temp (F)
290 NEXT S
295 NEXT M
310 NEXT SHOWER
320 SHOWERGY=10*CFRESH*(100-55)
330 PRINT RHEAT,SHOWERGY,1-RHEAT/SHOWERGY

0 94.38332 58.48365 71.9481 176.4721
1 92.75861 133.8847 72.28975 356.5016
2 91.17551 225.7697 72.71021 540.9092
3 89.71318 332.8812 73.10856 729.4646
4 88.41459 453.5143 73.48615 921.9516
5 87.28408 585.919 73.84426 1118.167
6 86.30738 728.4934 74.18405 1317.921
7 85.46612 879.8273 74.50663 1521.034
8 84.74309 1038.69 74.81306 1727.338
9 84.12328 1204.006 75.10433 1936.674

1204.006 4685.625 .7430426

Why 1204 Btu in and 1936 out?

Nick

I'd like to know why the energy that flows into the gwhx is less than
the energy that flows out during a shower, in that simulation...

0 94.38332 58.48365 71.9481 176.4721
1 92.75861 133.8847 72.28975 356.5016
2 91.17551 225.7697 72.71021 540.9092
3 89.71318 332.8812 73.10856 729.4646
4 88.41459 453.5143 73.48615 921.9516
5 87.28408 585.919 73.84426 1118.167
6 86.30738 728.4934 74.18405 1317.921
7 85.46612 879.8273 74.50663 1521.034
8 84.74309 1038.69 74.81306 1727.338
9 84.12328 *1204.006 75.10433 *1936.674

1204.006 4685.625 .7430426

Why 1204 Btu in and 1936 out?

20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater (Btu/F)
60 CSERIES=CFRESH*CGREY/(CFRESH+CGREY)'caps in series (Btu/F)
70 RC=CSERIES/UPIPE'combined time constant (hours)
80 EXPF=EXP(-1/60/RC)'exponential factor
90 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 100'simulate showers
100 FOR M=0 TO 59'simulate 10 min shower + 50 min rest
110 IF M9 GOTO 270'rest vs shower
120 IF SHOWER 100 GOTO 160
130 RHEAT=RHEAT+CFRESH*(100-TF(0))'reheat energy
140 GLOSS=GLOSS+CFRESH*(TG(9)-55)'greywater heat loss
150 PRINT 400+M;"'";M,TF(0),RHEAT,TG(9),GLOSS
160 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up
170 TGT=TG(0)'save original Tg(0) for later Tg(1) calc
180 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in at the top
190 FOR S=1 TO 8'pipe section (9-fresh water in and greywater out)
200 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
210 TGP=TG(S)'save original Tg(s) for later Tg(s+1) calc
220 TG(S)=(TGT*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
230 TGT=TGP'prepare for Tg(s+1) calc
240 NEXT S
250 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
260 TG(9)=(TGT*CFRESH+TG(9)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
270 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
280 TFINAL=(TF(S)*CFRESH+TG(S)*CGREY)/(CFRESH+CGREY)
290 TF(S)=TFINAL+(TF(S)-TFINAL)*EXPF'new fresh temp (F)
300 TG(S)=TFINAL+(TG(S)-TFINAL)*EXPF'new grey temp (F)
310 NEXT S
320 NEXT M
330 NEXT SHOWER
340 SHOWERGY=10*CFRESH*(100-55)'if no GWHX (Btu)
350 PRINT RHEAT,SHOWERGY,1-RHEAT/SHOWERGY

0 93.72946 65.29199 67.76752 132.9418
1 91.50189 153.7785 68.01705 268.4818
2 89.30461 265.1443 68.32899 407.2698
3 87.3519 396.8427 68.61366 549.0221
4 85.71924 545.5411 68.89086 693.6606
5 84.37411 708.2456 69.15711 841.0716
6 83.2604 882.5468 69.41382 991.1554
7 82.33891 1066.443 69.66134 1143.817
8 81.58043 1258.237 69.90021 1298.965
9 80.95963 *1456.495 70.13091 *1456.516

1456.495 4685.625 .6891568

Ah. Much better with buffering in lines 170, 210, and 230.
The effectiveness dropped to 69%, but it still beats a GFX,
esp. for baths, with no large vertical space requirement.
And the pipe conductance might end up larger, with greywater
vs liquid manure, and warm greywater bouyancy (not simulated)
might also help.

Thanks, daestrom :-)

Nick

.... 5 vs 3 100' pipes only raised the effectiveness from 68 to 77%.
A 200' version makes 82%... 200' of 4" drainpipe would wrap around
the lower 3' of an 86" diam x 48" tall STSS heat storage tank.

15 DIM TF(20),TG(20)
20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater (Btu/F)
60 CSERIES=CFRESH*CGREY/(CFRESH+CGREY)'caps in series (Btu/F)
70 RC=CSERIES/UPIPE'combined time constant (hours)
80 EXPF=EXP(-1/60/RC)'exponential factor
90 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 100'simulate showers
100 FOR M=0 TO 59'simulate 10 min shower + 50 min rest
110 IF M9 GOTO 270'rest vs shower
120 IF SHOWER 100 GOTO 160
130 RHEAT=RHEAT+CFRESH*(100-TF(0))'reheat energy
140 GLOSS=GLOSS+CFRESH*(TG(19)-55)'greywater heat loss
150 PRINT 400+M;"'";M,TF(0),RHEAT,TG(19),GLOSS
160 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up
170 TGT=TG(0)'save original Tg(0) for later Tg(1) calc
180 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in at the top
190 FOR S=1 TO 18'pipe section (19-fresh water in and greywater out)
200 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
210 TGP=TG(S)'save original Tg(s) for later Tg(s+1) calc
220 TG(S)=(TGT*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
230 TGT=TGP'prepare for Tg(s+1) calc
240 NEXT S
250 TF(19)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
260 TG(19)=(TGT*CFRESH+TG(19)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
270 FOR S=0 TO 19'rest
280 TFINAL=(TF(S)*CFRESH+TG(S)*CGREY)/(CFRESH+CGREY)
290 TF(S)=TFINAL+(TF(S)-TFINAL)*EXPF'new fresh temp (F)
300 TG(S)=TFINAL+(TG(S)-TFINAL)*EXPF'new grey temp (F)
310 NEXT S
320 NEXT M
330 NEXT SHOWER
340 SHOWERGY=10*CFRESH*(100-55)'if no GWHX (Btu)
350 PRINT RHEAT,SHOWERGY,1-RHEAT/SHOWERGY

0 96.58958 35.51103 62.44146 77.4842
1 95.26726 84.79071 62.58688 156.4826
2 93.96446 147.6357 62.76867 237.3738
3 92.78384 222.7741 62.93455 319.9923
4 91.76805 308.4892 63.09611 404.293
5 90.9036 403.2055 63.25129 490.2096
6 90.16348 505.6282 63.40093 577.6842
7 89.52875 614.6602 63.54522 666.6613
8 88.98529 729.3508 63.68448 757.0885
9 88.52072 848.8789 63.81895 848.9157

848.8789 4685.625 .8188334

Nick

A 200' version makes 82%...

But that's pretty big. How about this?

We collect all the shower water in a tank, with an infinite cold water tank
next to it, then circulate the cold water through a coil in the shower tank
until it all cools to the cold water temp... Then again, infinite tanks are
hard to come by.

So maybe mix hot and cold fresh water to 90 F and circulate that through
the coil until the shower tank drops from 100 to 95, then pump some of
the 95 F fresh water back into the hot water tank and add enough cold fresh
water to make the fresh mix 85, then circulate for a while, then pump some
90 F fresh water back into the hot water tank and add enough cold water to
make the fresh mix 80, and so on. How can we do this automatically, on
a continuous basis? We need a 20 gallon expansion tank too. Lots of pumping,
but little energy, if the hot and cold supplies stay pressurized.

Nick

wrote:
A 200' version makes 82%...


But that's pretty big. How about this?

We collect all the shower water in a tank, with an infinite cold water tank
next to it, then circulate the cold water through a coil in the shower tank
until it all cools to the cold water temp... Then again, infinite tanks are
hard to come by.

So maybe mix hot and cold fresh water to 90 F and circulate that through
the coil until the shower tank drops from 100 to 95, then pump some of
the 95 F fresh water back into the hot water tank and add enough cold fresh
water to make the fresh mix 85, then circulate for a while, then pump some
90 F fresh water back into the hot water tank and add enough cold water to
make the fresh mix 80, and so on. How can we do this automatically, on
a continuous basis? We need a 20 gallon expansion tank too. Lots of pumping,
but little energy, if the hot and cold supplies stay pressurized.

Nick


At some point the water needs to be heated to about 140F to kill
bacteria before use in showers and baths.

I fail to see the point of all this pumping and mixing between hot and
cold sources. What do we gain by this??

Bronze Taco pumps are cheap and use less than 100W to move 10+Gal/Hr to
15 feet or more.

Robert Gammon wrote:
wrote:
A 200' version makes 82%...


But that's pretty big. How about this?

We collect all the shower water in a tank, with an infinite cold
water tank next to it, then circulate the cold water through a coil
in the shower tank until it all cools to the cold water temp... Then
again, infinite tanks are hard to come by.

So maybe mix hot and cold fresh water to 90 F and circulate that
through the coil until the shower tank drops from 100 to 95, then
pump some of the 95 F fresh water back into the hot water tank and add
enough
cold fresh water to make the fresh mix 85, then circulate for a
while, then pump some 90 F fresh water back into the hot water tank
and add enough cold water to make the fresh mix 80, and so on. How
can we do this automatically, on a continuous basis? We need a 20 gallon
expansion tank too. Lots of
pumping, but little energy, if the hot and cold supplies stay
pressurized.

At some point the water needs to be heated to about 140F to kill bacteria
before use in showers and baths.

No it doesnt.

I fail to see the point of all this pumping and mixing between hot and
cold sources. What do we gain by this??

Bronze Taco pumps are cheap and use less than 100W to move 10+Gal/Hr
to 15 feet or more.

Robert Gammon wrote:

I fail to see the point of all this pumping and mixing between hot and
cold sources. What do we gain by this??

Bronze Taco pumps are cheap and use less than 100W to move 10+Gal/Hr to
15 feet or more.

I've learned that further discussions with you would be pointless.

Nick

wrote in message
...
daestrom wrote:

I'd like to see what the greywater outlet temperature is while it's
flowing.

How about the fresh water outlet temp? Line 100 below accumulates
the heat energy that needs to be added during the last shower...

20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of pipe (Btu/h-F)
30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater
(Btu/F)
60 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 1000'simulate showers
70 FOR M=0 TO 359'simulate 10 min shower + 350 min rest
80 IF M9 GOTO 200'rest vs shower
90 IF SHOWER 1000 GOTO 120
100 RHEAT=RHEAT+1.25*8.33*(100-TF(0))'reheat energy required
110 PRINT 300+M;"'";M,TF(0),RHEAT
120 TF(0)=TF(1)'move fresh water up
130 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in at the
top
140 FOR S=1 TO 8'pipe section (9-fresh water in and greywater out)
150 TF(S)=TF(S+1)'move fresh water up
160 TG(S)=(TG(S-1)*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
170 NEXT S
180 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
190 TG(9)=(TG(8)*CFRESH+TG(9)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
200 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
210 HEATFLOW=(TG(S)-TF(S))*UPIPE/60'heatflow into fresh water (Btu)
220 TF(S)=TF(S)+HEATFLOW/CFRESH'new fresh temp (F)
230 TG(S)=TG(S)-HEATFLOW/CGREY'new grey temp (F)
240 NEXT S
250 NEXT M
260 NEXT SHOWER
280 SHOWERGY=1.25*10*8.33*(100-55)'total heat energy with no gwhx
290 PRINT RHEAT,SHOWERGY,1-RHEAT/SHOWERGY

time fresh cum reheat
(min) temp (F) (Btu)

0 94.56091 56.6345
1 92.93514 130.1973
2 91.38136 219.9389
3 89.96538 324.4244
4 88.72086 441.8685
5 87.6472 570.492
6 86.72784 708.6885
7 85.94302 855.0568
8 85.27464 1008.385
9 84.70704 1167.623

cum reheat shower effectiveness
(Btu) heat (Btu) (fraction)

1167.623 4685.625 .7508075


More like I expect. Your system's outlet temperature drops from the high of
94F the longer you run the shower. The fact that it's a 'batch' process
allows you to get better performance than the steady-state parameters would
allow.

But show the greywater too. As I said before, if the greywater is giving
off less energy than the freshwater is picking up, then something's broke.
I notice you chose to show the more optimistic of the two numbers. I'll bet
the greywater shows more energy going down the drain than physics would
allow if these numbers were accurate.

So then it's just a matter of adjusting gwhx versus shower time to keep
performance high. Too long a shower, or too short a gwhx and performance
drops.

How would two showers spaced fairly close together look? Looks like this
would support four, 10-minute showers a day, spaced 6 hours apart right now.

daestrom

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...
Solar Flare wrote:
GFX nick
efficiency 6 7
price 5 3
convenience 9 1
wife likes 6 0
----------------------
total score 26 11



GREAT scoring system.

Particularly since GFX is non clogging and works with ALL sewer waters
(grey and black).

Efficiency is NOT the only criteria here. If we recover 40% to 60% of the
waste heat, we have made MAJOR strides in overall DHW production
efficiency. Convenience, non-clogging, wife friendly are all MAJOR
concerns.
Price is NOT the only factor either, but price and efficiency are Nick's
main concerns.


But remember GFX can only recover heat from a 'running water' situation. So
laundry (if you use hot water??), a bathtub, or a sink full of water used to
wash dishes doesn't do *anything* in the GFX. It stores very little heat
for recovery in these 'batch' mode processes.

It really only performs up to it's reputation with showers or if you run
water continuously while doing the dishes or some such.

While Nick's is not as convenient, and it may have some long-term
maintenance issues, it *does* recover/save energy from such batch processes.
But with a total 'storage' of only about 12 gallons, it still wouldn't
really help much in large bath-tub sort of thing (unless you bath in just 12
gallons of water).

daestrom

Robert Gammon wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Robert Gammon wrote
wrote:

A 200' version makes 82%...

But that's pretty big. How about this?

We collect all the shower water in a tank, with an infinite cold
water tank next to it, then circulate the cold water through a coil
in the shower tank until it all cools to the cold water temp...
Then again, infinite tanks are hard to come by.

So maybe mix hot and cold fresh water to 90 F and circulate that
through the coil until the shower tank drops from 100 to 95, then
pump some of the 95 F fresh water back into the hot water tank and
add enough
cold fresh water to make the fresh mix 85, then circulate for a
while, then pump some 90 F fresh water back into the hot water tank
and add enough cold water to make the fresh mix 80, and so on. How
can we do this automatically, on a continuous basis? We need a 20
gallon expansion tank too. Lots of pumping, but little energy, if the
hot and cold supplies stay pressurized.

At some point the water needs to be heated to about 140F to kill
bacteria before use in showers and baths.

No it doesnt.

Do a little research and you will find that Canada HAS such a spec.

More fool canada. You cant ignore chlorination.

Read about it today searching for the valve (Tempering Valve) that
mixes hot water with cold to prevent scalding. Their spec says that
hot water heaters must attain a temp of at least 60C (about 140F) in
order to kill this bacteria, and that water heaters can frequently
output 75C water (about 167F) Scalding occurs (and I was a victim of
this at about age 4) most often in households that draw a bath using
solely Hot water, then temper with cold to get the desired temp. I
was impatient to get my bath that night, and due to the arrangement
of water controls and my size, I could not reach the cold water
control without climbing around the lip of the tub. Needless to ay,
I slipped and dropped my foot into the HOT water. My ankle bone was
VISIBLE thru the skin for several days after that.

Separate matter entirely.

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
daestrom wrote:
snip
cum reheat shower effectiveness
(Btu) heat (Btu) (fraction)

1167.623 4685.625 .7508075


More like I expect. Your system's outlet temperature drops from the high
of 94F the longer you run the shower. The fact that it's a 'batch'
process allows you to get better performance than the steady-state
parameters would allow.

But show the greywater too. As I said before, if the greywater is giving
off less energy than the freshwater is picking up, then something's broke.
I notice you chose to show the more optimistic of the two numbers. I'll
bet the greywater shows more energy going down the drain than physics
would allow if these numbers were accurate.


Oh, I see you had done this in another branch. I'll go there and see
"what's up"

daestrom

wrote in message
...
A 200' version makes 82%...

But that's pretty big. How about this?

We collect all the shower water in a tank, with an infinite cold water
tank
next to it, then circulate the cold water through a coil in the shower
tank
until it all cools to the cold water temp... Then again, infinite tanks
are
hard to come by.


No, I don't think this is the way to go. When using warm water to heat cool
water, the smaller the temperature difference along each section, the better
as far as entropy goes.

That is one of the reasons why counter-flow hx are so good. The warm water
is never more than a few degrees above the 'cool' water. Where the 'warm'
water is the hottest, the 'cool' water has already been heated up to almost
the same temperature. And where the 'cool' water is the coldest, the 'warm'
water has already been cooled to almost the same temperature.

Compared to a parallel flow, where the 'warm' and 'cool' water start out
with vastly different temperatures and aproach each other over the length of
piping.

With your 'infinite' tank idea, you end up with very cold greywater, but the
freshwater is hardly warmed at all. Making the two tanks nearly equal, you
approach the limits for a parallel flow system (e.g. grey and fresh leave at
the same temperature, about (100+55)/2 = 77.5F.

I take it you've considered what the pressure drop would be with the flow
rates? Check the greywater side pressure drop carefully. Although you have
larger x-section, the *available* driving pressure for a shower drain is
just a few feet of water.

daestrom

wrote in message
...
Robert Gammon wrote:

Flat spiral == 7 feet diameter, 2 feet high...

... 4" high, fool.


Well, if by 'spiral' you mean some sort of serpentine.

Since the pipe is nominally 4", to get a spiral (even a 'flat spiral'), you
need at least 8" where one turn crosses over the other ;-)

7' diameter coils for 100' total length means about 18 turns. Coiled in a
vertical stack and then 'shoved' off to the side to spread the coils out
nearly flat would take a floor space 7' wide and about 72' long (18 turns
spaced about 4' apart). That's a tad much floor space for most folks ;-)

daestrom

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
Robert Gammon wrote:

Flat spiral == 7 feet diameter, 2 feet high...

... 4" high, fool.


Well, if by 'spiral' you mean some sort of serpentine.

Since the pipe is nominally 4", to get a spiral (even a 'flat spiral'),
you need at least 8" where one turn crosses over the other ;-)

7' diameter coils for 100' total length means about 18 turns. Coiled in a
vertical stack and then 'shoved' off to the side to spread the coils out
nearly flat would take a floor space 7' wide and about 72' long (18 turns
spaced about 4' apart). That's a tad much floor space for most folks ;-)


No, that can't be right :-(

7' diameter coils for 100' total length is only about 4.5 turns. Spread out
in a flat spiral, that would be 7' wide and about 16' feet long. Still a
fair piece of real-estate.

daestrom

daestrom wrote:

Flat spiral == 7 feet diameter, 2 feet high...

... 4" high, fool.


Well, if by 'spiral' you mean some sort of serpentine.

A mere disk, only 1 layer tall.

Since the pipe is nominally 4", to get a spiral (even a 'flat spiral'),
you need at least 8" where one turn crosses over the other ;-)

.... with no crossings.

7' diameter coils for 100' total length is only about 4.5 turns. Spread out
in a flat spiral, that would be 7' wide and about 16' feet long. Still a
fair piece of real-estate.

I think we have some posting delay, and you musta missed this posting:

Article 111798 of alt.energy.homepower:
From:
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.homep ower,
misc.consumers.frugal-living
Subject: GFX vs home brew
Date: 15 Apr 2006 15:46:00 -0400
Organization: Villanova University

daestrom wrote:

... who has space for 100' of 4" pipe (vertical, coiled or otherwise).[?]

The 4" tall spiral hung under a basement ceiling would be about 7'
in diameter. The 6' tall coil would occupy a 2.7' floor circle.
It seems simpler to install and might have better stratification.

10 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 D=4.25'pipe OD (inches)
30 L=100'pipe length (feet)
40 DI=2'coil ID (feet)
50 DO=DI+2*D/12'coil OD (feet)
60 CI=PI*DI'inner circumference (feet)
70 NT=L/CI'number of turns
80 H=NT*D/12'coil height (feet)
90 PRINT D,DI,DO,NT,H

4.25 2 2.708333 15.91549 5.636738

10 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 D=4.25'pipe OD (inches)
30 L=100'pipe length (feet)
40 A=D*L/12'pipe area (ft^2)
50 DI=2'flat spiral ID (feet)
60 DO=2*SQR(A/PI+(DI/2)^2)'spiral OD (feet)
70 NT=12*(DO-DI)/2/D'number of turns
80 PRINT D,DI,DO,NT

4.25 2 7.006704 7.068288

Nick

Rod Speed wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote

Rod Speed wrote

Robert Gammon wrote

wrote:



A 200' version makes 82%...



But that's pretty big. How about this?



We collect all the shower water in a tank, with an infinite cold
water tank next to it, then circulate the cold water through a coil
in the shower tank until it all cools to the cold water temp...
Then again, infinite tanks are hard to come by.



So maybe mix hot and cold fresh water to 90 F and circulate that
through the coil until the shower tank drops from 100 to 95, then
pump some of the 95 F fresh water back into the hot water tank and
add enough
cold fresh water to make the fresh mix 85, then circulate for a
while, then pump some 90 F fresh water back into the hot water tank
and add enough cold water to make the fresh mix 80, and so on. How
can we do this automatically, on a continuous basis? We need a 20
gallon expansion tank too. Lots of pumping, but little energy, if the
hot and cold supplies stay pressurized.



At some point the water needs to be heated to about 140F to kill
bacteria before use in showers and baths.



No it doesnt.



Do a little research and you will find that Canada HAS such a spec.


More fool canada. You cant ignore chlorination.


Not Canada, Australia has the spec

http://www.dux.com.au/tech_domestictemp.htm

Read this page, it describes EXACTLY what happened to me at 4 years of
age, why hot water heaters have this spec and why tempering valves can
be a valuable addition to homes with either very your children or the
elderly.

Robert Gammon wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Robert Gammon wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Robert Gammon wrote
wrote:

We collect all the shower water in a tank, with an infinite cold
water tank next to it, then circulate the cold water through a
coil in the shower tank until it all cools to the cold water
temp... Then again, infinite tanks are hard to come by.

So maybe mix hot and cold fresh water to 90 F and circulate that
through the coil until the shower tank drops from 100 to 95, then
pump some of the 95 F fresh water back into the hot water tank
and add enough
cold fresh water to make the fresh mix 85, then circulate for a
while, then pump some 90 F fresh water back into the hot water
tank and add enough cold water to make the fresh mix 80, and so
on. How can we do this automatically, on a continuous basis? We
need a 20 gallon expansion tank too. Lots of pumping, but little
energy, if the hot and cold supplies stay pressurized.

At some point the water needs to be heated to about 140F to kill
bacteria before use in showers and baths.

No it doesnt.

Do a little research and you will find that Canada HAS such a spec.

More fool canada. You cant ignore chlorination.

Not Canada, Australia has the spec

http://www.dux.com.au/tech_domestictemp.htm

Read this page, it describes EXACTLY what happened to me at 4 years of
age, why hot water heaters have this spec and why tempering valves can
be a valuable addition to homes with either very your children or the
elderly.

Irrelevant to what is being discussed, whether water
MUST be heated to over 140F to kill bacteria. That
clearly isnt necessary if the water is chlorinated town
supply and the water isnt stored on site before use.

We dont bother to heat the cold water to over
140F before using it in the kitchen, for a reason.

wrote in message
...
daestrom wrote:

Flat spiral == 7 feet diameter, 2 feet high...

... 4" high, fool.


Well, if by 'spiral' you mean some sort of serpentine.

A mere disk, only 1 layer tall.

Since the pipe is nominally 4", to get a spiral (even a 'flat spiral'),
you need at least 8" where one turn crosses over the other ;-)

... with no crossings.

7' diameter coils for 100' total length is only about 4.5 turns. Spread
out
in a flat spiral, that would be 7' wide and about 16' feet long. Still a
fair piece of real-estate.

I think we have some posting delay, and you musta missed this posting:


Yah, I think so.

I was thinking of a helical arrangement, you're talking about a spiral like
a phonograph groove.

Yes, it could be that small.

daestrom

In alt.solar.thermal Robert Gammon wrote:
Not Canada, Australia has the spec

http://www.dux.com.au/tech_domestictemp.htm

I thought that was because of the peculiarity of bacteria in the wooden
dams that hold the water supply for the area around Sydney, NSW.

Certainly not a worldwide norm.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

In alt.solar.thermal daestrom wrote:

I was thinking of a helical arrangement, you're talking about a spiral like
a phonograph groove.

What do you do when you get to the center of the phonograph?
Isn't there still at least one crossover needed?

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

wrote
Robert Gammon wrote

Not Canada, Australia has the spec

http://www.dux.com.au/tech_domestictemp.htm

I thought that was because of the peculiarity of bacteria in the wooden
dams that hold the water supply for the area around Sydney, NSW.

No such animal.

Certainly not a worldwide norm.

Precisely the same type of dams are used around Sydney
as are use virtually everywhere else in the first world.

phhhht......phhhht......phhhht......phhhht......ph hhht......phhhht......

Hit the reject button to get the needle back.

wrote in message
...
In alt.solar.thermal daestrom
wrote:

I was thinking of a helical arrangement, you're talking about a
spiral like
a phonograph groove.

What do you do when you get to the center of the phonograph?
Isn't there still at least one crossover needed?

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

wrote:

In alt.solar.thermal daestrom wrote:

I was thinking of a helical arrangement, you're talking about a spiral like
a phonograph groove.

What do you do when you get to the center of the phonograph?
Isn't there still at least one crossover needed?

Greywater might enter and leave via the upper vertical arm of a 4" PVC T
at each end of the corrugated drainpipe spiral. Fresh water might enter
and leave via the ends of the Ts.

Nick

Suppose we take a shower and collect 100 F greywater in the upper part of
a $30 100'x4" black plastic corrugated drainpipe coil containing 3 $20
100'x1" pieces of black plastic polyethylene pipe, with bidirectional
plug flow, like this, viewed in a fixed font like Courier:

shower
in
| ----------------------------------------- hot water to shower
| | Tl |
--------- sewer ---------
| | Tg | out | 120F |
| | | | |
| | | ^ | |
| | | | | |
| |1" |4" | | tank |
| | | | | water |
| | | | | heater |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | |---- | |
| | | | 55F |
--------- P ---------
| ---- Tc |
-----------------| - |------------------- cold water supply
----

Now we disable the water heater and run a slow, low-power pump P
(eg Grainger's $120 4PC86 (Taco 003-BC4-2) 1/40 HP 120V 0.43A pump)
if Tg - Tl 5 F and Tg - Tc 5 F, and enable the water heater again
when Tg - Tc 5 F...

Is this a GFX-Star? It's hard to tell from the website description.

20 UPIPE=78.5'U-value of 10' section of 3 1" pipes (Btu/h-F)
30 CFRESH=1.25*8.33'thermal capacitance of 10' of fresh water (Btu/F)
40 VGREY=10*3.14159*(2/12)^2'volume of 10' of greywater (ft^3)
50 CGREY=VGREY*62.33-CFRESH'thermal capacitance of 10' of greywater (Btu/F)
60 CSERIES=CFRESH*CGREY/(CFRESH+CGREY)'caps in series (Btu/F)
70 RC=CSERIES/UPIPE'combined time constant (hours)
80 EXPF=EXP(-1/60/RC)'exponential factor
90 FOR SHOWER = 1 TO 100'simulate showers
100 FOR M=0 TO 89'simulate 10 min shower every 90 minutes
110 IF M9 GOTO 220'rest vs shower
120 IF SHOWER 100 GOTO 150
140 PRINT 400+M;"'";M,TG(9)
150 TGT=TG(0)'save original Tg(0) for later Tg(1) calc
160 TG(0)=(100*CFRESH+TG(0)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater in
170 FOR S=1 TO 9'pipe section (9-fresh water in and greywater out)
180 TGP=TG(S)'buffer
190 TG(S)=(TGT*CFRESH+TG(S)*(CGREY-CFRESH))/CGREY'move greywater down
200 TGT=TGP'buffer
210 NEXT S
220 IF (TG(0)-TF(0))5 OR TG(0)60 GOTO 290'no pumping
230 PUMP=PUMP+1'pump in fresh water at bottom
240 IF SHOWER49 THEN HEAT=HEAT+CFRESH*(TF(0)-55)'gain from gw
250 FOR S=0 TO 8'shift fresh water up
260 TF(S)=TF(S+1)
270 NEXT S
280 TF(9)=55'move cold water in at the bottom
290 FOR S=0 TO 9'rest
300 TFINAL=(TF(S)*CFRESH+TG(S)*CGREY)/(CFRESH+CGREY)
310 TF(S)=TFINAL+(TF(S)-TFINAL)*EXPF'new fresh temp (F)
320 TG(S)=TFINAL+(TG(S)-TFINAL)*EXPF'new grey temp (F)
330 NEXT S
340 NEXT M
350 NEXT SHOWER
360 SHOWERGY=50*10*CFRESH*(100-55)'50 showers with no GWHX (Btu)
370 PRINT HEAT,SHOWERGY,HEAT/SHOWERGY,PUMP

time gwout
(min) (F)

0 55.50439
1 55.66506
2 55.83802
3 56.02375
4 56.22276
5 56.43565
6 56.66306
7 56.90572
8 57.16441
9 57.43995

231607 234281.3 .9885854 1458

Looks good on paper, with 98.9% heat recovery :-)

Nick

wrote:
Suppose we take a shower and collect 100 F greywater in the upper part of
a $30 100'x4" black plastic corrugated drainpipe coil containing 3 $20
100'x1" pieces of black plastic polyethylene pipe, with bidirectional
plug flow, like this, viewed in a fixed font like Courier:

shower
in
| ----------------------------------------- hot water to shower
| | Tl |
--------- sewer ---------
| | Tg | out | 120F |
| | | | |
| | | ^ | |
| | | | | |
| |1" |4" | | tank |
| | | | | water |
| | | | | heater |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | |---- | |
| | | | 55F |
--------- P ---------
| ---- Tc |
-----------------| - |------------------- cold water supply
----

This is so very very close to a GFX Star it isn't funny

What the Dr argues for is a el-cheapo electric water heater that is used
solely as a storage tank. The inlet to the pump is thru a check valve
that ties to the drain connection of the water heater/storage tank. Hot
out of the heat exchanger then goes to TWO places.

1. To a tempering valve to limit scald risk. the other input of the
tempering valve is the output of the normal hot water supply (electric,
NG, LP, or same inputs tank less)

2. Cold in on the water heater/storage tank.

Hot Out of the water heater/storage tank goes to Cold in on the normal
water heater.

Nick's figures and the Power-Pipe folks argue that the heat recovery is
equivalent to a 12-18KW electric heating element (for a 60 inch GFX).
In testing of the the GFX done at at least a couple of universities,
they found that the upper heating element in an electric water heater
NEVER TURNED ON in ANY of their testing.

The heat recovery of a GFX when used in this configuration jump 15-20
percentage points and becomes an almost level 65-75% Course we will
have 2KW/day losses in that storage tank. But with a CONSTANT input ot
the normal Hot water heater of 85-90 F, it will merely LOAF along to
deliver the HOT water needed.

One of the reasons for the higher heat recovery is that the flow rate
thru the coil LEAPS. The Taco pumps will move up to 20Gal/hr depending
on model to 20 feet. More realistically a Taco 006 or Taco 008 will
delvier upwards of 10Gal/hr at 10 feet of height. Now we have 2x-4x
MORE flow thru the coil than is flowing in the greywater. The graphs on
the GFX web site illustrate what happens with higher coild flow rates.

GFX Star controls the pump via one of two methods

a. Timer - showers at KNOWN times EVERY day

b. Differential temperature controller -sensors on coil and inlet to the
heat exchanger (GFX or Nick's) will trigger the pump when temp
difference exceeds a set point - i.e. 2 or 3 degrees

Robert Gammon wrote:

Suppose we take a shower and collect 100 F greywater in the upper part of
a $30 100'x4" black plastic corrugated drainpipe coil containing 3 $20
100'x1" pieces of black plastic polyethylene pipe, with bidirectional
plug flow, like this, viewed in a fixed font like Courier:

shower
in
| ----------------------------------------- hot water to shower
| | Tl |
--------- sewer ---------
| | Tg | out | 120F |
| | | | |
| | | ^ | |
| | | | | |
| |1" |4" | | tank |
| | | | | water |
| | | | | heater |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | |---- | |
| | | | 55F |
--------- P ---------
| ---- Tc |
-----------------| - |------------------- cold water supply
----

This is so very very close to a GFX Star it isn't funny

I'm still not clear on that, after talking with Carmine again. One diff
might be beneficial stratification in the greywater drainpipe, vs full
mixing in a conventional greywater tank. At any rate, with 98.9% heat
recovery, we might heat 50K Btu/day of water with 550 Btu/day, eg
a 7 watt night light burning 24 hours per day :-)

Nick's figures and the Power-Pipe folks argue that the heat recovery is
equivalent to a 12-18KW electric heating element (for a 60 inch GFX).

Dr. V got US Customs to sieze Power Pipes at the border, based on a
theft-of-trade-secrets charge, but they seem to have gotten around that.

In testing of the the GFX done at at least a couple of universities,
they found that the upper heating element in an electric water heater
NEVER TURNED ON in ANY of their testing.

We also discussed some testing techniques that were biased against GFX.

The heat recovery of a GFX when used in this configuration jump 15-20
percentage points and becomes an almost level 65-75%

Maybe a lot more, with greywater plug flow.

One of the reasons for the higher heat recovery is that the flow rate
thru the coil LEAPS. The Taco pumps will move up to 20Gal/hr depending
on model to 20 feet. More realistically a Taco 006 or Taco 008 will
delvier upwards of 10Gal/hr at 10 feet of height. Now we have 2x-4x
MORE flow thru the coil than is flowing in the greywater.

That isn't part of my scheme, but another circulating pump could increase
the velocity through the coil and the conductance inside the coil...

GFX Star controls the pump via one of two methods

a. Timer - showers at KNOWN times EVERY day

b. Differential temperature controller -sensors on coil and inlet to the
heat exchanger (GFX or Nick's) will trigger the pump when temp
difference exceeds a set point - i.e. 2 or 3 degrees

That's quite different. No timing for me, and I'd turn on the pump when
the gw-fw temp diff at the output is LESS than 5 degrees.

Nick

Power-Pipe now has a US web site that gets them around the customs issue.

The pump with differential temperature control is the secret to higher
recovery rates. Flow rate thru the coil in excess of flow rate of
greywater will more efficiently transfer heat to the potable water.

Actually you could take this a step further and use a water storage tank
intended for solar applications. It has an internal heat exchanger, and
you could route a working fluid thru Nick's, a GFX, or a Power-Pipe that
was NOT water for higher heat capacity.

wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:


Suppose we take a shower and collect 100 F greywater in the upper part of
a $30 100'x4" black plastic corrugated drainpipe coil containing 3 $20
100'x1" pieces of black plastic polyethylene pipe, with bidirectional
plug flow, like this, viewed in a fixed font like Courier:

shower
in
| ----------------------------------------- hot water to shower
| | Tl |
--------- sewer ---------
| | Tg | out | 120F |
| | | | |
| | | ^ | |
| | | | | |
| |1" |4" | | tank |
| | | | | water |
| | | | | heater |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | |---- | |
| | | | 55F |
--------- P ---------
| ---- Tc |
-----------------| - |------------------- cold water supply
----


This is so very very close to a GFX Star it isn't funny


I'm still not clear on that, after talking with Carmine again. One diff
might be beneficial stratification in the greywater drainpipe, vs full
mixing in a conventional greywater tank. At any rate, with 98.9% heat
recovery, we might heat 50K Btu/day of water with 550 Btu/day, eg
a 7 watt night light burning 24 hours per day :-)


Nick's figures and the Power-Pipe folks argue that the heat recovery is
equivalent to a 12-18KW electric heating element (for a 60 inch GFX).


Dr. V got US Customs to sieze Power Pipes at the border, based on a
theft-of-trade-secrets charge, but they seem to have gotten around that.


In testing of the the GFX done at at least a couple of universities,
they found that the upper heating element in an electric water heater
NEVER TURNED ON in ANY of their testing.


We also discussed some testing techniques that were biased against GFX.


The heat recovery of a GFX when used in this configuration jump 15-20
percentage points and becomes an almost level 65-75%


Maybe a lot more, with greywater plug flow.


One of the reasons for the higher heat recovery is that the flow rate
thru the coil LEAPS. The Taco pumps will move up to 20Gal/hr depending
on model to 20 feet. More realistically a Taco 006 or Taco 008 will
delvier upwards of 10Gal/hr at 10 feet of height. Now we have 2x-4x
MORE flow thru the coil than is flowing in the greywater.


That isn't part of my scheme, but another circulating pump could increase
the velocity through the coil and the conductance inside the coil...


GFX Star controls the pump via one of two methods

a. Timer - showers at KNOWN times EVERY day

b. Differential temperature controller -sensors on coil and inlet to the
heat exchanger (GFX or Nick's) will trigger the pump when temp
difference exceeds a set point - i.e. 2 or 3 degrees


That's quite different. No timing for me, and I'd turn on the pump when
the gw-fw temp diff at the output is LESS than 5 degrees.

Nick

Robert Gammon misunderstands again:

Power-Pipe now has a US web site that gets them around the customs issue.

That's irrelevant.

The pump with differential temperature control is the secret to higher
recovery rates. Flow rate thru the coil in excess of flow rate of
greywater will more efficiently transfer heat to the potable water.

That's quite different from what I have in mind.

How do you manage to be so wrong so often? :-)

Nick

wrote:
Robert Gammon misunderstands again:


Power-Pipe now has a US web site that gets them around the customs issue.


That's irrelevant.


The pump with differential temperature control is the secret to higher
recovery rates. Flow rate thru the coil in excess of flow rate of
greywater will more efficiently transfer heat to the potable water.


That's quite different from what I have in mind.

How do you manage to be so wrong so often? :-)

Nick


Goto www.gfxtechnology.com/GFX-STAR.html and click on Application Notes
and click on the link to Retrofit of an existing Solar Hot Water Heater.

You sir, need to READ first, before you make accusations that you cannot
back up with facts.

In there he describes a patent pending application of GFX Star in an
industrial process control application.

The models of what happens to the efficiency of his product with
changing potable water flows thru the equipment are there for all to see.

Your attitude makes it DIFFICULT to hold a meaningful conversation with
you. I'm not the first to say this.

My use of one of these, whether it is yours, a GFX, or a Power Pipe will
closely follow the GFX Star guidelines. That is, a small, inexpensive
pump controlled by a differential temperature controller will move water
thru the coils ALWAYS in excess of water draw from the hot water tank.
Very nearly 100% of my ho****er use WILL be going thru a heat exchanger,
and with 4x coil flow to drain flow in almost all of my cases,
efficiency of a 60inch S4 rises to over 74%.

I will NOT hang a 7 foot diameter coil of black PE tubing on the wall of
my utility room, one that needs annual disassembly to hose down/ brush
down the interior of the gray water containment pipe. Neither GFX nor
Power-Pipe need such cleaning as they are NON clogging, even with BLACK
water. Things may back up upstream or downstream of them, but not
inside them.

OK, its not the 90+% that your model shows, but efficiency and cost are
NOT the only criteria as we have already discussed.

Actually since he has a Patent application pending, if you attempt to
offer a competing product to others that incorporates the ideas of
GFX-Star, he can and probably WILL sue you for damages and shut down
your business.

And since he has hundreds of these installed in the US and Canada, he
has a BIG headstart on you.

In alt.solar.thermal Rod Speed wrote:
wrote
I thought that was because of the peculiarity of bacteria in the wooden
dams that hold the water supply for the area around Sydney, NSW.

Precisely the same type of dams are used around Sydney
as are use virtually everywhere else in the first world.

I am remembering my visit incorrectly, then.
My host, in Mossman, pointed out the risk of the DWH temperature, and
commented on the wood that was a part of his water supply, reaching up and
picking a sliver out of the nozzle in the shower.

What explanation is there for this heat requirement, which doesn't exist in
most other parts of the first world?

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

In alt.solar.thermal wrote:
wrote:
What do you do when you get to the center of the phonograph?
Isn't there still at least one crossover needed?

Greywater might enter and leave via the upper vertical arm of a 4" PVC T
at each end of the corrugated drainpipe spiral. Fresh water might enter
and leave via the ends of the Ts.

Ah, you're not counting those Ts as part of the height of the unit, because
it disappears magically into the rest of the plumbing. But the unit and
it's accompanying plumbing cannot exist in a 4" high space.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote

I thought that was because of the peculiarity
of bacteria in the wooden dams that hold the
water supply for the area around Sydney, NSW.

Precisely the same type of dams are used around Sydney
as are use virtually everywhere else in the first world.

I am remembering my visit incorrectly, then.

My host, in Mossman, pointed out the risk of the DWH temperature,
and commented on the wood that was a part of his water supply,
reaching up and picking a sliver out of the nozzle in the shower.

He was clearly pulling your leg.

What explanation is there for this heat requirement,

Basically storage hot water services can end up with
a significant problem if they arent run at a high enough
temperature to kill bacteria, in situations where the
water supply isnt chlorinated like with wells etc.

which doesn't exist in most other parts of the first world?

It does actually. Most obviously with Legionaire's Disease.

And the use of unchlorinated wells with residential
property is much more common in north america too.

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...
Power-Pipe now has a US web site that gets them around the customs issue.

The pump with differential temperature control is the secret to higher
recovery rates. Flow rate thru the coil in excess of flow rate of
greywater will more efficiently transfer heat to the potable water.

Actually you could take this a step further and use a water storage tank
intended for solar applications. It has an internal heat exchanger, and
you could route a working fluid thru Nick's, a GFX, or a Power-Pipe that
was NOT water for higher heat capacity.


What working fluid would that be? Water has a much higher heat capacity
than most any other fluid you're likely to find/afford. Best to stick with
simple water.

As regards to increasing fresh-water flow, the GFX folks recommend plumbing
so that the cold water enters the heat-exchanger *before* splitting to go to
the hot-water heater and the cold tap in the shower. So the 'cold' water
side of the shower is pre-heated (need less 'hot' water to stay comfortable)
as well as the inlet to the hot-water heater. This raises the flow on the
fresh-water side to equal the greywater flow.

Putting a pump to circulate between the 'dip tube' into the heater, and the
drain could improve the circulation through the fresh-water side of the gfx.
But you best be sure to insulate the piping. But with this setup would you
still want the heat-exchanger's fresh-water outlet going to the cold shower
tap?

I'm a bit skeptical. After all, the greywater coming in is cooler than the
hot-water heater until you've cooled the bottom of the tank. But the bottom
of the tank is receiving fresh-water out of the hx. Increasing the flow
through the hx with a pump is going to put warm water into the hx inlet,
mixing with the cold water from the main. Then sending the mixture of cold
inlet water, and warm water from the heater drain into the hx. Just so you
can put warmer water back into the bottom of the heater via the 'dip tube'.
Net results seem to be higher flow, but the average temperature of the
fresh-water side of the hx is higher and the greywater outlet temperature
will be higher. I would wonder if the increase in heat transfer due to
higher flow on one side only can make up for the lower temperature
difference across the heat-exchanger walls.

daestrom

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. net...
wrote:
Robert Gammon misunderstands again:
snip
Goto www.gfxtechnology.com/GFX-STAR.html and click on Application Notes
and click on the link to Retrofit of an existing Solar Hot Water Heater.

You sir, need to READ first, before you make accusations that you cannot
back up with facts.

In there he describes a patent pending application of GFX Star in an
industrial process control application.

The models of what happens to the efficiency of his product with changing
potable water flows thru the equipment are there for all to see.


Okay, *I* read the documents. It is clear that you must have a separate
storage tank for the GFX-star setup to work 'as advertised'. Only by using
a *cooler* separate storage tank is the setup able to capture the waste heat
from 'batch' drains. Once the storage tank reaches the temperature of the
greywater (or exceeds it in the conventional heater storage tank),
performance will drop off.

This way can effectively 'shift' the heat from outgoing batch drains to a
separate storage tank of fresh-water. So the greywater doesn't have to be
stored, and you can still use the low-maintenance, straight-bore, GFX
heat-exchanger.

For 'best' performance, you would want to route the storage tank outlet to
the 'cold' tap for the shower as well. This looks like their 'tempering
valve' arrangement. But you might be better off routing straight 'cold'
water from the supply directly to sinks and laundry, bypassing the whole
setup for cold supply to those usage points. Otherwise you would be wasting
some of the captured heat on laundry, and who wants a glass of warm water to
drink. Some more plumbing :-(

Someone mentioned some concerns about storage tank of 'warm' water and
Legionarries disease. But if you have treated water, that probably isn't
too much of a concern.

daestrom

daestrom wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...
Power-Pipe now has a US web site that gets them around the customs
issue.

The pump with differential temperature control is the secret to
higher recovery rates. Flow rate thru the coil in excess of flow
rate of greywater will more efficiently transfer heat to the potable
water.

Actually you could take this a step further and use a water storage
tank intended for solar applications. It has an internal heat
exchanger, and you could route a working fluid thru Nick's, a GFX, or
a Power-Pipe that was NOT water for higher heat capacity.


What working fluid would that be? Water has a much higher heat
capacity than most any other fluid you're likely to find/afford. Best
to stick with simple water.

agreed that water is best, but think of Freon as an alternative.

As regards to increasing fresh-water flow, the GFX folks recommend
plumbing so that the cold water enters the heat-exchanger *before*
splitting to go to the hot-water heater and the cold tap in the
shower. So the 'cold' water side of the shower is pre-heated (need
less 'hot' water to stay comfortable) as well as the inlet to the
hot-water heater. This raises the flow on the fresh-water side to
equal the greywater flow.

Yes, and this works well in heating dominated climates where ground
water temps average less than 50F year round.

But not here with our ground water already in the high 60s to mid 70s (I
measured mine at 75F)

Putting a pump to circulate between the 'dip tube' into the heater,
and the drain could improve the circulation through the fresh-water
side of the gfx. But you best be sure to insulate the piping. But
with this setup would you still want the heat-exchanger's fresh-water
outlet going to the cold shower tap?

Yes, as that tempers the water to a reasonable temp. My water will come
from a well, and I need to set my hot water tank to at least 140F to
kill bacteria.

Foam insulation around piping and the heat exchanger seem to be useful
ideas to conserve energy as does a water heat blanket for the storage tank.

I'm a bit skeptical. After all, the greywater coming in is cooler
than the hot-water heater until you've cooled the bottom of the tank.
But the bottom of the tank is receiving fresh-water out of the hx.
Increasing the flow through the hx with a pump is going to put warm
water into the hx inlet, mixing with the cold water from the main.
Then sending the mixture of cold inlet water, and warm water from the
heater drain into the hx. Just so you can put warmer water back into
the bottom of the heater via the 'dip tube'. Net results seem to be
higher flow, but the average temperature of the fresh-water side of
the hx is higher and the greywater outlet temperature will be higher.
I would wonder if the increase in heat transfer due to higher flow on
one side only can make up for the lower temperature difference across
the heat-exchanger walls.

The flow is from the drain plug at the LOW point of the storage tank
thru the pump to mix with fresh water. Then thru the coil, and back in
to the lower third of the storage tank. There will be mixing that
occurs, however, this storage tank should achieve water temps in the
70-90F range depending on entering fresh water temp.

The idea is shown on the web site best under the solar hot water
retrofit. The application data shows efficiency rising as flow rate
thru the coil increases for a given flow rate down the drain.

Grey water temps may NOT increase at all due to the higher flow rate
(same idea as the heat exchanger itself). This higher flow rate comes
at a price of increased pressure loss and expense.

Coil inlet temp will be higher, but then so will coil outlet temp.