My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

Only if you are planning to use up to 300 or 400 amps, otherwise he is full
of BS, sounds like a sales pitch to get you to pay a premium for the extra
amps. More important is to get a panel with as large a capacity of circuit
breakers as you can, which may take more than one panel to do the job, so
that there are a lot of lightly loaded circuits instead of loading each
circuit to the max. This will give you more "head room" in each circuit so
the ones that end up with a load are not overloaded. Also to provide a
separate circuit for each large load or critical load such as a separate
line for a freezer, etc.

"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

Sanj wrote:

My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?


Rubbish

It only makes sense if your connected load requires it, but has nothing to
do with efficiency


"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

Only in the sense that if larger service entrance conductors were installed
you would have less of a voltage drop and losses from resistive heating that
you would otherwise under very heavy loads. A lot depends on the length of
the drop. If all the facts are known, it can be calculated with reasonable
accuracy (the resistance of the SE conductors and the resulting voltage drop
as a fuinction of current used).

You would have to be using most of that 300A most of the time to see a
difference though. It probably would reduce the incidence of lamp dimming
under heavy load conditions.

I don't think it would make any diffenence in your bill whatsoever since
metering is done after the SE conductors make it to your house. Any energy
lost in the SE conductors as heat (P=I*V or I^2*R) would not be metered.





"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

It depends on your needs and the size of the home. I know a couple with
a 7000 SQ foot home they have two 250 amp main panels. I was told 250
is the largest main home panels available but dont know if this is
true.

Frequently main entrance cable around here is alunimum, I would spend
the extra for copper from the meter can to the main breaker.

sounds like a big home have you included a standby generator for power
failures? thats $ well spent

"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?
I most certainly is more efficient, For his Wallet

Sanj wrote:

My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?



Sounds like you've encountered another sharp cookie selling Girl Scouts.

Why not have fun and ask him to explain to you in writing why it will be
more efficient.

Jeff (Who hates guys like that....)

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

The bigger you go the more he makes.

wrote in message
oups.com...
It depends on your needs and the size of the home. I know a couple with
a 7000 SQ foot home they have two 250 amp main panels. I was told 250
is the largest main home panels available but dont know if this is
true.

Frequently main entrance cable around here is alunimum, I would spend
the extra for copper from the meter can to the main breaker.

Why? The electricity doesn't know the difference.

sounds like a big home have you included a standby generator for power
failures? thats $ well spent

Why would it be better spent in a big home than in a small one?

"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

Just a techinical issue, I am unaware of any manufacture that makes a 300
amp service.

Get a service for the load. Bigger is not better in this case.

I will provide my address if you feel the need to give away money
needlessly.

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:46:04 -0400, "Eric Tonks"
etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote:

Only if you are planning to use up to 300 or 400 amps, otherwise he is full
of BS, sounds like a sales pitch to get you to pay a premium for the extra
amps. More important is to get a panel with as large a capacity of circuit
breakers as you can, which may take more than one panel to do the job, so
that there are a lot of lightly loaded circuits instead of loading each
circuit to the max.

I agree with you.

But you remind me of a long time question I've had.

When I lived in a 1930 apartment building, the fuse box in my apt. had
2 slo-blo 15 amp fuses, and in the basement the fuse that served my
apt. was 1 slo-blo 20 amp fuse.

I was told this was bad, because 2 x 15 = 30 which was more than 20.
I was told the sum of the fuses downstream should never be more than
the upstream fuse. Any truth to this????**

I sort of figured first, that the landlord would not rewire the whole
building and I needed my 30 amps, so I should keep my mouth shut.
second, the building had been working this way since
1930 and there were no electrical fires, and that's still true today,
75 years after construction.
and third, the 20 amp fuse in the basement would protect
the 12 gauge wire from the basement to the 5th floor. That was its
job. But there were sometimes I would use 14 amps through one fuse
and 5 through the other, and that would be under 15, and under 20
total so what's wrong with that. Anything higher would blow one fuse
or the other.

**If there is any truth to the idea that two 15 amp fuses can't feed a
20 amp fuse, why is it all right for the sum of all my circuit
breakers to be greater than the main serving my house. I have cb's
totally 200 or more amps now, and room in the box for in the box for
120 amps more. Maybe more. I'll never use anywhere near all of it
at once, but if this is ok, why was my apartment setup not ok??


BTW, slo-blo is only 5 or 10 seconds, right? It's more than 1/2
second like non-slo-blo, but no where near 30 seconds, is all of this
so?


This will give you more "head room" in each circuit so
the ones that end up with a load are not overloaded. Also to provide a
separate circuit for each large load or critical load such as a separate
line for a freezer, etc.

"Sanj" wrote in message news:u_zZf.64$ee6.4@trndny01...
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can
one of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

In article , mm wrote:

But you remind me of a long time question I've had.

When I lived in a 1930 apartment building, the fuse box in my apt. had
2 slo-blo 15 amp fuses, and in the basement the fuse that served my
apt. was 1 slo-blo 20 amp fuse.

I was told this was bad, because 2 x 15 = 30 which was more than 20.
I was told the sum of the fuses downstream should never be more than
the upstream fuse. Any truth to this????**

Nope. The current is limited to 20A max, no matter what the downstream fuses
are. Fuses are sized to the wiring they protect. Period.


I sort of figured first, that the landlord would not rewire the whole
building and I needed my 30 amps, so I should keep my mouth shut.

You weren't getting 30A, only 20.

second, the building had been working this way since
1930 and there were no electrical fires, and that's still true today,
75 years after construction.

No surprise -- nothing inherently unsafe in what you've described. Silly,
perhaps, but not unsafe.

and third, the 20 amp fuse in the basement would protect
the 12 gauge wire from the basement to the 5th floor. That was its
job. But there were sometimes I would use 14 amps through one fuse
and 5 through the other, and that would be under 15, and under 20
total so what's wrong with that.

Nothing.

Anything higher would blow one fuse
or the other.

**If there is any truth to the idea that two 15 amp fuses can't feed a
20 amp fuse,

Ahh, now that's a different story. Two 15s feeding one 20 is not the same as
one 20 feeding two 15s.

why is it all right for the sum of all my circuit
breakers to be greater than the main serving my house.

It's just not a problem.

I have cb's
totally 200 or more amps now, and room in the box for in the box for
120 amps more. Maybe more. I'll never use anywhere near all of it
at once, but if this is ok,

It is ok, and that's why -- you won't ever use anywhere near all of it at
once. For example, the probability is near zero that you'll ever use your air
conditioner and furnace simultaneously. It's also quite unlikely that all of
the lights in your house will be on at once, or that you'll simultaneously be
using all of your appliances.

why was my apartment setup not ok??

It was ok, at least as you describe.


BTW, slo-blo is only 5 or 10 seconds, right? It's more than 1/2
second like non-slo-blo, but no where near 30 seconds, is all of this
so?

I never timed one, but yeah, it takes a little while, but only a little.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 23:49:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , mm wrote:

But you remind me of a long time question I've had.

When I lived in a 1930 apartment building, the fuse box in my apt. had
2 slo-blo 15 amp fuses, and in the basement the fuse that served my
apt. was 1 slo-blo 20 amp fuse.

I was told this was bad, because 2 x 15 = 30 which was more than 20.
I was told the sum of the fuses downstream should never be more than
the upstream fuse. Any truth to this????**

Nope. The current is limited to 20A max, no matter what the downstream fuses
are. Fuses are sized to the wiring they protect. Period.

OK. I'm happy. It's been a long time but I thought one or two people
said it was bad at the time, and that 2 or 3 others have said it was
bad since then. Whoever did complain to me, it seemed like an
absolutist rule that didn't make sense. I'm glad it's not a rule
after all.

Thanks. Several more reply lines below, but this was the essence of
it.


I sort of figured first, that the landlord would not rewire the whole
building and I needed my 30 amps, so I should keep my mouth shut.

You weren't getting 30A, only 20.

Right. My mistake. I really needed my 20 amps. 4 people for a few
years, and later 2 people and one room air conditioner. I also worked
things out so I could go to the basement to change the fuse in the
middle of the night without bothering the super. I think I replaced a
blown fuse about 10 times in 10 years. Somewhere between 8 and 18. I
vaguely remember a short period where I blew a whole bunch, but I
can't remember why. 18 in ten years doesn't seem like too many.

Compared to I guess 200 amps I have now, I really was not constrained
much by having only 20. Washing machine, no dryer or course, gas
stove. Plenty of lights, radios, I might have had two tv's on at once
once in a while (one in the kitchen), but iirc no roommate (I had
about 20) ever had even one tv. I wonder why not.

second, the building had been working this way since
1930 and there were no electrical fires, and that's still true today,
75 years after construction.

No surprise -- nothing inherently unsafe in what you've described. Silly,
perhaps, but not unsafe.

I think this is typical for 100's or thousands of buldings in NY.
Immigration was high all the time, but especially the 1880's to 1914,
I think it was, so there were plenty of buildings nicer than tenements
being built by the '30's. The war may have prevented much building in
until '45, and after that there was probably more electricity provided
for each apartment.

In the garbage room on our floor (where there was a chute that led to
the basement, where the garbage was first burned and then later
compacted, there was a sticker on the wall: "Save your cans. Defeat
the Axis." They only painted this tiny room every 20 years or so --
it didn't seem to get dirty -- and when they painted in 1980, they
didn't paint over this.

and third, the 20 amp fuse in the basement would protect
the 12 gauge wire from the basement to the 5th floor. That was its
job. But there were sometimes I would use 14 amps through one fuse
and 5 through the other, and that would be under 15, and under 20
total so what's wrong with that.

Nothing.

Anything higher would blow one fuse
or the other.

**If there is any truth to the idea that two 15 amp fuses can't feed a
20 amp fuse,

Ahh, now that's a different story. Two 15s feeding one 20 is not the same as
one 20 feeding two 15s.

I meant to say it the other way. Or I was looking at "feeding" in a
different way. But regardless, I didn't mean anything different from
before.

why is it all right for the sum of all my circuit
breakers to be greater than the main serving my house.

It's just not a problem.

I have cb's
totally 200 or more amps now, and room in the box for in the box for
120 amps more. Maybe more. I'll never use anywhere near all of it
at once, but if this is ok,

It is ok, and that's why -- you won't ever use anywhere near all of it at
once. For example, the probability is near zero that you'll ever use your air
conditioner and furnace simultaneously. It's also quite unlikely that all of
the lights in your house will be on at once, or that you'll simultaneously be
using all of your appliances.

why was my apartment setup not ok??

It was ok, at least as you describe.


BTW, slo-blo is only 5 or 10 seconds, right? It's more than 1/2
second like non-slo-blo, but no where near 30 seconds, is all of this
so?

I never timed one, but yeah, it takes a little while, but only a little.

That's what I thought.

According to mm :
OK. I'm happy. It's been a long time but I thought one or two people
said it was bad at the time, and that 2 or 3 others have said it was
bad since then. Whoever did complain to me, it seemed like an
absolutist rule that didn't make sense. I'm glad it's not a rule
after all.

It better not be, because probably most people would be in violation
of it. The sum of the ampacities of branch breakers in a main panel
is _usually_ higher than the main feed breaker.

[IIRC, the breaker sum in our panel is 3 times the size of the main
breaker.]

BTW, slo-blo is only 5 or 10 seconds, right? It's more than 1/2
second like non-slo-blo, but no where near 30 seconds, is all of this
so?

I never timed one, but yeah, it takes a little while, but only a little.

That's what I thought.

Slo-blos are _specifically_ designed to ride out the startup current surge
of a motor - typically 3-5 times higher than the steady state amp rating
of the motor. If that takes more than 5-10 seconds (eg: the motor is stalled),
the fuse better blow or the wiring might do something real bad (eg: melt).

So, no, you don't want a slo-blow to take much longer than that.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to :

The advantage to a copper conductor from the meter can to breaker box
is minimizing resistance losses. Sure its not much but its still
wasted.

Ah, no. When using aluminum, you're switching to a higher gauge wire,
so the resistance will be about the same.

The issue with aluminum is poorly done/improper terminations. It's
less forgiving of sloppy workmanship than copper. Properly installed,
there are no issues with aluminum feeds.

Individual circuits with aluminum multiply the risk of poor workmanship,
so many/most juridictions no longer permit aluminum for branch circuits.
But with main feeds or subpanel feeds, they're still quite common.

I dont know of anyone who makes a 300 amp service

But 300A and 400A service drops _are_ common. So while they may not
make panels that big, there's nothing to prevent you from splitting
a (say) 400A drop to two 200A panels. If done to code...
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

wrote:
....

I dont know of anyone who makes a 300 amp service


A three hundred ampere service is a four hundred ampere enclosure with a
three hundred ampere breaker or fuses installed, two 150 ampere main
breaker panels installed in parallel from a single set of service entry
conductors, up to six main disconnecting means supplied from a single
set of service entry conductors that are sized to carry 300 amperes, and
the list goes on. The size of an electric service is based on the
calculated load with an allowance, if wanted, for future expansion. The
resultant amperage is the figure that governs the size of the service
entry conductors. The only time that the service Over Current
Protective Device (OCPD) has to match that ampacity is when it consist
of only one OCPD. If it is two or more OCPDs it can exceed the size of
the calculated load by a large amount as long as the calculated load is
within the ampacity of the service entry conductors that are installed.
This is just one of the things that is easy for untrained and
unqualified persons to get wrong when doing electrical installations.
If the eventual connected load exceeds the ampacity of the service entry
conductors the overload can cause a fault in the service entry
conductors that can lead to a burn down and may kindle a structure fire.
Service Entry Conductors do not have short circuit or ground fault
protection. In many cases the only protection they have against
overload is the conscientious work of the electrician in properly
executing the service calculations. This is why some localities do not
permit the use of multiple service disconnecting means that total to
more than the ampacity of the service in individual residential
properties.


240.6 Standard Ampere Ratings.
(A) Fuses and Fixed-Trip Circuit Breakers. The standard ampere ratings
for fuses and inverse time circuit breakers shall be considered 15, 20,
25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 125, 150, 175, 200,
225, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 600, 700, 800, 1000, 1200, 1600,
2000, 2500, 3000, 4000, 5000, and 6000 amperes. Additional standard
ampere ratings for fuses shall be 1, 3, 6, 10, and 601. The use of fuses
and inverse time circuit breakers with nonstandard ampere ratings shall
be permitted.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bubba wrote:
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:31:22 GMT, "Sanj" wrote:

My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?


He is right. While you are at it, make sure you get the extra thick
paint, the more dense drywall, the bigger element light bulbs, the
heavier gauge metal appliances, the dryer lumber, the triple sanded
floors and cabinets with the extra thick polyurethane, quicker curing
concrete and 5 dimensional shingles. All this will help make your home
more energy star and lighter because after your builder removes all
that money from your wallet your home will be much lighter than before
since you wont be carrying all that cash around.
Bubba

Don't forget to order Heavy Water from the water company.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
It depends on your needs and the size of the home. I know a couple with
a 7000 SQ foot home they have two 250 amp main panels. I was told 250
is the largest main home panels available but dont know if this is
true.

Frequently main entrance cable around here is alunimum, I would spend
the extra for copper from the meter can to the main breaker.

Why? The electricity doesn't know the difference.

Actually Al is better for heavy gague service entrance conductors. The
metal oxidizes less, it weighs less and it stands up to the elements better
than Cu if the jacket is damaged (due to the thin patina of oxide). You
only need slightly more metal to get the same resistivity as Cu but these
things are over engineered anyway. Al also expands less than Cu which is an
advantage for long overhead lines to reduce droop in the summer. Other than
that, in a poll, 4 out of 5 electrons don't care what metal they are in.


sounds like a big home have you included a standby generator for power
failures? thats $ well spent

Why would it be better spent in a big home than in a small one?


Rule of thumb, more house, more lights, plugs and loads. A smaller house
(~100SF) could justify so much current but it would need a big load like a
Kiln or an electrically heated pool.

replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 11:08:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

He might want to think about downsizing the heater to 24KW,
understanding that that might limit the hot water he can use at any
one time. The things that will end up competing will be an electric
range and the dryer but if you have 100a to work with that might not
be problem 99% of the time. Only having 50 could be problematic.
Without a load calc it is really hard to say what he can do.
I tend to agree with you, tankless water heaters may have a very long
payback time if you don't have natural gas.

To the OP, have you looked at what the cost will be to upgrade? You
can probably just put in a 320a "meter main" change the feeder from
there to your existing panel with "4 wire" add a grounding bus or two
and feed the new water heater from the meter main.
You are likely still talking about close to a grand by the time you
are done with the service. It will take a long time to make that back,
just saving the lostr heat from youe existing water heater. Remember
in the winter, there is no lost heat at all if you are running the
furnace.

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 2:38:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 11:08:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

He might want to think about downsizing the heater to 24KW,
understanding that that might limit the hot water he can use at any
one time. The things that will end up competing will be an electric
range and the dryer but if you have 100a to work with that might not
be problem 99% of the time. Only having 50 could be problematic.
Without a load calc it is really hard to say what he can do.
I tend to agree with you, tankless water heaters may have a very long
payback time if you don't have natural gas.


The payback is even worse if you have natural gas. They suck up gas
like they suck up electricity, so you typically have to run a bigger
gas pipe from some big tap off, maybe even all the way from the
meter. And gas heats cheaper, so that makes the pay back take longer.
Here, the summer gas bill is under $20, which includes hot water and
some gas grilling. What you're saving is mostly the standby cost,
of the $20, that can't be all that much. Even if it's half, $10 x
12 months = $120. And I just have a basic water heater, for a couple
hundred more you can get higher efficiency too. Running gas, the cost
of the unit, it's a lot to pay back.





To the OP, have you looked at what the cost will be to upgrade? You
can probably just put in a 320a "meter main" change the feeder from
there to your existing panel with "4 wire" add a grounding bus or two
and feed the new water heater from the meter main.
You are likely still talking about close to a grand by the time you
are done with the service. It will take a long time to make that back,
just saving the lostr heat from youe existing water heater. Remember
in the winter, there is no lost heat at all if you are running the
furnace.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 20:35:01 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Fri 25 May 2018 10:44:02a, Mistert told us...

replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live
here retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200
not 300 amp svce. and we never have 2 showers at once just a load
of clothes. Do I have to add more elect'l service?


More could have been mentioned about what you have in your home. It
would be better to take a complete invenory of your home's contents
that use electricity than to guess at it.

When we bought our condo (only 1500 sq, ft.)it had a 200 amp panel
(it had already been upgraded from a 100 amp panelsome years before
that). Knowing all of the electrically dependant items in our condo,
we added a second 200 amp panel to handle any possible combination of
electric usage. We have the following:

HE washer and dryer
2 dishwashers
1 electrically operated hot tub
2 Jacuzzi bathtubs
electric range
warming drawer
induction cooktop
2 1300watt microwave oven
numerous countertop appliances
central a/c
central electric furnace
a tankless water heater dedicated to serving our washing machine
The rest of our hot water supplied from a central boiler.
a vast number electronic devices, many of which opeate 24/7
ceiling fans in every room that operate 24/7

an elaborate installation of outdoor lighting
at least 5-6 light fixtures or lamps in each room

That probably doesn't cover everthing, but we never wanted the risk
of tripping a breaker, and never had except for a shorted out
appliance. We had several brown-outs, but that was external to the
panels in our home.

In our case it wa easier and less costly to add a second panel than
to upgrade the existing panel.

We have replaced most of our incandescent light bulbs with LEDs
wherever possible. However, out bathroom light fixtures use
proprietary halogen light bulbs.

Sorry for the long discourse!
So you have 2 meters too?
If not you have a 400 amp service.
To do that here I would need to have another service feed brought in
from the underground transformer vault at a cost of some $8000 -
Whether I went for a 400 amp oor 2 200s - or even to put in a single
200, as my underground feed is only good for 150. (So I upgraded to a
150 amp panel when I replaced my old 100amp fused service entrance
panel)

On Fri, 25 May 2018 15:04:14 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 2:38:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 11:08:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

He might want to think about downsizing the heater to 24KW,
understanding that that might limit the hot water he can use at any
one time. The things that will end up competing will be an electric
range and the dryer but if you have 100a to work with that might not
be problem 99% of the time. Only having 50 could be problematic.
Without a load calc it is really hard to say what he can do.
I tend to agree with you, tankless water heaters may have a very long
payback time if you don't have natural gas.


The payback is even worse if you have natural gas. They suck up gas
like they suck up electricity, so you typically have to run a bigger
gas pipe from some big tap off, maybe even all the way from the
meter. And gas heats cheaper, so that makes the pay back take longer.
Here, the summer gas bill is under $20, which includes hot water and
some gas grilling. What you're saving is mostly the standby cost,
of the $20, that can't be all that much. Even if it's half, $10 x
12 months = $120. And I just have a basic water heater, for a couple
hundred more you can get higher efficiency too. Running gas, the cost
of the unit, it's a lot to pay back.

It is worse than that. If the furnace is on, there is no lost heat at
all. It still goes to warming the house. It is like all of the other
energy you use in winter. The only real wasted energy is what escapes
the envelope of the house and the hot water you send down the drain.

On 5/25/2018 6:04 PM, trader_4 wrote:
The payback is even worse if you have natural gas. They suck up gas
like they suck up electricity, so you typically have to run a bigger
gas pipe from some big tap off, maybe even all the way from the
meter. And gas heats cheaper, so that makes the pay back take longer.
Here, the summer gas bill is under $20, which includes hot water and
some gas grilling. What you're saving is mostly the standby cost,
of the $20, that can't be all that much. Even if it's half, $10 x
12 months = $120. And I just have a basic water heater, for a couple
hundred more you can get higher efficiency too. Running gas, the cost
of the unit, it's a lot to pay back.

+1

My well water temperature is 48F.

I can't imagine what it would feel like to be taking a nice hot morning shower and all of a sudden the libtard energy-saving tankless water heater quits working.Â* Suddenly I'd be standing in a stream of 48F water trying to rinse the shampoo out of my
hair. No thanks, I'll keep 50 gallon tank type water heater.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 14:38:01 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 11:08:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 1:44:06 PM UTC-4, Mistert wrote:
replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live here
retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200 not 300 amp svce.
and we never have 2 showers at once just a load of clothes. Do I have to add
more elect'l service?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-104380-.htm

It's 36KW, so it needs 150A. With 200A, you only have 50A left for everything
else. So, what are the other significant loads? AC? Electric ovens?
Cooktop? Dryer? Add it up and you'll have your answer. Even one of
those other loads and you're close to the limit. I think for
most people, tankless makes no sense, for a variety of reasons. Starting
with that I don't believe the operating cost savings justify the larger
upfront costs. The essential difference is you're eliminating the standby
losses of a tank type. Electric tank you can buy one of those extra
insulation blankets and pretty much totally enclose it in more insulation
which will reduce the losses.

He might want to think about downsizing the heater to 24KW,
understanding that that might limit the hot water he can use at any
one time. The things that will end up competing will be an electric
range and the dryer but if you have 100a to work with that might not
be problem 99% of the time. Only having 50 could be problematic.
Without a load calc it is really hard to say what he can do.
I tend to agree with you, tankless water heaters may have a very long
payback time if you don't have natural gas.

Can be a pretty long payback on Natural Gas too if you need to
replace the meter and upsize the high pressure line from the street.
Since gas is cheaper per therm than electricity the payback will be a
lot longer because the cost savings are a lot smaller - even if it's
the same percentage savings.

To the OP, have you looked at what the cost will be to upgrade? You
can probably just put in a 320a "meter main" change the feeder from
there to your existing panel with "4 wire" add a grounding bus or two
and feed the new water heater from the meter main.
You are likely still talking about close to a grand by the time you
are done with the service. It will take a long time to make that back,
just saving the lostr heat from youe existing water heater. Remember
in the winter, there is no lost heat at all if you are running the
furnace.

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 8:29:35 PM UTC-4, Agua Caliente wrote:
On 5/25/2018 6:04 PM, trader_4 wrote:
The payback is even worse if you have natural gas. They suck up gas
like they suck up electricity, so you typically have to run a bigger
gas pipe from some big tap off, maybe even all the way from the
meter. And gas heats cheaper, so that makes the pay back take longer.
Here, the summer gas bill is under $20, which includes hot water and
some gas grilling. What you're saving is mostly the standby cost,
of the $20, that can't be all that much. Even if it's half, $10 x
12 months = $120. And I just have a basic water heater, for a couple
hundred more you can get higher efficiency too. Running gas, the cost
of the unit, it's a lot to pay back.

+1

My well water temperature is 48F.

I can't imagine what it would feel like to be taking a nice hot morning shower and all of a sudden the libtard energy-saving tankless water heater quits working.Â* Suddenly I'd be standing in a stream of 48F water trying to rinse the shampoo out of my
hair. No thanks, I'll keep 50 gallon tank type water heater.

That's true, with a failure on a tank type, you'd get a more gradual
shift that gives you warning. Also, if the power goes out, you have
40 or 50 gallons of hot water that will last for more than a day
if you use it sparingly. I guess some of the tankless gas units
will fire without power, but not the electric, obviously.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 20:07:36 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 25 May 2018 20:35:01 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Fri 25 May 2018 10:44:02a, Mistert told us...

replying to PipeDown, Mistert wrote:
I have a small 1800 sq foot home 2 full bath and 2 old fogies live
here retired and i want to go to the tankless Eco 36 but have 200
not 300 amp svce. and we never have 2 showers at once just a load
of clothes. Do I have to add more elect'l service?


More could have been mentioned about what you have in your home. It
would be better to take a complete invenory of your home's contents
that use electricity than to guess at it.

When we bought our condo (only 1500 sq, ft.)it had a 200 amp panel
(it had already been upgraded from a 100 amp panelsome years before
that). Knowing all of the electrically dependant items in our condo,
we added a second 200 amp panel to handle any possible combination of
electric usage. We have the following:

HE washer and dryer
2 dishwashers
1 electrically operated hot tub
2 Jacuzzi bathtubs
electric range
warming drawer
induction cooktop
2 1300watt microwave oven
numerous countertop appliances
central a/c
central electric furnace
a tankless water heater dedicated to serving our washing machine
The rest of our hot water supplied from a central boiler.
a vast number electronic devices, many of which opeate 24/7
ceiling fans in every room that operate 24/7

an elaborate installation of outdoor lighting
at least 5-6 light fixtures or lamps in each room

That probably doesn't cover everthing, but we never wanted the risk
of tripping a breaker, and never had except for a shorted out
appliance. We had several brown-outs, but that was external to the
panels in our home.

In our case it wa easier and less costly to add a second panel than
to upgrade the existing panel.

We have replaced most of our incandescent light bulbs with LEDs
wherever possible. However, out bathroom light fixtures use
proprietary halogen light bulbs.

Sorry for the long discourse!
So you have 2 meters too?
If not you have a 400 amp service.
To do that here I would need to have another service feed brought in
from the underground transformer vault at a cost of some $8000 -
Whether I went for a 400 amp oor 2 200s - or even to put in a single
200, as my underground feed is only good for 150. (So I upgraded to a
150 amp panel when I replaced my old 100amp fused service entrance
panel)

In the US you are going to have one service with a few very specific
exceptions like a fire pump, different voltage characteristics or a
building so big it is not practical to feed it with one.
That still does not mean you can't have up to 6 service panels tho but
it will all be on one drop or service lateral. They are usually going
to be metered together too unless it is permitted for multiple
dwellings.
You are right that you are limited by the service lateral for buried
services (the "service point" is at the street) but generally a
utility owns an overhead drop so they will replace that for free. That
service point is where the crimps are at the house. You still own the
"service entrance conductors" from there to the meter and from the
meter to the disconnect.
You can see, buried services are far more expensive to upgrade, even
if the pipe is big enough for larger conductors.
Usually, if you have a 2" service lateral conduit, you can go up to
320a without changing the pipe but good luck pulling in three 350
Kcmil copper wires in there if it is a long ways or has more than 2
bends in it. This will also have to be copper. If it dead ends into
the transformer vault in a straight line it might not be horrible.
Start at the house end and feed it through the 90 at the bottom,
preferably before you mount your new panel.

On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:35:06 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 8:29:35 PM UTC-4, Agua Caliente wrote:
On 5/25/2018 6:04 PM, trader_4 wrote:
The payback is even worse if you have natural gas. They suck up gas
like they suck up electricity, so you typically have to run a bigger
gas pipe from some big tap off, maybe even all the way from the
meter. And gas heats cheaper, so that makes the pay back take longer.
Here, the summer gas bill is under $20, which includes hot water and
some gas grilling. What you're saving is mostly the standby cost,
of the $20, that can't be all that much. Even if it's half, $10 x
12 months = $120. And I just have a basic water heater, for a couple
hundred more you can get higher efficiency too. Running gas, the cost
of the unit, it's a lot to pay back.

+1

My well water temperature is 48F.

I can't imagine what it would feel like to be taking a nice hot morning shower and all of a sudden the libtard energy-saving tankless water heater quits working.Â* Suddenly I'd be standing in a stream of 48F water trying to rinse the shampoo out of my
hair. No thanks, I'll keep 50 gallon tank type water heater.

That's true, with a failure on a tank type, you'd get a more gradual
shift that gives you warning. Also, if the power goes out, you have
40 or 50 gallons of hot water that will last for more than a day
if you use it sparingly. I guess some of the tankless gas units
will fire without power, but not the electric, obviously.

I am not sure I have seen one without an electric igniter. I suppose
you could run the igniter off of a small inverter and a battery tho.
Back in the olden days we had pilot lights and no electrical hook up
at all for the range and the water heater. Life was simpler but the
eco-nazis decided that was wasting gas.

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 12:27:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:35:06 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 8:29:35 PM UTC-4, Agua Caliente wrote:
On 5/25/2018 6:04 PM, trader_4 wrote:
The payback is even worse if you have natural gas. They suck up gas
like they suck up electricity, so you typically have to run a bigger
gas pipe from some big tap off, maybe even all the way from the
meter. And gas heats cheaper, so that makes the pay back take longer.

On 5/25/18 1:43 PM, BurfordTJustice wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...

Quote exactly the part that brags?

Since you are a known far left lying loon with zero Credibility,
lets see the bragging part.






"trader_4" wrote in message
...
: On Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 11:41:34 AM UTC-4, BurfordTJustice wrote:
: Just bomb the fat **** off the face of the earth.
:
: White House pulls out of summit with North Korea's Kim Jong Un
:
: And about this, you're bragging?



Trying to change the subject makes you a luzer.

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 11:27:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2018 17:35:06 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 8:29:35 PM UTC-4, Agua Caliente wrote:
On 5/25/2018 6:04 PM, trader_4 wrote:
The payback is even worse if you have natural gas. They suck up gas
like they suck up electricity, so you typically have to run a bigger
gas pipe from some big tap off, maybe even all the way from the
meter. And gas heats cheaper, so that makes the pay back take longer.

On Saturday, April 8, 2006 at 2:01:22 AM UTC+5:30, Sanj wrote:
My homebuilder says upgrading my electric service to 300 or even 400 Amps
will result in more "efficient" use of electricity by my appliances. Can one
of you experts out there please explain how this is so?

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